Tuesday, March 22, 2022

"Am I still Jewish?!" - personal consequences of mass rejection of conversions

Posted by: Treifalicious | May 03, 2008 at 02:10 AM Done. This decision ensures that I will NEVER return to Israel to live. They probably will revoke my citizenship anyway. As someone who converted through the Beit Din L'Giur in 1999 I am one of those people whose conversion stands to be revoked.(how else could I have converted in Israel? I asked how I can convert to Judaism, they pointed me in the direction of Ulpan Giur. Something like 2000 - 3000 people converted in these Rabbinate-sponsored conversion classes every year. . That's between 18,000 and 27,000 people - marriages annulled, children suddenly not Jewish, people then also losing citizenship and having to leave the country. 18-27,000 lives turned completely upside down) It hasn't really sunk in yet. As someone who sat through these classes in some ways they were a joke - many people were NOT sincere at all. One couple with a guy from South America converting actually put up a CHRISTMAS TREE and drove regularly on Shabbat. I would see women in my class during the day in shorts and tank tops and then later that same day see them in class with long skirts and long sleeved shirts. And these were not people like many of the Russians who treated the whole thing with naked, utter and total contempt. I felt like such a frier for actually overhauling my wardrobe and wearing the long skirts all day every day, keeping kosher and keeping Shabbat. Later on, when asked about conversion by others, I would say, "If you really want to be Jewish you will wear the long skirts and at least try to keep kashrut and Shabbat." I encouraged Orthodox conversion, discouraged Reform conversion and still do to this day. But afterwards, you cannot police people for the rest of their lives. To do so would turn the State of Israel into a fascist police state. Sure, first they have religious police to look after converts, but then they will start policing the general public, making Israel like Saudi Arabia and Iran which DO have religious police (for an idea of how people deal with religious police, see the movie Persopolis and see what happens after the Ayatollah Khomeini takes over. Basically, everyone starts leading double lives. The whole thing becomes a pointless cat-and-mouse-game). In the Jerusalem Post in one of the talkbacks there was one guy who said he would gladly go back to Christianity and wants his foreskin back. I cannot say the same. I can never go back to being a Christian. I had lived as a Jew for some SIX YEARS before I had even started the conversion class. I did not need the class in order to pass the oral exam before the Beit Din. What about the people, like my roommate, myself and others who really were sincere? What if someone was no so into it at first but then became very observant afterwards? Jewish religious observance is fluid over the course of one's life. The only real way to do this would be to go back over every single conversion, all 18-27,000 of them and do some sort of KGB like detective work to try to figure out if they were sincere at the time. But they don't want to do that because they are ultimately a bunch of lazy bureaucrats and prefer to just invalidate every conversion done in Israel over the past 9 years, upending thousands of lives. These rabbis will find themselves in the dustbin of history like the Sadducees in the not so distant future. But in the meantime, if I am not Jewish anymore, who am I?

9 comments :

  1. This is a very candid and revealing personal story that shows what a huge percentage of these alleged "converts" are actually not truly converted.

    Tragically, any sweeping decision injures some innocent along with the many guilty. I hope and expect that the few truly sincere people who have been harmed by this will come forward and have their cases heard individually.

    As for the rest...our nation will benefit greatly from their exit.

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  2. Dear Treifalicious: A little bit you are not making sense because you surely must have a reliable ORTHODOX rabbi and a posek that you go to for teaching, guidance and pesak in all matters of Torah and Halachah. You must also have had a legitimate ORTHODOX Bais Din that converted you and you must be in possession of the shtar geirus, the conversion certificate that they issued you upon successful conversion.

    That is all you need and do not fear what is going on all around you because rabbis are constantly disagreeing with each other.

    Consult the ORTHODOX rabbi whom you should have accepted upon yourself as your Rebbe and no doubt he will reassure you of your status because if a valid Beis Din has certified your geirus, and on that Bais Din there were surely three reliable Dayanim, then you have nothing to worry about as far as what another Beth Din will rule since in the state of Judaism in The Exile, there is no "Sanhedrin" or central Beth Din or "Politbureau-type" body that rules over each and last Jew.

    Therefore if you have remained close with the ORTHODOX rabbi, and hopefully it's more than one, whom you turn to for guidance in all matters of your life, there should be no fear on your part that you have become anything less than you were before any rulings by "Rabbi Sherman's committee" or any such like bodies because, and this needs to be re-emphasized, while other Batei Din and committees are free to come out with their ruling negating the validity of almost anything they like (and they can negate quite a lot, some even negate the right of Israel to exist as a state and some say that Israel should hand over power to Hamas) you are not obligated to have sleepless nights over this as long as you stick with what your ORTHODOX rabbi tells you and that you have had a valid ORTHODOX Bais Din behind you that performed your conversions.

    Finally, crying in the media spotlight does not help and it even casts doubt on your motives and sincerity because the media is EXREMELY biased against Orthodox Judaism (and that is an understatement) and it is doubtful that your ORTHODOX rabbi/s would have advised anyone to complain out loud in pubblic when it's obvious your situation is not as dire as you would make it seem PROVIDED you are in the capable hands of your local competent ORTHODOX rabbi.

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  3. recipents and publicity seems to be living in a world where most people never leave the shtetl. What this decision is leading to is a world in which you can never be sure whether a particular community or a particular rav accepts you as Jewish - not only if you converted, but possibly even if your maternal grandmother converted.

    We're already seeing this in real life - I know of some converts who while accepted in their home community have found it necessary to obtain (and pay for) a gerut l'chumra in order to be able to work for a charedi organization. Who knows if 5 years down the road the beit din which performed the l'chumra will also be considered treif, and the process repeat with a different community or organization.

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  4. I am not sure what "Larry Lenbhoff" means when he accuses me of "living in a world where most people never leave the shtetl" so that makes me very "strict" when lately Jersey Girl has been accusing me of being too liberal towards accepting gerim because I level criticism against the Syrian Takana that excludes Gerim.

    My post here was very specific. It was ONLY directed at the ONE "Treifalicious" post here who bewails that his/her conversion has become invalidated, when it could not be further from the truth for the simple reasons I stated.

    And ALL I stated really, was that if "Treifalicious" was, and as any normal Torah Jew knows, let alone a newby Ger, he/she should a local ORTHODOX rabbi to whom they turn for guidance in such situations (even if its via telehone, and many leading poskim in America are available on the phone, I have consulted them myself!) and who who should be able to reassure "Treifalicious" that he/she need not panic because if the conversion was performed by an ORTHODOX Beth Din then that is the best hechsher, even if other rabbis or Batei Din may not like it. It's like the OU hechsher. Not everyone likes it or relies on it, but it is an acceptd standard for many, if not most, Orthodox Jews, so I don't get what you trying to say here at all.

    Your other points about what Orthodox organizations do or don't require, or what people will think of a Beth Din 15 years down the line are just huge RED HERRING arguments that are just off the mark. These are natural variabals and inponderables that are part of life. It's like asking for "job security" when you sign on to a new job for the first time with great enthususiam and noone can provide it, or if you marry a girl who has great skin but twenty years down the line everything is sagging and who knows if she or you will still love each other.

    Anyhow, a reliable Orthodox rabbi should be a constant, even if you move away or even if the rabb dies, people can always check up, and a kosher Beth Din will be known even if its Dayanim move away, so your last points are not really in the loop or on the up-and-up here.

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  5. RaP or BFKARAP (Blogger formerly known as Recipients and Publicity)

    Treifilicious said:

    "As someone who converted through the Beit Din L'Giur in 1999"

    Can you recommend a more universally accepted authority?

    This woman who is obviously in sincere pain, posted to a blog in which the invalidation of Beit Din L'Giur conversions was the discussion topic du jour.

    I find your response to her pain:

    "crying in the media spotlight does not help and it even casts doubt on your motives and sincerity"

    completely out of context, heartless and cruel.

    I don't have any good answers to give her, but I sure hope that someone out there does because she is crying out for and deserves our empathy and if possible our help.

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  6. Dear R&P

    By "living in a world where no one leaves the shtetl" I mean that however much one may rely on one's rebbe, one might imove to another community, try to apply to a specific yeshivah, or do something else that moves you out from under the sole authority of your rabbi. In that case the ongoing and increasing tendency of the Orthodox to the not recognize one another's conversions will be a problem regardless of your advice.

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  7. Jersey girl says: RaP or BFKARAP (Blogger formerly known as Recipients and Publicity)

    Response: Not funny. Is this a serious discussion or are you going to resort to childish narishkeiten? Grow up please.

    Jersey Girl says: Treifilicious said: "As someone who converted through the Beit Din L'Giur in 1999" Can you recommend a more universally accepted authority?

    Response: ANY reliable Beth Din with known Dayanim mumchim has the power to be megayer. It can even be and ad hoc Beth Din of ANY three outstanding Talmidei Chachomim as far as I know, so who did the giur is immaterial as long as there was one reliable Beth Din then the ger needs to be reassured that they need not worry what other Batei Din or other rabbis will say, just stick with your own local ORTHODOX rabbi and consult a reliable posek if need be and if things are more complex. This kind of thing cannot be "standardized" and there is no "one answer", but as long as the ger is being guided by a reliable ORTHODOX rabbi there is no need for any ger to run to the media and shed copious false tears that are just not required and become highly suspicious if done to just "get symapthy" which is not necessary under these circumstances.

    Jersey Girl says: This woman who is obviously in sincere pain, posted to a blog in which the invalidation of Beit Din L'Giur conversions was the discussion topic du jour.

    Respones: The Beit Din Legiur is VERY reliable so I cannot imagine what she/he was crying about. Sounds like a false alarm or a case of the jitters to me and she/he should be told that all is fine and that she/he can get on with life as a Jew. Try not to get too Clintonesque about "I feel your pain" arguments and see things in a clear rational light. I know it's not easy sometimes, but try.

    Jersey Girl says: I find your response to her pain: "crying in the media spotlight does not help and it even casts doubt on your motives and sincerity" completely out of context, heartless and cruel.

    Response: It is not "heartless and cruel" to guide someone to keep on consulting their ORTHODOX rabbi, which was my main point which you conveniently ignore, and it is most certainly way out of line for a new ger or Baal teshuva to "take their case to the media" when faced by any dilemma or quandary when instead they should be hashing it out with their local ORTHODOX rabbi/s and consulting a posek and there is absolutely nothing "heartless and cruel" about saying that.

    Jersey Girl says: I don't have any good answers to give her, but I sure hope that someone out there does because she is crying out for and deserves our empathy and if possible our help.

    Response: Nonsense. This is a call to get help with a Halachic question and the answer that I gave her based on experince with these type of things is to go talk with and seek help from her/his, presumably reliable, ORTHODOX rabbi. If she/he wants "empathy" -- and don't we all all the time when faced by any sort of life's crisis? -- is to go to her/his mother or pay a therapist to work through the emotionbal pain and the issues of separation and individuation as well as of the anxiety that any newcomer to a new society and way of life would nturally face, not just a ger, but this has nothing to do with the essentially starightforward advice to stick with the ORTHODOX rabbi who is supposed to be there for her/him to answer the HALACHIC (and not "emotional") quandary supposedly presented by this "Treifalicious" which itself is a very odd and suspicious name for someone seeking genuine relief in this type of situation.

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  8. Just get a reform Shtar Giur and call it a day. You are Jewish, there is nothing in Hebrew jurisprudence that gives them to right to annul a conversion.

    דתן בן ישראל האיתן

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  9. How and why can a Posek arrive at a lenient psak? And what other conditions are required of him to do so? (eg acceptance, ideology, belonging to the right or wrong group etc?)

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