Finally we have an acknowledgment that a person who is said to be a spiritual leader is actually at a low MADREIGA.
I know that many will claim that this is Breslev etc. but the truth is that elsewhere there are many so called manhigim who are be the worst of their own crowds
There were public anouncment regarding Mondrowitz. You might also remember the case of Pogorw where the beis din issued a public announcement. However Berland is not your typical case. He is a charismatic leader who is still roaming free and therefore is still a significant threat.
I still remember reading an article in Mishpacha or Ami, I forget which, before the scandal came to light, describing how Berland learnt for 18 hours a day, and had a chavrusa with R Chaim Kanievsky.
There was no acknowledgement in that case, only that the woman is married. The person remained good and 'trustworthy' see the letter by Rabbi Steinman about the hacnosas sefer torah.
In short if the little guy will not demand transparency and accountability from GEDOLIM we will get more and more criminals at the highest ranks.
The point I was making is that RSK has not paid the personal price that he should have done. The HACNOSES SEFER TORAH was explicitely to give him the personal CHIZUCK that he so badly needed. The letter by Rabbi Steinman was part of it.
By the time they came out against M and P they were years out of teaching or counseling (because no one wanted to hire them / recommend them) but there was no public declaration. Though both were still looking for freelance jobs (and P had a 501c3 which apparently was a good income; it seems B has similar fundraising abilities, even with his now public problems; perhaps breslov is only going public cause its affecting their fundraising.)
Har Nof is that dude that we can't mention here cause he might sue (the one who Rabbi Horowitz is campaigning against). Mondrowitz lives in that area near the machanei yehuda shuk
another one. turns out there are a number of them there. anyway, you're right. wrong lowlife. though I understand this one is in the pokey in johanessburg, awaiting . . . 2. I edited out my comment, in deference.
Your question is based on the assumption that this letter was issued as a genuine warning to the public. As the same evidence existed for some time this would have been done years ago.
The letter (in my opinion) was issued because at this stage the man will appear in court and the evidence will be even more in the public domain, these Rabonim are trying to make the point that their communities have nothing to do with this sort of things.
Here too, I was wondering lately, is this a reason I should stop learning his talmid's (Rav Arush) seforim? True, Rav Arush has a chezkas kashrus, but he still learnt by him. Straight away: heterim I can also find, just wondering what is DA'AS TORAH. ....
There's a long letter out supposedly written and signed by Rav Yaakov Meir Shechter saying that this one is a forgery. Which one is authentic? I find it unusual here that they called out his followers and said to distance ourselves from them as well. On the other hand, the long letter is busy with machlokes, which becomes irrelevant when people are unrepentantly misrepresenting the Torah.
Does anyone have any information about which one is real?
Most people don't understand Rav Berland or know who he is. Regarding the extradition proceedings in South Africa we were privy to see the weak case against him. The frum lawyer who represented him, Mr. M.K...p., is a very respectable important member of the Hareidi community and in his words - it is not often that you see such a weak case put forward. The main claims made about him stem from people who have a family history of mental disease.
If you know the Rav from the press then you dont know him. After having been exposed to the Rav, you understand that he is a malach Elokim. I know that it is the in thing to "expose" rabbonim who allegedly are sex offenders, but in this case it is worse than lashon hara - it is motzi shem ra. Such an aveira on a gadol is very severe. Writing that the Rav is "still a significant threat" just shows how low we can sink - sickening. A malach Elokim of over 80 years old is "still a significant threat". I am sure that you all know the procedure for teshuva from lashon hara - now you dont need to travel to SA to ask for mechila.
Are these senior rabbis (who i have never heard of before) your role models ? Is one of them your rov ? If yes, then I understand your view. If not, it sounds like the person who went to his rov and said: This is my question & this is the answer I want - if so which rov should I ask.
Sorry that you have never heard about them before . It simply indicates you don't know to much about what is going on. These senior rabbis know what is going on in the Breslov world. If they feel a need to issue the statement that they have it is evident that Berland is very problematic.
There is a lot of politics in Breslov & one needs to understand the statement of these rabbis in this context. I however do know the well-known Rav Grossman from Migdal HaEmek who has no connection to any politics, who only 2 months ago refers to Rav Berland as a tzadik, kadosh & oved Hashem. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYW972f2hf4 Rav Grossman does not fly twice to chutz laaretz to help a sex-offender and call such a person by such names. Rav Grossman is not naieve either.
It is sad to see people justifying lashon hara & motzi shem rah on such a weak basis.
Uas, i Don't know who you are, but you do seem to raise some issues. Although I don't know much about Rav Berland, I have heard a very impressive uvda about his Avodah on bitachon while crossing the Jordanian border to daven at the kever of Aharon HaKohen, I do remember the popularity that I have seen Rav Berland carry with his following, when I have seen him almost 10 years ago in Uman, I know one powerful talmid who he put forth, Rav Sholom Arush, who has impacted the Orthodox Jewish world profusely (and profoundly) in quality and quantity, I also am aware that Rav Yaakov Meir Schechter is also held in very high esteem, to me, I would wait to see who's right...
Finally we have an acknowledgment that a person who is said to be a spiritual leader is actually at a low MADREIGA.
ReplyDeleteI know that many will claim that this is Breslev etc. but the truth is that elsewhere there are many so called manhigim who are be the worst of their own crowds
Does anybody know - is Rabbi SM Kramer related to Chaim Kramer of the Breslov Research Institute?
ReplyDeleteDid the yeshivish world tp ut a similar statement regarding the 'mashgiach'? Or other case?
ReplyDeleteFinally an acknowledgement?? You probably mean aside from the fairly recent get scandal...
ReplyDeleteThere were public anouncment regarding Mondrowitz. You might also remember the case of Pogorw where the beis din issued a public announcement.
ReplyDeleteHowever Berland is not your typical case. He is a charismatic leader who is still roaming free and therefore is still a significant threat.
I still remember reading an article in Mishpacha or Ami, I forget which, before the scandal came to light, describing how Berland learnt for 18 hours a day, and had a chavrusa with R Chaim Kanievsky.
ReplyDeleteThere was no acknowledgement in that case, only that the woman is married. The person remained good and 'trustworthy' see the letter by Rabbi Steinman about the hacnosas sefer torah.
ReplyDeleteIn short if the little guy will not demand transparency and accountability from GEDOLIM we will get more and more criminals at the highest ranks.
Rav Steinman did not pasken in the case in the first place. See my summary of the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt case
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/07/kaminetsky-greenblatt-heter-does-gadol.html
The point I was making is that RSK has not paid the personal price that he should have done. The HACNOSES SEFER TORAH was explicitely to give him the personal CHIZUCK that he so badly needed. The letter by Rabbi Steinman was part of it.
ReplyDeleteMishpacha. They have a knack for writing cover stories on people ten minutes before the scandal hits; it was not the only one.
ReplyDeletetrue
ReplyDelete"roaming free"!?!?!?!
ReplyDeleteBy the time they came out against M and P they were years out of teaching or counseling (because no one wanted to hire them / recommend them) but there was no public declaration. Though both were still looking for freelance jobs (and P had a 501c3 which apparently was a good income; it seems B has similar fundraising abilities, even with his now public problems; perhaps breslov is only going public cause its affecting their fundraising.)
ReplyDeleteYeah. Roaming free in har nof. They can't wont extradite him. Too much politics
ReplyDeleteHar Nof is that dude that we can't mention here cause he might sue (the one who Rabbi Horowitz is campaigning against). Mondrowitz lives in that area near the machanei yehuda shuk
ReplyDeleteplease read what DT wrote
ReplyDeleteanother one. turns out there are a number of them there.
ReplyDeleteanyway, you're right. wrong lowlife. though I understand this one is in the pokey in johanessburg, awaiting . . .
2. I edited out my comment, in deference.
Your question is based on the assumption that this letter was issued as a genuine warning to the public. As the same evidence existed for some time this would have been done years ago.
ReplyDeleteThe letter (in my opinion) was issued because at this stage the man will appear in court and the evidence will be even more in the public domain, these Rabonim are trying to make the point that their communities have nothing to do with this sort of things.
Here too, I was wondering lately, is this a reason I should stop learning his talmid's (Rav Arush) seforim? True, Rav Arush has a chezkas kashrus, but he still learnt by him. Straight away: heterim I can also find, just wondering what is DA'AS TORAH. ....
ReplyDeleteask you rav
ReplyDeleteThere's a long letter out supposedly written and signed by Rav Yaakov Meir Shechter saying that this one is a forgery. Which one is authentic? I find it unusual here that they called out his followers and said to distance ourselves from them as well. On the other hand, the long letter is busy with machlokes, which becomes irrelevant when people are unrepentantly misrepresenting the Torah.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have any information about which one is real?
I thought I'm at the Da'as Torah website! :-)
ReplyDeleteMost people don't understand Rav Berland or know who he is. Regarding the extradition proceedings in South Africa we were privy to see the weak case against him. The frum lawyer who represented him, Mr. M.K...p., is a very respectable important member of the Hareidi community and in his words - it is not often that you see such a weak case put forward. The main claims made about him stem from people who have a family history of mental disease.
ReplyDeleteIf you know the Rav from the press then you dont know him. After having been exposed to the Rav, you understand that he is a malach Elokim. I know that it is the in thing to "expose" rabbonim who allegedly are sex offenders, but in this case it is worse than lashon hara - it is motzi shem ra. Such an aveira on a gadol is very severe. Writing that the Rav is "still a significant threat" just shows how low we can sink - sickening. A malach Elokim of over 80 years old is "still a significant threat". I am sure that you all know the procedure for teshuva from lashon hara - now you dont need to travel to SA to ask for mechila.
when the senior rabbis of Breslov retract their statements against him I will consider your suggestion
ReplyDeleteAre these senior rabbis (who i have never heard of before) your role models ? Is one of them your rov ? If yes, then I understand your view. If not, it sounds like the person who went to his rov and said: This is my question & this is the answer I want - if so which rov should I ask.
ReplyDeleteSorry that you have never heard about them before . It simply indicates you don't know to much about what is going on. These senior rabbis know what is going on in the Breslov world. If they feel a need to issue the statement that they have it is evident that Berland is very problematic.
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of politics in Breslov & one needs to understand the statement of these rabbis in this context. I however do know the well-known Rav Grossman from Migdal HaEmek who has no connection to any politics, who only 2 months ago refers to Rav Berland as a tzadik, kadosh & oved Hashem. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYW972f2hf4
ReplyDeleteRav Grossman does not fly twice to chutz laaretz to help a sex-offender and call such a person by such names. Rav Grossman is not naieve either.
It is sad to see people justifying lashon hara & motzi shem rah on such a weak basis.
Uas, i Don't know who you are, but you do seem to raise some issues. Although I don't know much about Rav Berland, I have heard a very impressive uvda about his Avodah on bitachon while crossing the Jordanian border to daven at the kever of Aharon HaKohen, I do remember the popularity that I have seen Rav Berland carry with his following, when I have seen him almost 10 years ago in Uman, I know one powerful talmid who he put forth, Rav Sholom Arush, who has impacted the Orthodox Jewish world profusely (and profoundly) in quality and quantity, I also am aware that Rav Yaakov Meir Schechter is also held in very high esteem, to me, I would wait to see who's right...
ReplyDelete