This is a trend that is only bound to continue as Aliya from America and Britain grows, how will the Hashkofas and influence of the relatively more "liberal" American graduates of Charedi yeshivos effect life of Charedim in Israel? In the past the native Charedim of Israel have required American Charedi Olim and Baalei Teshuva to submit to Israeli Charedi directives and standards and lifestyles. But this is a new challenge coming from the other side, it will not stop because there are lots more like Dov Lipman where it's coming from, it was bound to happen sooner or later and now it has, yet again.
In the past Israeli Charedim put down literary challenges from relatively moderate Western Charedi rabbis such as banning the books of Rabbis Noson Kaminetsky ("Making of a Gadol") and Noson Slifkin (the "Zoo Rabbi"), but now similar personalities are entering the political arena and creating political alliances with secular politicians and parties. Americans are PRAGMATISTS and LIBERALS (in the broadest political sense not in the narrow pejorative meaning) and they adhere and love the PRAGMATIC and OPEN way of politics and lifestyle. Americans CANNOT be dictated to, they adhere by the rules of COMPROMISE. This is something new to Israel which is more IDEOLOGICAL, RIGID and FANATICAL and it has the media and Israelis, both secular and Charedi very confused.
One of the curious developments of the last election in Israel is that the Yesh Atid party that won 19 Knesset sets, has on its lists at least two rabbis, one of them being a young American oleh: "[Wikipedia]: Dov Lipman (Hebrew: דב ליפמן, born 7 July 1971) is an Israeli rabbi, author and politician. A member of Yesh Atid, he was placed seventeenth on the party's list for the 2013 Knesset elections.Born in Silver Spring, Maryland, Lipman attended the Yeshiva of Greater Washington in his hometown and completed his rabbinical studies at Yeshivas Ner Yisroel in Baltimore while in a concurrent program with the Johns Hopkins University, where he earned a master's degree in Education. He immigrated to Israel in 2004."
But now Lipman has taken his cause to the Knesset and as reported by the Times of Israel (February 13, 2013), Lipman makes some radical statements, "taking the fight" to his Israeli Charedi Hashkafic opponents in UTJ: Times of Israel
In maiden speech: US-born MK calls on ultra-Orthodox to serve country
Quoting Torah sources, first American expat legislator in 30 years exhorts Haredim to embrace army service and join labor market
MK Rabbi Dov Lipman, the first American-born Israeli member of parliament in 30 years, delivered his inaugural Knesset speech Wednesday, recalling his family’s immigration to Israel eight years ago and urging the ultra-Orthodox community to give up its opposition to the universal draft and to join the workforce.
Quoting sources from the Torah and biblical commentators about the value of work and the need for soldiers to protect the nation, Lipman (Yesh Atid) exhorted the Haredi parties to accept proposals that end blanket draft exemptions for yeshiva students and encouraged them to join the army and/or participate in some sort of national service.
“Everyone, including yeshiva students, is obligated to contribute to the state through military or civil service,” the 41-year-old Maryland native said in perfect Hebrew but with a thick American accent. “I am proud to be an MK for a party that has a visionary leader who understands the time has come to restore the true Jewish tradition, which combines Torah with work.”
Lipman, who received rabbinic ordination from Baltimore’s Orthodox Ner Israel Rabbinical College, then turned to his fellow Haredi MKs and called on them to cooperate with his party’s plan to introduce universal conscription. “There is no ‘we’ and ‘you.’ There are no two sides. We are brothers; we’re all Jews,” he said.
Most Haredim know full well that their children will not be able to exclusively study Torah all their lives, he said, adding that pious Jews in the US combine rigorous religious study with university education and the pursuit of a livelihood. “There is no contradiction between the two.”
Lipman, who is known in the English-speaking Israeli community for his activism against Haredi extremism in his hometown of Beit Shemesh, devoted a significant portion of his 12-minute speech to his family’s aliya experience...
After his speech, several MKs from Yesh Atid and other parties rose to their feet and congratulated Lipman. Many male legislators hugged Lipman, while his female colleagues handed him flowers, respecting the belief of ultra-Orthodox men they are not allowed to touch women.
As is customary for an incoming MK’s maiden speech, Lipman was lauded by a fellow lawmaker from a different party upon concluding his remarks.
MK Isaac Herzog (Labor) praised Lipman for his activism in Beit Shemesh and said he viewed Lipman as a continuation of MKs who represent English-speaking Jews in the Knesset, including his late father Haim Herzog (who was born in Belfast) and his uncle Abba Eban (who was born in Cape Town.)
“You represent a very important stream in the Jewish world, that of Haredim from English-speaking countries who follow in the footsteps of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, of blessed memory and many other great rabbis, which understands the synthesis of the modern world and its complexities and Judaism in the widest and deepest sense,” Herzog said. “It’s a difficult and very complicated challenge.”
So AT THIS POINT IN TIME, here are some questions for Rabbi Dov Lipman: Who does Rabbi Dov Lipman REALLY speak for? The Ner Yisroel Yeshiva in Baltimore he got semicha from? The Agudas Yisroel of America that Ner Yisroel is part of?? For All American Charedim in Israel? Some? None? Crucially, how does Lipman reconcile his status within a party led by Yair Lapid who wants to impose even more draconian and radical changes on the Israeli Charedi world such as accepting Reform and Conservative Judaism and their conversions and "rabbis"?? As Isaac Herzog, stated, it's a big challenge but it will not stop. A new age is dawning in Israel, but what kind? One of more problems or with more solutions? More Kiddush HaShem or more Chillul HaShem?? No one really seems to know right now, but we can all actually feel the Earth shifting seismically below us. No doubt it!
If you look at the demographics of Jewish population and the Charedi sector over the past 50 years, in both Israel and the West, there has been a growth of Chareidi sector. Presumably this is due to freedom in the west, and an end of Pogroms. The community has been able to isolate itself from assimilation trends of the previous century. B'H with large families there are growing numbers of frum people, and of course the large BT influx.
ReplyDeleteThe economics of this cannot support the old model where everyone can learn in yeshiva. This isn't historically correct - was not the case in Europe, and as the population continues to grow will be more difficult to sustain.
In any case, the Chazon Ish's era had fewer yeshivot and they were then a minority in Israel.
There is also a risk, which is the problem of success. The larger the population, the harder it is to impose draconian halachic and super-halachic measures. If Mea Shearim/ bet shemesh dictator types try to do this, there will be a backlash, which could lead to violence, assimilation, etc. This extremism could lead to another haskalah movement.
perhaps this is why Chazal said that promulgating a Gezeira that the majority cannot keep is forbidden. This is precisely what extremism is, ie they simply ignore the public, and rely on their own authority to make as many rules as they can.
Here's how Lipman's maiden Knesset speech was reported in
ReplyDeletekikarhashabat.co.il:
ה"חרדי" של לפיד בנאום בכורה: לעבוד זה חלק מתרי"ג מצוות
ח"כ דב ליפמן, הנציג החרדי של יאיר לפיד במפלגת 'יש עתיד', עלה היום לדוכן הכנסת ונשא את נאום הבכורה שלו כח"כ מן המניין, בו התמקד בשילוב חרדים בעבודה ובצבא (חדשות) ח"כ דב ליפמן, הנציג החרדי של יאיר לפיד במפלגת 'יש עתיד', עלה היום לדוכן הכנסת ונשא את נאום הבכורה שלו כח"כ מן המניין, בו התמקד בשילוב חרדים בעבודה ובצבא
ישי כהן
13.02.13
חבר-הכנסת דב ליפמן, הנציג החרדי של יאיר לפיד במפלגת 'יש עתיד', עלה היום (רביעי) לדוכן הכנסת ונשא את נאום הבכורה שלו כח"כ מן המניין.
ליפמן פתח את נאומו עם סיפור העלייה שלו לארץ: "לפני שמונה שנים, אני ואשתי לקחנו את ארבעת ילדינו, חיבקנו את הורינו, ואמרנו שלום לכל בני המשפחה
והחברים ועלינו על טיסת עולים חדשים מארצות הברית התיישבנו במקומותינו והקברניט התחיל לתת פרטים על הטיסה. בסיום דבריו הוא אמר: "תנוחו, תירגעו ותהינו מהטיסה. אני לוקח אתכם הביתה".
"אני לוקח אתכם הביתה', אחרי אלפיים שנה היינו בדרך הביתה - לארץ ישראל, למדינת ישראל. הגענו עם רוח של ציונות, ותקווה לחיים יהודיים טובים יותר. החלטנו לעזוב את ארצות הברית, מתוך בחירה להיות חלק ממפעל היהדות הציונית- מדינת ישראל. מצאנו מדינה מדהימה ומיוחדת, אבל אי אפשר להתעלם מהבעיות שיש לנו פה בבית", אמר ליפמן.
בהמשך דבריו חזר ליפמן למאבק שהיה שותף לו בבית שמש נגד 'הדרת נשים', ואמר כי היו כאלו בציבור החרדי שראו את המאבק הזה כמאבק בציבור החרדי כולו: "כשנאבקתי בבית שמש על ביטחון וזכויות של כלל התושבים, ספגתי קללות, חטפתי יריקות, נרגמתי באבנים ואפילו קיבלתי איומים על חיי. כל אלה כאבו לי מאוד. אך יותר מכל, כאב לי לדעת שזה בא מיהודים אחרים".
Note how Lipman is referred to as "Lapid's Charedi"! But it is emotional to read how he left the USA and made Aliya to Israel full of idealims, only to eventually be physically beaten by Charedi fanatics when he tried to stop the abuse of others at the hands of Israeli Charedi bullies. Lipman is typically American optimistic and irrepressible.
So the question is which trend is more authentic and defensible? Is Lipman's reaction to fanatical violence a worthy one?
DeleteAs I mentioned above, this trend of fanaticism is driving away many decent people from the Charedi world view.
If the fanaticisim succeeds in keeping more people frum and made more frum people satisfied with their yiddishkeit - than it drives away - would you be an advocate for it? If your answer is no than why add your last sentence?
DeleteIt's a question of which sector's we refer to as "frum", what we mean by fanaticism.
DeleteI refer to the fanatics, who attack women, throw stones (including at R' Elyashiv ztl and R' Shteinman Shlita) etc.
This, I believe to be anti-halachic and un-frum. I am not talking about the different theologies of Satmar vs R ' Kook.
And, what I am in favour of doesn't really count. I am suggesting that there are changes brought about by growth of populations, diversity of people's backgrounds, which are causing these movements - whether I like them or not.
Of course, we go back to the question of what is more "authentic". The answer is "what I believe in" , since if you ask this question, that is the underlying basis of their answer.
"If fanaticism succeeds in keeping more people frum & made more frum people satisfied with yiddishkeit-than it drives away-would you be an advocate for it?"
DeleteIOW Does the means justify the ENDS? Isn't there a core hashkafa of 'Kavod Shamayim' and "Pleasantness of Derech Hatorah". Why would fanaticism ever be justified? (unless you are Pinchos Hakohen)
"If the fanaticism succeeds in keeping more people frum and made more frum people satisfied with their yiddishkeit-than it drives away - would you be an advocate for it?"
DeleteIOW the means do JUSTIFY the ENDS?
The core belief of "Kavod Shamayim & Pleasantness our the ways of Hashem" need to be implemented in all behaviors of Torah Jews. Fanaticism or Kannoous behavior are sanctified by Pinchos Hakohen only.
If the fanaticisim succeeds in keeping more people frum and made more frum people satisfied with their yiddishkeit
DeleteThat really depends on what you mean by fanaticism. When most people hear fanaticism I think they hear modesty squads that break into homes and beat up people, threaten even Rabbis, ect.
Now while the fear generated by that may keep more people acting frum, or at least trying to appear frum in the public sphere, it does not mean that they are actually frum. Rather they are frum in levush only. Is that really what we want?
As far as being more satisfied with their Yiddishekeit again that would depend on what you meant. If it means that they feel that they are superior to every other Jew in the world, and don't have to treat their fellow Jews with basic human dignity, then no that is not what we want. I once heard that we went into this last long Geula because of Sinat Chinam, and we are still stuck in it for that same reason. Chazal tell us that every generation that does not bring Geula, they are considered to have brought about the Churban... So no that is really not what we want.
Good point, R' Tzadok. Actually, I think R' Lipman is the type that could inspire people to be "really" frum, in the sense that he really believes in being a kiddush Hashem and having high ethical standards and treating everyone with kindness and respect. I read an essay of his on education and it was quite idealistic and visionary and critical.
DeletePeople have been talking about the "new charedim" for a while, and R' Lipman is a great example. The interesting thing is that he was involved in Am Shalem but then switched to Yesh Atid. He's independent -- it's a mistake to identify him too closely with Lapid.
Bennett is also basically an American -- his parents were American olim. He also has a more moderate style that most people on the Israeli right, and certainly many people in his party.
Even if Lapid wants reform and such to prosper he would be very happy if dati leumi and especially Tzohar gained prominence or took over major leadership positions in the Rabbanut. This would do great things for social cohesion and even kiruv in Israel, so I hope it happens. The charedim have enough power; they don't need to control the rabbanut too, especially if it is driving the chilonim away from religion.
Here are three typical short videos where Rabbi Dov Lipman expands on his positions within the Yesh Atid party and his views about its leader Yair Lapid, and as a new member of the Knesset and his visions and plans for the future:
ReplyDelete*Published on Feb 13, 2013. MK Rabbi Dov Lipman of the Yesh Atid party speaks to Conservative, Reform, Orthodox and Reconstructionist rabbis from North America after being sworn in to the Knesset: Dov Lipman, an Orthodox rabbi and Member of Israeli Parliament, Speaks to U.S. Rabbis (YouTube, 4.54 minutes)
*IsraelNationalTV, interview Published on Jan 23, 2013: Yesh Atid's Rabbi Dov Lipman (YouTube, 8.3 minutes), speaking about Yesh Atid's agenda of "5 major goals".
*יאיר לפיד Yesh Atid PR video, Published on Dec 9, 2012, Rabbi Dov Lipman Has com to bring change!
: Dov Lipman Has Come To Make a Change (YouTube, 1.07 minutes).
Rabbi Lipman has been working hard at his PR pitch for a while now, and there are lots of other videos many with him saying and doing wonderful things, other things he says are radical, maybe in Silver Spring they sound right, but not in Bnai Brak and Meah Shearim, so the question still remains, how does he fit, AT THIS TIME, into the bigger picture when it comes to the Charedi world in Israel? Is he trailblazer and a sign of things to come or a misguided naive trouble maker who will fade away?
He makes it sound like all people coming out of Charedi yeshivas in America are like him, when that is not true. He also makes it sound like he has the answers to all of Israel's problems, which is impossible. He was chosen by a secular politician to be in a party, he has not won his own mandate independently, so it is not clear if someone with his "progressive views plus American 'Charedi' education" has an independent constituency.
But nevertheless, he does represent a TREND and there are lots of people like him in Israel and others in America who would like to make Aliya and would face the challenges that Lipman has encountered and has now decided to tackle in his own way.
Bottom line, as long as he stays away from THEOLOGY, he is on safer ground, the minute he gets into questions about RELIGIOUS POLICIES, such Chinuch inserting secular studies into yeshivas and taking people out of Yeshivas and Kollelim, he is in over his head, and ignoring the views of major rabbis in Israel (not just as political groups) about Charedim entering the Israeli army or national service, he is is running into a brick wall that will not budge. Even General Moshe Ya'alon of the Likud opposed radical solutions stating correctly that GRADUAL change is the only way to go. Screaming from the top of the roofs that Charedim must be dragged into the army is a sure-fire recipe for a national disaster and not a salvation.
Note to Rabbi Lipman and Yair Lapid: You cannot "declare war" and on the Charedim and play a game of chicken with them and then expect them to cooperate with you! Similarly a note to the Charedim: You cannot constantly insult and literally spit on the secular when you feel like it and then turn around ask them to pay for your lifestyle with their tax money!
These secular parties (and even MO) that talk about enlisting haredim, just use it as an election tool that can get them votes. Seculars or even religious who do serve in the army just feel they want an equal burden for everyone.
DeleteIn practice, there will never be a a mass call up. A few individuals will go, and also those who are not learning.
The IDF has to invest time and money in training soldiers, and does not want to change its system to accommodate unwuilling haredim who will make too many demands.
"You cannot constantly insult and literally spit on the secular when you feel like it and then turn around ask them to pay for your lifestyle with their tax money!"
Deletethey've been doing that for decades. ever hear eichler speak? so now that the non-chareidim have said "עד כאן" no one should be surprised or upset.
"Ben Waxman said...they've been doing that for decades."
DeleteRaP: Not an excuse. It is time for Charedim to grow up. Derech Eretz Kadma LeTorah and there is no way that Charedim will won over friends and influence people by spitting at them and beating them up. This, like sexual abuse and child abuse MUST be condemned by ALL Torah leaders. There is no running away from animalistic behavior it only enrages the bulls even more.
"ever hear eichler speak?"
RaP: He shouts too much and accomplishes nothing. The Belzer Rebbe should take this guy home with him and submit someone who can do a better PR job for them, but the again this Eichler also fancies himself as some of "editor" so maybe he should be locked ina room with Lapid for a week and the two of them can insult each other to the point of exhaustion and leave everyone else alone to act more peacefully.
"so now that the non-chareidim have said "עד כאן" no one should be surprised or upset."
RaP: Non-Charedim have had it with Charedism (for lack of a better word) for a long time. The novelty in this case is that they have teamed up with an ostensibly modern Charedi from America and educated activist, Rabbi Dov Lipman who has added his "Torah voice" to theirs and that requires some deeper understanding.
The Torah Yiddishkeit of the EDAH is a brand of its own, imported from Hungry and mixed with the Yishuv Hayashon. While the Litvish Israeli worldview is European (minus Germany) in nature. The Gedolim and Chachamim of the Middle Eastern countries never accepted or adopted to either of these life style.
ReplyDeleteSO NOW,,arrives Torah hashkafa from America (not shared by all Ameican kehillas), it should be welcomed, embraced and respected. There can not be ONE DERECH for all... Perhaps small voices from BIG people will finally be heard.
First of all, campaigning and making initial speeches is a lot different than governing. As I already noted a few posts ago Tommy Lapid stormed into the Knesset with the stated intention of destroying the Chareidi community and in the end he changed nothing and disappeared in the next election.
ReplyDeleteYair Lapid may think he's in a strong position but Shas And Degel together have almost as many seats as him and can guarantee that they will again after the next election. So Bibi won't take the chance of upsetting the Chareidim too much. He might need them the next time around.
A new age is not dawning in Israel. The ground is not shifting. Hysterics don't help anything.
You asked whom Lipman represents. Perhaps he represents himself and like minded people.
ReplyDeleteThis is my problem with Dov Lipman. There has always been a disagreement in Haskafah on this issue. The Torah Im Derech Eretz psoition of Rav SR Hirsch vs the Torah only position on Rav Baruch Beer and Rav Aharon, I have always advocated that like minded Torah Im Derech ertez people leave the umbrella of the Charedim and start a new organization that binds them together, perhaps called "Yeraim". This group should have as its motto an uncompromising adherence to Halacha, a positioning of Talmud Torah as the Ikkur (not the Tafel), a realization that as a Mamleches Kohanim v'Goy Kadosh all people who commit to this ideology of equal Ovdai HaShem whether they make Toraso Umnaso or not (see Rav Hirsh). At the same time we must pay respect to all Gedolai Yisrael no matter if we agree or disagree with their Hashkafa approach but at the same time never feel inferior because we have "our" Gedolim (and I would argue Chazal) to rely upon.
ReplyDeleteMy problem with Lipman and others like him, is that while I agree with much of what he says, he has no right to impose his Hashkafa on the Charedim anymore than the Charedim have a right impose theirs on me. It works better in America because the workforce is not tied up with army or National service. Exposing our children to a non-Torah environment in their formative years is a very complex issue and I am not sure that the Chareidim are so far off base because of this.
This brings us to the "its a Mitzva to serve in the army" issue. I don't think that people of the stature of Rav Shmuel Aurbach and others need a lecture from Lipman or Bennett as to what is or is not a Mitzva. My personal perspective is that it is a Mitzva based on the Rambam regarding Milchemes Mitzva, but can I say that the other side has nothing to stand on? I personally believe that the State of Israel is a Nes Min HaShomayim and there is a Mitzva of Yishuv Haaretz and supporting the State... can I say that anyone who argues is wrong? Rav Hirsch was not a supporter of the State. When Rav Tzvi Hersh Kallisher as him to support the Chovevai Tzion, he refused and said... " that which you think is such a great Mitzva may not be such a small Aveirah" (see Shemesh Mirapeh). I would argue that this was all "before" the state was established and his position would be different today... but can I say with complete confidence that the Charedi position is wrong?
So yes, we need to form a movement under a unifying banner for like minded honest (in business and in everything), B'nai Torah who believe in Torah Im Derech Eretz, who don't "reject" the world but on the contrary accept everything the world has to offer provided it fits within the guidelines of the Torah. We should grow this movement and not be ashamed or feel inferior, because we are not. At the same time we must win adherents by showing them this path and NOT by imposing our view on them. If we do this I firmly believe we will see the coming of Moshiach in or time.
Lipman isnt imposing any hashkofos on anybody.
Deleteyou wanna talk about an imposition? if anybody is imposing anything, it is the charedi who demands subsidies from working folks so he can learn and army exemptions for ALL charedim by virtue of winning the birth lottery and being born chareidi.
Lipman is right on.
I spent a very nice shabbos at Rabbi Lipman's house in Silver Spring 14 years ago. He told me he was close with Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg z"l of Ner Yisroel Yeshiva. He has a picture with him and Rabbi Weinberg together.
ReplyDeleteMy take on Rabbi Lipman is that he is as American as apple-pie and wants Israel to be the same.
'American as apple pie' has been a wonderful flavor for many of us living in the Big APPLE.
DeleteHe sounds like a nice guy, and I like how he took on the crazies in Beit Shemesh. However, anyone who goes after Shas the way he did and particularly after Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlit"a the way he did cannot be someone I would EVER vote for.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing that the real reason why he went after Rav Ovadia Yosef is because of the statement, "There is no doubt all the judges in the secular court system are ineligible as witnesses, you can’t take them to a wedding to sign on a marriage certificate, it is forbidden…someone who does so…it is as if there is no wedding."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Lipman's father was a federal judge in America.
http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/muqata/why-is-mk-elect-dov-lipman-afraid-of-losing-his-us-citizenship/2013/01/28/
"betzalel said...I'm guessing that the real reason why he went after Rav Ovadia Yosef is because of the statement, "There is no doubt all the judges in the secular court system are ineligible as witnesses, you can’t take them to a wedding to sign on a marriage certificate, it is forbidden…someone who does so…it is as if there is no wedding." Rabbi Lipman's father was a federal judge in America. http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/muqata/why-is-mk-elect-dov-lipman-afraid-of-losing-his-us-citizenship/2013/01/28/"
DeleteThanks for that link, it's worth reading, many a truth has been spoken in jest:
Jewish Press.com:
"Why is MK-Elect Dov Lipman Afraid of Losing His US Citizenship
MK-elect Dov Lipman is reportedly not very happy about having to relinquish his US citizenship.
By: Jameel@Muqata
Published: January 28th, 2013
Latest update: January 29th, 2013
The Knesset’s basic law requires an Israeli Member of Knesset to renounce foreign (dual) citizenship before being able to enjoy the rights as a member of Knesset:
If a Knesset member holds an additional, non-Israeli citizenship, and the laws of the country whose citizenship he holds permit him to be released from such citizenship, he shall not declare allegiance until after he has done everything required on his part to be released from such citizenship, and he shall not enjoy the rights of a Knesset member until he makes his declaration.
MK-elect Dov Lipman said to Makor Rishon that he “spoke to his lawyers” about this issue, and Haaretz reported wasn’t very happy about having to relinquish his U.S. citizenship:
I am going to be relinquishing my U.S. citizenship with a very heavy heart,” he said. “One side of my family came to America to escape pogroms in Russia, and the other survived the Holocaust. America provided us with a safe haven in which to rebuild our family. My father was someone who was able to become a federal judge while being a religious Jew. It’s painful, but I’ve been told it’s the law. I do so with a heavy heart and of course, there is also the flip side – knowing I’ll be pure Israeli.
We decided to figure out if there are any other reasons that MK-elect Dov Lipman doesn’t want to give up his U.S. citizenship. In our on-line poll – which do you think is correct?
9. Is afraid he’ll be out of a job a in a year and won’t be able to get a green card to work in the U.S.
8. Doesn’t want to lose out on U.S. social security retirement benefits
7. Not willing the pay this small price for peace with the Palestinians
6. Needs a U.S. passport for refuge when his party’s peace plan explodes
5. Doesn’t want to stand on a separate line for passport control than his family when visiting the U.S.
4. Thinks the law should only be intended for Meir Kahana and not for progressive rabbis.
3. Won’t be able to be considered an “Anglo” representative anymore.
2. What will the “non-Jews” say?
1. Doesn’t want to lose out on the $1000 per child IRS tax rebate.
MK Lipman – Welcome to the big leagues — Political satire is the highest form of flattery!"
Lipman was nothing but a RBS rabble-rouser before his election. He was the Al Sharpton of Beit Shemesh whose raison d'etere was railing against those evil Chareidim.
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. He is Haredi. He lives according to halacha. But the difference between him and the rest of us is that when he sees stuff wrong with his own people (like the Yiddish speaking bums spitting on little girls in RBS), he admits that there is a problem and looks for ways to fix it rather than looking the other way or waiting for a miracle.
DeleteThere was and is a need for RBS rabble-rousers. Religious people who can not live together peacefully and with respect are EVIL to devar hashem.
DeleteRabbi Dov Lipman has his own website at www.rabbilipman.com that reveals a lot about his background:
ReplyDelete"About Rabbi Lipman:
Rabbi Dov Lipman is a political activist based in Bet Shemesh. He rose to national attention for his work in combating extremism in Bet Shemesh and speaking on behalf of moderate Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) who seek greater involvement in sharing the national responsibilities and joining the workforce....A graduate of Ner Israel Rabbinical College in Baltimore, Maryland, Rabbi Lipman has Rabbinic ordination from Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg, zt"l, and is also a graduate of Johns Hopkins University, with an M.S. in Education...
Rabbi Lipman is the author of:
DISCOVER: Answers for Teenagers (and Adults) to Questions about the Jewish Faith," (Feldheim) a book which has touched the lives of thousands of youth - and their parents - with clear answers to the questions which bother all Jewish children.
"TIMEOUT: Sports Stories as a Game Plan for Spiritual Success" (Devora) with 30 sports stories and Torah lessons we learn from those stories- a book which is inspiring youth and adults all over the world
"SEDER SAVVY: Essays for Meaningful Family Discussion" (Targum) which provides parents with a basis to transform their seder into a platform for meaningful conversations.
He has numerous projects in the publishing process including:
"THE CONVERSATION" - a dialogue during a train ride from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv between four types of Jews: Ultra-Orthodox, religious zionist, traditional Sephardic, and secular.
"TO SAVE A NATION: Combating extremism, isolationism, and indecency to restore Jewish unity"
"PARSHA POINTS TO PONDER" - a compilation of the weekly column which Rabbi Lipman has been writing for the Torah Tidbits for the past 7 years with questions to provike meaningful discussion at the Shabbos table.
NEW BEGINNINGS," which contains essays with new insights regarding the beginning of every Parsha with lessons to start "new beginnings" in various aspects of our spiritual lives.
Please contact Rabbi Lipman if you would like to partner in helping these projects come into fruition.
His popular insights on the Weekly Portion are published by the OU in Torah Tidbits as Parsha Points to Ponder and his essays often appear on aish.com.
Background
Rabbi Lipman grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland where he attended the Hebrew Academy of Greater Washington and the Yeshiva of Greater Washington. After spending two years at Yeshivas Mercaz HaTorah in Jerusalem, he spent the next few years at Ner Israel Rabbinical College and Johns Hopkins Univeristy in Baltimore, MD. In 1994, Rabbi Lipman married Dena Abramowitz from Elizabeth, NJ. The Lipmans spent 3 years as part of the founding members of the Cincinnati Community Kollel. The family then spent 6 years in Silver Spring, MD where Rabbi Lipman held various posts in the community schools. In 2004, the Lipmans and their four children made aliyah and settled in Bet Shemesh, Israel."
"Understanding Dov Lipman said...A graduate of Ner Israel Rabbinical College in Baltimore, Maryland, Rabbi Lipman has Rabbinic ordination from Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg"
ReplyDeleteThe Apple Does Not Fall Far From The Tree
The Ner Israel Yeshiva is on the extreme left-wing spectrum of the American Haredi world in America. It is the only large Lithuanian yeshiva to have an academic pact with a university, the Catholic Loyola College, to recognize each other's credits for degree purposes. No other Haredi yeshiva in America has such a deal although a few, like Yeshiva Chaim Berlin and Yeshiva Torah Voda'as do allow some students to attend classes. The large Lakewood Yeshiva, the biggest Litvish Haredi yeshiva in America is 100% against its students attending college for which they could suffer expulsion. Lakewood's policies were set in stone by its founder Rav Aron Kotler, while Ner Israel Yeshiva's founder in Baltimore Rav Yaakok Ruderman disagreed and allowed his students to attend and even "blessed" the official links with Loyola in spite of severe personal criticism from Rav Aron Kotler of Lakewood for doing so.
Rav Yaakov Weinberg was the only son in law of Rav Ruderman, but because of Rav Weinberg's radical and unusual views on almost everything (albeit the man was a Talmudic genius) he was never regarded as "mainstream yeshivish" by anyone and he was even proud of that, even at Ner Israel the rest of the faculty was challenged by his views and rejected him, he was not allowed to hold a position there until his father in law died and with the intervention of his friends Rav Aron Schechter and Rav Yaakov Perlow who forced the faculty to accept Rav Yaakov Weinberg as Rosh Yeshiva, but he died soon thereafter.
Yaakov Weinberg's sons, Simcha and Matis Weinberg are also isolated radicals in the Torah world and have held similarly controversial views that have more in common with classical Modern Orthodoxy than with the usual Haredi Yeshivish Hashkafa. Yaakov Weinberg was blocked by Rav Elya Svei, the co-head of the Philadelphia Yeshiva from joining the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudath Israel of America. Nevertheless Rav Yaakov Weinberg found a supporter in his brother Rav Noach Weinberg founder of the Aish HaTorah network and would often lecture there.
The Weinberg family has always held "unorthodox" radical views about what ails the world and what to do about repairing relations between religious and secular Jews. They pride themsleves in "thinking out of the box" and do not fear defying their Haredi counterparts. Maybe it's part of their "Slonim Hasidic heritage" (they are related) whereby "Chasidim" defy "Misnagdim" all over again? They devoted their lives to the cause of Jewish Outreach-Kiruv. It is from this rather narrow, yet relatively radical and activist, point of view, that's actually very much on the margins of Haredi Judaism in America and Israel, that the Weinbergs stood and where now Dov Lipman is coming from.
"Recipients and Publicity", you're engaging in guilt by association. I have no idea how Dov Lipman's views as part of Yesh Atid stem from his relationship with R' Weinberg when he was Rosh Yeshiva at Ner. But I don't see the answer to this in your post.
DeleteWhat does Rav Elya's blocking Rav Weinberg's joining the Moetzes have anything to do with anything here? I was at Ner at the time this happened and I fail to see the connection.
RAP, what you say is very interesting, but Rabbis Perlow and Shechter are mainstream Haredi Rabbis.
DeleteR Yaakov Weinberg was a great intellectual, something of a rarity in haredi Yeshivas. R' Ruderman himself was fully accepted as a Gadol, despite his differing views with r Kotler.
However, what you write is a very important assessment, since Haredi has a left wing of the spectrum, which may crossover with YU, and a right wing which has crossover with Neturei karta, eg Satmar, and other thoroughly extreme right groups.
The irony is that the extreme Hungarian inspired groups are very divorced from the Chasam Sofer's enlightened haredism, who at once opposed any change, be it from the right or the left. Thus, he criticized one of the Lubavitcher rebbes for outright forbidding men shaving, saying that this is not halacha but a chumra.
Similarly, he said about those who mix kabbala with halacha as being akin to those who sow kelaim - mixed seeds.
College and Charedi Yeshiva.....there are other Yeshivas in the tri-state area eg. Shaar Hatorah, Chofetz Chaim, Torah Vdath, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Far Rockaway, etc. who have talmidim who are learning and attending select college courses.
DeleteEvery Yeshiva (perhaps besides Lakewood)offer a Bachlor's degree after a specific amount of years of learning which is used to attend graduate school. The NO COLLEGE mantra of Rav Kotler does not include job training, parnassa seminars and Employment networking. There are college programs in Lakewood for accounting, speech therapy and social work for TALMIDIM (as in males).
Recipients & Publicity will probably assume that the hiring of Rav Ahron Feldman to Ner Yisroel Chief is to Charadeize the yeshiva..
Rabbi Dov Lipman's views are a product of his environment, the Baltimore/Washington area. They are quite normal in Baltimore/Washington area amongst frum Jews.
Delete"David Held said..."Recipients and Publicity", you're engaging in guilt by association. I have no idea how Dov Lipman's views as part of Yesh Atid stem from his relationship with R' Weinberg when he was Rosh Yeshiva at Ner. But I don't see the answer to this in your post. What does Rav Elya's blocking Rav Weinberg's joining the Moetzes have anything to do with anything here? I was at Ner at the time this happened and I fail to see the connection."
DeleteThe point is very simple, yet very important in the context of Lipman's views. Lipman constantly stresses that he is "Charedi" when he talks to secular audiences in Israel who have absolutely no context for what that means coming from a frum American like Lipman. He furthermore tells them things like "in America Charedim go to college and work" which is not totally factually true. First of all NO Chasidm go to college (not Satmar, nor Bobov, nor Skver, nor any of Belz, Ger, Vizhnitz in America nor does Chabad in Crown Heights let any of its people go to college) and many of them live off US government programs (yes, it's true), they don't even allow secular studies into the lower grades. The first language of Chasidim in America is Yiddish (or Yinglish) and most of them don't even speak English well until they are married when they decide to leave Kollel. Among the Litvish yeshiva world, the main trend is NOT to go to college, the biggest yeshiva is Lakewood and it forbids college while at the same time encouraging full time Kollel learning as much as in Israel. They are as Charedi as their brethren in Israel and they often make shidduchim from America to Israel and from Israel to America and they fit in with each other.
Then Lipman advertizes on his website and in a few places where he posts his rabbinic credentials that he learned in Ner Yisroel and received semicha from Rav Yaakov Weinberg. Let's take him at his word, that says what he means and means what he says when he proudly posts that Rav Yaakov Weinberg is the one who gave him semicha and would be the one who is his "Daas Torah" -- and as anyone who has known Rav Yaakov Weinberg, he did not fit any one position, to the extent that he went head to head even with the most Charedi of his own colleagues on many issues. The same pattern is true about Lipman, that although he is Charedi yet he refuses to fit into the way Charedim function, and that is to follow the Gedolim that are on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah unless they are followers of the "Weinberg way" and that is carried out in places like Aish HaTorah and by his sons Matis who is in Israel and has a following and by Simcha who has a following in America. The daughter is married to Weisbord, she is a psychologist and he is the mashgiach at Ner Yisroel
To David Held...continued:
DeleteRav Svei not only opposed Yaakov Weinberg, but he also opposed and spoke out against the way Aish and Rav Noach Weinberg "sold" Judaism. He didn't like the way they spoke explicitly about the "Jewish view on sex" or "speed dating" or the fact that Aish HaTorah coddled with secular Israeli politicians and flew the Israeli flag, not surprising, this was also the view of Rav Shach as opposed to Rav Yaakov and Rav Noach Weinberg. But they didn't care because they had the financial supporters (tens of millions coming in every year!!!) and they had mastered the pitch and had a gullible audience of secular and BT Yuppies who couldn't wait to write them big checks. No wonder Lipman is a popular writer for Aish.com and he does come across as a typical "Aish rabbi" and even speaks like one with that smiley jokey hyped up PR salesman's pitch that Aish rabbis have mastered (actually they copied it from the Chabad rabbis that Rav Noach Weinberg openly admired!) Seems Lipman has mastered that art very well, as he proves he is now a REAL POLITICIAN in the Knesset!
There is much to be said on this topic, and now that Lipman is a public figure more questions will be asked about "where he's coming from" -- but if as they say that "a man can be judged by the company he keeps" then anyone claiming to be a bona fide rabbi can and is judged by where he learned and who his rebbeim were/are and who he looks up to, and who his rabbi friends were/are, and in Lipman's case, all roads lead to Rav Yaakov Weinberg, and Ner Yisroel and prior to that the MO day schools he attended and worked for in his home town of Silver Spring, Maryland, the main Orthodox community Washington DC, which is almost totally very Modern Orthodox.
Now Lipman has succeeded in taking the Yaakov Weinberg derech he was mekabel out of the inner sanctums of Aish HaTorah, and even Ohr Someach, where the Weinbergs' influence was/is very great (Matis Weinberg still teaches groups at Aish and travels the world to meet disciples), and it's now brought into the inner sanctum of the Israeli Knesset giving Lipman an enormous bully-pulpit for an American PRAGMATIC and totally FREE-THINKING way of tackling problems and solutions by a young radical American Charedi rabbi that at this point are baffling to both secular and religious Israelis, but with time some things will become clear, for better or worse, and let's hope it will be mostly for the better!
"all roads lead to Rav Yaakov Weinberg, and Ner Yisroel and prior to that the MO day schools he attended and worked for in his home town of Silver Spring, Maryland, the main Orthodox community Washington DC, which is almost totally very Modern Orthodox."
DeleteI wouldn't describe it as very modern Orthodox. I would describe it as Haredi Orthodox Judaism with a pragmatic and optimistic attitude. The way it should be.
Most of us 'normative Yeshivish' people are looking forward to hearing MORE & More from Rav Lipman. The Lakewood boycott of secular studies for boys' yeshivos are also making up as in the past year a few new 'chasuva' yeshivos have opened with secular studies.
DeleteAlso as the new olim arrive in Lakewood with their professional degress and work ethic, friction is breeding between the Lakewood way and the other Yeshiva path.
1 of 3 to sima ir hakodesh:
Delete"sima ir hakodesh said...College and Charedi Yeshiva.....there are other Yeshivas in the tri-state area eg. Shaar Hatorah, Chofetz Chaim, Torah Vdath, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Far Rockaway, etc. who have talmidim who are learning and attending select college courses."
RaP: Agreed. But even in these, attending college is not viewed as "optimal" it is a concession, often-times coming from parental pressure, that talmidim will need a parnossa one day, so they attend college. But the over-all trend is to be more yeshivish and be in Kollel when married for as long as possible, and even in these yeshivas with guys going to college (mostly to Touro College by the way) the rosh yeshivas and rebbeim emphasize Torah learning above and beyond everything and try as hard as they can to convey that aiming for a degree is secondary, unlike Yeshiva University that has an ideological synthesis between secular and Torah and tries to mesh them into one "Torah Umada" which the Charedi yeshivas do NOT do.
"Every Yeshiva (perhaps besides Lakewood)offer a Bachlor's degree after a specific amount of years of learning which is used to attend graduate school."
RaP: True, but you miss the point entirely and purpose of why the yeshivas do this. The Charedi yeshivas have organized themselves under an "academic" umbrella organization know as AARTS (Association of Advanced Rabbinical and Talmudic Schools) that they organized in order to be recognized by the US government to receive Federal and State funding and in the process they "certify" that with at least four years of post-high school study a talmid can be awarded an officially recognized "Bachelor of Talmud" degree or a "First Talmudic Degree" that very, very rarely can get anyone into a graduate school. Perhaps there is one case in ten thousand where a student can get into a law school if they score incredibly high on an entrance exam. When talmidim leave yeshiva it helps to have it on a resume, because it's better than nothing, but having a "Bachelors in Talmud" is like having a "Bachelors in Hinduism" (lehavdil) as far as a prospective employer is concerned.
2 of 3 to sima ir hakodesh:
DeleteSo why was AARTS set up in the first place and why does every Charedi yeshiva, Litvish AND Chasidish make sure to be registered with it? Simple! It is the only way they can be eligible to receive the famous free Federal and State tuition assistance programs (hence pay their own salaries and upkeep) known as TAP (Tuition Assistance Program:..for students who are New York State residents and who are attending a post-secondary educational institution in New York.) and PELL (Pell Grant:...money the U.S. federal government provides for students who need it to pay for college. Federal Pell Grants are limited to students with financial need, who have not earned their first bachelor's degree, or who are not enrolled in certain post-baccalaureate programs, through participating institutions.)
So that for the vast majority of MALE students at American Charedi yeshivas, the fact that the yeshivas they attend grant so-called degrees, is not about "qualifying" with that degree, but rather it is to qualify to receive funding by qualifying for funding received from free government grants to pay for the YESHIVA tuitions as long as their families do not exceed the minimal income levels. While females, who do not sit in yeshivas for four years get neither so-called "Talmudic degrees" nor do they get government aid beyond maybe one year of seminary in America, but that is unusual since most Chasidish girls get married by 18-19 with no seminary after high school for them, and almost always Litvish-type girls go to seminary in Israel and for that there is no US government help. (Only "'P.H.D'.=Papa Has Doe"!)
"The NO COLLEGE mantra of Rav Kotler does not include job training, parnassa seminars and Employment networking. There are college programs in Lakewood for accounting, speech therapy and social work for TALMIDIM (as in males)."
RaP: You are correct, but the main focus of the yeshiva with its well-over 6000 students and there are many other other yeshivas and even bais yaakovs there now is to learn Torah Lishma without secular in elementary and high schools even. Newspapers, radio, TV, computers, the internet, pizza stores, etc all as "banned" for children and students as much they are in Bnai Brak.
Eventually yes, even Agudath Israel of America with which the Lakewood Yeshiva is affiliated has job-training programs it runs and promotes. BUT the big difference is that in America the question of ARMY SERVICE does NOT exists as it does in Israel, which makes the situation in Israel different. In Israel in order to get a job, the way the SECULAR Israelis have gamed the system is to make it COMPULSORY to do some form of army or national service and then "permission is granted" by the powers on high or the powers that be to "allow" or give permits and official permission to get a job or go to a technical school to learn a trade or to go to college for professional training or simply just to open a business in retail or wholesale --- there is always that particular "sword of damocles" that literally hangs over the head of every Charedi Jew in Israel (the secular want conscript males and females) that does NOT hang over the heads of Charedi Jews in America, or anywhere else.
3 of 3 to sima ir hakodesh:
DeleteJust imagine what will happen, and the day is definitely coming in a generation or two, when the Charedim do take over Israel one day and will make it COMPULSORY to for every Jew in Israel to learn Torah every day, keep Shabbat, and observe basic Mitzvot like respect for marriage between a Jewish man and a Jewish woman according to Halacha? What argument will the Chilonim have then after they have tormented and threatened Charedi Jews for so long with their own threats to throw everyone into army training camps?? Does Rabbi Lipman even get thoughts like this? Or is his vision that of an "eternal" dominance of the religious by the secular when for all of Jewish history, make that 3,300+ years, Jews have always been religious and not secular!?
The last time American Jews had to grapple with the challenge of a universal draft was during the disastrous Vietnam War, and look what happened there in the end. It taught America to switch to an all-volunteer army! Many have suggested that Israel should switch to an all-volunteer army, and give civilians some very minimal training in self-defense. It is not as far-fetched as it seems.
This picking on Charedim is coming across as discrimination and persecution, almost anti-Semitic in it tenor and pitch, while every democratic society recognizes the rights of genuine conscientious objectors. Israel has now matured to that point where it can as well.
Lapid is fighting yesterday's battles that he cannot win as with every other thing that comes out his mouth his lack of intellectual and factual depth come more into focus. He clearely knows nothing about Torah Judaism. Has he ever studied a fee blatt Gemora or spent some time learning some classical Jewish texts (not just Tanach). And Lipman is backing a losing horse and spinning his wheels to get some proverbial "ten minutes of fame" it seems, while he is learned but it all seems to come out in a topsy-turvy way as far as other Charedim can tell.
The Charedim are too plentiful and too powerful to be squeezed into the army box he wants to push them into. It is just another sign of immature rash thinking for the sake of gaining popularity and ratings in the secular media that loves him. Lipman is either extremely naive or has an agenda that is just not in sync with anything any other known Charedi Rov has ever said or says now in Israel OR America, if he has rabbinic backing he should point to who is his Torah guide as of now!!. He should not misquote what's going on in Charedi life in America when he seems to know so little about it.
"sima ir hakodesh said...Recipients & Publicity will probably assume that the hiring of Rav Ahron Feldman to Ner Yisroel Chief is to Charadeize the yeshiva."
DeleteRaP: Actually, Rav Aharon Feldman also had to be pushed into Ner Israel by the same Rav Aron Schechter and Rav Yaakov Perlow, and it's a compromise because the Neuburger family continues to run Ner (meaning they raise and spend the money).
Power at Ner Yisroel was always split between the two brothers in law (they married daughters of Rav Seftel Kramer) Rabbi Herman N. Neuberger (who had a number of sons) and Rabbi Yaakov Ruderman (who had only one daughter married to Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg).
While Rabbi Neuberger and Ruderman got along fairly well. However, there was always serious friction between the Neubergers and the Weinbergs, always competing to get the last word with Rabbi Ruderman. When Rabbi Ruderman passed away, even though Rabbi Weinberg was not wanted by Ner Israel (meaning the Neubergers), he was pushed in by his allies Rabbi Aron Schechter and Jacob Perlow who did the same thing after Rabbi Weinberg passed away, they pushed in Rabbi Aron Feldman even though he was away in Israel and it was against the wishes of the Neubergers, who do NOT even allow Rabbi Weinbergs sons to be on the Ner campus, only his daughter who is married to Rabbi Beryl Weisbord the mashgiach.
But Ner Israel accepted Rabbi Feldman because he was already a member of the Israeli Moetzes (of Degel HaTorah) so he could sit on the American Moetzes (unlike Rabbi Weinberg who never made it to the top there) and Rabbi Feldman is an extremely fine and wise and learned Talmid Chochem who does NOT hold the unusual views that Rabbi Weinberg used to espouse and fight for. Rabbi Feldman seeks consensus, he is a man of peace and harmony, and ALWAYS defers to Rabbi Aron Schechter even though he is not a "typical" example of a Ner Yisraelite and they are not really on his wavelength.
But ULTIMATELY yes, you happen to be right, Rav Aron Feldman is definitely more classically Charedi than anyone on the Ner Yisrael campus, he is more a disciple of his own Rebbe Rav Yitzchok Hutner, while at Ner they had Rav Ruderman who was an equal of Rav Hutner and not a disciple, even though Rav Yaakov Weinberg had been Rav Hutner's disciple before he became Rav Ruderman's son in law, making for a permamant combustible difference of views, yet it's doubtful if Rav Feldman was pushed in for those reasons, more likely the other roshei yeshiva don't want to see Ner to go off the deep end, since Ner (under Rav Weinberg who was loggerheads with Rav Elya Svei of the Philadelphia Yeshiva) had once threatened to leave Agudath Israel altogether.
Ner is unique because it has its students and alumni and backers coming from the American hinterland, while Lakewood is allied with the Brooklyn yeshivas and most of its big donors are connected to Brooklyn. There is a world of difference between a Ner Yeshiva person and other types of Yeshivish people, as anyone who has confronted these definite differences can attest to.
R & P
DeleteI'm not sure what your problem is with the Weinbergs, but I personally know dozens of people who returned to Yiddishkeit due to R' Noach, and there are hundreds if not thousands more who were positively influenced and now lead Torah true lives. As opposed to Lakewood, which although there is much Torah learned there, has turned into a valuable line on Shidduchim resumes for a significant minority of the students (similarly for Mir in Israel). In times like this, the 'classical' ways are often counterproductive.
I myself didn't learn in Baltimore, nor in Aish, but in what you titled 'classical Chareidi' Yeshivas.
Interestingly, because of AARTS I was able to apply Yeshiva credits towards my college degree (obtained after many years in Yeshiva), albeit only for electives.
"Kosher Kid said...I'm not sure what your problem is with the Weinbergs,"
DeleteRaP: Just like you cannot judge a book by its cover, you also cannot judge a rabbi by his "cover" pitch or story line -- meaning you must look deeper into his ideological roots to fathom how he got to be the kind of rabbi that he is, and from both his websites and some other posts, it is very clear that he had the deepest relationship with Rav Yaakov Weinberg who gave him his semichah. That is meaningful and must brought to the surface and analyzed to understand where Lipman is coming from. Otherwise Lipman makes no sense as an Orthodox rabbi, he may as well be just another activist Reform rabbi out on "civil rights" marches, and that would make Lipman no different than being a disciple of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel -- but if you know he imbibed his "Torah 'mother's milk'" and learned from Rav Yaakov Weinberg, then a lot of things start making sense, if you REALLY know the Weinbergs though, firstly they are BRILLIANT, and then you must know that they are all unconventional iconoclastic radicals to the last man.
"but I personally know dozens of people who returned to Yiddishkeit due to R' Noach, and there are hundreds if not thousands more who were positively influenced and now lead Torah true lives."
RaP: True and all very nice but you miss the point, that while they mekareved secular people (I don't know if anyone knows the true figures, I assume it's a few hundred and NOT "thousands" who became 100% Bnai Torah -- BT hype is big problem, no one really know how many have become BTs anywhere) the Weinbergs, especially Rav Yaakov Weinberg espoused a VERY UN-Yeshivish, almost anti-Yeshivish and non-Charedi-like shitta, that has taken forms in both his sons and in many of his disciples just as Rabbi Dov Lipman who is now openly espousing anti-Yeshivish and anti-Charedi view even as he calls himself "Charedi" and talks as if he knows what is going on the yeshiva world when he has a limited picture and it's thus quite a contradiction that even comes across as hypocrisy to some and is definitely not amusing to or endearing him to the established Charedi communities in Israel when he says they should all be drafted into army (men and women, that is what his boss Lapid wants).
"Kosher Kid said...As opposed to Lakewood, which although there is much Torah learned there, has turned into a valuable line on Shidduchim resumes for a significant minority of the students (similarly for Mir in Israel). In times like this, the 'classical' ways are often counterproductive."
DeleteRaP: Not sure what your point is, and the purpose is not to debate the merits or demerits of one system against the other. But the point here is to point that it is NOT like Lipman claims that "all" Charedi yeshivas in America are not like in Israel, when first of all the Chasidish Charedi yeshivas in America are EXACTLY like they are in Israel, while the Litvish yeshivas are NOW dominated by the behemoth Lakewood Yeshiva model, that is much like the Israeli model (like you mention, that other behemoth in Israel, the Mir Yeshiva) of encouraging long-term learning for bochurim and then long-term Kollel for married yungeleit. That is something that Lipman either does not know, or overlooks, or does not tell his listeners in Israel, making it seem like he is "typical" when he is "A-typical" and part of the exceptions that prove the rule.
"I myself didn't learn in Baltimore, nor in Aish, but in what you titled 'classical Chareidi' Yeshivas."
RaP: Fine, so?
"Interestingly, because of AARTS I was able to apply Yeshiva credits towards my college degree (obtained after many years in Yeshiva), albeit only for electives."
RaP: Indeed, if and when some bochurim want to attend college they can get a year's worth of credits based on AARTS, because AARTS has many uses. But the majority in Lakewood or among Chasidish yeshivas (and they are registered with AARTS, more join every year to get accredited) do not take this option, they just use being registered with AARTS to qualify for TAP and PELL grants to pay for "sechar limud" and the Yeshivas pay salaries and running expenses and make money off of that.
"just as Rabbi Dov Lipman who is now openly espousing anti-Yeshivish and anti-Charedi view even as he calls himself "Charedi" and talks as if he knows what is going on the yeshiva world . . . "
Deletelike i said, when i see mk gafni or mk litzman or kavod harav steinemann leading the movement to provide yeshiva guys with multiple masloolim, when the roshei yeshivot of mir and ponivitch make an open declaration that anyone who can't handle sitting and learning the whole day should "do something else" (and act upon said declaration to filter out anyone not learning full time in their yeshivot), than i will tell the rav lipmans "don't worry, the velt is handling things".
It is nice that you call him rabbi. the chareidi radio stations won't.
ReplyDelete"In Israel in order to get a job, the way the SECULAR Israelis have gamed the system is to make it COMPULSORY to do some form of army or national service and then "permission is granted" by the powers on high or the powers that be to "allow" or give permits "
ReplyDeleteand many roshei yeshivot want to keep it exactly this way. that way guys stay in the yeshiva or at least have great deal of difficulty leaving for anything real.
keep in mind people like the chazon ish agreed to this system. he didn't raise a storm stating that he demands that chareidim be allowed to go work instead of joining the army. when was the last time a UTJ MK made this demand?
"and many roshei yeshivot want to keep it exactly this way. that way guys stay in the yeshiva or at least have great deal of difficulty leaving for anything real."
DeleteRaP: You are being too narrow and political in your responses -- try thinking in over-all terms if you can please!!! The roshei yeshiva and Rebbes cannot supply jobs to everyone. The donations cannot keep on coming from chutz la'aretz as that sources is shrinking quickly, the Israeli government cannot feed hundreds of thousands, soon to be millions, of Charedim off the backs of other people's taxes, so they (the roshei yeshiva and Rebbes will have to adapt like everyone else, that at some point a married yungerman must go out to earn a living (not just in the black market as many do in any case) but legitimately.
In America you see Chasidim who are very learned and pious yet also standing behind store counters, stacking shelves in shops, driving trucks, working in warehouses, buying and selling anything, wholesalers and retailers, owners and managers of huge chunks of real estate ad property, look at the wealth of American Chasidim, eventually when they leave government programs they are capable of work and producing massive wealth and the same will go in Israel if they are not threatened with "army. army, army" all the time, no matter what Rebbes and roshei yeshiva say.
"keep in mind people like the chazon ish agreed to this system."
RaP: Indeed, But back then there were a couple of hundred students and a small few thousand Charedim, now there are hundreds of thousands and soon there will be millions! A new age has dawned, with or without secular education and definitely not by going to any army, the American Charedim are making tons of money and so can the ones in Israel too. They will have to, soon there will be no one but themselves to rely on. But no one needs a guy like Lipman, a rabbi yet, for all his sterling qualities, to jump in and yell "army, army, army" that will not get him or his Yesh Atid people anywhere.
"Ben Waxman said...he didn't raise a storm stating that he demands that chareidim be allowed to go work instead of joining the army.""
DeleteRaP: The Chazon Ish laid a down a principle that Torah scholars i.e. the prime of Charedim should not be conscripted into the army and shouted at and broken-in by rough sergeants into Israeli-GIs an kind of "new-Jew". He also forvbid ANY frum girls from doing even Sherut LeUmi on pains of Yehareg Ve'Al Ya'avor, a very wise move since co-ed situations lead sexual encounters especially among hormone raging 18, 19, 20, and 21 year olds, as is well known. In 1948 it was a closer call. Now Charedim have grown to a huge number and they need VAST funding that sitting in Kollel will not give them BUT they cannot move on to that if the secular Israelis shout "army, army, army" at them, that just jinxes the NATURAL movement of Charedim into technical training, jobs and yes even secular studies. It comes up, Rav Elyashiv was asked to apsken for girls if they can get degrees and he came it with a no, but that cannot hold forever either, perhaps among Chasidish girls, but not among Litvish he need jobs to support their husbands in Kollel.
More and more articles are written about how Charedim are eneteing the work force and most would if not for the threats against them to serve in the "army. army army" that is waved at them by the Chilonim who think that "army, army, army" is like "the father, the son, and the holy ghost" lehavdil.
"when was the last time a UTJ MK made this demand?"
RaP: They will get there as soon as you stop shouting "army, army, army" at them! Charedim have tons of energy, you should just see how they work in the USA and chutz la'aretz, they have become mega super wealthy! And it's gonna happen in Israel if you cut them loose instead of waving that "shmad cross" over their heads yelling "army, army, army" they're are just not Tzahal material get your head around that!
Indeed, But back then there were a couple of hundred students and a small few thousand Charedim, . . . "
DeleteYea, yea. No one needs RAV Lipman? fine. when i see the roshei yeshivot expelling all the students who work under the table, or the ones who can't handle learning all day and goof off, when i see the roshei yeshivot coming out in favor of other paths (instead of their circle the wagons attitude) then the rav lipmans will go back to beit shemesh.
"they have become mega super wealthy!"
Deleteoh please. yes i know that they work, and there may be some who do better than most. but on the average? you'll have to produce some very hard stats.
"they're are just not Tzahal material get your head around that!"
they were until 1977.
"The last time American Jews had to grapple with the challenge of a universal draft was during the disastrous Vietnam War, "
ReplyDeletethey didn't grapple with anything, they simply found ways to get out of it.
" while every democratic society recognizes the rights of genuine conscientious objectors. Israel has now matured to that point where it can as well. "
this is a new one. no one, but no one, has ever claimed that chareidim don't want to serve because they are conscientious objectors. that is simply your invention.
"Ben Waxman said...no one, but no one, has ever claimed that chareidim don't want to serve because they are conscientious objectors. that is simply your invention."
DeleteSo what do you call the refusal of the Israeli Charedim to serve in the army?
Anti-Zionism"? Give it a term, in English being a "conscientious objector" means to refuse to serve on religious grounds, see the Wikipedia article is says that that is one of the definitions. Maybe you haven't heard the term in Israel, and the Israeli Charedi politicians don't have their own "Dov Lipman" YET, maybe they should get the famous BT Uri Zohar into the Knesset, he will do a good job of making a good case and finding wording that makes you and secular Israelis happy why Charedim refuse to serve and will fight call up papers...
the wikipedia article states that the basis of the religious objection is based on the opposition to war in general, not because one thinks that he has something better to do (and certainly not because one objects to the level of frumkeit in the army).
Delete"and will make it COMPULSORY to for every Jew in Israel to learn Torah every day, keep Shabbat, and observe basic Mitzvot like respect for marriage between a Jewish man and a Jewish woman according to Halacha? What argument will the Chilonim have then after they have tormented and threatened Charedi Jews for so long"
ReplyDeleteand they wouldn't do this irregardless of any threat to draft people? the chareidi believe in separation of church and state, rights of minorities, freedom of religion?
nu bemet. last shmittah they did their best to kill the heter michirah, a relatively minor issue (maybe not even an issur d'rabbanan). they didn't do this because the mafdal tried to stuff heter michirah tomatoes down their throats, they did it because they thought that they could.
so please stop with this "justified revenge" argument.
"Ben Waxman said...and they wouldn't do this irregardless of any threat to draft people?"
DeleteRaP: Just talking statistics. It's just a matter of time because secular Israelis practice ZPG, while Charedim practice pru urevu, while chilonim can barely reproduce their own numbers, lose tens of thousands to yerida every year, they got an artificial bump from bringing in the 1 million Russians that included 300,000 who are certifiable NOT Halachic Jews (ie, goyim, but hey since they serve in the "army, army, army" they are "kosher, kosher, kosher" right?) VERSUS the ordinary population growth among charedim that's a geometric progression of growth with each new couple having about ten new kids apiece, ken yirbu, and you do not have to be an Einstein math genius to add up what's going on, see where the growth really is, and make a simple projection that within a generation or two Charedim will be in the majority in Israel. It is actually quite simple, and then at that time, they will simply go over to the levers of state power controlled by the chilonim vatikim, kick them out, and Torah law will be the law of the land. Not so bad for a persecuted minority. That's why Lapid and his ilk are so panicky and it shows, nebech
"the chareidi believe in separation of church and state, rights of minorities, freedom of religion?"
RaP: Until they take over, then they will dispose of goyisha laws. Time to get rid of archaic Turkish laws and British Common Law, and keep just what helps, for the rest, the Jews have been self-governing relying on Torah law for 2000 years in the galut and could use their own Torah in their own Torah state of Eretz Yisrael. Prior to that the Jews ruled themselves IN Eretz Yisrael based on Torah law for at least 1,300 years. So, what are you worried about? That you won't be able to drink Turkish coffee in a cafe? Don't worry, it will be kosher! Or that you won't be able to go to a concert?? Don't worry it won't be open on Shabbat but it will play! Or that you will lose the right to walk in army gear?? Don't worry it is not against Halacha. Neither is defending yourself or flying a jet, they can all be done using Torah law, and by the way Charedim love technology they make the best programmers, but you cannot force Charedim to become soldiers to keep them from "taking over" it's a feeble excuse by Lapid and company and everyone sees through this trick.
"Ben Waxman said...nu bemet. last shmittah they did their best to kill the heter michirah, a relatively minor issue (maybe not even an issur d'rabbanan). they didn't do this because the mafdal tried to stuff heter michirah tomatoes down their throats, they did it because they thought that they could."
DeleteRaP: Get used to it, people like being frum, what can you do. If you don't like it, grow your own tomatoes and fruits and no one will bother you, there is still lots of land to cultivate in Israel all over, take it away from the Bedouins in the Negev who turn into dust and use it for camel sheds. Why do the Chilonim bring in all those Filipinos, why don't they work on the lands like the old time Chalutzim? You can become a Chalutz, start a Moshav and have your own farm. Many do and are very happy. There are such enterprises that stick by Halacha and do just fine so what are you complaining about?
"so please stop with this "justified revenge" argument."
RaP: Not at all, I am not justifying anything, I am just pointed out that after so many decades of the Chilonim putting the Charedim in a kind of "civil social cherem" (making them into "outcasts" in their own land as if they are still in lousy ghettos) that limits their access to work unless they first serve in the "army. army, army" -- then what will the excuse and complaints of the Chilonim be when the shoe is on the other foot, and the Chgaredim are in the majority and they want every Jew to abide by the Halacha because they made the lives of the Charedim a living hell and degraded them, caging them in in society, instead of freeing them and empowering them to just be free to do as they wish, to go out and earn a living even for a few hours a day in between Kollel, forget about giving them your tax money, no one is obligated to give all their money away to anyone, but everyone is entitled to a piece of the action without threats held over their heads the way the Chilonim are doing to the Charedim right now. In the future things are sure to change.
"Get used to it, people like being frum, what can you do. "
Deletei don't understand what you are trying to say. who told anyone that they had to rely on the heter michirah? the srugis were perfectly alright if chareidim wanted to use yuval nochri. it was the chareidim, notably rav elyashiv, interfering with the lives of others.
i've seen too many demographic arguments which have turned out to be nothing to worry about another one.
Deleteif a draft does happen, (a real draft, not one which obligates guys to go in at 26 when they are married and get an automatic dismissal) this will be the yeshivot's "evacuation from gush qatif"; a hard slap in the face informing them that they don't have their finger on god's pulse (just like the srugi's didn't).
ReplyDeleteDov Lipman's gamble to partner with Yesh Atid pays off, now that they are in the ruling coalition, he gets a powerful post. On the one hand it is a sign, like many others, that Yesh Atid grasps the changing nature of Israeli society, with the need to give voice to English-speaking olim, likewise it's decision to allot the number two spot to gregarious Rabbi Shai Piron an open Baal Teshuva who is now the Education Minister in Israel. On the other hand, Lipman's open American-style liberalism in the guise of Orthodoxy also aligns with Yesh Atid's plans to welcome in non-Orthodox rabbis and converts from America that will inevitably result in a showdown with the Charedi establishment in Israel at some point:
ReplyDeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News:
"US Immigrant Lipman to Head Knesset Absorption Committee
The Knesset Committee for Immigration, Absorption, and Diaspora Affairs will be chaired by MK Dov Lipman, the first US immigrant to do so
By David Lev
3/17/2013
Among the Knesset committees which Yesh Atid MKs will chair is the Knesset Committee for Immigration, Absorption, and Diaspora Affairs – and on Sunday, Yesh Atid chairman Yair Lapid assigned chairmanship of that committee to MK Dov Lipman, the first American immigrant to chair that committee.
The appointment, said a Yesh Atid spokesperson, augurs significant changes for the country's English speaking population. The chairing of the committee by a recent American immigrant represents a step forward for the English speaking community in Israel and the challenges and struggles facing this community will now be among the focuses of this influential committee, the spokesperson said.
"I have spent my first month in the Knesset learning about the many challenges facing English speaking immigrants through meetings with community leaders and through my Sunday morning 'constituent hours,' Lipman said. “I have a clear understanding regarding issues which we can address through the committee including government services, educational needs, and employment challenges.
“In addition, I believe that the time has come for an increase in Zionist education in the diaspora including a refocusing on the Hebrew language and hope to use the tools within the committee to work towards these goals,” Lipman added."