Yeshiva World News
Jerusalem, Israel - In a bold initiative to rescue Israeli women drawn into marriages with Arab men that have horrifying consequences, the Eternal Jewish Family International (EJFI) has partnered with Lev L'Achim in a dramatic effort to rescue many of these women. For decades, Israeli women of both Orthodox and secular backgrounds have been lured into relationships with Arab men only to find themselves mistreated and abused. The Lev L'Achim organization has become a key force in their rescue. Lev L'Achim has set up a hotline for family members and friends of the victims and frequently for the victims themselves. "Our hotline is published in newspapers, mentioned in lectures throughout the city, and advertised on pay phones, even in Arab villages when possible," says an active leader in Lev L'Achim. "We're trying to reach every woman that needs our help to let her know that she doesn't have to handle her situation alone." With EJFI's involvement, Rabbi Mordechai Neugroschel acts as staff advisor and counsels women involved in interfaith relationships. Horrific stories of their abuse make the headlines, but are sometimes not enough to prevent these women from allowing their relationships to progress [...]
Is it "Eternal Jewish Family rescues women captives with assistance of Lev L'Achim?" or "Lev L'Achim rescues women captives with assistance of Eternal Jewish Family"?
ReplyDeleteAfter all, EJF can "do anything" and "claim anything" once they pump money into any cash-srapped long pre-existing organizations (Lev'Achim has been doing this stuff for at least fifty years or maybe longer.)
But this is one cause that is worthwhile. If it's Jewish women though, it's hard to understand why EJF is needed, because the women are already Jewish and don't need to be converted and their kids are Jewish because the mother's are Jewish.
So how exactly does this fit in with EJF's mission statement of converting gentiles hitched to Jews, unless they are about to launch and effort to convert the Arab husbands of these women, that would be very odd and unlikely in the context of Israeli Arabs who are radicalized and take pride in capturing detached from their familes Israeli Jewish women and turning them into their Muslim wives and concubines and having kids with them.
Nice way for Tropper to distractt the oilem from his other issues with the Kaplan nephew perhaps and his problems with the BADATS telling him to cease and desist from his proselytization actvities and for other rabbis not to attend EJF events. Lev Le'Achim is a very interesting choice because they are not as tied to the Litvish.
Tzarich iyun gado!
Vehaterutz hapashut is: that Rav Tropper is interested in preserving Kedushat Yisrael and so is EJF. So whatever it takes for him to preserve sanctity of the jewish people and that there be no intermarriage Rav Tropper is involved in!
ReplyDeleteYasher Koach again for Rav Tropper for helping other organizations and being a partner for such a great mitzvah of pidyon shvuyim and removing a terrible avera of intermarriage!
May all forces join together and emulate this example and may all people jealous of him find something else to do because they will have a hard time remvoing their problems!
Well, at least Roni/Tropper admits that helping to support Yad Le'Achim is a way of distracting attention from EJF's main proselytization mission. Look at it as a grand red herring jesture by EJF throwing money in Yad Le'Achim's direction.
ReplyDeleteHow much was involved here in any case for EJF to win a cheap PR victory? $5,000- or $10,000-? It surely is not in the millions range and this may still be from the $10 million in dispute with Kaplan's nephew, so it could all be a case of too little and too late for EJF and Tropper. Time will tell.
It may be that there is also something else that is at work here.
In a recent post on his own blog, Rabbi Tropper has raised the issue that there are poskim who hold that even a child who has a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father should undergo a full geirus.
"Should the Child of a Jewish Mother and Non Jewish Father Go Through a Jewish Conversion?Posted by Rabbi Tropper Posted in jewish conversion Posted on 14-09-2009
Tags: Jewsh Conversion, rabbi tropper.
Question:
Rabbi Tropper, is there a custom that a child who is born from a Jewish mother but has a non Jewish father should go through the process of Geirus?
Shalom B.
Passaic , NJ
Rabbi Tropper Responds:
This is a machlokes rishonim regarding the explanation of the Gemora in Kidushin 68. Rashi’s opinion is that the child even though a Jew requires Geirus (Jewish conversion). Other Rishonim disagree.
The Chemdas Shlomo in his responsa mentions the Shita of Rav Yaakov of Lisa (nesivos hamishpat)who does require Geirus (Jewish conversion). The Chemdas shlomo argues and does not require geirus.
But, he himself was machmir when asked and instructed those who inquired, to follow the opinion of Rav Yaakov of Lisa.
Lemaase:
Maran Harav Moshe, zt’l and the Posek hador Rav Y. S. Eliyashuv, Shlit”a are opposed to performing a geirus in this situation.
Similar Posts
Can a Non Jewish Child with a Jewish Father be Accepted into Torah Classes?
Is Full Acceptance of Mitzvot Required For a Jewish Conversion?
Learning Hichos Geirus (Laws of Jewish Conversion) Sponsored by EJF
When Does the 3 Months of Separation Begin Before Marriage for Jewish Converts?
Can a Bais Din Megayer a Woman Who is Married to a Jew"
-------
From the tone and not so subtle implication of Tropper's own post here, and the mere fact that he brings it up at all at this time, is it chance that it's at the very time he's throwing money at Yad Le'Achim?, it seems that if Rabbi Tropper had his way, he would probably impose an even stricter and harsher standard on the Yad Le'achim boys born to Jewish mothers from Muslim fathers, and any any others like them, make them go through a full geirus, based on his "conclusions" from the Chemdas Shlomo, but what can one do, "lemaase" Rav Moshe Feinsteein and Rav Eliashiv don't rule like that.
The subject of interfaith dating in Israel between Jewish women and Muslim/Arab men is huge in a society where most Israelis are secular, post-Zionist and accept Arabs as full co-equals and see no religious reasons not to date Arabs based on what they regard as ancient "racist" and "narrow minded" laws that they do not accept nor practice.
ReplyDeleteSo while what Yad LeChaim is important, most of those women went over to live with the Arab men vuluntarily and in a democratic society like Israel's there is nothing that one can really do except wait and act peacefully to bring back the lost women and their children.
But it's tough and will get worse, just see this fresh report in The Times online:
"Israeli vigilantes target young Arab-Jewish couples (Sheera Frenkel in Pisgat Ze’ev, September 28, 2009)
It’s past 10pm, but work has just begun for the group of vigilantes in a small white hatchback patrolling the streets of Pisgat Ze’ev — a Jewish settlement on the outskirts of east Jerusalem.
As the car crawls through the nearly empty streets, the men peer out at couples. They say they are experts at spotting those that don’t “match”.
“Stop, right there. Stop the car. Is he an Arab? That dark guy . . . If they are both Jewish, keep the car moving!” yells out ‘David’, a 31-year-old Jewish settler who does not use his real name.
For more than a decade, David has considered it his unofficial job to patrol the streets looking for mixed Arab-Jewish couples. “We are protecting the Jewish people, our traditions, our heritage. Some people just get mixed up. We talk to them, explain why it’s important for Jews to be with Jews,” he said...
In Pisgat Ze’ev, the growing number of Arab-Jewish couples is seen as the result of more Jewish settlements in Arab east Jerusalem.
“The problem is always with Jewish girls dating Arab men. The Arab guy comes and buys them things, treats them well. They fall for it. They can’t see what they are doing,” says David.
Sarah, who asked not to use her real name, said it is men like David who are the problem, not her Arab boyfriend, Zadar. “I’m not stupid, or gullible or looking for trouble. I’m a Jewish girl who happened to meet a guy I like, who happens to be Arab. It’s my business. We have to go other places to go on dates, places where these guys won’t find us,” she said..."
"Well, at least Roni/Tropper admits that helping to support Yad Le'Achim is a way of distracting attention from EJF's main proselytization mission".
ReplyDeleteSHAKRON, NO ADMISSION OF ANY SORT! There is no "proselytizing" going on; whatever happens is less than bomzer and your colleagues did and do.
Why TropperRoni does not do in Israel what he does here, he should go and fancy retreat in fancy hotel for Jewish Girls who dates Arab. He should have bring rabbis to conferences to raise the standards of converting Arabs and stop Rabbi Bomzer from doing it. He should put ads in Al-Ayyam النهار to convince Arab-Jewish couples to convert.
ReplyDeleteThe question is we he revoke the Arab ‘s conversion if he wears pants or forget to cover his hair, or decides to be Modern Orthodox
whether or not and whatever Rav Tropper does nad will do in Israel should not be a concern to you as you are not worried at all, neither about the jewish girls who fall under the Arab men; what should concern you is to quickly goto an Md and have ahavas yisroel to take your twin RAP with you and he prescribe you with a strong ATNi Tropperphobia dose! for both of you can't decide whether RAv Tropper calls for "hitching a TRILLION GOYIM IN JUPITER" or he will "revoke all the conversions for they wear pants in Jupiter", so get prescription as quick as possible for your faculties are not functioningn due to an acute maldy of "tropperphobia.
ReplyDeleteand while you are at it go to a rabbi to help you out with reading Yebamot 79 a!
RAv Tropper calls for "hitching a TRILLION GOYIM IN JUPITER" or he will "revoke all the conversions for they wear pants in Jupiter
ReplyDeleteTropper,
Did you put this ad saying that 3rd of humanity might be Jewish and invite them to convert ?
http://www.articlearchive.co.uk/articledetail.php?artid=143792&catid=354
Did you revoke the conversion of a Modern Orthodox woman because she wire pants and sometime neglected to wear her shietel as described here?:
http://www.jewcy.com/tags/leib_tropper
At least rabbi Bomzer does not do it, fish for converts like you or revoke conversions like you because of Modern Orthodox lifestyle.
Rabbi Bomzer probably brought more Jews to Yiddishkeit than you with all the millions you already spent on Kol Yaakov and EJF.
Talking of Masechta Yevomas, seems that Roni/Tropper has yet again forgotten Rabbi Eidensohn's key post Proselytizing is problematic II - Yevamos 109b (January 11, 2008)that it is in that Maseschta that states: "
ReplyDeleteיבמות (קט:): דא"ר יצחק, מאי דכתיב: (משלי יא:טו) רע ירוע כי ערב זר? רעה אחר רעה תבא למקבלי גרים, ... מקבלי גרים - כר' חלבו, דאמר ר' חלבו: קשים גרים לישראל כספחת בעור.
Yevamos (109b): R’ Yitzchok said what is the meaning of Mishlei (11:15): He that is a surety for a stranger will suffer for it? That means evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts... That those who accept converts bring evil upon themselves is learned from R’ Chelbo who said: Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore on the skin.
תוספות (יבמות קט:): רעה אחר רעה תבא למקבלי גרים -
אמר ר"י דהיינו היכא שמשיאין אותן להתגייר
או שמקבלין אותן מיד אבל אם הן מתאמצין להתגייר יש לנו לקבלם שהרי מצינו שנענשו אברהם יצחק ויעקב שלא קבלו לתמנע שבאתה להתגייר והלכה והיתה פלגש לאליפז בן עשו ונפק מינה עמלק דצערינהו לישראל כדאמרינן בהגדת חלק (סנהדרין צט:) וגם יהושע קבל רחב הזונה ונעמה ורות המואביה ובריש פרק במה מדליקין (שבת לא.) שגייר הלל אותו שאמר גיירני על מנת שתשימני כ"ג ואותו דעל מנת שתלמדני כל התורה כולה ואע"פ שלא היו מתאמצין להתגייר יודע היה הלל בהן שסופם להיות גרים גמורים כמו שעשה לבסוף
Tosfos (Yevamos 109b): Evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts – The Ri explained that that is only when the non‑Jews are proselytized to convert or they are accepted prematurely before they are ready. However if they themselves strongly want to convert we should accept them. The reason that they should be accepted is that we find that Avraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov were punished because they didn’t accept Timna when she came to convert and so instead she went and became Esav’s son Eliphaz ’s concubine (pilegesh). Their offspring was Amalek who embittered the life of Israel as we see in Sanhedrin (99b). Yeshoshua also accepted Rachav the Zona. Naomi accepted Ruth the Moabite. We also see in Shabbos (31a) that Hillel converted someone who came to him and said, “convert on the condition that I serve as high priest” and another one who said, “convert me on the condition that you teach me the entire Torah.” Even though these people were obviously not fully committed to convert nevertheless Hillel know that eventually they would be proper converts as indeed happened."
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteRoni,
ReplyDeleteActually I have a problem with saying that Rashi requires a geirus. Other Shittot of Rashi state:
1) a Kohen may marry a woman with a non-Jewish father.
2) a Kohen may not marry a convert.
This is a serious stira in Rashi.
"Roni,
ReplyDeleteActually I have a problem with saying that Rashi requires a geirus. Other Shittot of Rashi state:
1) a Kohen may marry a woman with a non-Jewish father.
2) a Kohen may not marry a convert.
This is a serious stira in Rashi".
Other than you censoring me, and giving room for libelous comments and not allowing to respond to these false allegations, i have no idea what you are referring to?
"This post has been removed by a blog administrator".
ReplyDeleteWhy? Because you want to get a way to allow libel and not allow to respond to these allegations?
What are you talking about. I haven't edited you, deleted your comments ect... I don't have the power to do that. In general on this issue I say Yashar Koach to all involved, and intend to stay mostly within the bounds of the OP as to my comments.
ReplyDeleteHowever responding to your comment, I am saying that Rashi, in the Chumash and well as a couple of places in the Gemarra, states that either directly or through omission that a Kohen may marry a daughter of a Jewish woman married to a non-Jew.
Here you bring a piece claiming to say that Rashi says that such a person must convert to be considered Jewish. This is a direct contradiction of statements. Furthermore R' Eliashiv and R' Yosef have ruled(according to the Va'ad HaKohanim)that a Kohen, under certain circumstances can marry such a person even L'chatchila.
However, I think the issue is that R' Tropper needs to check his sources a bit better, from my reading of the Rashi on Kiddushin 68b(starting with the dibur hamaskil, "benecha myisraelit karuy benecha" and the next two Rashis), he says that a child of Jewish father needs to convert, but a child of a Jewish mother does not.
Again for me this is just a halakhic discussion.
Roni,
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I am personally wondering why you do not extend the same courtesy to R' Bomzer as you insist upon for R' Tropper. Really it seems to be a bit of a double standard.
Let me explain. Some people here are convinced that what R' Tropper is doing is harming the Jewish people. You say there is no evidence, and that they are liars.
You say that R' Bomzer is hurting the Jewish people. Yet you have not provided evidence. Why should they not call you a liar?
and while you are at it go to a rabbi to help you out with reading Yebamot 79 a!
ReplyDeleteTropper,
From Yebamot 79a, things that really apply to you
(1)שלשה סימנים יש באומה זו הרחמנים והביישנין וגומלי חסדים
This nation is characterized by three things: they are compassionate, bashful, and benevolent .
Knowing your history one wonders….
(2) The other lesson from Yavamot 79a: the sons of King Saul are being hanged from a tree as punishment for their treatment of converts.
ומה עשו פשטו ידיהם בגרים גרורים
You with your torturing of converts should be very afraid….
"What are you talking about. I haven't edited you, deleted your comments ect... I don't have the power to do that."
ReplyDeleteIf i Don't believe you does not make a kofer!
" In general on this issue I say Yashar Koach to all involved, and intend to stay mostly within the bounds of the OP as to my comments".
You haven't stayed in the past "impartial"!
"However responding to your comment, I am saying that Rashi, in the Chumash and well as a couple of places in the Gemarra, states that either directly or through omission that a Kohen may marry a daughter of a Jewish woman married to a non-Jew".
I don't recall this Rashi in particular; though it seems that So paskens this way but i don't recall this to be a rashi!
"Here you bring a piece claiming to say that Rashi says that such a person must convert to be considered Jewish".
What are you talking about? you are also from Jupiter? I'm not RT! less than you are DT!
"Furthermore R' Eliashiv and R' Yosef have ruled(according to the Va'ad HaKohanim)that a Kohen, under certain circumstances can marry such a person even L'chatchila."
SO? They obviously do not pasken like that opinion (and like the other rashi).
"However, I think the issue is that R' Tropper needs to check his sources a bit better, from my reading of the Rashi on Kiddushin 68b(starting with the dibur hamaskil, "benecha myisraelit karuy benecha" and the next two Rashis), he says that a child of Jewish father needs to convert, but a child of a Jewish mother does not".
Maybe you need to check your sources a bit better. for obviously that sugya in kiddushin does not go like the man deomar in yebamot veod that nochri haboh al bad yisroel tzorich gerut and look at this mahrasho to see that he saw rashi contradicting himself and understood that in one place he meant that the person has to be megayer himself
מהרש"א חידושי הלכות מסכת קידושין דף עה עמוד ב
תוס' בד"ה ורבי ישמעאל כו' לימא הולד כשר וכ"ש דאיכא למיחש טפי שלא כו' עכ"ל דבריהם צריכין עיון דמשמע... היינו דכשר ממש ואף שלא יתגייר משום דאמו ישראלית היא ... וכן נראה מפרש"י לקמן הא דפריך גבי... וכוונת הגה"ה זו דלפי תירוצם לית לן למימר דהולד כשר ממש אלא שהוא כשר אם נתגייר ונשתחרר אח"כ ולא הוי ממזר וכן הוא לשון פסקי תוספות עובד כוכבים הבא על בת ישראל הולד כשר והוי עובד כוכבים עכ"ל וכן נראה מפרש"י בס"פ האומר גבי גר ע"ש ... ואיך שיהיה דברי רש"י סותרין דלקמן מוכח מפירושו דהולד כשר ממש קודם שיתגייר וישתחרר ומפירושו בסוף פרק האומר לא משמע כן וצ"ע:
but what would i expect from haters of a man where they jump to smear adn attack eveninissues where they are ILLITERATE!
"On another note, I am personally wondering why you do not extend the same courtesy to R' Bomzer as you insist upon for R' Tropper. Really it seems to be a bit of a double standard".
ReplyDelete"השב אל קיאו...."
In jupiter they work like that. but in the real world, they have the decency and honesty not to be gonev das habriyot! When you censored the message, I explained to you:
1) I *know* that the man converted people without *any* kabbalat hamitzvot *knowing that there is no kabbalat hamitzvot. *i* know that he did it for money! and I know that Tropper Batey Dinim *do* erequest kablat hamitzvvot. And *I* know that he refused to convert uncle's nephew! for lack of kabbalat hamitzvot! And I know afellow in the carolinas where he took a long time to convert until the person was ready for basic kabbalat hamitzvot.
"Let me explain. Some people here are convinced that what R' Tropper is doing is harming the Jewish people".
And their opinion did not convince me! Neither you or your shadow has convinced me that your opinion carries the weight to attack him!
Then you obfuscate and confuse the issue as usual:"You say there is no evidence, and that they are liars".
Yes, regarding FACTS that he "hitches M MILLION GOYIM" AND THAT HE SPRINKLES ON A MILION GOYIM GERUT IT IS libel TO SAY THAT HE DOES THAT. tHE BEST THAT YOU CAN COME UP IS THE ARTCILES (THAT I AGREE ARE NOT APPROPRIATE) HOWFER THEY ARE *NOT* the bulk of his work.
to be contniued... if not censored
"You say that R' Bomzer is hurting the Jewish people. Yet you have not provided evidence. Why should they not call you a liar?"
ReplyDeleteIf you have the decency not to censor, I have already told yo and we had here a letter by A NUMBER OF RABBONIM SIGNED WHERE THEY STATE THAT HE HAS DOES GERUT WITHOUT THE MINIMAL STANDARD IN KABBALAT HAMTIZVOT! THEY MENTION HIS RECENT FAKE GERUT IN THE UKRAINE! THIS IS DETAILED STATEMENTS OF FACTS (NOT AN *OPINION* AND ASSESSMENT OF WHAT HE DOES),
IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE YOU KEEP THIS MESSAGE!
THESE ARE TESTIMONY AND WARNINGS BY RABBIS NOT TO BE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN OF HIS CONVERTS! BECAUSEOF THESE FACTS!
I have already told yo and we had here a letter by A NUMBER OF RABBONIM SIGNED
ReplyDeleteTropper,
That the letter you forged (as was proven here) and at least two rabbis had to retract themselves.
Why can't you show us the hebrew original ?
"That the letter you forged (as was
ReplyDelete1) repeating a LIE a thousand times does NOT make it true!
2)"proven here)":
"proven" in Jupiter does not make it so! It is KNOWN that this is a letter signed by those who appeared on that letter.
3) The two Rabis who "clarified" their menaing to their signature to this letter did not say or imply that it was "forged"; they merely EXPLAINED their intent on the signature of this letter.
4) In their explanation they AFFIRMED that Bomzer did convert many conversions without kabbalat hamitzvot! (it is only that they beleived that he did others which carried kabbalat hamtizvot). And they ruled that those who did not have kabbalat mitzvot should not have their marriage officiated by a Rabbi,
" and at least two rabbis had to retract themselves".
IS A LIE! that they did not "retract" they WROTE that they are CLARIFYING and explained their clarfication!
"Why can't you show us the hebrew original ?"
Although in Jupiter they consider "proof" lack of the text in Chinese; in the real world they accept what is written in plain english for all to understand to be what was written and what was signed on and NO ONE OF THE SIGNATORIES RETRACTED DESPITE THE PRESSURES OF THE TERRORISTS OF JUPITER!
Once again I am not censoring you, you need to take that up with someone else.
ReplyDeletePresuming that I accept that the letter you presented is real. There is also a letter from the BaDaTz stating the same things about R' Tropper.
The only supposed Goy that you can point to that R' Bomzer may have converted without Kabbalat mitzvot is the "Barzilian Woman" noted in your letter(which btw is the only one that letter mentions). All things considered as far as the hows and whens and lawsuits of those that shall not be named, it seems that R' Tropper has a vested interest in defaming a certain person anyway possible. Thus I must conclude that aside from that one individual, you have no evidence aside from a letter.
I will discount that one individual, for the above stated reasons.
So once again we find ourselves on even footing. We have a letter from the BaDaTz, and a supposed letter from several Rabbis.
So again I ask why you do not treat R' Bomzer with the same respect that you demand for R' Tropper.
If you want to talk about *I Know*, I know that that letter was a fake. I know that several Rabbis issued a second letter distancing themselves from the first, on account that it was being used in a way that they never intended, and then they even went so far as to quote the original text, which was far different from what you supplied.
So please contain your rants. The truth is that if you approached this in a rational manner without the name calling, and with measured and mature dialogue you would probably gain a great amount of credibility as well as possibly even prove some of your points.
However your irrational screaming is only serving to make you and R' Tropper more enemies. I give you fair warning from this point on I will only respond those parts of your comments that are written in normal type, without the screaming.
Personally I think it is quite unfair the Shoshi has been banned, yet you remain...
Mekubal wrote:
ReplyDelete"Personally I think it is quite unfair that Shoshi has been banned, yet you remain..."
==========
I agree with you. If you based yourself solely on style and derech eretz - then Roni would have been banned a long time ago. Shoshi "crime" is something that is easily corrected and yet she adamantly refuses. If she wants to write in a less confrontational style she is welcome back.
Roni's ranting - aside from some posts which I deleted - serve a secondary purpose. He is R' Tropper's representative and defender. R' Tropper is in communication with Roni. It is important for people to be aware that this issue of EJF is not simply a halachic issue but involves a strong element of power - and bullying.
"Mekubal"
ReplyDeleteI'll bli neder deal with point by point to show how many flaws are contained in your post and also to show how your mehalech hamchashvah and the one from the host are very simillar. But i'll deal now with the most important nekudah and the fallacy of your "comparison" of the two RAbbi Trooper nad Rabbi Bozmer's "letters":
In that itself "i'll deal separately with the Rabbi Bomzer letter that you so many times distort and obfuscate:
"The only supposed Goy that you can point to that R' Bomzer may have converted without Kabbalat mitzvot is the "Barzilian Woman" noted in your letter(which btw is the only one that letter mentions)".
You continue:"Thus I must conclude that aside from that one individual, you have no evidence aside from a letter'.
"I will discount that one individual, for the above stated reasons."
It is unbelivable how you think you are able to distort the content of the etter the way you do (and it is not the first time). You and many here seem to think that distorting is any lesser crime than "ranting" or "screaming". you should know that (aisde from being a partner to averos when they are covered under one's rug) that "gonev daat habriyot" may be a more severe avero than "ranting", especially when it is done to combat a flasehood disseminated against one individual to libel and smear him!
to be contniued
Mekubal wrote:
ReplyDelete"The only supposed Goy that you can point to that R' Bomzer may have converted without Kabbalat mitzvot is the "Barzilian Woman" noted in your letter(which btw is the only one that letter mentions)".
You continue:"Thus I must conclude that aside from that one individual, you have no evidence aside from a letter'.
"I will discount that one individual, for the above stated reasons."
But it is ALIE for the letter stated much more things that the one individual (that i'll come back to later iy"h): IT states "RABBI ...BOMZER CONTINUING HIS PRACTICE OF operating a Beis Din for giyur THAT DOES NOT MEET EVEN THE MOST MINIMAL STANDARDS. His "conversions" are not accepted by any reputable Beis Din worldwide, including the Rabbanut Harashit Leyisrael!....".
Later in the letter after discussing the individual Brazilian it also states: "It has now come to our attention that he has "converted" residents of the Ukraine without Kabbalat Hamitzvot, while charging high fees. Some of these cases have been discussed wuth R' Bomzer, proving that his "conversions" are uneuivocally Sheloh Kahalacha!".
The letter then continues: "..we therefore understand our responsibility to notify all dayanim rabbanim worldwide that his "conversions" are not accepted or recognized. Rabbobnim Dayanim may not allow these people to becme members of their communities or Mossdot! MOst importantly' they must not be messader kiddushin for any of his "converts" ...
So your distorting the letter to refer to *one individual* only (while that too is not to brushed aside) is GNEVAT DAAT HABRIYOT for here we have a letter of Rabbis attesting that they a)KNOW, 2) his gerut do not carry the MINIMAL STANDARD OF KABBBLAT MITZVOT, 3) THEY DISCUSSED IT *WITH HIM*, 4) THAT MANY OF HIS GERUT WERE SHELO KEHALACHA! 5) THEY SIGNED ON A LETTER TO ALL RABBONIM AND DAYANIM NOT TO ACCEPT GIS COVNERTS IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, 6) NOT TO BE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN FOR *ANY OF HIS CONVERTS*!
So number one, before going any further your stating the letter in any other nature is a crimeof gonev daat habriyot and then we can move on!
After exposing the distortion on the content of the letter, it is bizarre how one can begin to compare the nature of this ltetter to *all* letters by Badatz!
ReplyDeleteIt is beyond any sense of rationality to make this statement: "So once again we find ourselves on even footing. We have a letter from the BaDaTz, and a supposed letter from several Rabbis".
none of the letter of BaDatz make a claim that the gerut of EJf Batey dinim are *sheloh KEhalcha*. NONE PERIOD! they have other concerns, but none of them suggest that this is the issue with EJF! In one of the letters Rav Sternbuch even acknolwedges the possibility of tikkunim in gerut due to EJf but he still objects to the organization! but nowhere does he or can he sugest that EJF makes Gerut without Kabbalat Mitzvot!
your position for the past year (which is a twin position with the one expressed by the owner of the site and they contain the same inexplicable gzera shava so many times that makes you both inseparable in the strings of soul and more...) that "prosetyzing" stinks just as much as the influx of GOYIM GMURIM is bizarre! at best! and the stuborness to hold unto such a position is extremely perplexing as to how a rational intelligent person can uphold such views!
One is at the very worse (and most people disagree, some vehemently with position) doing something not to be done lechatchila; whereas the later (HB) is charged with actually bringning people who are *ahalchikally* labeled as GOYIM GMURIM OR SAFEK GOYIM IN KLAL YISROEL!
to be continued
"Ifyou want to talk about *I Know*, I know that that letter was a fake".
ReplyDeleteand I know that you are a fake! And I know that your statment that this a fake does not hold any water being that NONE OF THE SIGNATORIES CLAIMED THAT THIS IS A FAKE1 Must be that your "knows" of jupiter are different that what we in planet world and those who are honest know about "knowing". People had the guts to sign and NONE wrote that that this "fake"!
"I know that several Rabbis issued a second letter distancing themselves from the first,"
And I know that you are fraud and fake! since this letter did not see thelight of the sun in planet earth!
"on account that it was being used in a way that they never intended,":
The FACTS speak for thsmelves in any shape or form that it was INTENDED! The man made many NON HALACHIK GERIM AND FOR MONEY!
" and then they even went so far as to quote the original text, which was far different from what you supplied"
NONE of your claims are validated by a signed paper by ANY of the signatures! the only ones that exist in the "clarification" by two of the Rabbis that RESTATE the bulk of the letter that Rb did many NON HALACHIK gerut!
"However your irrational screaming is only serving to make you and R' Tropper more enemies".
ReplyDeleteIt serves another purpose though: to EXPOSE that you are a fake and fraud!
"I give you fair warning from this point on I will only respond those parts of your comments that are written in normal type, without the screaming".
ReplyDeleteTO be frank: You have NEVER (even before i discovered your siamese twin's identiacal voices) answered or responded to 98% of the points made SUBSTANTIVELY! anyway! You just distort the facts as you did here with this letter!
Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah said: "It is important for people to be aware that this issue of EJF is not simply a halachic issue but involves a strong element of power - and bullying."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Right on! Couldn't agree more.
Oh, by the way Roni/Tropper, in case you still didn't know, here's reminding you for the umpteenth time that in any Internet communications (on Earth and not on "Jupiter"), UPPER CASE=SHOUTING ! And it's considered VERY rude if done over and over again especialy for entire sentences and paragraphs. But then again, you don't care, do you.
מהרש"א חידושי הלכות מסכת קידושין דף עה עמוד ב
ReplyDeleteTropperoni,
You are one track mind, trying to convert everything which moves. That Maharsha ends with tzarich Yiun but you with your obession to convert even children of Jewish women say it is another opinion but rav Moshe prohibits it.
I wish you would give the courtesy to the rabbi Slifkin whose rioting has more authority and weight than your pipulim shel hevel.
And what is your makor to convert the poor BTwho come to your yeshiva? how do you decide who to convert ? and how many of your talmidim you convince to convert ?
"communications (on Earth and not on "Jupiter"), UPPER CASE=SHOUTING ! And it's considered VERY rude if done over and over again especialy for entire sentences and paragraphs. But then again, you don't care, do you".
ReplyDeleteand for the umpteenth time: "rudeness" is much less severe avera than HOTZAAT SHEM RAH VESHEKER and gnevat daat habriyot!
"You are one track mind, trying to convert everything which moves. That Maharsha ends with tzarich Yiun but you with your obession to convert even children of Jewish women say it is another opinion but rav Moshe prohibits it".
ReplyDeleteLook who is talking and hone track mind?! to trash RT with every breadth that he makes!
Mekubal gave a dig to R. tropper that he should "check" his sources about Rashi saying that children of a jewish mother might need conversion. He wasn;t aware that many attest (in addition to Tossafot, also) to a Rashi! Chochom of jupiter Rabbi Tropper was not ruling HalachaleMaasse; in fact he ends by saying that todays Posskim REJECT tha there be conversion in these cases
as he wrote in his blog: "Lemaase:
Maran Harav Moshe, zt’l and the Posek hador Rav Y. S. Eliyashuv, Shlit”a are opposed to performing a geirus in this situation."
They oppose it and tihs LEMAASSE!
The rest you write, I suggest you to take to your MD URGENTLY and ask him to presecribe a HIGHER DOSE for a serious malady that you have it is called: "tropperphobia"! good luck for quick recovery!
Roni,
ReplyDeleteFirst if you will follow the link to this previous post. You will notice three definite things.
First that the poster, mentions that more than just the two Rabbis have retracted and seems to have evidence of it.
Secondly that in their letter of clarification, these two Rabbis state that R' Bomzer's geirim are acccepted as geirim.
Third that these two distinguished Gedolim treat him with the utmost respect calling him "Distinguished Rov"
In the clarified letter it is pointed out that the distinguished rov's geirim are valid, though some of them are converted under more lenient halachot which were the standard in the US, and which other Gedolim, even in Israel, such as Rav Ovadiah Yosef still support.
Now on the other hand we have a letter from the BaDaTz ordering R' Tropper to cease and desist unless he can produce haskamot from reliable Gedolim. To be clear S.Z. Auerbach Z"L, R Shach Z"L and R' Eliashiv have all ruled that the Batei Dinim in Eretz Yisrael all have the status of a B"D Kavua and one cannot disregard their rulings or not accept their authority.
This leaves us in an awkward position where it seems to appear as though R' Tropper may be in violation of halacha by refusing the B"D. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he quite possibly has a good reason. However, it does appear bad, and thus something he should resolve with all haste.
All of that to say that both Rabbanim, like or not, are controversial subjects currently. Their actions, and in my opinion only their actions, are open for halachic debate. However, considering that both are chashuv rabbanim they both deserve to be treated with the utmost respect.
You would be treated with more respect, and quite frankly more people would take your points seriously if you stated them without referring to R' Bomzer in negative terms, and with more civility.
Roni,
ReplyDeleteThe Maharsha that you quoted says this,
ואיך שיהיה דברי רש"י סותרין דלקמן מוכח מפירושו דהולד כשר ממש קודם שיתגייר וישתחרר ומפירושו בסוף פרק האומר לא משמע כן וצ"ע:
Which first and foremost acknowledges that there is a stira in Rashi, in fact even on the same daf.
The Gilyon HaShas states that Rashi was just bringing an alternate Girsa, and not stating his own shitta.
So once again, I have to say that R' Tropper should have paid a little better attention to the daf.
Further more you did state,
rom the tone and not so subtle implication of Tropper's own post here, and the mere fact that he brings it up at all at this time, is it chance that it's at the very time he's throwing money at Yad Le'Achim?, it seems that if Rabbi Tropper had his way, he would probably impose an even stricter and harsher standard on the Yad Le'achim boys born to Jewish mothers from Muslim fathers, and any any others like them, make them go through a full geirus, based on his "conclusions" from the Chemdas Shlomo, but what can one do, "lemaase" Rav Moshe Feinsteein and Rav Eliashiv don't rule like that.
Which suggests that R' Tropper is taking an extreme position and is only held back by the fact that the Gedolim will not support him on it.
Your words suggest that R' Tropper is an extremist, and you may want to retract them. While I still contend that R' Tropper made an error in his reading of the Daf(which is fine, people do all the time, that's why they work in chavrutot), I don't see him suggesting such an extreme position.
That seems to be to be something that the other commentators are extrapolating from your words, and their assumption that Roni and Tropper are the same person.
"mekubal",
ReplyDeleteBefore we start to answer any substantive point you make, I must say that to be MOTZI SHEKER AND DIBOH IS WORSE THN "RUDENESS" "DERECH ERETZ"; SO IS GONEV DAAT HABRIYOT!
You wrote now: "Further more you did state,
rom the tone and not so subtle implication of Tropper's own post here, and the mere fact that he brings it up at all at this time, is it chance that it's at the very time he's throwing money at Yad Le'Achim?, it seems that if Rabbi Tropper had his way, he would probably impose an even stricter and harsher standard on the Yad Le'achim boys born to Jewish mothers from Muslim fathers, and any any others like them, make them go through a full geirus, based on his "conclusions" from the Chemdas Shlomo, but what can one do, "lemaase" Rav Moshe Feinsteein and Rav Eliashiv don't rule like that".
I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR STUPIDOR A LIAR, BUT IN ANY EVENT NONE OF THIS MAKES YOU ELIGIBLE TO SMEAR ME THIS WAY!
IDIDN'T WRITE THIS! THIS WAS YOUR PRIMARY BASHER AND COMMENTER RAP!
THIS WAS THE THIRD COMMENT ON THIS THREAD , I'LL PUT IT HERE AGAIN
"Anonymous Recipients and Publicity said...
The subject of interfaith dating in Israel between Jewish women and Muslim/Arab men is huge in a society where most Israelis are secular, post-Zionist and accept Arabs as full co-equals and see no religious reasons not to date Arabs based on what they regard as ancient "racist" and "narrow minded" laws that they do not accept nor practice.
.... From the tone and not so subtle implication of Tropper's own post here, and the mere fact that he brings it up at all at this time, is it chance that it's at the very time he's throwing money at Yad Le'Achim?, it seems that if Rabbi Tropper had his way, he would probably impose an even stricter and harsher standard on the Yad Le'achim boys born to Jewish mothers from Muslim fathers, and any any others like them, make them go through a full geirus, based on his "conclusions" from the Chemdas Shlomo, but what can one do, "lemaase" Rav Moshe Feinsteein and Rav Eliashiv don't rule like that.
September 29, 2009 4:33 PM..."
"Which suggests that R' Tropper is taking an extreme position and is only held back by the fact that the Gedolim will not support him on it."
Chochom Jupiter this was written by yuor partner RAP! You guys are unreal: first you are the yetser horah, then soton, then malach hamoves! (as chazal explain the sequence of his shenenagans): first you have a comment BASHING AND LYING NON STOP AT RAV TROPPER THEN YOU TURN AROUND AND YOU SAY THAT THIS WAS WRITTEN BY RONI!
YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY AND A PUBLIC RETRACTION RIGHT NOW!
STOP THE NONSENSE OF "RUDENESS" AND BEGGING FOR "POLITENESS" AND "dERECH ERTS " WHEN YOU ARE MOTZI DIBOH AND SHAKRON ALL TIMES!
NEXT TO MEKUBAl WHICH CONFUSES THE ISSUES AND IS CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF THE JUPITER CITIZENS :
ReplyDelete"So once again, I have to say that R' Tropper should have paid a little better attention to the daf...",
*you* should put a lid in your mouth and pen! A boor veam hooretz who wasn't aware of this rashi and went on the attack mode...Be aware that this Rashi is alluded to in many sforim that deal with this very issue. they allude to this rashi and tossafot. Yet when some go more in details the mention that in rashi itself there is a stira as the maharasha and others mention!
You lost credibility a long time when deqaling with Rav Tropper, whatever he does you will criticize him. normally i myself would have said that he be more careful in saying that this is not lear cut in rashi. But being that you and other are the critics it carries no vlaidity whatsover since all you mean is lekanter. And this after all carries no nafka mina lemaasse whatsover, as (this is discussed and not innovated by rav tropper; iliterates like you thought that you caught a big fish and start to make a whole shtink about it; when this is discussed in many sforim nd) lemmaasse is rejected to make a new conversion so whether he was not careful in recording accurately mamosh does not matter in this place klal uklal. what should matter to you is that you and your partners stop being MOTZI SHEKER VEDIBOH! ON PEOPLE
i WILL START WITH YOUR LAST REMARK because there is a grave dishonesty in you and other partners and siaese twins of this place of DIBOH VESHEKER!
ReplyDelete"You would be treated with more respect, and quite frankly more people would take your points seriously if you stated them without referring to R' Bomzer in negative terms, and with more civility".
Mekubal and other partners and twins etc.
After years of MOTSZI SHEKER VEDIBOH on one person alone you have no credibility whatsover now in requesting that I stop writing negative about R. Bomzer. For I do not write sheker firstly.
Andmost importantly: the points which i write about him, do not reflect other issues than LEFRUSHEH MEISSUREH to DISTANCE PEOPLE FROM SINNING WHICH REQUIRES ONE TO WRITE AND CALL A SPADE SPADE: SOmething which tref has to be lableded tref.
Bringing goyim into klal yisroel is compltely TREF; it is not lack of "lechatchila" it is not something that 10% ofposskim hold to; itis something thatis held by 995 OF ACCEPTEDPOSSKIM AND IT IS BEDIAVAD! THEREFORE IT LEAVES NO ROOM BUT TO SAY THAT INTHE PAST DECADE OR SO HIS COVNERSIONS ARE SHAKY AT BEST AND NULL AND VOID AT WORSE!
But you shall look yourself at the mirror and see whether your words carry any weight and if you have xcredibility when you engaged directly or indirectly on SHEKER VEDIBOH AND VENOMOUS LIES ALL TIMES FOR YEARS!
Now to the points:
ReplyDeletemEKUBAL WROTE: "First that the poster, mentions that more than just the two Rabbis have retracted and seems to have evidence of it".
RONI WRITES: WHICH MEANS: THAT THE OTHER SEVEN RABIS HAVE NOT EVEN WRITTEN A CLARIFICATION AND IT IS disHONEST and SHEKER TO INSINUATE OTHERWISE!
tHEY REMAINED STEADFAST TO EVERY LETTER OF THAT LETTER AND AZAHARA!
MEKUBAL WROTE: "Secondly that in their letter of clarification, these two Rabbis state that R' Bomzer's geirim are acccepted as geirim".
Roni: so to restate, their letter is NOT A RETRACTION as was written by the partners! but a CLARIFICATION OF INTENT!
MOST IMPORTANTLY: YOU ARE DISHONEST AGAIN : THEY DO *NOT* SAY THAT HIS GERIM ARE "ACCEPTED AS GERIM" in ****ALL OF HIS GERUSSEN****" ; THEY ACTUALLY WRITE:
"...IMPRESSION WHEN WE SIGNED THAT WAS WAS, THAT IT WAS WARNING THE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN to evaluate the status of teh converts whose gerut was performed by the beis din that this rov is associated with, in as much as they have a lenient approach..." and the end of the letter they write: "....to accomodate both those who accept the opinion of HagAon HaRav yosef Sholom ELyashiv Shlita, that a Bais Din THAT DOES CONVERSIONS WHICH OFTEN DOES NOT HAVE SINCERE KABBALAT MITZVOT cannot serve as a Bais Din for Gerut...":
WHICH CLEARLY IMPLIES 1) ***AT VERY BEST*** THAT HIS BAIS DIN MAKES "OFTEN" GRUSSEN THAT "DOES NOT HAVE SINCERE KABBALAT MITZVOT". tHEY DO NOT WRITE THAT *THEWY* (RAV SOLOVEITCHIK AND BURSTEIN) HOLD THAT THESE GERIM ARE KOSHER GERIM!
2) FOR ACTUALLY THEY WRITE IN THE BEGGININGOF THE LETTER THAT BFORE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN ONE HAS TO "evaluate THE STATUS OF THE CONVERTS" "IN AS MUCH AS THEY HAVE A LENIENT APPROACH",WHICH MEANS THAT IT IS NOT OBVIOUS THAT THEY ACCEPT THEM TO BE GERIM ***WITHOUT ANY EVALUATION***; IT CLEARLY MEANS THAT IF AFTER EVALUATION IT FAILS THE TEST THEY ARE *NOT* GERIM!! EVEN ACCORDING TO THIS "CLARIFICATION"!
TO BE CONTINUED
Mekubal wrote: "Third that these two distinguished Gedolim treat him with the utmost respect calling him "Distinguished Rov":
ReplyDeleteRoni: I follow the opinion of the ROV HAMINKAR of the letter! who are not as generous! they write vehemently against the stausof this Rabbi to be a kosher Dayan in Gerut AT ALL!
Mekubal writes: "In the clarified letter it is pointed out that the distinguished rov's geirim are valid,"
ReplyDeleteROni: 1) only those that are done according to the standards of halacha that are generally accepted according to the standards are valid period.
2) they acknowledged that the position today by HaRAv ELyashiv that ALL ARE NOT VALID, even on nthose,
3) most importantly the letter clearly acknoledgs that his bais din "OFTEN DOES NOT HAVE SINCERE KABALAS HAMITZVOS",
4) THEY REQUEST THAT "eVALUATION" DONE BEFORE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN THE GERIM WHICH IMPLIES THAT SOME ARE NOT VALID EVEN ACCORDING TO THEM!
Now we come to the acrobatics performe din Jupiter and in bizarre persistence to equate what we have with R. bomzer to that of R. Tropper. It is really mindboggling how a logical individual persists in the silly equation of the situations: of one who has been written about that he "often" his converts sdo not "have sincere kabbalat mitzvot" and other stating clearly that his GERUS ARE NULL AND VOID BEDIEVED AND THAT HE BRINGS GOYIM GMURIM TO someone who at worse is not following an opinion of ONE BAIS DIN ON AN ISSUE OF "LECHATCHILA" BEING THAT THERE S NO CALL ON THE STATUS OF HIS GERUT BEDIAVAD (AFTER ALL HIS PERFORMANCE ON THATIS THAT HE DOES NOT ACCEPT GERIM THAT DO NOT HAVE BASIC KABBLAT MITZVOT)
ReplyDeleteMekubal wrote: Now on the other hand we have a letter from the BaDaTz ordering R' Tropper to cease and desist unless he can produce haskamot from reliable Gedolim. To be clear S.Z. Auerbach Z"L, R Shach Z"L and R' Eliashiv have all ruled that the Batei Dinim in Eretz Yisrael all have the status of a B"D Kavua and one cannot disregard their rulings or not accept their authority'.
Roni: are you out of your jupiter mind? Are you saying that if Bais Din of Edah Hacharedis writes a letter to a person who has ON HIS organization another leading rabbi BEMAKOM HAKAVUA SHELOY! THAT HE MUST LISTEN TO THE RABBIS OUTSIDE???
And after all, they did not allude to an open din in Shulchan Oruch that prohibits a certain practice belashon shel ISSUR but on the judgment of a certain beis din bemakom acher legamri! Are you saying that they have a koach of "bais din kavua for this issue?!?! Produce a pssak that writes this!
IN any event: In Jupiter they ruled athat it is EQUAL to BRING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL TO SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT LISTEN TO THE PSSAK YACHIDOF EYDAH HACHAREDIT! AND THIS IS EQUAL IN THE TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES AND THE CONTENT OF THE VIOLATIONS?!!?
tHIS CAN ONLY BE WRITTEN BY THE JUPITER KRUMLAND AND BY SOMEONE WHO EQUATES TROPPER TO CUKIERKORN AND SOME WHO STATES CUKIERKORN PEROBLEM IS ONLY "PRIOSETYZING"! VEIDOCH ZIL UGMOR!
mEKUBAL: "This leaves us in an awkward position where it seems to appear as though R' Tropper may be in violation of halacha by refusing the B"D. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he quite possibly has a good reason. However, it does appear bad, and thus something he should resolve with all haste'.
ReplyDeleterONI: nO IT DOES NOT APPEAR THIS at all! tO ANY RATIONAL PERSON, WHO SEES rAV rEVUEN feINSTEIN IS part of the organization and so many other rabbonim it seems clearly that rav tropper FOLLOWS A LOT OF RABBONIM AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THAT ARE MORE "KAVUA" IN PLACE THAN THE LOCAL BAIS DIN OF MEAH SHEARIM!
MEKUBAL :" All of that to say that both Rabbanim, like or not, are controversial subjects currently. Their actions, and in my opinion only their actions, are open for halachic debate. However, considering that both are chashuv rabbanim they both deserve to be treated with the utmost respect".
ReplyDeleteroNI: While in jupiter both are equally "controversial"; but in the real world, they are completly not in the same place: RB brings GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL Rav Tropper at worse did not follow to respond to one bais din when he has backing from other rabbis BUT AT WORSE DOES NOT BRING ONE GOY TO KLAL YISROEL! ONE WHO BRINGS GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL AFTER CONSTANT WARNING AS THE RABBIS WRITE IN THE LETTER HAS TO BE REPUDIATED AND AFTER HESTOPS ALL HIS MISDOINGS WE WILL GIVE THE RESPECT FOR THE GOOD DEEDS THAT HE DID IN THE REST OF HIS LIFE.
I did mistake one of RaP's posts for Roni's, that was my mistake, and I take responsibility.
ReplyDeleteIt should be noted that I did not, nor do I intend to read any of Roni's shouting. So in the above responses, he said only one thing of substance:
And after all, they did not allude to an open din in Shulchan Oruch that prohibits a certain practice belashon shel ISSUR but on the judgment of a certain beis din bemakom acher legamri! Are you saying that they have a koach of "bais din kavua for this issue?!?! Produce a pssak that writes this!
Yaskil Ovdi Choshen Mishpat, Vol. I, Siman 8
Chazon Ish Laws of Sanhedrin 15:7
Sefer Orchos Mishpat
Sefer Hilchot Dayyanim V'Eidut.
I have also heard this from R' Baruch Shraga
Then there is what is meforash in the Shulchan Aruch Ch"M 7:6.
It should also be noted that Roni refuses to give the respect to R' Bomzer that Gedolim who are much bigger than himself seem to feel that he deserves.
At least Roni seems to concede that Tropper misread the daf in Kiddushin, that is a start in the right direction.
It should also be noted that repeated attempts to have a civil conversation with Roni have failed. From this point forward I will also be skipping any insults, or references to other astrological bodies.
Please note that Roni's response to the Gemmarra Shteig was not posted at the time I wrote my response.
ReplyDeleteI find his response amusing. Yes Tropper murdered the Daf, but I am the Am Ha'aretz for pointing it out.
Was my original statement that Tropper needed to check his sources better accurate? Yes. The simple reason being that two other Rashis on the same page "contradict" that one. The Gilyon HaShas makes the point of stating that the last was not Shittat Rashi which Tropper claims it was.
REb Yid, after a simple question, you refer me to what?
ReplyDeleteThe question is:
a) where does it say that Bais Din Kavua from Jupiter can force someone from MArs to appear in front of them when in MArs there is another beis din kavua?
b) And bichlal, what is going on here? This is not about a *din torah* between two parties where all the halachos of choshem mishpat apply; we are dealing with an issue of issur veheter, where one Rabbi follows his rabbonim and where does it say *anywhere* in any of the sources you wrote that "bais din kavua" has got *anything* to do with this?
You wrote a lot of mareh mekomoss which i am not privy to them. If you produce them online we will benefir to see if they relate to any of the two above questions!
So far, the source of Shulchan Oruch that is clear for me to check HAS GOT NOTHING (but nothing) to do with the two questions raised above.
I'll quote them for the benefit of the onlookers:
Then there is what is meforash in the Shulchan Aruch Ch"M 7:6.
מי שתובעין אותו לדון לפני דיין שקטן ממנו, אין הדיין יכול לכופו לילך לפניו, אלא מכנפי מאן דאיכא התם מחכימי ח ט) ומעיינים בינייהו.
a) Where does he talk a- beis din kavua versus beis din kavua?
b) and it does not apply at all to issur beheter pssokim!
mekubal wrote: "It should also be noted that Roni refuses to give the respect to R' Bomzer that Gedolim who are much bigger than himself seem to feel that he deserves".
ReplyDeleteAnd it should be noted, that Roni explained to you, that Roni follows the majority of posskim who are bigger than RB (and certainly the whole crew of DT S) wrote the letter who did not offer that respect and the reason probably is for there is an obligation of "leafrushoh meissureh" and therefore they needed to be as clear as possible for his fake gerut and therefore I follow their pssak as I know of many similar cases of clear fraud in conversion leafrusheh meissureh.
after all the dust settles, and after years of wars and hotzooat shem rah vesheker and libel, the person comes out comparing not following the pseudo bais din kavua in a case of issur veheter to bringing shikssah to klal yisroel!
ReplyDeleteand also a misstatement and misrepresenation of what the "claraficiation" letter REALLY said!
ReplyDeleteLet me rephrase the whole matter of bais din kavua in three questions:
ReplyDelete1) does Bais din Kavua of one place have a power in a different continent?
2) Especially, if at the different there is another Bais Din KAvua?
3) And most important than all questions: Where does it begin to say that "bais din kavua" has *any* relevance regarding questionspertaining to "issur veheter" (yoreh deah) as opposed to diney torah of choshen mishpat?
Any reference would be apprecited if the text can be linked!
The Cohshen Mishpat 7:6 reference does not BEGIN to deal with any of the above!
Issur V'Heter was actually a sefer that extracted from the Shulchan Aruch only the laws of Kashrut(food). Thus the laws of Kashrut found within Yorah Deah have colloquially begun to be called Issur V'Heter.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the issues that a B"D has the right to rule on See Siman 1 of Choshen Mishpat. There you will find it explicitly spelled out, that marriages, divorces and conversions are within their purview.
R' Tropper is from the US, there is no B"D kavua in the US as has been stated in the iggros Moshe, Iggros Moshe Choshen Mishpat Vol iI end of siman 3).
The reference that I pointed you to in the Shulchan Aruch dealt with whether a Talmid Chochom, has the right to refuse a summons to appear before a B"D. If you had bothered to read the meforshim, especially the SM"A, you would have found that he does not even if he must travel a great distance.
What I find with you Roni is that whenever you begin to lose an argument halachically you begin to do two things. First is that you start to make personal attacks. Secondly you start an elaborate smoke and mirror show.
Sorry but I do not have digitized copies of these texts, and I have no intention to taking the time to type them in.
In the end R' Tropper is faced with a letter from a B"D telling him to cease and desist until such time as he can provide haskamot. This means two things.
1)First that his conversions are not universally accepted as any group that is part of the Eida, i.e. Satmar, Toldot Aharon, Bratslav, Belz and a few others, will see that this is geirut done in direct contradiction to the ruling of their B"D, and thus invalid.
2) It puts R' Tropper into an unenviable position of appearing to ignore a summons by a B"D. Which in itself considering that he is a Rosh Yeshiva ect. creates a Chillul HaShem and a serious issue of Marit Ayin as certainly people will come to think that if he pays no heed to the B"D neither do they need to.
"What I find with you Roni is that whenever you begin to lose an argument halachically you begin to do two things. First is that you start to make personal attacks. Secondly you start an elaborate smoke and mirror show".
ReplyDeleteThis is where I must state unequivocally that you are not qualified bichlal to deal with these issues in a way that gives any standing to attack someone for years.
You begin by stating that SHEKER ( as YOUR BLOG IS FULL WITH SHEKER AND HOTZOAT DIBOH) that I start to lose an argument halachiaklly". So far in the past eyar I think it is fair to say that I almost never lost to you an argument halachikally. If you would bring this to antalmud chochom outside of your sheker blog and ask him: who "won" the argument i would say that i won 9 to 1 and this does not entail any "Bragging" for you are not not a bar plugteh bichlal in these matters. So speak as if you are man deomar when you are NOT!
At the end of all your chollents you want to come with your krumme proposition that not turning to a BD in matters of issur veheter (a term that is known to any bar bvey rav dchad yomah it's meanign that it does not refer to the sefer issur veheter but issues relating to issur veheter) is EQUAL TO BRINGING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL! veidach zil gmor!
"Issur V'Heter was actually a sefer that extracted from the Shulchan Aruch only the laws of Kashrut(food). Thus the laws of Kashrut found within Yorah Deah have colloquially begun to be called Issur V'Heter".
ReplyDeleteRoni: IT is known to any ben torah when onesays "i'm learning issur veheter" he is not referring to the sefer issur veheter but to issues of isur veheter (like bassar bechalv hilchos nidah and the like).
"As far as the issues that a B"D has the right to rule on See Siman 1 of Choshen Mishpat. There you will find it explicitly spelled out, that marriages, divorces and conversions are within their purview".
ReplyDeleteI can't believe what I see in this guy's response: "marriages" where exactly is this lashon? do you need a BD to make a "marriage"? Do you need a BD to make "divorces"? Where do you find this in siman 1?
Conersions is obviously part of the purview of BD (as all our discussion revolves around HB not being wualified for a Bd for gerut) because the torah calls it MISHPAT! but aside from that? where do you find that *any* matter of niddah, bassar bechalav, or the chalot of kiddushin or get reuqires BD????
when Roni said:
ReplyDelete"I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR STUPIDOR A LIAR, BUT IN ANY EVENT NONE OF THIS MAKES YOU ELIGIBLE TO SMEAR ME THIS WAY!"
does that mean that poster "Roni" is none other than Rabbi Tropper himself?
http://warszawainfo24.pl/
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