Monday, March 30, 2009

Women & funerals: Halacha & minhag?


Bartley Kulp
: Can the moderator of this blog elaborate on this? I am not aware of the halachot of women doing a hesped.

The following rather disrespectful article assumes that the only issue of concern is what a child thinks is appropriate. There are a few other elements involved. 1) the deceased - what is really best for him -spiritually and in the way he is remembered. How is honor and respect shown him/her 2) Family. - what is respectful and sensitive to the feelings of the mourners. These two elements are referred to in halacha has the honor of the living and honor of the dead. So first you need to establish which takes precedent.

3) the community. If the community has a particular way of doing something - whether it is halacha, kabbla or minhag - is it respectful to the niftar to insult them and consequently degrade the respect of the niftar?

The details themselves are complex and vary between communities and even within communities. On a social level - if a person wants the community and especially the Rav to participate - she can not dictate how the ceremony is done. In Yerushalayim the children don't go to funerals. Furthermore the issue of woman in cemeteries is taken very seriously in kabbala. Even the Gra said that he only went to a cemetery once in his life - for his mother - and he was seriously damaged.

Rav Moshe Feinstein says that the main consideration is what brings respect in the eyes of the community to the niftar. Thus he says that even if the mourner does not feel sad - he should act sad. The mourner does not in fact have an obligation to feel sad.

In sum, the mourner is free to do what he/she wants on her own. Without forcing the community and the Rav to witness something they view as an insult to the niftar. She should be aware of what her father would have wanted - and not just what she wants for her personal catharsis. This article assumes that the only thing of importance is what a particular child wants to do to feel better.

It has been noted that it is prohibited to get pleasure from the deceased when it is not for the benefit of the deceased - even feeling good about giving a hesped is in this category.

YNET

Rabbi: Satan dances as women attend funerals

Head of Migdal Haemek's religious council stops woman from lamenting her deceased father. 'He acted like a dictator. Do we live in Iran?' woman's cousin asks

Batya (pseudonym) will not forget the day her father was buried at the Migdal Haemek cemetery. Not only was she forced to deal with a great loss, she was also humiliated at the graveyard when she was prevented from lamenting her father over this grave.

The father was laid to rest at the northern city's municipal cemetery. In addition to family members and acquaintances, the funeral was also attended by rabbis, the mayor and chairman of the city's religious council, Rabbi Yaakov Amar.[...]

Before the funeral procession began, Batya asked to deliver an oration in her father's memory.

"I wrote my father things that sting one's flesh. There are things you don’t say during your life, but you want them heard when bidding farewell," she says.

She went on the stage and said she would like to lament her father, but Rabbi Amar suddenly asked her to get off the podium.

"I was surprised. I looked at him and said, 'What do you mean? I want to say a few words to my father.' But he insisted," she says. "The mayor and other people tried to talk to him, and he replied, 'You are a woman, you mustn't say a word.'

"I tried to grab the microphone back, but he blocked me with his body. I felt I had to fight to say goodbye to my father. I couldn’t believe this was happening to me."

Other family members tried to convince the rabbi, but to no avail. "He acted like a dictator, arguing that she was desecrating the dead and that according to the Halacha (Jewish law) a woman is not allowed to deliver orations," Batya's cousin says.

"Where is that written? What, do we live in Iran? This is a stain on this city's reputation," he says.[...]

10 comments :

  1. Thank you, that was very well said.

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  2. I have attended several levayos in the New York area where a wife, daughter, sister &/or granddaugher have given hespedim. One spoke from behind a mechitza. Are there any specific halachos regarding this?

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  3. tzipschum said...

    I have attended several levayos in the New York area where a wife, daughter, sister &/or granddaugher have given hespedim. One spoke from behind a mechitza. Are there any specific halachos regarding this?
    ==============
    These issues are not clear cut halachos but they are community minhagim.

    The following is a posting of Dr. Aryeh Frimer on the Avodah discussion list
    ===========================
    The prohibition of Women at the Beit haKevarot during a funeral is based on the Zohar VaYakhel sec. 196 (haSatan merakeid...). Shulkhan Arukh Y.D. sec. 359, seif 1 indicates that there are different mihagim about women coming to a funeral; and in seif 2 (based on the above Zohar) writes that one should be careful that women should not come particpate in the fumeral; Shach ad loc. subsec. 2.
    The many communities throughout the world who are Meikel, Rely on the Resp. Beit Lehem Yehuda, sec. 359 - particularly if men and women remain separated.
    The issue is Discussed in Pnei Barukh Chap. 5, Parag. 10, note 32. See also Resp. Mareh haBazak II:94 and III:73. For a discussion of the Resp. material, see at length the excellent review (in Hebrew) of R. Mordechai Avadiel: http://upload.kipa.co.il/media-upload/kulech/kulech6581.DOC
    The issue of a woman giving a hesped, is related to the above as well as to tsniut considerations/sensitivities. I remind everyone of the furor when Rav Mordechai Eliyahu objected to a woman giving a shiur in front of men. The above Zohar seems to maintain that there is a particular problem of Hirhur at a funeral.
    Many stringent Hevra Kadishot will permit women to eulogise after they have left [ - what you do when they are not around is not their responsibility].
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
    Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
    Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL

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  4. Daas Torah
    What are the hanagos/halachas related to America? ('usually' zohar does not play a pivotal role in litvish decision making)

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  5. Dr Frimer wrote

    In the United States, the general custom I observed at religious funerals was to have all family members (male and female) go through the shura together which was made up of men and women. At my first funeral in Israel ca 1974, I noted that the Chevra Kadisha instructed only the men to make a shura for only the male mourners. I asked the head of the Chevra Kadisha and he indicated that that's what is found in Rav Tackatchinsky's Gesher haChaim. Indeed, Rav Tuckachinsky indicates that that was Minhag Eretz Yisrael, but he also notes that women don't go to Funerals at all (Based on a Zohar in Pekudai that the Satan is Meraked). Needless to say, the women mourners of our Anglo Saxon community in Rehovot were very hurt and offended, especially since this is not a halakhic issue and since all knew that the Minhag in the Galut was otherwise.
    I then consulted with Rav Simcha Kook. On the one hand, he didn't want to contravene the Minhag of the Chevra Kadisha; on the other hand, he understood that the women needed the communal Nihum Aveilum. We agreed that the men would make a shura for the men and the women for the women. It took a few times for me to teach the women of our community what to do and what to say, but it now occurs without my intervention. When someone is buried at Eretz haChaim Cemetery near Beit Shemesh, the same happens. The head of the Chevra Kaddisha makes his announcement (Men for men), and - if the family wants it - we make sure there is women's shura for the women.
    At Eretz haChaim Cemetery they also don't have women Eulogizing. I spoke openly with the head of the Chevra Kaddisha and he indicated that after they leave, "we can do as we like." So I arrange for the women to speak at the kever then. Recently, however, I was at a funeral at Eretz haChaim where a daughter did eulogize her father before the Kevurah. I spoke again with the head of the Chevra Kaddisha and he indicated that they prefer that women not Eulogize - but if the family insists they won't make a scene.

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  6. Trouble with some Israelis - automatic reaction is to give offender a black eye. Woman gets up to speak - throw her out! Why not speak quietly to her and suggest she speak afterward as some comments suggested? By some people it doesn't work that way.

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  7. The one issue I didn't see you raise is the shaylah on the lav deoraysa of "kol almanah ve-yasom lo se'anun" -- and of course the next pasuk "im anei se'aneh oso ki im tzaok etzak elai shamoa eshma tza'akaso" -- vehmavin yavin

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  8. anon1 said...

    The one issue I didn't see you raise is the shaylah on the lav deoraysa of "kol almanah ve-yasom lo se'anun" -- and of course the next pasuk "im anei se'aneh oso ki im tzaok etzak elai shamoa eshma tza'akaso" -- vehmavin yavin
    ====================
    The rabbi was not oppressing an orphan but was sincerely doing what he thought was in her best interest.

    According to your logic the din of tochacha doesn't apply to widows, orphans or gerim.

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  9. Daas Torah

    There is a new Charedi blog that I created. It is called briskyeshivish.blogspot

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  10. "Rabbi: Satan dances as women attend funerals" - With all the murder, spousal abuse and child molestation in the world, I think Satan has his hands full with other matters rather than dancing as women attend funerals....

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