Guest Post
Hi,
I followed your post and comments on hashgacha pratis the other day (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/09/g-d-reason-for-abuse-and-rape.html). This is a subject that I've been coming back to from various perspectives for nearly thirty years, so your post got me thinking once again. This time around, I'm having trouble with those rishonim and acharonim who are presented as believing in a virtually random, unguided fate for most people. For instance, you quote R' Dessler:
...all non-Jews and most Jews—except for some exception—they are without a doubt under the control of natural laws… This is no different than the animals whose Providence is not for the individual but only for the species—because it as a species they fulfill G-d’s will.
How would this fit the gemara in Brachos
כשם שמברכים על הטוב כך מברכים על הרעה?
Isn't the bracha an acknowledgement that all the good and bad things that happen to us are orchestrated directly by G-d. One look in Shulchan Aruch will tell us that this halacha relates equally to all Jews.
And how about
בארבעה פרקים העולם נידון בפסח על התבואה בעצרת על פירות האילן בר"ה כל באי
עולם עוברין לפניו כבני מרון?
According to the Ramban in Shar Hagemul this wasn't necessary a judgment over life and death, but over the general quality of life in the coming year – and it covered all strata of human life, not just tzadikim. I would imagine it would require a great deal of hashgacha to engineer precisely the good and bad events for each individual...
It's one thing to see a machlokus rishonim or acharonim, but who can argue with an explicit chazal? Perhaps there are other forces at play in the world besides hashgacha...maybe something like the “bracha” discussed by the Chofetz Chaim in Ahavas Chesed.
With best regards,
Boruch Clinton
Boruch, This is an ancient issue - no one "theory" fits all the "data point" of the maamarei chazal (sorry but I'm an actuary) - we each choose an approach that works for us and minimize the inconvenient maamarei chazal.
ReplyDeleteGmar Tov
Joel Rich
Joel,
ReplyDeleteThat's not how I learn rishonim: if the way I understand a Ramban or Rambam lies in conflict with a halachic gemara (and hilchos brachos are halachic) then I assume there's something missing with my understanding.
Naturally, midrashim can have multiple acceptable interpretations, but halacha must be more solid.
By the way, while taking a bit of a further look at Shulchan Aruch, I found Orech Chaim 230 5:
לעולם יהא אדם רגיל לומר כל מה דעביד רחמנא לטב עביד
...another (non-halachic) indicator from Chazal - although I suppose you could say that's aimed at tzadikim.
Regards,
Boruch,
ReplyDeleteI wish you hatzlacha! IMVVVVHO accepting that chazal were not of one mind of this issue is the more obvious resolution.
GT
Joel Rich
Hello again Joel (and by the way, being so soon after Yom Kippur, I do forgive you for being an actuary)
ReplyDeleteIMVVVVHO accepting that chazal were not of one mind of this issue is the more obvious resolution
In the apparent absence of any actual statement from Chazal supporting the "random/unguided" approach, that would seem a very unlikely scenario. They might takes sides in a machlokus, but I just can't see rishonim arguing with unanimity in Chazal.
I am aware of some admittedly imperfect attempts to resolve the problem that seem less troubled. For instance, some, working with the Ramban specifically, ascribe greater and more personal hashgacha to tzadikim rather than less to the rest of us. L'mashul, a tzadik is more likely to have a whole city turned upside down for him so he can make it to a chasuna in heavy traffic, while the rest of us, subject as we are to "mikreh", will be the chumps randomly caught in the jam.
Alternatively, R' Moshe Eisemann (also working with the Ramban) wrote that the mikreh afflicting the rest of us is only temporary, focused and generally rare...most of our lives are thus lived under hashgacha similar to that of a tzadik. The tzadik is different only in that his hashgacha is full-time.
As I said, however, these approaches don't appear to fit perfectly with the language of some rishonim (although, upon reflection, R' Eisemann's actually seems especially useful for the Chovos Halevavos at the beginning of Shar Bitachon).
Still looking for the unifying theory of everything...
BC
I think it is necessary to consider that some of the statements reflect not a theological or philosophical understand of Hashgocha Protis - but rather the attitude that is helpful for a Jewish society and which promotes religious feelings. In other words we are dealing with utilitarian statements.
ReplyDeleteStill looking for the unifying theory of everything...
ReplyDeleteBC
=======================
that's how the members of my chabura refer to me - the lonely man of faith searching for the TOE!
hatzlacha
GT
Joel Rich
I think it is necessary to consider that some of the statements reflect not a theological or philosophical understand of Hashgocha Protis - but rather the attitude that is helpful for a Jewish society and which promotes religious feelings. In other words we are dealing with utilitarian statements.
ReplyDelete================
R'DE- can you expand on this a bit?
BTW IIRC some argue these mirror differing opinions in the host galut society.
GT
Joel Rich
"In the apparent absence of any actual statement from Chazal supporting the "random/unguided" approach"
ReplyDeletethere may well be such supporting statements. one example, of the top of my head, is:
הכל בידי שמים חוץ מצינים פחים
another one:
"Rabbi Yochanan said: A man should never walk into a place of danger and say that a miracle will be performed for him, lest a miracle is not performed for him, and if a miracle is performed for him, it detract from his merits."
that is, he places himself in danger and derech hateva will run its course, if not for extra-special merit.
and in the danger posed to those who go to war, it is a machlokes (in Sifrei) between Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Yossi haGlili. R' Yossi haglili says there is no misa without sin, but Rabbi Akiva understands the psukim kemashmao.
I discuss some of these sources, albeit inadequately, here.
kol tuv,
josh
I found R' Dessler's discussion on Torah and Economic Endeavor in the end of michtav m'eliahu volume 2 more descriptive in its talking about 5 different levels of haschcoga directly proportional to a persons emuna/bitachon--IOW, it depends..
ReplyDeleteJoel Rich wrote:
ReplyDeleteDT wrote I think it is necessary to consider that some of the statements reflect not a theological or philosophical understand of Hashgocha Protis - but rather the attitude that is helpful for a Jewish society and which promotes religious feelings. In other words we are dealing with utilitarian statements.
================
R'DE- can you expand on this a bit?
Firstly there doesn't seem too have been a clear mesorah dealing with theological issues.
For example Chovas HaLevavos (Introduction): … Devarim (17:8): “For those things which you are unable to judge—whether between different types of blood, laws, impurities or disputes…you should act according to how the Sanhedrin instructs you.” When you look at the list of issues in this verse you find things that need to be specified, differentiated and evaluated on the basis of tradition—however not by logical proofs and rational evaluation. In fact, there is not a single issue that the Sanhedrin needs to deal with that could be resolved entirely by reliance on human reasoning. For example it doesn’t say that if you are in doubt about the nature of Gd unity, His names and characteristics, one of the foundation principles of faith such as serving Him, trusting Him, submitting to Him, dedicating your actions for His sake, freeing your good deeds from bad components, repenting sins, fearing Him and loving Him, being embarrassed in His presence, making an accounting for His sake, and other such things which can be determined purely on by the human intellect—that you should believe in them solely because of what the sages told you and simply rely on tradition without thinking. Therefore, the verse indicates that you should utilize your mind and your intellect concerning these matters—after you have mastered the knowledge of tradition…
Ramban (Shaar HaGemul #120 chapter 6): In conclusion a person should believe that all mishaps and calamities are the consequence of sin and transgression. He should repent on those sins that he knows about and those that he has forgotten about or wasn’t aware of, he should make a general confession. If he sees a tzadik suffering in spite of his righteousness he should assume it is because of the few sins that he has done. Similarly when he sees a wicked person have a pleasant life, he should ascribe it to the few good deeds that he has done…. Nevertheless, whether he knows or doesn’t know—it is necessary to accept that everything that Gd does is absolutely just and merciful—even though the justice and mercy might be hidden. You may ask us that since there is an element that is hidden in divine judgment and consequently that it is necessary to believe in His justice as the True Judge—why do you trouble us and require us to learn the various explanations of why the righteous suffer? Why not just simply rely totally on this principle that Gd is inherently righteous and therefore it is impossible that He commit an injustice—either on purpose or by inattention? The answer to this question is that this assertion that we should simply believe that Gd’s actions are righteous—without trying to understand how—is the view of fools that despise wisdom. We in fact greatly benefit by learning the various explanations because this is wisdom which helps us become wise men. By this endeavor we also increase our knowledge of Gd through understanding His conduct and deeds. Furthermore we will have faith and have trust in our faith—in both the known and the concealed matters—more than other people. That is because we in fact learn about the nature of the concealed matters from that which is knowable. This intellectual involvement leads us to know the righteousness of Divine Judgment and the justness of His Law. Thus it is the obligation of everyone who worships Gd from love and fear to search his mind to justify Gd’s justice and to validate His decisions the limit of his ability. The explanations, of course, need to be based upon the approach of our Sages as we have already explained. Consequently he will have peace of mind concerning these issues by validating the judgment of Gd to the best of his ability. He will then be able to generalize from what he knows to that which he can’t comprehend—especially with the secret that was mentioned previously. He will find that he no longer has any doubts and questions. On the other hand, even if he doesn’t want to go through all this analysis it is legitimate just to accept that whatever Gd does is just.
ReplyDeleteRamban (Shaar HaGemul #118): To conclude the topic of suffering: It is proper for a person who experienced any mishap or calamity to believe that it is the result of his sins. He should repent for the sins that he is aware of and should confess in general for those he doesn’t remember… If he sees a tzadik who dies as a tzadik, he should try to attribute it to the small number of sins that he committed. Similar one should assume that the tranquility of a wicked person is the result of some good deeds he might have done. If that explanation is not satisfactory because of the apparent greatness of the tzadik his outstanding merit, total freedom from sin and pure heart then he should realize that this is not readily answered about another person…. He should assume however that ultimately the righteous person will be justly rewarded for his righteousness…or that it involves the secret of transmigration of souls… In any case he should believe that there is righteousness, goodness and correct judgment in Gd’s decisions—even though it might be concealed from him…. All of this is appropriate for every intelligent person to think about in order to understand how Gd runs the world and His goodness with all His creatures. It is also critical that everyone understand the need to accept chastisement in the form of suffering. Nevertheless after saying all this, the question of why the righteous suffer still remains because we lack the ability to see events in its full context. In addition we typically don’t investigate the facts fully. We simply focus on the question of how this person got what he deserved in light of the fact that Gd gives everyone what he deserves. In fact we see tzadikim who are killed while studying Torah or while they are fasting and praying with great fervor. Some people are born without organs and limbs. Some die before the age of 20 and yet were tzadikim who devoted their short lives to studying Torah and doing mitzvos. How could they deserve the punishment to die at the hand of Heaven which isn’t applicable until after the age of 20?… The suffering of the righteous Job is another case which is difficult to understand. So is the story of Rabbi Akiva whose Torah was so great and yet died in such a horrible way. Much more common are the cases of the wicked who enjoy peace and prosperity. Nevertheless the validity of the problem of suffering of the righteous and the peace of the wicked is independent upon whether it is rare or common. Our concern is not with man per se…but our questions are directed to Gd whose deeds are just without any failing. It appears that the Rambam that the issue of the prosperity of the wicked did not bother him since that is simply a manifestation of Gd’s kindness. The principle uncertainty concerns the suffering of the righteous. The Rambam asserts that the world is inherently kindness and that the suffering and calamities are typically either part of nature or created by man. He views that the only suffering and death from Heaven is for sin. This is true with the addition of what we have written and alluded to already. Blessed is he who knows the true and righteous Judge
ReplyDeleteJosh,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
>there may well be such supporting statements. one example, of the top of my head, is:
הכל בידי שמים חוץ מצינים פחים
another one:
>"Rabbi Yochanan said: A man should never walk into a place of danger and say that a miracle will be performed for him, lest a miracle is not performed for him, and if a miracle is performed for him, it detract from his merits."
etc.,
Interesting examples. I'm not sure they help me though:
I don't think anyone argues that there is no teva at all and that everything that happens to us is an active miracle (or at least no one who would read this blog). Rather, it's that God sometimes does interfere and is always ready to do so when His hashgacha requires it.
Thus, if a person is careless enough not to take precautions in bad weather (see Tosafos to the "מצינים פחים" gemara in Kesuvos) or if he does something else that's unecessarily dangerous, God might, under the circumstances, simply decide not to interfere. But that's not the same as saying that we're completely beneath His radar and that even in theory there's no interference.