Attackers not chareidim
http://www.kikar.net/article.php?id=5223
Nachum Barnea is a noted columnist etc. He was there, said that the attackers were not charedim, did have black kipas but clothing was not charedi. Also after the driver climbed out of the car no one attacked him, only argued and cursed. so... listen to the recording.
[Title of post corrected and Haaretz's version deleted]
Jerusalem Post
In the latest development in an ongoing series of violent incidents, a group of haredim attacked an Arab taxi on Tuesday night at 2 a.m.
The attack was seen as an act of revenge after another cab driver, purported to be an Arab as well, hit a haredi protester with his taxi while speeding through the area during riots on Sunday night.
Shmuel Poppenheim, a spokesman for the Eda Haredit, said his organization was opposed to the use of violence, especially against non-Jews.
The Eda Haredit is opposed to the Zionist movement and the establishment of the State of Israel in part because of its use of violence against non-Jews, which is seen as dangerous incitement and a revolt against God.
Poppenheim instead blamed members of a yeshiva for newly religious men affiliated with a stream of Breslav Hassidism.
"Those guys look haredi because they dress like haredim but they aren't," said Poppenheim. "They are responsible for all the violence. We are not a violent people."
Poppenheim said that the head of the yeshiva had a "strange messianic" justification for using violence against non-Jews which is diametrically opposed to the Eda Haredit's way.[...]
As I wrote on my blog, everybody picks and chooses. These primitives may eat the most mehadrin min mehadrin meat and hold by every last Shabbos chumrah but they ignore kovod habriyos and don't seem to care about the chilul HaShem they're causing. Plus every moment they're out rioting there's the issue of bitul Torah. So they're picking and choosing.
ReplyDeleteTrouble is, we often criticize the Reformers and Conservatives for picking choosing, right? Like, they enjoy doing tzedakah but they don't keep Shabbos, they worry about bikur cholim but not about taharas mishpachah.
And now think about it: their version of picking and choosing is a lot more civilized, isn't it. So why do we criticize them again?
Actually I think the picking and choosing in this case was done by Haaretz. They seemingly neglected to mention that a Jewish man, in Geula, a part of what most refer to as Mea Shearim, was stabbed to death by a Palestinian on Sunday.
ReplyDeleteThat police then critically wounded a Chareidi Jew who was protesting the desecration of the body by denying it speedy burial and taking it for an autopsy which many poskim are against.
Futhermore the demonstrations, which were not riots, I had to walk through them going to the various celebrations of the Hilulah of the Ben Ish Hai, so I know that they were not riots. The demonstrations were actually in protest of the desecration of the body which still has not been buried.
While I do not condone violence, but considering most people in the city knew what was going on, I have to wonder what in the world a Palestinian taxi driver was thinking or smoking when he decided to enter into that situation.
I also have to wonder why the press decided to ignore those facts and report this as part of a demonstration against the Karta parking issue.
While I do not condone violence--
ReplyDeleteI once heard the saying, anything before but is a lie.
This is pure achzarius. Did the news, like usual, forget context? So what!
If you want to argue that the story isn't true, fine, I would hope your right. But nothing else matters.
For an even more outrageous version of events please check the article on Vos Iz Neias which in essence is the story that is being carried world wide by The associated foreign press.
ReplyDeleteEssentially weave Israeli society, at least in the heart of Jerusalem is coming undone, and the press is doing its best to pull at the threads.
mekubal said...
ReplyDeleteFor an even more outrageous version of events please check the article on Vos Iz Neias which in essence is the story that is being carried world wide by The associated foreign press.
Essentially weave Israeli society, at least in the heart of Jerusalem is coming undone, and the press is doing its best to pull at the threads.
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Are you trying to say that the demonstrators - the ones who don't listen to the Bedatz and the Toldos Avrahma Yitzchok Rebbe regarding how and where to have demonstrations - are really big tzadikim?
They are bums who are out to have some fun.
Where do you get that I am saying they are Tzadikim? What I am saying is that considering the obviously conflicting reports in the media, for me it puts the entire story into question. There is a large difference between stone throwers and no one hurt, to axe-wielding madmen where the guy barely escapes with his life. To which I have to say, all things considered, Is any of it true?
ReplyDeleteSecondly I didn't realize the Badatz and Toldot Avrahma Yitzchok had issued statements about where to protest the desecration of the body... just the parking lot. My own Roshei Yeshivot have banned their students from taking part in any sort of demonstration whatsoever... a ban that I personally follow. However, please enlighten us as to where the Eida Chareidis feels that Jews should be demonstrating concerning the autopsy issue.
What I am saying that outlandish media stories only serve to exacerbate the issue. Also that while the ways in which it is expressed are reprehensible, I can understand the anger of a community who has had one of their own slain, and not yet allowed to bury him. Ultimately that is a severe halachic issue.
@Garnel Ironheart,
ReplyDeleteWhy do you condemn all Chareidi Jews for the acts of a few idiots?
Hey what happened to my Daas Torah blog, you know, the one that is about making Torah accessible and discussing elevated concepts, instead of circulating the narishkite tabloid headlines that are the way of other nations.
ReplyDeleteAre we talking about the halachot of protests? Kaved haBriot? I saw a video of a taxi slam into innocent, unsuspecting protesters. How come that video doesn't get posted? Then we can talk about the importance of preemptive strikes and self-defence, and what situations warrant it.
Spiritual Dan said...
ReplyDeleteHey what happened to my Daas Torah blog, you know, the one that is about making Torah accessible and discussing elevated concepts, instead of circulating the narishkite tabloid headlines that are the way of other nations.
Are we talking about the halachot of protests? Kaved haBriot? I saw a video of a taxi slam into innocent, unsuspecting protesters. How come that video doesn't get posted? Then we can talk about the importance of preemptive strikes and self-defence, and what situations warrant it.
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I think you have been reading the wrong blog. Haven't posted anything which suggests that it is a good idea to create a massive chillul hashem in the name of Yiddishkeit.
I have never been interested in a Yiddishkeit driven by the rabble and bums who do not seek rabbinic guidance.
I am also not aware of any respected authority that says that lynching randomly chosen cab drivers is a legitimate response to an alleged incident involving a cab!
What the hell are you talking about!
Tzoorba, I am certainly NOT condemning all Chareidi Jews, just those who are rioting.
ReplyDeleteThis is my point about the media exacerbating a bad situation. The stories have gone from an axe-wielding mob attempting to lynch someone. A stone throwing mob of Chareidim trying to lynch someone. A stone throwing mob of Baalei Teshuvot dressed like Chareidim trying to lynch someone(as quouted from the Jpost article in the OP, which is quoting the spokesperson for the Eidah). Then the Eidah is quoted in another Haaretz piece linked on this blog in the Eidah issues new guidlines for protests as saying it was a bunch of marginalized youths. Now it is people who were wearing black yarmulkes but not dressed like Chareidim, and not Chareidim.
ReplyDeleteTo be clear, the people involved in this incident are bums and hooligans that are taking advantage of the legitimate angst of a people to carry out reprehensible acts, and in doing so are only serving to besmirch the Chareidi population.
The Chareidi population is getting a serious black eye from all of this. The headline story that went around the world was about axe-wielding blood-thirsty Chareidim attempting a lynching, as I linked above. The Israeli press also bought into the attempted lynching angle, but their the Chareidim were simply trying to stone a guy.
Now that the truth is finally starting to come out, it is found quite frankly in sources that the majority of the world will never read, or buried so deep into a news piece that most will never put 2 and 2 together.
Who are the actual victims here? Yes I feel for the guy who will have to put out cash to fix the windows in his car. However, the Chareidim suffer the most. They have now been portrayed as maniacal fanatics. It will be a long time before that impression wears away. In the minds of the secular and non-Chareidi public the image of Chareidim has been tarnished. As much as I blame the hooligans, I also blame the media. They are equally culpable. Their lack of integrity and seeking the truth lead to these outlandish stories.
Honestly if a bunch of vandals in Tel Aviv were to smash windows out of a car, would it be termed an attempted lynching by the secular public? Would it make international news? However, if a bunch of vandals do so in a religious neighborhood such as Mea Shearim, it is a vengeance motivated attempted lynching. Even when the police deny that is the case, the papers and media outlets don't even have the courtesy to print an easily findable retraction. In fact I haven't been able to find a retraction at all. So while these hooligans vandalized one man's car, they vandalized the reputation of 700,000 citizens of this nation.
@ Garnel Lionheart,
ReplyDeleteIf you are talking about a fringe few, your analogy of Reform and Conservative doesn't apply.
Why delve so deeply into the motives of an unhinged fringe?
Daas - shame on you. You have gone from reporting hyperbolae to now stating it as fact. There was no LYNCHING of ANYONE. The cab driver didn't even file a police report. It seems his vehicle was damaged. Do we know how and where the vehicle was being driven, was it being used as a weapon, and so on. I'm not justifying the acts, but let's talk elevated about the halacha.
ReplyDeleteBut to reiterate, there was no lynching of anyone.
Spiritual Dan said...
ReplyDeleteAre we talking about the halachot of protests? Kaved haBriot? I saw a video of a taxi slam into innocent, unsuspecting protesters. How come that video doesn't get posted? Then we can talk about the importance of preemptive strikes and self-defense, and what situations warrant it.
Spiritual Dan said...
Daas - shame on you. You have gone from reporting hyperbolae to now stating it as fact. There was no LYNCHING of ANYONE. The cab driver didn't even file a police report. It seems his vehicle was damaged. Do we know how and where the vehicle was being driven, was it being used as a weapon, and so on. I'm not justifying the acts, but let's talk elevated about the halacha.
But to reiterate, there was no lynching of anyone.
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You are mixing two issues together. Your first posting was a defense of what at that time was reporting as a lynching. There is no justification for a lynching.
Then your later post states there was no lynching. The bums who were rioting have no chezkas kashrus. They have been condemned by Rav Sternbuch and others. The fact that in this case they were not guilty of attempting lynching doesn't require me to give them the benefit of the doubt. According to everyone the car was smashed up. I don't need to devote effort to justify their actions.
To summarize we have fringe elements who have been condemned by respected rabbinic authorities. There is no need to try to justify their behavior especially when it involves violence and damage to property. Even after acknowledging the events were not as serious as first reported - they are not people to respect. Simply read Rav Sternbuch's interview on VIN
Why in the world would we want to justify their actions? Their actions have cast shame and disgrace on a population that is not their own. Shame on them. That R' Sternbuch should need to take time to distance the Chareidi world from these vandals. Not only has their actions caused a huge motzei shem ra as it is still reported on VIN and other places that they were axe-wielding Chareidim that did this. Which we now see is a huge lie. It wasn't even Chareidim!!!
ReplyDeleteNo it didn't stop there. Their actions stole Torah from Gedolim like R' Sternbuch, and thus Klal Yisrael. Instead of being able to review a few more dapim, R' Sternbuch, granted for the good of Klal Yisrael, had to steal time away from his learning to denounce these thugs, and defend the name of religious Jews.