https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism
Moses and Monotheism shocked many of its readers because of Freud's suggestion that Moses was actually born into an Egyptian household, rather than being born as a Hebrew slave and merely raised in the Egyptian royal household as a ward (as recounted in the Book of Exodus).[4][5] Freud proposed that Moses had been a priest of Akhenaten who fled Egypt after the pharaoh's death and perpetuated monotheism through a different religion,[6] and that he was murdered by his followers, who then via reaction formation revered him and became irrevocably committed to the monotheistic idea he represented.[1]
KA please provide Torah sources for your hero
who cares what the discredited freud once said
ReplyDeleteKA cares very much
DeleteThank you
DeleteWhen did I say we must accept every word of his?
Some of his claims can find a Torah parallel. In fact the pasuk in devarim states that Moshe attributed his punishment to his people rather than his own error in striking the rock - this issue never gets much discussion.
Where Freud is wrong or heretical we reject his false claims.
You are simply beating a dead horse!
DeleteYour concern with his honor and parallels in the Torah literature seems the result of your ignorance of who he was, how absurd are many of his theories and the tremendous failure to validate his theories and/treatment in addition there is widespread rejection in the field of psychotherapy. In short as noted before he and his ideas are viewed as discredited,
Why are you at all concerned that Freud be recognized for anything? There is probably not a single human who ever lived that didn't say somethings which were true or have parallels in the Torah literature.
DeleteYour second point _ much of the Torah and science literature is along the same lines, eg the big bang, suddenly there is a meeting of science and Torah, although Breishit isn't about the big bang. Same with explaining evolution.
DeleteRegarding his honour , no I mock some of his writings too. However, people may deny the subconscious or otherwise point out he didn't invent it. But there is a subconscious, and some memories and processes occur there. No method works for everything. Cbt doesn't work, drugs don't work, nor does cocaine. How many people died from COVID vaccine? Is fauci a fraud for funding gain of function research?
DeletePhilosophy of science is an art itself not a science.
I apologize if I am not as knowledgeable as all of you on this but I heard from my Rebbeim that Freud likely learned the ikkar of his psychoanalysis (ie that s*x is pretty much the focus of all thoughts and motivation) from the Gemora which of course posits that the Torah is the antidote, which he left out necessarily
DeleteOur host is using the argument that everyone has at some time said what is found in the Gemara.
DeleteBut I think he's mistaken. Rambam would look to Aristotle and Plato and see which arguments of either were in line with the Tora and which aren't.
Mr. Baltimore, without a fuller quote ur statement is incoherent. Are u saying that because the gemara mentions a generality that we have a Yetzer Hara that all the nuances of Freud are really stolen from that one line of Talmud? Pretty ridiculous, no?! As usual, when someone cites his "Rabeiim" as a source it will be followed by a an unfounded and unsubstantiated claim. Thank Hashem for "Mesorah."
DeletePlenty of Freud in the Gemara. Someone who questions another Jew's lineage, is himself suspected of strange lineage. This describes the Projection defense mechanism.
DeleteAre you claiming Freud discovered projection?. He obviously discovered breathing and speech?!
DeleteKA you need to show that the gemara and other sources use the concept the way Freud' did as an ego defense method and not just an assumption that all people think the same. I don't think Freud's theories have been supported even though the term is commonly used but not as Freud proposed. In sum. you are making a serious error by not knowing what you are talking about!
DeleteIn Rav Yosi Soloveitchik of the old cities Sefer, he writes that his father, Rav Aron Soloveitchik used to read Freud as a teenager much to his father, Rav Moshe Soloveitchiks dismay (rav Moshe read some of Freuds writings published in the newspaper). However, he once told his father Freuds psycho analysis of King Solomons wisdom in ruling to split the child to which Rav Moshe responded, "accept the truth from where you find it."
DeleteThat said, because the Torah is true and speaks in moral generalities, as Rabbi Daas Torah said, it would be highly unlikely not to find a "parallel" in the Talmud. Issue is that even when their "on to" the truth it doesn't mean (and in Freuds case it is not) the full truth.
You seem to neglect the development of scientific theories in general, and psychological ones in particular. As far as i am aware, the Gemara makes an observation, or a presumption that a person who throws around accusations of a pgam lineage is to be suspected himself of that very flaw. I do not know whether the commentaries delve further into the mechanism of this phenomenon. Although it makes sense (from our perspective at least) that Chazal were aware that this is a kind of cover for a person's own flaws.
DeleteFreud has developed this idea further, and gives a mechanism - i am not referring to "defence mechanism" rather the stepwise process in which this behaviour takes place, from its source and generation to outcome.
A reminder of that brilliant Teshuva of Rema (#11): - where it is permitted to slander a saintly man , to resolve tensions in the community - is a collective defence mechanism, likely displacement/projection.
You insist on using the term Projection as it is commonly used and not in the Freudian sense of a defense mechanism that doesnt give any honor to Freud.
DeleteIt's good to get deeper into the theory
Deletehttps://fastercapital.com/content/Projection--Analyzing-Freudian-Motivation-Theory.html#Theoretical-Basis-of-Projection-in-Freudian-Theory
He starts with the unconscious and conflicts, whereas the common usage only sees the last part
Lubavitcher rebbe went to Fraud (Freudian slip) for help with depression. Lubavitcher rebbe can be considered a Torah source or sorts.
ReplyDeleteDid he claim Freud cured his problem?
DeleteThis is one account of the Rebbe Rshab's meeting with Freud
DeleteThen compares Chassidus to Psychoanalysis
http://www.jhberke.co.uk/articles/Freud_Lub_Rebbe.html
There is nothing there!
DeleteExactly, Freud was the best at that time. The Lubavitcher Rebbe going to him means nothing to today's science unless, as our venerable host pointed out, Freud was successful.
DeleteActually he was not the best of his time, He never actually cured anybody of anything significant. He simply developed a cult.
DeleteInteresting. Why is he credited with discovering the subconscious?
DeleteI can see it on my treif phone, it's a UK website, I wonder if you have an internet filter. I will bli neder copy and paste from my big computer
Deletehttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/12519653_Sigmund_Freud_and_the_Lubavitcher_Rebbe
Delete