Igros Moshe (YD IV #36.12) ) Question: What is typically the reason to become a doctor? Answer The reason that people want to become doctors in modern times and even in previous times more than two hundred years for the sake of parnossa is not because it is fitting for his nature. Rather it is typically for the high status that it is perceived by ordinary Jews and non Jews. Medicine is inherently not only parnossa but also high status. Thus it has no connection to the view of Chovas Halevavos that everyone has an innate desire for a specific type of job or business. Therefore he says if a person is strongly attracted to a particular type of work and he can do it competently he should do it for the sake of parnossa. This rule only applies to a profession that a person is naturally attracted to do. and not for external reasons of great honor and wealth that it produces. The reason it is not a natural profession because the world was not created with a need for it since people initially did not become sick. Even though death was decreed on the first day immediately after Adam ate from the HaDaas, nevertheless there was no sickness until Yakov prayed for weakness. And still there was no sickness until Elisha who prayed for a cure.
There are people who work with cholim all day and get paid poorly. They are called nurses.
ReplyDeleteActually many people want parnassah and respect.
There was an old woody Allen joke where he meets a young lady (eg shidduch) and she asks him what he does, so he says he's a writer
She turns him down.
Next time he meets a lady, he says he's a dentist - and she is very interested.
Rav Moshe seems to be making the argument that hishtaneh hateva, that psychology and economics have changed. But fundamentally they are the same.
Rambam says it's the way of the fool to get married and then think about parnassah and building a house.
People who are science orientated will choose based on their interest and capabilities in a subject.
So Rav tendler studied biology. Rav triebitz physics.
Norman lamm _ chemistry. Rav eidensohn shlita _ psychology.
Even in medicine there are different branches. People with real strength in the science pursue a specialism.
It's true there are vain people who are not good scientists and only do the job as a career.
It's true that the Gemara berates doctors.
Unfortunately the science of medicine is not perfect and it can attract psychopaths. But halacha also says it's assur to live without access to a doctor
.
How can this actually be a halachic teshuva?
ReplyDeleteIt seems he is looking at the Hovot halevavot to exclude medicine as a natural career.
There may have been a time in the 1950s when medicine was a high paid career. But now it's really the private doctors who are well paid.
But lawyers, finance careers are much better paid.
There is likely a culture of smugness and gaava in many professions.
He probably met more Doctors than any other secular professions.
Maybe a physicist or astronomer would be more humble if he ever met one.
"The reason it is not a natural profession because the world was not created with a need for it since people initially did not become sick."
ReplyDeleteWhen the Torah was given, people got sick, and the Torah mentions diseases in several contexts.
Rambam wrote that flying an aircraft is impossible
So should we not fly today? Is it assur to work in aviation because originally there were no planes?
ReplyDeletenevertheless there was no sickness until Yakov prayed for weakness. And still there was no sickness until Elisha.
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When Isaac was old and his eyes were so weak that he could no longer see, he called for Esau his older son and said to him, “My son.” “Here I am,” he answered
ל וַתְּהִי שָׂרַי, עֲקָרָה: אֵין לָהּ, וָלָד. 30 And Sarai was barren; she had no child
DeleteHe's arguing there's no sickness mentioned in the Torah, therefore there was no disease in nature. But absence of mention doesn't mean something didn't exist.
ReplyDeleteThe plagues in Egypt included boils on animals and people.
The curses in Devarim mention a lot of diseases.
More importantly, if the theorem above is to be analysed,
The Torah suggests that it is not correct:
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be.
The Torah is attesting to species of disease not mentioned in the text itself
“‘Furthermore,’ continued Reb Moshe, ‘if running up the stairs takes more time than the elevator or leaves you panting and may thus interfere with your ability to properly evaluate the patient’s problem, you have not observed the Sabbath at all but transgressed the commandment of healing on the Sabbath’” (F. Rosner, Pioneers in Jewish Medical Ethics. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1997).
ReplyDeleteSo if there's a mitzvah of healing, even on Shabbat, is it still assur for Jews to learn medicine?
https://mishpacha.com/halachic-arbiter-in-a-medical-maze/
"Doctors are just in it for the money" is on the same level as "Yeshiva teachers aren't interested in fondling their students"
ReplyDeleteEveryone is in it for the money - except for "us" or our group
DeleteWhy are talmidei chachamim given money to learn?
ReplyDeleteThe reason is to remove the burden of real world struggles from them.
Many of these become rabbis and talk about bitachon and how bad learning a profession is.
Bitachon is important but it's not in books. It has to be learned from a guide.
Parnassah is a struggle for almost everyone .
Question is why do rabbis want to make life harder than it already is?
The closest parallel in the secular world to kollel is graduate studies in universities. Again you have a bunch of people who are pursuing their passions in research and learning.
DeleteThe major differences are (1) the PhD students pay tuition, they don't sit back and say "My thesis in ancient Armenian basket weaving is what makes this an enlightened society so society owes me a living (2) they eventually have to either come up with a thesis and defend it or leave the university and go out into the real world and get a job or sign up for welfare. There is no Eternal PhD Program where the student is never expected to produce anything or show any signs of accomplishment.
Kollel'niks who finish a degree of sorts in an area of halakha and then take jobs as mashgichim or teachers? Fine. But the ones who think it's their birthright to live off eveyrone else's hard earned money while telling the suckers how privileged they are to support them? Parasites.
And they want to make life harder because it justifies their existence. Just like you can't talk to God without the intermediary of The Tzaddik(tm), so too you couldn't possibly understand the halakha without the help of these guys. In a way, they're like lawyers, making the system more complex all the time to ensure that they're become indispensible.
there is some sort of vestigial remains of a once more open Judaism - that a Rabbi can get a salary for his time , to cover what he could be making as doctor or lawyer, or professor.
DeleteNotice it is not how much he would make in a low paying job eg a taxi driver, or a factory worker. So the college degree and profession is bad, and wicked, but it is also the going rate for compensation you get since you are not allowed to use Torah as a tool to make money from.
All this misses a much more important issue.
DeleteWhat is the life objective of a Jew? Is it to be an ethical person in line with the God's ethics as given in the Torah and to develop a strong connection with God, or is it to have as much Torah memorized as possible?
The message that seems to be coming out of all these excerpts from Rav Moshe, zt"l, as well as repeated statements from current day Gedolim(tm) is that it's the latter. Human decency, self-reliance and productivity so you can contribute to society and help build it up, helping the poor and needy never seem to get mentioned. It seems to be all about how many pages of Talmud you've memorized.
Who's the real Bnei Torah? The guy who learns when he can but also holds down a decent job, contributes generously to his local charities and spends time teaching his children about how God loves them, or the guy in the kollel who lives off that charity and bases his love for his kids on their cheder rebbe's assessment of how much chumash they know by heart?
Of course it is only to learn!
DeleteBut this group of teshuvot seem to have a particular agenda. There are other areas when for example, a husband has an obligation to provide for his family. That's in the contract.
Rav DT raised a point that not all the responsa are consistent, and example was aluminium pots.
There's an excerpt from Dr Fred rosner's book, where Rav Moshe is quoted as telling him it's permitted to use the elevator on Shabbat as it's part of the mitzvah of saving lives on Shabbat.
DeleteI don't think Rosner is lying.
I also don't accept Rav Bleich assertion that posthumous teshuvot are not valid halacha.
"What is the life objective of a Jew? "
DeleteAvraham Avinu was very successful and rich, from his farming enterprise. Rambam tries to minimise this, by saying that the only reason he became rich was to relieve him of worldly burdens so he could exclusively concentrate on Torah learning.
Which is clearly a fudge of the truth as per the Torah itself.
Rav Bleich's assertion about poshumous teshuvos is limited. It only applies to ones that contradict what he thinks the posek should've written. In a way, it's similar to Rav Moshe's use of "Must be a forgery!" to explain away teshuvos that didn't answer the question the way he wanted them to.
DeleteAs for Avraham Avinu, a"h, we could explain that he was very wealthy and that wealth itself generated further wealth without him needing to be directly involved, just his many servants.
Rav Bleich mentions a concept of Hamon anshei torateinu - the view of Torah people. So he prefers the safety of existing opinions and to be in company of good Gedolim.
DeleteHaving said that, on a one to one level I found him to be more open and rational than in some of the big debates he's been involved in.
Some people say you shouldn't shop around for a posek but everyone does that anyway.
Having read his Contemporary Halakha books, I've seen the evolution in his style over time from an extremely well-informed rationalist willing to present both sides of a legal debate with copious sources to a less balanced presenter who still brings lots of sources to support his (Chareidi-supporting) position while dismissing the other position as irrelevant (despite it having just as much support in the halakhic literature).
DeleteI wonder if it's because presenting a balanced view and both sides of a debate is just so out of fashion in the UO world.
But this is halacha!
DeleteIf you examine a sample of Rav Moshe's teshuvas, he generally is great enough to give leniencies. But occasionally he will step down and give a very strict ruling. Why is this? It is a mirror image of what Rav Shternbuch said. Rav Moshe had a reputation for leniencies, but in order to NOT get rejected, he would have to give a Chumra. There is also the question of timeline. in the 50s, he was not yet considered Gadol Hador, - that was with Rav Aaron ztl and then Rav Henkin ztl. Once he becomes the recognized Posek hador and head of Aguda moetzes gedolim - he has to take a broader position which means satisfying the wider Hareidi and yeshiva world - ie to be more machmir.
In a sense, Rav Bleich yibadel l'chaim is in the same pattern, except he has always had a telos or method, to bring a few views, then choose the more strict or frum opinion.
Even Rav Daniel Sperber, who has stayed radical or even become more radical - when i first saw him in the 90s in israel, he was sitting at a panel with big figures in the DL world, Rav Simcha Kook, Rav Yaakov Ariel, rav Riskin. They were wearing suits, (Black, Black, and blue respectively) whilst Sperber was wearing a short sleeved coloured checkered shirt - like a kibbutznik. Now he wears a long black coat like a Dayan.