Monday, April 21, 2025

Clothing – Modern permitted?

Igros Moshe (YD I #81) Question Concerning  modern clothing in which there is no difference in America between Jewish and non Jewish clothing. Does a person coming from Poland which has distinctive Jewish clothing and his children born in America have an obligation to wear the clothing that was worn in Poland because of the prohibition of wearing non Jewish clothing? What if the father already has changed to modern clothing even though that was prohibited? The universal practice is to wear modern clothing, even very pious individuals. Is this permitted?Answer The Maharik says that there is not any obligation to wear different clothing than non Jews unless their clothing is immodest or arrogant.  Similarly it is prohibited if the modern clothing is worn soley in order to appear more like non Jews or there is a concern for idolatry. .  This is also the view of the Remah. The Maharik indicates it is permitted even for the slightest benefit or honor That is why doctors typically wear a special garment and it is not consider prohibited as a non Jewish garmemt since there is a benefit. In conclusion there is not the slightest prohibition wearing normal contemporary clothing in America. . Furthermore who says that the Non Jews wore these garments originally and only later were they worn by Jews? Perhaps initially everyonre wore them and thus even the Gra would permit them and it would be permitted also for those that came from Poland as they would not be considered non Jewish clothing

16 comments :

  1. Why are modern cars, modern watches, modern glasses, modern toothbrushes and toothpaste, carpets, furniture, lighting, toasters, etc permitted?

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  2. The Yeshiva world wore colored shirts, not always jackets, tan (white) hats if any. Yes, I mean Telz, Slabodka, etc.) And shaving was mandatory. An exception was made for Chassidim, and those who married into the RYs family (since those would be future RYs.)

    Some stuff in Torah Vadaat started going to the Malach in the Bronx and stared growing beards and chassidishe malbushim. Rav Yaakov put a stop to this. Some left the Yeshiva for the Malach (Weberman, etc) and some comformed.

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    1. Which brings me to another point.
      When did this punk trend of shaving their heads begin in yeshivas , even Lithuanian?
      It's quite scary to see men shaving their heads like skinheads.
      It used to be big rabbis had long hair - the rogatchover, Rav Hutner, (those who weren't bald)

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    2. My understanding is that growing one's hair is a women's thing to do so therefore they shave themselves bald except for the peyos.

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    3. Well, the women may also shave their hair, and then wear a wig. The question is whether the wig is real hair from Idol worship, or only synthetic.

      Story:
      Rabbi X said that there are some people who shave their wives hair, to make them unattractive to their husbands.

      Rabbi Y gave a different reason, so I said what about rabbi X? He tells me no, you misunderstood.

      So I went back to rabbi X and he confirmed what I heard him say.

      From this I concluded that Y is a lying jackass.

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    4. It's not that. He's not intentionally lying. In his mind, since he's right and accepting that X said such a thing would make X a heretic, he instead alters reality because it's more important that he not think of X as a heretic.

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    5. More likely that accepting what X says would disprove his own belief that there's nothing demeaning to kavod habrit in hareidi orthodoxy.

      Like the other story, I read an interview with Rav Meir Lau (the father) when he was chief rabbi in the 90s, he said he studied in ponovezh and Rav shach was his Rebbe, as was the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

      When I mentioned this to a Chabad guy, he was in total denial that their man could be a ponovezh guy.
      It's always " no you are mistaken / you misunderstood!"

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    6. It's part of their "In order for me to be right, you have to be wrong" philosophy.

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    7. That's how I reached the conclusion that they are wrong most of the time

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    8. I get the basic psychology of it. Bottom line: One God means one Torah means one set of rules. If you're doing something differently than me, how can we both be right? (Yeah, yeah, eilu v'eilu but no one actually believes that)
      There's also the self-doubt part - if walking around on a hot summer day in a white polo shirt and cotton pants is fine, then why am I decked out in a fur hat and thick black coat? Am I nuts?

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    9. The psychology is perhaps as follows. A sandwich bar concession needs basic training and a uniform of the overall brand. But there is little supervision from head office, and the local operator feels like he's the big boss
      But how skilled he is, and whether his sandwiches match the quality of the main branch
      Are random. Plus these small concessions deal with a lot of customers who know no better. How would someone in London know how the actual sandwiches in NYC are made?

      It takes 3 or 4 years for the average guy to get a semicha. Probably 5 to get a black belt in karate.
      Does every karate guy know how to fight like Chuck Norris?
      Are they as scrupulous as a grand master?

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    10. There is a difference between a karate master and a guy with semicha. The guy with semicha dedicated 4 years of his life, day and night, to learning. Most guys who do karate do it after work and in their spare time.
      One problem I wrote about on my blog ages ago is the conflation of Torah knowledge and holiness. Rabbi X must be a decent, holy individual because he knows so much Torah. This is a false conflation. Rabbi X knows so much Torah because he studies it all day but he still could be a total SOB when it comes to interpersonal affairs but he's given a free pass because of that Torah knowledge.

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    11. Yes, and it's limited Torah knowledge.
      They only learn certain parts of shulchan aruch for semicha.
      There was a Rav in Israel who cheated on his exams, and still became chief rabbi

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  3. Given that even our most Talibanesque do not dress like Mesopotamians did 3500 years ago, it is clear that clothing styles can evolve. Even the "alte heim" garments were an innovation only a couple of centuries ago.

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  4. Don't many chassiduts require their women to shave their hair chatzitzah in tvillah, I believe. Or Chumrah in exposing hair.
    (Chumrah in chatzitzah of tfillin for men, too. Of course, that's a

    By the way, shaving mens hair is a Chumrah in chatzitzah for tfillin. If course, that's a chukas hagoy. Dating to 15 - 16 century Polish goyim.

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    1. Chatziza teffilin? What a joke
      So shave their arms as well?

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