Monday, February 10, 2025

Diasagreeing with Chazal

Ohr HaChaim (Bereishis 1:1): You should know that we have permission to explain the implication of the verses after careful study - even though our conclusions differ from the explanation of our Sages. That is because there are 70 faces to Torah (Bamidbar Rabbah 13:16). There is no prohibition against differing from the words of our Sages except if it changes the Halacha. Similarly, we find that even though the Amoraim did not have the right to disagree with Tannaim in halachic matters - but we find that they offered alternative explanations to verses. 

Ohr HaChaim (Bereishis 46:8): Don’t be bothered by the fact that our explanation is the opposite of what our Sages stated. We have already asserted that concerning the understanding of the non halachic verses of the Torah permission is given to the diligent student to innovate.

Ohr HaChaim (Devarim 32:1): Even though I am explaining this differently than our Sages but we know that there are 70 faces to Torah (Bamidbar Rabbah 13:16). Concerning Agada it is permitted to offer explanations even if they contradict those of our Sages as long as they don’t contradict the Halacha….

Ohr HaChaim (Vayikra 26:3): Vayikra Rabbah (22:1) states that Scripture, Mishna, Halacha, Talmud, Tosefta, Agada and even what a faithful student would say in the future - were all taught to Moshe on Sinai. It is clear from this medrash that permission has been granted for Torah scholars to explain and interpret in various ways and for the diligent students to provide new insights in expounding verses - to the degree that it can be justified with the verse. 

Ramban (Bereishis 8:4): The Ark came to rest in the 7th month on the 17th day of the month… - Rashi writes that we learn from this verse that the Ark was submerged in the water to a depth of 11 amos according the calculations that he wrote in his commentary. This is also stated in Bereishis Rabbah (33:7). However, since Rashi in various places minutely analyzes medrashim and toils to explain the plain meaning of the verses - he grants us the right to also do it. That is because there are 70 faces to the Torah and also many medrashim contain disagreements between the Sages. Therefore, I claim that this calculation is incompatible with the language of the verse.

Vayikra Rabbah (22:1). Torah, Mishna, Halacha, Talmud, Tosefta, Agada, and even what a faithful disciple would say in the future were taught to Moses on Sinai… 

Yaavetz (1:108): I am upset with Rishonim such as the Radak and other pursuers of the simple meaning of the text (rodfei hapshat) whose lust for the surface understanding causes them to swallow it without proper preparation and without proper cooking. Many times, we see that they have arrogantly rejected the views of our Sages for their own understanding based on the simple meaning of the text. Here also in this case they don’t accept the traditions of our Sages in understanding the nature of the altar of the Temple…

Rambam (Teshuva 3:5):… There are three types of deniers of the Torah. 1) One who says that the Torah is not from G d. Even if he says even one verse or word was written by Moshe on his own – he is a denier of the Torah. 2) And similarly if he denies the explanation i.e., the Oral Torah or he contradicts the transmitters of the Oral Torah such as Tzadok and Boesus did. 3) If he says that G d substituted one mitzvah for another or that some aspect of Torah has been abrogated even though he acknowledges the Torah is from G¬ d such as the Hagarites. 

Ksav V’HaKabbala (Shemos 12:40): … Ramban was not pleased with the approach of Seder Olam and he found a different way of understanding the 430 years. However anyone who reads realizes that his approach is quite forced. The Ramban has already criticized Ibn Ezra’s approach and the view of the Abarbanel is worthless. Most commentators give forced explanations to explain the five years which apparently were added to the 400 years that G d had talked about at the Bris ben HaBesarim. The Rosh (Baal Maasi HaShem) also did… His words have no basis…Consequently we have no explanation to rely on other than that of the Talmudic Sages. Furthermore the wording of the text fits in better with their explanation than the alternatives and there is no need for any additions.

Maharal (Shemos 12:40.68):… The fact is that the Bris bein HaBesarim was before according to our Sages. I have gone into great length in this matter because there are those who think they are smarter than our Sages and reject their views and raise questions against them and say that the decree was 5 years before leaving Charan. However the words of our Sages are correct and we should accept their understanding. If you look into the matter you will find that their view is one solidly based on the truth and there is no need to belabor the point. However I am astounded by the Ramban because he is bothered by the 30 additional years here and he doesn’t want to say the decree was 5 years before…The basic point is that we should not deviate from the views of our Sages because their views are substantive and they are correct and there is no doubt about this to those who investigate and understand the words of the Sages.

Ramban(Shemos (12:40): Now the time that the Jews lived in Egypt was 430 years. … “When you calculate the 400 years from the birth of Yitzchok you will find that from the time they entered Egypt until the time they left was 210 years.” This is the view of Rashi and it is also the view of our Sages (Mechilta). However this view is not completely accurate. In fact it is clear from the verse (Bereishis 12:14) that Avraham was 75 years old when he left Charan and the Bris bein HaBesarim took place a long time after that. Therefore we need to explain events according to what has been taught in Sefer Olam…. 

Rashi (Kesubos 57a): There are two types of disputes. Where the argument is over what had been said by someone else, it is impossible that two opposite opinions can both be correct and therefore at least one must be false. However, when they differ in terms of logical analysis than the fact that only one opinion is the Halacha does not mean that the second opinion is false. Eilu V’Eilu means that the second opinion can be valid somewhere else because with even slight changes the situation can be reversed. However, both opposing opinions are not valid for the present situation.

Maharal (Be’er HaGolah #6): A book came into our hands that was written by one of our people. When it was brought to me, they told me that it contains new insights. When I saw it, I rejoiced at the opportunity - as a bridegroom meeting his bride. However, when I started reading it, my heart was torn and I became severely depressed. I cried out: “Woe are my eyes that saw such material and woe to my ears which heard such things. Cursed is the day that such words were revealed in the world.” The man who wrote this book did not understand the words of the Sages - not even one minor thing and surely the great things. He obviously was incapable of grasping their profound discussions. How could it be that he did not fear to speak about the Sages? In fact, he spoke about them as if they were his peers - men of his generations and his colleagues. Such a thing has never occurred before amongst Jews until this generation. One only has to look carefully at the past and how people spoke. One will find that the Amoraim did not dispute their predecessors the Tanaim. Similarly, we find those after the Amoraim did not dispute them. This was because each period recognized themselves their value relative to their predecessors and the predecessors were close to the level of the prophets. However, now in this lowly generation which is lowly and missing all wisdom, there arises one who dares to speak against the holy ones who preceded him by more than a thousand years and he proclaims 'look at my approach and wisdom'. And in addition he brings proof and support to his position from the works of the Kasdim [Babylonians] and the Christians while in contrast he treats the words of the holy and authentic Sages as fraudulent and nonsense. Even worse, he actually published his views to publicize these things which in fact are more appropriately burned like the works of heretics and magic. In fact, his opinions are even worse than the latter but he printed them as if they were sacred works...

Rambam (Introduction to Mishna Torah):… We are obligated to accept and observe all that which is found in the Babylonian Talmud and each city and land can force its residents to conduct themselves in according with the practices as well as the decrees of the Talmudic sages. That is because they have been fully accepted by the Jewish people. Furthermore these sages who made decrees or prohibition or practices or decided laws or learned the meaning of the Torah – constituted all of the sages of Israel or most of them at the time. They are the ones who heard the Tradition of the essence of the entire Torah – generation after generation – all the way back to Moshe. 

8 comments :

  1. The Sages (horayot) say that we can disagree with the Sages
    Therefore, if a rishon or acharon says that we cannot disagree with them, he is in fact the one who disagrees with them.

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    1. The Jerusalem Talmud, Horayot 1,1 explains:

      “You would think that if they [the rabbis] said to you concerning right that it is left and concerning left that it is right you should obey them, therefore the Torah tells you to go right and left: if they tell you concerning right that it is right and concerning left that it is left [then you obey them, but not if they tell you that right is left].”

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  2. Not everybody is entitled to disagree,only somebody who is on level like Ben Azzai
    How about it KA

    While the thrust might be fair enough [unter der Tish though] the way the Ohr Hachaim put it may be part of background of how come R' Chaim Shmltz would vociferously shatter his explanations to shards

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    1. it's not about "entitlement"
      or "level"
      In actual Biblical history, the Neviim were always fighting Avodah zarah, for example. So you don't need to be on the level of a Navi to accept Eliyahu and reject Baal.
      Btw, sex abusers use your type of brainwashing argument.

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    2. If I remember correctly, the ban on disagreeing with Chazal is for halakhic issues. For aggadic issues, if you can prove a different way to understand the text then you get to.
      Because otherwise we live on a giant disc covered in a transparent dome with two doors in it for sunrise and sunset and if you disagree, that's heresy.

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    3. It is about semantics of what we mean by disagreeing.
      As I have previously said, the Rambam brings in his introduction to the commentary on the mishnah - that sometimes a single sage will bring an argument so clear that the majority will agree with him.
      In theory, a Sanhedrin can err, even with avodah Zarah. So the mishnah discusses when are you protected by following them? If you know they are wrong, you don't get to absolve yourself with a shogeg.sacrifice.
      When did chazal begin to exist?
      Only at the time of the Sadducees?
      Or in the 1st temple era?
      If there was a Sanhedrin then, the neviim took aim at them, so who do you follow?

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    4. Oh, the 1st temple Sanhedrin was using Greek language before the Greek empire and use of synhedrion in Macedonia.. Alexander must have learnt Greek from chazal.

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