Thursday, July 16, 2009

HaRav Sternbuch's statement on riots in Jerusalem


In response to my request for clarification of Rav Sternbuch's views on the current rioting connected with the arrest of a mother suspected child abuser I was authorized to report in his name the following:

He agrees that the rioting is wrong and he condemned the demonstrators are "mushugoyim". He said that it was in fact the duty of the hospital to report their findings to the authorities and thus they acted appropriately. He criticized the talk about boycotting the hospital in retaliation - as making no sense and and in fact being "very self-damaging." He asserted that the real point of contention is not whether this woman is guilty or innocent - but rather the way the police have dealt with her - chaining her hands and feet. If in fact it is true - as the police have claimed - that this woman is mentally ill, she should not have been placed in a cell together with dirty and dangerous criminals.

The reason that he hasn't issued a statement for the street or put up wall posters is simply that he knows he has very little influence on the people that are rioting - since they don't accept his authority. There are other people who in fact wield more influence - but they have yet to be convinced that the police have justification for what they have done. He is doing what he can behind the scenes to end the confrontation.

32 comments :

  1. "If in fact it is true - as the police have claimed - that this woman is mentally ill, she should not have been placed in a cell together with dirty and dangerous criminals."

    This is absolutely correct. But it neglects the fact that she refuses to cooperate with a psychological examination that could indeed change her situation.

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  2. This is absolutely correct. But it neglects the fact that she refuses to cooperate with a psychological examination that could indeed change her situation.

    ===================
    Have you ever dealt with mentally ill people?

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  3. "Have you ever dealt with mentally ill people?"

    I have not. I am not coming at it from that angle, but rather that the police position is well known, that (usually) people are assumed to be mentally fit until proven otherwise.

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  4. R' Eidensohn,

    While it's probably all too true that R' Sternbuch doesn't have any influence on those who are rioting, do you know why none of the gedolim have ever acted to protest the chillul Hashem? If it's true that these people are "mushugoyim," but the public perception is that this is what the Chareidi Jews believe, do we not have some form of macha'ah? Obviously, the newspapers are not the proper place to debate internal issues, but in today's society, how do we prevent several people (or perhaps a major organization) from dictating policy by virtue of the fact that no one can or will publicly oppose them?

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  5. charges against her indicated she had mental health issues - has been repeated in every newspaper article about her.

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  6. perhaps Rav Sternbuch should still speak up, despite the rioters not listening to him. After all, if they riot in the name of the Eida, the Eida has to reject them and the idea that their name is involved, even if they will not listen.

    As long as nobody in the Eida says anything publicly, and doesn't call for it to end, that means the Eida is fine with them being their representatives.

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  7. Are there legal systems that would assume without a medical examination?

    One of the things that bothers me with the protests is how the rioters destroy property that does not belong to them. As a resident of this city, I pay yearly a ridiculous amount of taxes for arnona, which yearly has to replace burnt trash bins, for example. Shouldn't those that set the fires be taken to Beis Din? I can't comprehend a halachic teirutz that would make this destruction allowed.

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  8. Gedaliah said...

    Are there legal systems that would assume without a medical examination?

    One of the things that bothers me with the protests is how the rioters destroy property that does not belong to them. As a resident of this city, I pay yearly a ridiculous amount of taxes for arnona, which yearly has to replace burnt trash bins, for example. Shouldn't those that set the fires be taken to Beis Din? I can't comprehend a halachic teirutz that would make this destruction allowed.
    =======================
    You don't need a medical examination to understand that a woman who has be accused of abusing one of a number of children and who has been reported to have a psychiatric condition should not be treated as a common criminal. The police have access to psychiatrists and especially after one of the motivations for the riots has been their insensitive treatment of her.

    Regarding the burnt trash bins I agree that the arsonists should pay.

    Who is going to take them to beis din? If the police catch them then they should be made to pay for the damage they have done.

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  9. If actions are being done in the name of the Eida Chareidis that are a clear Chilul HaShem, I would think that the Sgan Nasi has a chiyuv to mekadesh Shem Shamayim by speaking up.

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  10. The police had to arrest her even though the suspicion is that of mental illness. They have to do this for procedural reasons. Until she undergoes psychiatric evaluation (which she is apparently refusing and hence prolonging her stay in the Russian compound) she cannot ber arraigned.

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  11. To me it appears that the message coming from various Gedolim is garbled at best. Gadol after Gadol(with the exception of Rabbi Klein) has stated that the secular authorities are to be involved in cases of abuse. Yet in case after case, Kolko, Tendler, Mondwitz, Chen, this one... just to name a few the Rabbinic establishment has been decidedly against involvement by secular authorities. So much so that they have resorted to rioting time and again in Mea Shearim to get their point across. The only difference in this case is that the rioting has also spread to Beit Shemesh. To me this shows that the problem is pandemic and spreading.

    It is nice for R' Sternbuch to denounce the rioting. However it does not seem possible to call the demonstators Mushugoyim. Mushugoyim are people who are out of control. When in fact these people are very much in control. Last night when loud-speakers begain announcing that the Rabbis thought the protests had gone on long enough for that day and everyone should go home, these "mushugoyim" simply dispersed to their homes. Something that can be witnessed starting at the 3:50 mark on this LaDaat video. Considering that I have to cross through the area of rioting to get to and from Yeshiva, as well as to do my shopping, I have seen them first hand.

    Egged refuses to operate the bus lines that travel through those neighborhoods on account of damage taken to their vehicles from stone hurling rioters(something else that can witnessed on the above linked vid). Municipal services have been cut off on account of workers being violently attacked. These are not the actions of but a few. Rather there are thousands taking part.

    Meanwhile not a single Gadol has stepped forward to publicly condemn the riots and violence. Quite honestly the claim of working behind the scenes rings hollow. Without paskilim and with without public denouncements these Rabbis make themselves accomplices to the rioting and violence. I will actually begin to believe that these various Gedolim are against abuse and the rioting when pronouncements are made and paskilim go up stating such.

    If the Eida is against the rioting, which is being done in their name, let them post Paskilim stating such. If other Rabbis are against these things, let them make that known. This is a public relations nightmare for Chareidim, and in truth they have only themselves to blame. If the Rabbis who claim to be supportive of reporting to the police and who claim to be against these riots would make themselves and their positions known. Then then secular press would only be able to point to specific Rabbis who encourage these behaviors. Instead they are all lumped together on account of their silence, silence which is taken both inside the Chareidi world and out, as complicity.

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  12. Dov said...

    If actions are being done in the name of the Eida Chareidis that are a clear Chilul HaShem, I would think that the Sgan Nasi has a chiyuv to mekadesh Shem Shamayim by speaking up.
    ============
    I would assume Rav Sternbuch knows the halacha of tochacha.

    Someone once told me of a conversation he had with Rav Ruderman when he found that Rav Ruderman was very pro Israel and pro Aliyah.
    "Why don't you tell people about your views?"
    "First rule of being a leader is not to tell your followers something they can't accept."

    This is especially true when there are other individuals involved that have power not only over the rioters but also have veteo power against Rav Sternbuch

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  13. "This is especially true when there are other individuals involved that have power not only over the rioters but also have veteo power against Rav Sternbuch"

    Can you please elaborate on that paragraph.

    Thanks

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  14. R' Eidensohn,

    You said: "First rule of being a leader is not to tell your followers something they can't accept."

    Really? They nearly lynched a couple of municipal workers today. Throwing rocks at people or vehicles is nothing less than attempted murder. You shouldn't speak out against that, lest the perps don't listen?

    Anyway, it doesn't matter if they won't accept it. Mekubal's point is that this is the most horrifying Chillul Sheim Shomayim that has been going on, and the Gedolim's near-complete media silence looks like complicity C"V.

    They don't need to speak out mishum tochacha; they need to speak out for the sake of damage control, to do something to reverse this Chillul Hashem. And maybe, just maybe, some of the yeshiva bochurim will think twice before pulling these stunts again.

    How can you complain about the media giving Charedim bad coverage, when the charedi leadership doesn't do anything to publicly dissociate itself from these hooligans, and the best anyone can manage is a bunch of angry counter-accusations against the police/hospital, saying that it's all their fault, not ours?

    This whole affair is so shocking from so many aspects, I am left speechless.

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  15. Anyway, it doesn't matter if they won't accept it. Mekubal's point is that this is the most horrifying Chillul Sheim Shomayim that has been going on, and the Gedolim's near-complete media silence looks like complicity C"V.
    ============
    Agreed

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  16. If the Eida is against the rioting, which is being done in their name, let them post Paskilim stating such. If other Rabbis are against these things, let them make that known
    ===============
    the Eida has not been against the rioting Rav Sternbuch has.

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  17. Joseph said...

    "This is especially true when there are other individuals involved that have power not only over the rioters but also have veteo power against Rav Sternbuch"

    Can you please elaborate on that paragraph.
    ===================
    Rav Sternbuch is not in charge and his opinion is a minority view.

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  18. "the Eida has not been against the rioting Rav Sternbuch has."

    Please, please tell me that that doesn't mean what it seems to mean:

    The Eida Charedis is in favor of these riots, in all their violent glory, including physical attacks on innocent bystanders and vandalism of public property.

    Are we from the same religion?
    Are we learning the same Torah?
    Do we worship the same G-d?

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  19. Daas Torah said... "the Eida has not been against the rioting"

    I don't believe that is correct. They are against the rioting. But in support of the protests.

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  20. Joseph said...

    Daas Torah said... "the Eida has not been against the rioting"

    I don't believe that is correct. They are against the rioting. But in support of the protests.


    They are one and the same. What are called protests in Mea Shearim are called riots by the media. The fact that they are protesting a woman being arrested for attempting to starve her child to death, in itself is a chilul HaShem and violates the written dictates of many many Gedolim. Specifically every Gadol I know of in Israel.

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  21. Joseph, on every site that you comment you have never accepted that any wrong can be perpetuated with the support of 'Rabbanim"!! That is a role-model for 'dan l'kaf zecus' and also a lack of sechel. A delicate balance.


    R. Daas Torah,
    A car with a loudspeaker a quick printer can make Reb Shternbuch's opinion known - try it and see what may/may not result.

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  22. They are one and the same.

    That's your opinion. Not the Gedolim that support it.

    What are called protests in Mea Shearim are called riots by the media.

    The media lies. Nothing new about that.

    The fact that they are protesting a woman being arrested for attempting to starve her child to death

    That's a libel.

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  23. Obviously some Rabbis are for these protests/riots. With thousands of people in the streets burning things and throwing rocks, and screaming about the injustice of protecting an innocent child from abuse, certainly someone somewhere has noticed that these people aren't sitting at their shtenders.

    There are simply two possibilities here, each of which is equally scarey.

    1) That the Gedolim, despite what they write in their teshuvot, really are against protecting children and prosecuting abusers. Thus there is a an actual complicity with these events. Which itself if ever shown to be true would do untold damage to Judaism.

    2) The the Gedolim are truly against these events but somehow we have come to a point that the Gedolim have no actual control over the Chareidi street. This was an opinion fist voiced in the JPOST when the riots occured over the arrest of one of the Modesty Squad. Simply these little Chevras such as Modesty Squads have somehow eroded and stolen the actual power over the Chareidi street.

    Personally I lean toward the second option. The reason being I have heard rumors that R' Yosef and R' Tzedaka have threatned to ban from their Yeshivot anyone who takes part in these riots. My own Yeshiva has done the same. When I asked someone why Paskilim were not printed stating that these various Gedolim oppose the protests, I was told that no one would print them. The printers fear the backlash from the street. Though that does not settle why there have not been media statements.

    Either way we go however, this is giving us a glimpse into the darkness that dwells within the collective soul of our community.

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  24. You ought to trust the Gedolim over what you think or feel is the more correct logic. Lacking that, there is no further purpose in conversing with you about this, as that is the root of where we differ.

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  25. Joseph said...

    They are one and the same.

    That's your opinion. Not the Gedolim that support it.

    You forget, I live there. I see every night as the loud speakers declare that the Rabbis have decided that the protests have gone on long enough for the day, and the people put down their rocks and walk away.

    What are called protests in Mea Shearim are called riots by the media.

    The media lies. Nothing new about that.

    Again from someone safely in the US who has not experienced the reality on the ground this is an amazing statement.

    The fact that they are protesting a woman being arrested for attempting to starve her child to death

    That's a libel.

    Sorry you feel that way. However, a three year old that weighs only 7kg(or for the non-metric) 15.4lbs, that is malnutrition in the extreme. The fact that the child has put on 1.7Kg or 3.75lb in the past two weeks from simply being fed by the doctors, and having his mother prevented from removing his IVs and feeding tubes... that alone shows that the problem was not with the child.

    So yes the reason for the protest/riot is siimply because a woman was arrested for abusing her child. We have seen this before. Kolko, Tendler, Mondowitz, Chen(until the reality of his extremeabuse became known). For each of these abusers we have seen protest/riots.

    The truly sad part is that we lose people over this. Young Yeshiva and Semminary students come here from America with a rosey view of Judaism(because nothing like this would happen in the states) and they see these sorts of things and it sickens them. Having the honor of hosting many of these young people for Hagim and Shbbatot I get to have the pleasure of watching them be turned off and sickened by such actions and inaction on the part of Gedolim. To lose one Jewish soul becuase of things like this is too much... but I can name you five or six.

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  26. Joseph said...

    You ought to trust the Gedolim over what you think or feel is the more correct logic. Lacking that, there is no further purpose in conversing with you about this, as that is the root of where we differ.

    As was well documented in the two documentaries of Menachem Daum, many of the Gedolim opposed fleeing the Nazis in Europe and going to the US. Thus their followers stayed believing that the Gedolim knew best in all situations.

    If we still follow with out questioning we have learned nothing, and we dishonor the millions that died.

    While deference should of course be shown to the Gedolim blind obedience needs to be buried with the ashes of those who died. We are Jews, we are a thinking people, God gave us brains to use them. If you want infallible leaders you are in the wrong religion, that is best left to the Catholics.

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  27. Right. You are less fallible than the Gedolim.

    You obviously believe in quite a few libels, about chareidi laymen as well as Gedolim themselves.

    Like I mentioned, conversation with you is a waste of time.

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  28. "The reason that he hasn't issued a statement for the street or put up wall posters is simply that he knows he has very little influence on the people that are rioting - since they don't accept his authority."

    What he is rosh av beit din of the Eidah Hacharedit in Yerushalyim and the Eidah hacharedit does not listen to him? Perhaps he should resign, if only in protest...

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  29. Maybe someone can explain this to me.
    I hear over and over again: The Gedolim have Daat Torah. The Gedolim have Ruach HaKodesh. Listening to them is like listening to God. Disobeying them is like disobeying God.
    Over and over again. Whenever a non-Chareidi Jew challenges the latest chumra of the week, we're are told: But the Gedolim said so, so you have to!
    So Rav Eliashiv has come out against the riots.
    Rav Sternbuch has come out against the riots.
    And the rioters aren't listening.
    Aren't they Chareidim?

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  30. Joseph,

    You seem to be rather mis-informed as to what constitutes a libel. Recorded speeches of Gedolim for instance telling their people to remain in Europe, because they faced greater danger in the US... this is not libel. It is documented fact. In fact you can hear many of those speeches at the holocaust museum in DC.

    Now if you want to say that what the Doctors and police are saying concerning this severely malnourished child is a libel. That is an actual argument. However, to deny the very recorded words of the Gedolim of previous generations... simply because it is an uncomfortable and inconvenient truth. That is not the Judaism that I know. That is cultic behavior.

    Thus for me today. When the Gedolim recognize a problem, but do not deal with it. Yes I feel I have the right to speak out. To question. To seek clarification. Thus I find that R' Tzedaka and R' Yosef tried to print Paskalim, but the printer refused out of fear of reprisal. Why they have yet to make a media broadcast... I don't know. I anxiously await to see what R' Yosef will say in his weekly Motzei Shabbat broadcast.

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  31. Please urge Rav Shterbuch to publically condemn the rioters. He should do so both in the Eida paper and the public posters. He should also publicallly write that one is mechuyav to inform the authorities when there is alleged abuse such as in this case.
    Of course people listen to him. "Bemakom she'ain ish etc." No one will listen to me. But he can make an impression.

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  32. I heard that Rav Finkel put up a sign in the Mir - handwritten, as I've been told. But also wondering where is the macha - public protest?

    Why the public silence? Does the community not need guidance? expressed clearly and forcefully?

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