Thursday, March 19, 2015

Frum Follies: Why is Lopin obsessed with publishing slander about the seminaries?


Yerachmiel Lopin's latest posting (on his blog Frum Follies) regarding the seminaries contains his normal twisting of the truth. He presents no evidence except for "creative" deductions and his amazing ability to see things between the lines - that simply aren't there. It seems he is obsessed with slandering the seminaries and especially Mrs. Ullman. Along the way he attempts to sling a bit of mud at me - for daring to report the facts and contradict his slander. I hope to publish clear unequivocal evidence in the near future - though I am sure Lopin will refuse to accept it. After all he claims that we still have to be afraid  of the second coming of Meisels who will eventually run the seminaries again unless he keeps guard at the gates of the seminaries.

He seems to feel that he and his peanut gallery that comments on his blog are the last  "guardians of the truth" - now that he claims his former comrades in arms - the Chicago Beis Din have sold out.
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I just received this letter from a parent of a current student - that illustrates how Lopin's obsession works.
Rabbi Eidensohn,

Don't know if you recall, but I e-mailed you several months ago and mentioned that my daughter attends Binas. The purpose of this e-mail, and I am asking you to please not mention my name if you do choose to use the information, is to tell you unequivocally that Mrs. Ullman has been the principal this entire year with no noticeable reduction in duties.  This obviously contradicts what "others" are saying out there.  If you ask the girls who are there, they know nothing of any problems.  Clearly they were aware of the situation when they went as they are 18 and 19 year old girls who are able to understand some of the issues (more than I wish they had to at this point in their lives, but that is another matter).  I periodically ask my daughter if anything has come up this year and she says no.  I ask if Mrs. Ullman is in charge and she says yes.  What that tells me is that if there was a "punishment" it is sure not one that anyone sees and thus would not be effective as such.  And with that being the case, I can take it one step farther to mean that it was not felt that one was needed.

The recent psak you posted did not mention a need for a punishment.  It is only those who want to see the schools destroyed that are insisting that there is one.  Clearly they are wrong.  So much for their inside information.

As an aside, I emailed this information to Lopin without telling him my relationship to the situation.  I simply told him that I was 100% sure of my facts and that I was not faculty nor related to faculty.   He asked to speak with me to discuss and I refused.  I told him that he posts all kinds of information from "sources" and asks his readers to believe it without any sort of proof just based upon who he is.  If he can ask that, then I feel no different giving him information that I am sure is accurate and he can choose to trust me or not.  Not surprisingly, I did not receive a response.

You may do what you want with my information as long as my name is not used with it, but what I am saying is obviously easy to verify by asking any one of 50 girls who are there right now!  I can also tell you that they have been told that 40 girls are signed up for next year already and there is also the possibility of a second year program if there is enough interest.

85 comments :

  1. I am eagerly looking forward to Lopin eating crow next year when the seminaries open up after he's been yelling they'll be closed in bankruptcy after no one will sign up for the following year, and they only have a full house this year since people signed up before the scandal.


    Of course Lopin will explain why the crow he's eating isn't really crow.

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  2. Rabbi Eidensohn,
    When you talk about the CBD suddenly "agreeing" to many things, I think that it's reasonable to say that you're the one saying things that involve "creative deductions." The CBD stands behind the letters they wrote. Indeed, there has been no retraction, and if you'd care to call any of the members of the CBD, they'd tell you the same thing. This is the very reason that I've heard their dissent will be published.

    Touro, as far as I know, has still not approved the seminaries for accreditation. Yet, you continue to write that the CBD now agrees with the IBD. It's just not true.

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  3. Hashem Runs the WorldMarch 20, 2015 at 1:01 AM

    I wouldn't be surprised if, when they open (which they definitely will), he actually maintains they didn't open, and anyone who claims they did open, he (and his commentators) will say are covering up for molestation.

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  4. @Not just a hug - you can't claim that Lopin is right about the CBD and at the same time claim that they haven't changed there position. Or a you accusing Lopin of lying when he claims that they changed their position by signing the joing beis din psak?

    Are you claiming contrary to the CBD that they don't want Touro to accredit the seminaries. How can they psakan that they are safe and yet deny the money which was the reason that they had the money blocked in the first place.

    you either can't read Hebrew or are not aware of the psak issued by the joint beis din last December

    המסקנה היוצאת מכל הנ"ל: ביה"ד קובע חד משמעית כי הלקחים נלמדו,
    ואחרי כל התיקונים והשיפורים שנעשו, אין שום חשש סיכון או מכשול
    . במשלוח בנות ללימודים ולהתחנך בסמינרים אלו 7
    שבעקבות פס"ד חלקי זה (Excelsior) ביה"ד פונה בזה לטורו קולג' ואקסלסיאור
    יפעלו להחזרה מיידית של הקרעדיטס והמימון הממשלתי לסמינרים .

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  5. Touro, as far as I know, has still not approved the seminaries for
    accreditation. Yet, you continue to write that the CBD now agrees with
    the IBD. It's just not true.


    In fact, the psak signed by the CBD explicitly appeals to Touro and Excelsior to restore accreditation. You hear? They are against what Touro is doing. Repeat, against.

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  6. Well, please listen to the impeccable logic.

    The CBD are the most amazing, clear-sighted, incorruptible, "http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-courage-of-their-convictions.html", yashar, yadee, yadee, yadee.



    Please be aware that the CBD are fickle people, who know the truth - but will deny the truth due to pressure. Due to ulterior motives they will sell out the victims, and continue to traffick to fulfill a sick man's desires, yadee, yadee, yadee.


    Impeccable logic, right? No contradiction, right?

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  7. Read what I wrote. I made no reference whatsoever to Lopin wrote. Not one word. I am claiming that the CBD didn't change their position based on my conversations with at least one of the Rabbonim of the CBD. Read all the letters you like and draw vague references. In my mind, the JBD statement is like the pashkevilim on the street, where you need to learn to read between the lines. But a simple phone call could remove any doubt that the CBD hasn't changed their thinking at all. Not one bit.

    Now, you could go ahead and continue to say over and over again that their signature on the JBD statement somehow indicates a new and innovative way of thinking, or you could listen to what the CBD is actually saying to people. Your choice.

    As to the accreditation issue, it's quite simple. If the CBD believed b'lev shaleim that the seminaries were safe, and made it known to Touro, then Touro would likely provide accreditation very quickly. Why haven't they? Must be that the CBD is having an impact on Touro. Or whose other influence could explain Touro not giving in?

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  8. @Not only a hug - you can make up any rules you want - but I don't agree with you. The contradictions of the CBD seem obvious to everyone else - including their major supporter - Lopin. The post was about Lopin BTW.

    Tough that you don't like reading the declaration of the Joint Beis Din as it stands but want to read between the line - first get pshat correct.

    Your refusal to acknowledge that your statement about Touro was flat wrong - is indicative of your comment in general - you simply don't want to accept facts - unless they agree with your preconception.

    in short your pilpul has nothing to do with reality

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  9. To summarize: you would rather believe what's written on a piece of paper than to actually call the CBD members and to see what they really think.

    On this point, I think we can agree to disagree.

    The same goes for Touro. Believe a piece of paper all you like, but conversations with the actual people indicate otherwise.

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  10. @Not Just a Hug - you don't seem to understand that the psak of the Joint Beis Din is not just a paper! That is like calling a diamond - just a rock.

    Your don't seem to grasp the many documented worlds of the CBD or rather your ignore them because they don't support your position.

    At most you are claiming that the CBD would deny or exuse what is clearly written in their psak. If true then that is an additional problem.

    The gold standard of evidence is their written psak You deny that - there really is no more to say.

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  11. Why are girls sleep away seminaries needed at all? They should all be closed down!

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  12. Rabbi Eidensohn,

    Insult me to your heart's content. Question my analysis to your heart's content.

    But don't you owe it to your readers to notice my complete translation of the psak in the lower half of my post: https://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/deciphering-the-latest-joint-rabbinical-court-ruling-on-the-meisels-seminaries-scandal/.

    Don't you think you owe it to your readers to let them know whether my translation is accurate (which I am convinced it is) or not. Don't you want your readers to be able to drill down to the detail of the psak.

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  13. Hashem Runs the WorldMarch 21, 2015 at 10:57 PM

    Great point. And while we're at it, why the need for grocery stores. They should all be closed down!

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  14. @Yerachmiel - I am surprised you missed my comment where I provided a link to your post and translation!

    http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/03/the-hanging-judge-of-sedom-and-his.html#comment-1912025915

    I am not interested in insulting you - just noting that you are adding things which are not in the psak and for which you provide no evidence.

    why don't you respond to the substance of the post that you ignore information which disagrees with your published views - aside from adding comments unsupported by evidence

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  15. Hashem Runs the WorldMarch 22, 2015 at 12:04 AM

    He responded to you on Frum Follies in his usual manner of not addressing the issues but mangling what ever issue is brought to his attention into evidence towards his agenda.

    Rabbi Eidenson.... he's not interested in truth. There is no logic or reason when you talk to Lopin. He doesn't care, By this stage, he has lost all credibility and I mean ALL. He has turned himself and his work into a joke. He has done harm to the war on abuse by showing the world that internet sights who claim to fight abuse are ridiculous and dishonest and filled with emotionally unstable individuals who are just upset about the abuse they went through and couldn't care less about the accuracy of what is being presented.. The only people who take him seriously spend most of there posts fighting over whether or not there is a G-d.

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  16. Lopin: I read your translation. And everything in the psak conforms to exactly what Rabbi Eidensohn has been saying and is saying.

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  17. Why are mavens needed at all? They should all be recycled.

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  18. @yeshsivaguy - you walked in after the final act. The seminaries have instituted major changes staffing and protocol to prevent any future incidents. They had Debbie Gross come in as a consultant and suggest and approve changes etc etc This has been mentioned many times - check the archives.

    The schools are safe and they provide an excellent education

    Bottom

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  19. I have heard many times that there have been "changes", yet it is unclear what those changes are. I have been following, though I keep my comments to a minimum. After an episode such as this one you need a little more than "changes have been made" and "the rest of the staff didn't know anything" to convince people that the seminaries are safe. Lack of negligence should not be enough of a reason to choose a seminary.

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  20. Eidensohn- the teachers have made "changes" huh? It that why members of Magen have SEEN the seminary staff talk at length to Meisles at weddings? And why the teachers have not discouraged girls contacting this predator? (Girls are in touch with him still). Their "change" is more like a fake front to get people to come to the seminaries. Additionally, some of the teachers do not think he even did anything wrong and feel bad for him. Eidenoshn, how do u explain this?

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  21. @yeshivaguy - as I said this has been discussed before. Reb Birnbaum was brought in, Debbie Gross was brought in. Protocols describing the parameters of interestion were clearly laid out regarding the relationship between teacher and student. There is now a vaad of rabbonim who provide overall guidance for any questions regarding these issues. The students are given the phone number of someone to call if they have any question or are uncertain whether about the appropriateenss of intereactions. The open American style culture has been curbed.

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  22. @Truthseeker - if you want to comment on this blog it requires that you force yourself to have elementary derech eretz

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  23. Yet the teachers who were either oblivious or negligent have not been dismissed and have not admitted their mistakes publicly, nor have they issued any apologies. Perhaps you think that they do not deserve to be dismissed because they didn't know about the allegations. Fine. But that doesn't mean that parents will be willing to trust them with their daughters.
    As for truthseeker's comment below, I attempt to post with elementary derech eretz, so perhaps you can answer those same questions for me.
    Also, bringing in Reb. Birnbaum and Debbie Gross is very nice. But again, while this may or may not pull the seminaries out of the mud, it still doesn't sound like a reason to send my daughter to one of the seminaries when the rest of the staff remains the same.

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  24. I have zero respect for you. Sorry. And u have purposely avoided my comments.

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  25. To be straight forward and clear, the teachers have not said anything bad about Meisles bc Meisles is still giving them their PAYCHECKS. The seminaries are yet to be sold. How on earth can you think that the teachers have a clear head in all this when their parnassah is still dependent on that monster?

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  26. @Yeshivaguy - I gather you reject the understanding of the IBD and the CBD and accept that of Frum Follies.

    What teachers were either oblivious or negligent and need to be dismissed? Neither the IBD or CBD is claiming such - why are you?

    Accepting that both the IBD and CBD have declared the seminaires safe and both praise the new measures - on what basis on you saying they are wrong?

    I find it incredible - that you and Lopin as well as Truthseeker - without having the full picture - have no trouble dismissing the judgment of the expanded Beis Din as being corrupt or incompetent or lacking basic honesty.

    I agree that there probably are some parents who will not accept anything other than a dismissal of all the staff etc.- because they don't accept the words of any rabbis. But apparently this is not the typical perspective of frum parents. The seminaries have an excellent reputation and those people who know about chinuch are impressed with the extra mile that the seminaries took in conjuction with the extended beis din, Debbie Gross, Vaad and Reb Birnbaum.

    Most parents instead of reading Frum Follies or my blog will simply ask people who are familiar with the seminaries, their staff and the measures instituted. Most people find that a more assuring answer than demandingthe the schools be destroyed by firing the staff and starting over again - without any strutural change.

    Would you send your daughter to the seminaries if all the staff were fired - but none of the new measures instituted? Would you rely simply on the high degree of responsibility shown by firing all staff that possibly knew what was going on?

    A more detailed answer will have to wait for the publishing of the minority opinions - but it doesn't change the substance of what I just wrote.

    . At this point we are not dealing what what has to be done - but what you would like be done. Obviously many other parents disagree with you.

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  27. @truthseeker - the feeling is mutual. I am not publishing your nasty comments. If you want answers you need to pay the minimal price of asking them in a respectful manner.

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  28. What nasty comments? I believe all I have said to make u upset was proving that the teachers are motivated to "clean up the seminaries" when they have been SEEN by others having conversations with the abuser himself! And the fact that Meisles is still paying them. I have posted nothing nasty. You have yet to say anything back to the above.

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  29. I am not dismissing the judgement. I am just saying that it would take more than exonerating the parties involved to convince me to entrust my daughter to them. From the words of the psak: אך להיפטר מכלום אי אפשר (with respect to binas).
    Just as I wouldn't eat from a restaurant who lost its hechsher and then got it back, I certainly would not send my daughter to a seminary that had lost its חזקת כשרות, even temporarily.
    Sorry, but R' Kahane and Mrs. Ullman have lost my trust, and the only way to get it back will be through their own actions. I'm sure they are very nice people and very good Jews, but they have not displayed the traits that I feel I want my daughter's mentors to have, so I will find other mentors for my daughters.

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  30. @Yeshiva guy - again you are voicing your personal preference - not something which everybody would agree is necessary.

    So given your strong feelings I agree that you should find other mentors for your daughters.

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  31. By the way, I wouldn't require firing the entire staff. It would have been enough for me if the rest of the staff would have stood up against Meisels and sent out the message that "we do not tolerate רשעים in our midst and we hereby distance ourselves from the menuval."
    The proper response for a school to take when one of their staff members is found to be a sexual predator is to fire him and warn the public. The school's response to this debacle is probably the foremost reason I wouldn't send my daughters there.

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  32. @yeshivaguy - your concerns are addressed by Rabbi Shafran

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  33. can you post a link to that?

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  34. the material hasn't been published so I can't post a link

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  35. R' Eidensohn, perhaps you can enlighten us with regard to one point of the pesak. They write that there is no need to determine whether or not the administration at Peninim should have acted differently, because Meisels himself was the principal of that school, so he was the administration. This totally avoids the issue that those who are now in administrative positions at Peninim were staff members there during the time in question, and there is no discussion as to whether they dealt with this situation appropriately within the context of their positions as teachers. Why does the pesak not address this issue?

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  36. Then it hasn't been addressed yet. Though I can't imagine how he can address my concern unless he has managed to get the parties involved to issue an apology and make a clear stand against Meisels.
    Can I contact you privately?

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  37. Perhaps not everybody takes the kashrus of their daughters as seriously as the kashrus of their food. Or maybe they don't take either seriously.

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  38. @Yehoshua - excellent question. Rav Shafran discusses it in detail in his minority view. I hope to be able to expand on this issue - but now is not the time - but it is important.

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  39. @Yeshivaguy - I understand your concerns and as I said they are addressed fully - but now is not the time to present it. I hope to be able to deal with the issue in the near future - but not now.

    I don't have time now before Pesach but perhaps Chol HaMoed - remind me.

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  40. @yeshivaguy - there is a pischei teshuva which asks which is a higher madreiga - to each meat that there was never a question about - or to eat meat that has been paskened to be kosher.

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  41. I know - I was referring to that. My daughter is more important to me than my steak :)

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  42. @RaP - please get off your white horse.

    I said she needs to write with basic derech eretz if she wanted her comments to appear. It is more important for her to show contempt then it is to have a discussion

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  43. "white horse" = "high horse"

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  44. You just missed a good opportunity to contribute to this discussion in a major positivecway. Color me "disappointed".

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  45. You may keep your psyco-analysis of me to yourself. And u have said a number of u intelligent things in your post. As for my posts, this has nothing to do with "derech Eretz". It has to do with Eidensohn not knowing how to respond to my knowledge of the teachers and their behavior.

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  46. Do you have a copy of his minority view?

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  47. Either "white horse" or "high horse" = "I've never been on any horse"!



    The point is to keep lines of communication open.



    And yes TruthSeeker can be obnoxious, but that is just part of the new generation's mentality it seems. Anyhow, just trying to defuse this situation that has by now run its full course. People must decide if they wish to follow and trust the ruling/s of the joint Bais Din or not. Or if they want to pay a king's ransom to send their daughters for a luxury year of travel abroad that does not prepare them for life or marriage (there are no one year "vacations" in marriage it's a very tough full-time job for life!), or if they think that it's great to send their daughters to far-off seminaries.



    It's up to people now.



    What can we do?



    Nothing much really, just chat on this blog.



    Touro College will make its own determinations about accreditation because they have to answer to the guidelines and inspections of the US federal government that disburses the PELL grants. It's all about the bottom line! Gelt!



    No use being angry at TruthSeeker, or at Lopin and his "Frum Follies" blog, or at Touro College, or at the CBD, or the rulings of the joint Bais Din, because they did NOT cause the problem and they are not at the root of the problem. As the late Rav Noach Weinberg used to say, "keep your eye on the ball" (a good rule in sports, if you have ever played seriously, is that you do NOT play the man [by making it personal with your opponent], you play to [win] the ball in order to move the game along and win!)


    The focus always needs to be on the one who cause this problem, Rabbi Elimelech Meisels himself and at no time should the pressure or the focus or the discussion ever drift away from or moved from dealing with him and the huge stick and Chillul HaShem he brought about all by himself. His staff is a Nebech case and suffering the to be expected collateral damage, because what are they supposed to do? he was their boss and they either knew nothing, or bought into his modus operandi, or just turned a blind to what was going on, and we all know that in order to be Mechanech many of those girls and take them seriously a lot of looking the other way is required to make any headway with them.



    But Rabbi Meisels's RISKY behavior and risk-taking obviously reached critical mass at some point and things went too far, so he got himself into hot water because eventually enough girls, parents and people started to complain to more and more rabbis and it reached the ears and inner sanctums of the CBD who then acted on what came before them, that much we know because they put out all the initial and laterl letters that we have all read by now.



    Anyone can make a few mistakes, but when negative behavior becomes habitual or a pattern then at some point the balloon will inflate so much that the bubble will burst and all hell will break loose, and that is what happened.


    So yes, it's important to see all sorts of factors and actors and how they connect, but never ever lose sight of the main focus and who is at the center of it all: None other than Rabbi Elimelech Meisels himself and it is time to stop picking fights with minor and insignificant specks in the broader scheme of things.



    And of course girls like TruthSeeker are as mad as hell. what do you expect? Some of these girls were built up by Rabbi Meisels himself, they get attached, and then surprise, surprise, they become like "stalkers" and "jilted lovers" and as the famous line goes:

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  48. Forgive me, but please...

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  49. @RaP - as I said you follow Carl Rogers - it simply isn't appropriate in this case

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  50. @RaP - there is no purpose in tolerating her deliberate insults - because she really has nothing of importance to contribute. It is foolish to say we need to understand why a Palestinian becomes a suicide bomber or why there are race riots and looting. Their behavior is unacceptable and should not be tolerated.So she is angry - so what!





    Furthermore You have stated that you don't know what is going on regarding the beis din and you are against the seminaries in the first place - so your comments simply are not informed or helpful in this matter.



    Truthseeker has her self righteous anger which she carefully protects from going out. She is going through life admiring herself in a mirror for her "courage". She is proud of her ignorance of the issues and that she doesn't care about the facts that the extended beis din decided were important.



    She would have been happy living during the French Revolution where she would have sat directing the guillotine yelling "off with his head". She craves the power and the attention - and I am not interesting in contributing to her perverse sense of importance.



    She has been given numerous chances to discuss issues in a calm adult fashion - but she insists that her "superior" moral sense be acknowledged. She acknowledges that insulting me is more important to her then discussing issues. It does not help her to grow up to keep giving her a platform to vomit up her bile - especially when it is harming others.

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  51. Color me unsurpirsed.

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  52. Its interesting. I've seen you, RaP, fly off the handle several times. Insults galore. Low-class attacking. Ant straight out anger. Now, you come here to preach to others about "Ahavas Yisroel for a Tinok Shenishba", kumbaya, "patience and tolerance."

    קשוט עצמך ואח"כ קשוט אחרים

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  53. No, white horse is correct. RAP is playing the knight.

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  54. Tell me of one "insult" or "name calling" I have done in the last 48 hrs of posting here. None. I have said none. You are being exceedingly dramatic bc you fail to combat my knowledge of the teachers and their behavior. You are hiding and dodging and then threaten not to post my comments bc I have "insulted you". Where have I done so in this thread? Now, do you have any answers to my questions?

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  55. As for my posts, this has nothing to do with "derech Eretz". It has to do with Eidensohn not knowing how to respond to my knowledge of the teachers and their behavior.


    You're a smart person.
    If you really want to prove your point, why don't you express yourself respectfully? Then, what you claim is an excuse, would be nullified. The truth would be forced to stand.
    So, why don't you express yourself respectfully?
    Furthermore, if you're willing to comment, why waste time and effort throwing out insults and diverting from the actual facts? When we see you running away from the facts, and then being busy behaving in an unbecoming manner, we conclude that this is you unloading your emotional issues upon us. If we're wrong, prove it. Thank you.

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  56. Perfectly said.

    All I can add is that when this is the best Lopin, Gottesman and Co. could come up with to support their position, it's a terrible sign of how feeble their position is. No one a mentally imbalanced ally on board and then publishes her work if they weren't so desperate for anyone at all to back them up.

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  57. "Look here Mr. "Hashem Runs the World" there are many very serious people who read and respond on Lopin's "Frum Follies" blog."

    If you're the barometer for a "very serious person" then you are correct. Since most here would agree that you don't quite meet that standard, I believe it's not actually the case. He has a small choir that he preaches to incessantly and that's basically it. Argue with him once or try to offer any defense for one his accused and you're dead. There's no room for any dissenting opinions there. It would interfere with his agenda.

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  58. Funny!

    You don't have to prove to us that you like having the last word. We know it already. Say something original for a change that is not nasty. I was hoping you woulkd cut out your carping but you seem to want to act the troll and avoid the subject as much as TruthSeeker is doing. I am really a very compassionate person who has been through a lot of suffering in real life and I empathize with fellow-Jews, how about you?

    Thanks for the compliments and for the Mussar, it is always good and important to take criticism no matter where it comes from. Can you do that as well? If you could cut out the menace in your tones, you would actually be a very good writer. Thanks again for the words of Tochacha, I hope you can be a good example to me and everyone else in this regard too.

    By the way, were you the one who outed TruthSeeker by publishing her real life initials on this blog or was it someone else of very low character? She may be obnoxious but she should still be heard out. Even screaming women and barking dogs have something to convey if you listen carefully to their inner voices.

    I know this may come as shock to you but people, all people, truly have feelings and a range of emotions. Not everyone can be a good party-member automaton and salute "yes sir" all the time. A mashgiach ruchani has feelings if he is humiliated and fired unjustly. A person who is run over by a bus screams, they don't have time to make you happy and suffer in silence and die neatly just because it makes you squirm. A girl who was part of an abusive seminary system has feelings and shouts out in an inarticulate way, not every victim is trained to say "help" in a polite way, just as a woman who gives birth is not expected to say "pass the sugar" as if she is lady muck on toast when she is in the delivery room.

    The words "Oy" and "Vey" are used in the Kinnos of Tisha Be'Av to express deep inner anguish, they are inarticulate but direct and clear cries from the heart, something you cannot grasp because you are too busy being vigilant in the watch-tower for your master who probably pays you and Moe to waste time on this blog.

    I have still not figured out the puzzle of what you and Moe are doing on this blog besides acting like a peanut gallery to slice up people you don't like.

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  59. Rabbi Eidensohn, while I can understand TruthSeeker'ss behavior as being immature, unsophisticated and coming from "the mouth of babes" she is just a baby compared to most of the people who comment on this blog. But I cannot fathom why you are angry at her at all. Has she done something to you personally to hurt you or cause you harm in any way in the real world? Let's say there is something you have not told us, such as she did something wrong to you or someone in your family or cause some real-time damage, then it's understandable to be angry at such a reckless person.

    But from what I can tell, this is a very angry young woman who is not to good at expressing herself clearly and cogently in any way suitable for such a sophisticated blog like this, so why are you so mad at her? I don't get it. Just see the way she types here, and I have seen some of her stuff on the "Frum Follies" blog, it's just a school-girl's "he said, she said" list of complaints and accusations. Like "he did this to her, she said that to me, I saw him do that, she told me he did that etc", and so on and so forth, that would not stand a chance in a serious debate let alone in a court of law.

    How did this pattern of interaction between her and you begin in the first place? How and why was it alloed to escalte and become a side drama that has nothing to do with the case itself? Why is she being portrayed as a "problem" when she is not, the real problem is Rabbi Meisels and what he did for so many years with those girls according to the allegations. Seems to me there were posters that you let onto this blog that baited her and she fell for their trap hook, line and sinker and started spewing and spouting and venting. Okay, so what? Let her, what can be the harm? I enjoy listening to her vent. Who cares what she says? It is so natural and lacking pretenses. The more polite you are the more she seems totally ridiculous. But when you start to loose your cool, and now comparing her to an Arab "suicide bomber" or worse, which she is not, this just drags you down to her level of cattiness and brawling in the mud and nothing comes of it.

    So I would suggest you just let her act like any patient admitted to an emergency room who is screaming and bleeding all over the place and try to get to the bottom of what she wants. She must want something. Even if it's just to see her enemies drop dead (not an unusual feeling from victims of and survivors of abusive situations).

    So I am still not understanding what is going on between you and her. I can see that she hates Rabbi Meisels now, maybe she loved him once, and that you wish to convey a just unbiased picture of the entire case, which I have backed you up on. So much so that Lopin has blocked me from commenting on his blog because he feels I am too much on your side. So be it. I have written a few times that you had to take a stand and that everyone is entitled to a defense, whether it be Rabbi Epstein or Rabbi Meisels, and then in any case justice will be done in the end and the the pieces will all fall into place as the chickens come home to roost.



    So I am still trying to figure out the relationship on this blog between you and TruthSeeker, one of the more fascinating ones in a long time because you could so easily play above it all but you have chosen not for some odd reason that I just don't get...

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  60. Have no clue what you just said, but I would like to know more, so could you please explain yourself clearly in full sentences and full thoughts. Thanks!

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  61. David I am disappointed in you. I thought better of you. If I was not serious, would Rabbi Eidensohn not just allow my comments but also allow me to post full guest posts? You obviously do not know the seven year history of this blog and what has gone on here. I have spent that amount of time working very hard around here before any of the current posters showed up with their "singing to the choir" posts. This Meisels case is nothing compared to the issues I have worked with Rabbi Eidensohn on, starting from Tropper, EJF, Guma, Hersh, Conversions, Shavei Israel, Dodelson and much, much more. But it';s always good to see what others are thinking, a good barometer of the direction things are moving in.

    Funny as I read your words about Lopin's style it reminded of me of the exact same things they are saying over there about this blog, so it's weird to hear you mirror their comments but in reverse.


    I will stand by my assertion that posters on Lopin's blog are serious people who care as much if not more about the issues of child abuse. They may be less "yeshivish" in outlook but we cannot expect to live in a world where not everyone shares our own identical views and philosophies of life.

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  62. Shivim Panim LaTorah and in this case there were not one but three Batei Din, the CBD, the IBD, and finally the JBD with lots of variances and nuances about a lot of things, many still not published, making it very difficult for non-experts, like myself admittedly, to really know what are facts and what is fiction.

    Like in any prolonged case that involves rabbis and Talmidos, teachers and students, Dayanim and Roshei Yeshiva, bloggers and posters, and the millions of words that have been expended on this subject revolving around a rather shadowy charismatic spiritual leader, Rabbi Meisels the founder and head of not one but four seminaries in Jerusalem (some known for loosy-goosy American girls) which has its own way of doing things among its frum circles compared to the frum families in America who send their daughters far away. Different police rules of what would happen in Israeli police stations if American girls showed up to complain and what would happen in the USA if a young woman showed up to file complaints and make charges. There are conflicting ages of consent, in Israel it is 16 while in America it is 18 they say, and conflicting legal systems between the Israeli mentality and system and the American way off doing things. While America is more lax in some things like interactions between the sexes in social settings compared to Israeli Charedi life, while in Israel the bar for launching legal action is less so and more tolerant of sexual interactions with younger women than in America with lots more to prove.

    So there are so many cracks and differences. Then you have allegations of sexual misconduct as the raw energy firing up this entire saga and that makes it a very combustible story that refuses to die, as we can all see.

    I agree with that once a Bais Din has spoken it is important and that allow parents to make reliable choices. Lopin is 100% wrong to attack any Bais Din. As imperfect as they are, and they are often far from perfect, but they work none the less and it is the only Bais Din system Klal Yisroel has.

    But I can also see why there is still lingering suspicion, and just because the world does not conform to a narrow Yeshivish point of view, or to your point of view and take on things, does not mean that war has to be waged against a hormonal baby like TruthSeeker who is obviously out of her depth in these kind of discussions. She should just file her complaints with her lawyers and let them do the talking and that's it. I do not know why she wants to be on blogs in any case, as for Lopin, welcome to life not everyone shares your views or mine and so be it, vive la difference, nevertheless I still think he has something important to say, and that it is important to listen about concerns that people may still have about staff.

    Let the staff defend themselves if they want to, they are adults and can speak for themselves any way they want. It would be a good idea to have guest posts from staff members to let the world know what they are thinking and doing and that will reassure people, rather than creating straw men out of Lopin and TruthSeeker as if they are the root of all evil, which they are not.

    Besides why are we all not sick and tired of this discussion by now, I certainly am.

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  63. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/03/frum-follies-why-is-lopin-obsessed-with.html#comment-1924506734

    Funny!

    You don't have to prove to us that you like having the last word. We know it already. Say something original for a change that is not nasty. I was hoping you would cut out your carping but you seem to want to act the troll and avoid the subject as much as TruthSeeker is doing.

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  64. @RaP if you are tired of the topic then the best thing is to stop posting long discussions of the matter.

    The cracks and differences you claim to exist- is not the issue.

    You keep insisting on an approach which is not justified by the evidence - which you are clearly not familiar with

    In short - if you are not interested in the topic and you are not fully aware of the details - then the best approach is to stop commenting on the matter. If everyone else agrees with you then it will simply fade away in a short time.

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  65. I am really a very compassionate

    Really? Do you have an on and off switch for the compassion?

    All the botei din cleared the seminary staff members. Does your compassion not extend to the staff members being falsely slandered by you, the shona uporush "Lopin", Gottesman, and "Truthseeker"???

    More importantly, does your "compassion" not extend to the hundreds, if not thousands, of students who have learned in these seminaries who have now been slandered with the most vile and baseless lies by you, "Lopin", Gottessman and "Truthseeker"? Are these innocent girls not deserving of some compassion? Are they, somehow, deserving of your slander and blogistan?

    I am really a....... person who has been through a lot of suffering in real life

    Is this supposed to give you a free pass at destroying others peoples lives??? Is this supposed to give you a free pass at hurting other people???

    By the way, were you the one who outed TruthSeeker by publishing her real life initials on this blog

    Is this your MO - accuse first, and seek the truth later??? Nope. I have no clue as to who this "Truthseeker is, other than her intials that she, herself, posted here.

    Feelings, anger, and all sorts of emotional baggage do not give one the right, or a free pass, to slander people.

    A girl who was part of an abusive seminary system

    There you go again!
    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/03/frum-follies-why-is-lopin-obsessed-with.html#comment-1921498267

    You admittedly do not know what's going on, or what went on, in the seminaries, yet you run your keyboard off with disregard to the facts.

    ______
    I have still not figured out the puzzle of what you and Moe are doing on this blog

    Quite frankly, focus your attention and thoughts inward, towards yourself. Focus on figuring out your motivations. Why I, or any other person, comes to this blog should not be your concern. Besides, is this intended as an insult to Rabbi Eidensohn? He produces a valuable blog, so people should read it, and you question why it is, B"H, successful???

    acting like a peanut gallery to slice up people you don't like...

    Hmmm. Anyone projecting their wares onto others over here?

    קשוט עצמך ואח"כ קשוט אחרים

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  66. Agreed 100% and thank you for your patience and indulgence and for devoting time to this topic, not to mention the hours of hard work you selflessly put in every day to make this blog so successful and the premier Torah blog in the world1 I really mean that.

    At the time when the Meisels scandal was top news I still did not have the new Disqus system working on my computer, but I have by now been able to state the core of my impressions and reactions to this saga.

    Hopefully it will come to full closure very soon, I feel we are basically 99% of the way there. The JBD has issued its rulings, and that gives parents what to rely on. There is not much else outsiders and small people like ourselves can do.

    at this point.



    We must now all make our choices and overcome our dilemmas:

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  67. Thanks for the Mussar and Tochacha, I will take it in the right spirit.


    I see I have you all worked up, sorry about that old chap. Relax!



    The rest of what you say about me is false and I will use my "do not respond" switch to avoid feeding the trolls.

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  68. Interesting interpretation, never thought about it til now...

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  69. More unoriginal drivel. How sad.

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  70. Yes, you rush to rescue the damsel in distress. She may be a nasty, abusive, thick-headed damsel, but you're playing knight anyway.

    BTW, What is it with the silly pictures? If the goal is to annoy, you've succeeded. You can stop now.

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  71. Did your therapist give you some kind of writing exercise that has a minimum word count requirement? That is the only rationale I can come up with for what is otherwise an absolutely worthless pile of drivel.
    You've already admitted you know nothing of the case so why not just stick to things you claim to know something about?
    Believe it or not, there are real consequences to what went on over here and innocent people were hurt. Unless you know the facts of this case, you have no way of knowing who is innocent and who is guilty regardless of how many letters were published or blog posts written. So until you educate yourself on the basics, why not go back to fighting against R' Schechter or whomever it is that you're mad at?

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  72. As i said, you know nothing about this case or everything I wrote would have more than self-explanatory. I have no interest in providing you a free education.

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  73. I couldn't give a thimble-full worth of rat's droppings about whether you're disappointed in me or not. I don't know much about the cases you've allegedly worked on, but I do know that you don't know anything about this case.

    And since real people have been and continue to be harmed by this episode and much of that has been at the hands of lopin and co. it's important not to opine about how wonderful they are unless you know the facts.

    My issues with Lopin and and his minions have nothing to do with being yeshivish. I don't believe that I qualify for that title either. It has more to do with them being agenda-driven liars. If you consider an agenda-driven liar to be a serious person, then you'll have to come to terms with the fact that I'll continue to disappoint you.

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  74. Kishke, are you incapable of seeing a more nuanced approach to problem solving? Not every problem has to be solved with dynamite! Different people require different approaches. Read my posts again and TruthSeeker's responses and you will see that I have leveled more intelligent criticism's of her than just screaming at her. She hates my guts as much as anyone else's, that much is obvious. maybe she has issues with male authority figures and is projecting her anger at her father or older relatives at the rest of us. My approach would have been to be more psychological or lawyerly with her and not prosecutorial and accusative by going toe to toe with her because she is just an angry young girl, who may have something to say but is her own worst enemy. Let her scream and shout, so what, who cares, show only reflects poorly on herself and hurts her cause. if this was your hormonal teenage daughter or wife going through PMS then you would be a lot more patient and know that dealing with and debating with females is not the seem thing as having a sensible discussion between men. If all this is beyond you, then sorry, just skip to the next sentence.

    I have lately found that the easy use of pictures can make the same points without going into major discussions, because as the saying goes: A picture is worth a thousand words, like so:

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  75. Ahh, so you speak in a "secret code" that only you and a few others understand. How does that help Meisels or the 4 seminaries and their staff?

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  76. Could you list, clearly and succinctly, Lopin's lies. No doubt it is important to know. What is his agenda? How come for years he was helpful the this blog-owner's work and in this case they landed up on opposing sides?

    A lot of things do not add up.

    One of them is why is everyone talking about the frivolous Lopin or the teenage-tantrums of TruthSeeker and conveniently forgetting Rabbi Meisels and his enablers? Imagine if during the Lanner scandal he had an "IBD" to back him up like Meisels got?

    I could just see how folks like you would be up in arms and self-righteous about all those nasty "agenda-driven" bloggers and nosy "ignorant" media that attacked poor lil' old Lanner who had to go to jail for allegedly molesting girls in NCSY and in the Jewish day school in Deal, NJ where he was the charismatic Menahel, over decades, when his seductive and abusive predatory behavior was overlooked at NCSY and the OU and that finally resulted in a major shake up with lots of his staff and superiors having to quit, something that so far the Meisels people have escaped with the help of folks like you, Rav Aron Feldman's meddling, and the IBD! That is NOT my view, and please do not attack for it, I am just the messenger trust me (as in: don't shoot the messenger because you hate the message!!!), but it is how LOTS of people out there in the big wide world see it. You need to wrap your mind around that and deal with it, my friend! Problems are not solved by covering them up, dressing them up, or hiding them under the rug or behind talk of esoteric language that only uopu and selct few of Mavinim THINK they know.

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  77. Seminaries are like grocery stores? When did that happen? We can all live without seminaries but we cannot live without the food that groceries sell us to live! picj better analogies next Mr. Hashem!

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  78. With your long line of irrelevant writings, once again, you still are showing an inability to admit a mistake. The CBD clearly admitted that they were mistaken. However, RaP, in his infinite wisdom still insists that their original declaration still stands. Somehow we're supposed to agree with RaP since he wrote about Buckingham Palace, Watergate and other fun stuff in CAPITAL letters.

    So rather than just making blanket personal attacks on me or anyone else that rubs you the wrong way for no good logical reason, the smart thing to do is to just point to SPECIFIC points in the arguments and debates and take it from there by debating the subject matter and not creating red herrings and straw-man arguments by fighting posters that does not solve anything, even though it may make you feel better to attack me when I have not done anything to you that would warrant your personal outbursts against me as far as I know.

    Take care buddy!




    If only we practiced what we preach.

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  79. If you don't like "Blogistan" then why are you on it and why do you act like a vicious Blogistanik yourself all the time?


    Huh? Another bucket full of red herrings by RaP. I'm not going for them.
    LOL


    Kindly and succinctly, please answer mypoints. Thank you.

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  80. @RaP why are you obsessed with a topic that you have repeatedly said you are tired of hearing about again? Your word output is many times the combined words of all the other responders on this topic?

    It would seem that this fits your characteristic approach of trying to position yourself as the center of attention, the scholar, the perceptive one,the wise man the arbitor of what is right or proper - by hijacking topics with very long discourses that simply wear down those who disagree with your comments

    In all fairness I acknowledge that you do often say very intelligent things and I value you for your many positive contribution - but you must admit that no one else relates to the topics and this blog the way you do.

    So instead of turning the seminary issue into an opportunity to analyze me and Lopin as well as to pasken on THE right way of understanding the issues why don't you try something different.

    Let me suggest a personal challenge for you. Do what Yerachmiel Lopin and Harry Maryles and I have done- start your own blog. That would provide a clear reality test of the interest readers have of your type of analysis. You would also get feedback as to how to present your ideas so that they have maximum impact and to moderate or stop approaches that simply have readers skipping whole paragraphs or even the entire comment.

    It has always fascinated me that you don't stand on your own two feet - but rather prefer building on the work of others.

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  81. But I cannot fathom why you are angry at her at all.


    In 25 words or less, please show where Rabbi EIdensohn expressed anger at Truthseeker. Thank you.


    If you're unable to this, in 25 words or less, you realize that your complete post becomes irrelevant to the situation at hand, right? You realize that what you've written is based upon false assumptions, right?

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  82. I don't see her as a problem to solve, I see her as a weird person to avoid.

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  83. Brilliant. Fascinating.
    If I ever get around to reading this, I might even believe that, but not likely it's gonna happen. Just keep on plugging away at these assignments and maybe something will give.

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  84. How "LOTS of people out there in the big world see it" is irrelevant. What is relevant is what exactly happened. You admit that you don't know. I've never made such an admission because I happen to know fairly well what happened.
    Why? Because I've taken the time to do my research.
    No one escaped anything and certainly not because of the IBD or Rav Aron Feldman's meddling. Meisels was sacked immediately and that has never changed. He has been publicly shamed and his life is in shambles.
    His staff has been pilloried by Lopin and Maryles and many others. If they have jobs, they're not worth much because the sems have been badly hurt by the negative publicity. What else would you like to happen to them? Beheadings are not allowed in our religion or by Israeli law.
    The convenient fact that you and Lopin are ignoring is that Rav Aron Feldman was brought in the picture in the first place by none other than the CBD and Mr. Gottesman. They appointed him as the representative for the claimants. Did you miss that fact in your research perhaps? Did you miss the fact that CBD brought the IBD aboard originally and only tried to pretend they didn't once the IBD refused to go along with their attempts to close down all four sems?
    All of this is easily verifiable and documented here and elsewhere. Yet you missed it all because you've done zero credible research. Instead you accuse Rav Feldman of "meddling"?
    And you wish to have us believe that you're a "serious commenter"? Really???
    Get educated and then we can have a discussion. Start with reading all the documents posted here by Rabbi Eidenson and then you'll start to grasp how off base you are with your claims.

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