Stern is unfortunately misrepresenting the halacha as well as the facts in justifying another public demonstration against Aharon Friedman. His claim that Aharon Friedman's motivation is sadism is totally disgusting and simply a lie. I received an email request from the Roll Call reporter to present the other side. But she sent the email to me after it was Shabbos in Israel and she said she had to have an answer within a few hours to meet her deadline.
Click this link [psak from dayanim of the beis din of Rav Korelitz]
A Get given because of embarrassment of ORA's demonstrations is invalid - Get Me'usa
Click this link [psak from dayanim of the beis din of Rav Korelitz]
A Get given because of embarrassment of ORA's demonstrations is invalid - Get Me'usa
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JPost “We are rallying now to continue our efforts to convince Aharon Friedman to give Tamar Epstein a get,” Rabbi Jeremy Stern, the executive director of the Organization for the Resolution of Agunot, in charge of the demonstration, told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.
“His sadistic refusal to do so is in clear violation of Jewish Law and constitutes domestic abuse. He is an embarrassment to the Jewish community, and it is therefore incumbent upon us to stand together and state clearly that we will not tolerate this abuse in our midst.”
“His sadistic refusal to do so is in clear violation of Jewish Law and constitutes domestic abuse. He is an embarrassment to the Jewish community, and it is therefore incumbent upon us to stand together and state clearly that we will not tolerate this abuse in our midst.”
“[Friedman’s] recalcitrance is a form of domestic abuse,” Stern said.
Roll Call Rabbi Jeremy Stern, executive director for the Organization for the Resolution of Agunot, the organizer of Thursday’s protest, said get refusals are a form of abuse to Jewish women by their ex-husbands, who are usually seeking to extort alimony or pressure them into giving up custody of children.
Stern added that Thursday’s protest on Capitol Hill is ORA’s fourth against Friedman — previous protests were held at Friedman’s Silver Spring apartment in December 2010 and 2011, as well as at a conference Friedman spoke at in February 2012.
“Aharon Freidman is a pariah and not welcome in any of the synagogues in the area,” Stern said. “How he can call himself a religious Jew is beyond me. He is an embarrassment, we feel, for the Jewish community.”
Numerous reports attribute the dispute to a custody battle between Friedman and Epstein. Epstein moved with the couple’s daughter to Philadelphia following their separation, and a court denied Friedman’s request to have their daughter moved back to Maryland, where the couple lived while they were married and where Friedman still resides.
Although many prominent rabbis have come out against Friedman on the issue, the rabbinical court Shar Hamishpot issued an opinion in June 2012 siding with Friedman, saying Epstein “had no right to unilaterally relocate their daughter” to Philadelphia.
Stern added that Thursday’s protest on Capitol Hill is ORA’s fourth against Friedman — previous protests were held at Friedman’s Silver Spring apartment in December 2010 and 2011, as well as at a conference Friedman spoke at in February 2012.
“Aharon Freidman is a pariah and not welcome in any of the synagogues in the area,” Stern said. “How he can call himself a religious Jew is beyond me. He is an embarrassment, we feel, for the Jewish community.”
Numerous reports attribute the dispute to a custody battle between Friedman and Epstein. Epstein moved with the couple’s daughter to Philadelphia following their separation, and a court denied Friedman’s request to have their daughter moved back to Maryland, where the couple lived while they were married and where Friedman still resides.
Although many prominent rabbis have come out against Friedman on the issue, the rabbinical court Shar Hamishpot issued an opinion in June 2012 siding with Friedman, saying Epstein “had no right to unilaterally relocate their daughter” to Philadelphia.
Aharon Friedman and Meir Weiss are true heroes being put through hell by vicious vindictive ex-wives whose only pleasure is to destroy them with the support of the most corrupt Rabbinate in the history of Judaism that if someone says " ma ahuna lei rabnonon" why is being the biggest am'amin on earth becuae these Rabbis don't represent the Torah or Yiddishkeit but their own financial and kovod interests.
ReplyDeleteWe need to support them as much as we can and make sure the eirev rav of the modern orthodox world are put in cheirem. Without a doubt what awaits this eirev rav in the next world is too horific to contemplate.
A woman who goes to arko'oys must get remarried without a get since she is kofer b'hakodh boruch hu techilah and then kofer in toras moshe according to the sifri and brought down l'halochoh by the Gro.
stan, what do u mean "must get remarried without a get since she is kofer " ?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the basis for her not needing the get to remarry? On the one hand you are alleging that these Gets are not valid, and on the other that she doesnt a require a get. Are you alleging that the Gra would allow a married woman to remarry, and produce mamzerim, without a valid get?
Please clarify your argumentation here.
Stan,
ReplyDeleteI am with you on this. A lady once came to me for help. She had put her husband in jail and he told her, "I know a few things about you." So she came to me and I fixed things. I asked her, "Do you want a GET?" She said, "No." So I asked her, "If you didn't want a GET, why did you trick your husband to violate an order of protection and put him in jail?" She said, "The choshuveh ladies told me to do it." These "Choshuveh ladies" are at war with the normative halacha rabbis. They are creating many Agunoth whose husbands are so angry that they will not give a GET. Then these ladies go to the rabbis and show the list of Agunoth and demand changes in halacha. I spoke to the head of the Agunah movement years ago and asked that we work together to help Agunoth. She replied, "I don't want to work with rabbis. I want to change the halacha." She did it, by creating a war against husbands who are treated like Aharon Friedman is treated, and then demanding a change in halacha. They will find rabbis who change the halacha, but people like me consider the GET invalid and the children born from it mamzerim. The next generation will have large numbers of mamzerim.
R' Dovid,
Deleteyou are using a single case, and then generalising from it.
how can you claim that NO women actually want gets, and are only motivated to imprison their husbands?
And since you are with Stan, could you be so kind as to explain what he means "A woman who goes to arko'oys must get remarried without a get since she is kofer"?
That is a false statement. Where does the Gra say that a woman is forced to remarry without a get? Are you trying to prevent mamzerut or promote it? Stan is promoting it by his irresponsible statement.
Eddie,
DeleteYou write, "R' Dovid,you are using a single case, and then generalising from it. how can you claim that NO women actually want gets, and are only motivated to imprison their husbands?"
Eddie,
I said a case, a single case, to bring out a point, that there is a war in America between those who want to change the laws of Gittin and those faithful to normative Judaism. Of course there is such a war. And the other side is successful in pressuring rabbis to their side. Just see what is happening in Washington DC and the treatment of Aharon Friedman. ORA is backed by the rabbis of Washington, and when I object that this is against a Rashbo, Radvaz, Beis Yosef and Chazon Ish, they ignore it. This is a new Torah and it is not an Orthodox Torah. So Orthodox Jews will look upon the children from the new Gittin as possible mamzerim.
What you quoted from Stan was not what I had in mind when I said I was with him. I think I meant that I was with him about his position on MOUS OLEI that it is not grounds for forcing a GET. I did not give him a blank check to back everything he said. But perhaps I should have been more exact.
As far as labeling people who do bad things in a divorce battle, I will say this. If cholila I ever had such pain as that in a broken marriage, I would probably understand why the finest people do the worst things. But I surely won't stretch things to say that someone in the fire of a bad marriage who does something even a clear sin is this or that, because I have to respect the pain and its abilities to do things. It is a pity that we have no system in the community to save people from broken marriages and save children from broken families. So people struggle on alone, often egged on by sympathetic relatives and friends, until there is no limit. HaShem Yerachem. But for such people in pain I have no words of condemnation, although they do bad things in their pain, I have to limit myself to expressing anguish at their incredible pain that I hope I will never understand.
I think I am mostly in agreement with R Dovid here. Of course, I consider R HS and R Kamenetsky to be Gedolei Hador.
DeleteI disapprove of the tactics of publicly protesting in Chutz L'Aretz agasint another Jew. My take on this is that it gives Jews a bad name and is a Hillul Hashem. I know America is the land of the free, but these demonstrations are not where frum Jews should be. And I do see there is a "war" in halacha, but I am not on either side.
There is another factor that I assume a competent halachist must consider. Divorce in the USA an Europe is very common, very money oriented, and the only winners are usually the lawyers. The divorce litigation culture is terrible for goyim as well, and jews are not immune to this problem. Beign caught up in this culture does not make one automatically a heretic who can throw away the Torah.
Eddie - if you are a kofer b'Hakodosh Boruch Hu techila v'achar kach botras moshe rabbeinu as brought down by the Gro from the Sifri le'halochoh by being in arko'oys shelo k'din as both dodleson and epstein havre shown by rav gestetner to be you don't require a get. just join another religion called **. you can figure out the placeholders yourself.
ReplyDeleteNo - actually a woman who refuses to litigate in bais din should never be allowed to re-marry. please see kol koreh of the last set of gedolim from europe in america who have been replaced by home born and grown rabbinic buffoons.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mishpattsedek.com/KolKoreh-70Rabbis.htm
sam and eddie you are right none of the rabbinic buffoons today would openly side with Rav Gestetner or rav Abraham. they would lose their parnossah and kovod from the feminists.
Stan, I am not interested in these pathetic websites that you and your buddies create.
DeleteYou keep changing your tune, one minute you say that such a woman is a goya, and needs no get, can marry anyone she likes, then you say she can't marry at all. If she is a goya, then a bet din cannot really legislate on her.
I think you are just making it up as you go along.
But you have this fixation that everyone you don't agree with is eirev rav. This is like Satmar, who said that all the zionists, however frum, are from Samael. This is the usual claptrap, and this is why Satmar and other Hungarian types were complicit in the mesira of their followers to the nazis.
Stan is really arguing like Shabbetai zvi. And we are somehow expected to follow Gestetner only because you do!
Stan, what is the exact Gra referring to here? Can you define in English what your term " being in arko'oys shelo k'din" means?
ReplyDeleteI have never seen anywhere that a Jews is released from his halachic obligations. Even a secular atheist, if married with a Kosher Kidushin, requires a get.
What case was the Sifri talking about?
And are you saying that the offspring of this new so-called marriage will not be mamzerim?
Here is the strangest thing of all.
ReplyDeleteRDE, who I respect, has argued that a Get Me'usa is either safek or vadai assur d'oraita. Hence, even with such a get, a remarriage would produce possible mamzerim, or vadai mamzerim, depending on the specifics.
Stan is saying that a false get alleviates teh need for a real get, and that such a woman is no longer a Jew according to "halacha", hence she is free to remarry without a get.
This sounds like reform Judaism or worse.
Eddie, the best is to ignore Stan. His comments are incoherent. His main shitta is that only one Rov in the world know the halochos and if you follow anyone else you are an apikores or kofer.
DeleteHe seems to actually enjoy when others suffer not wanting any side to compromise and he says he's involved with gitten . If you are on the opposite side of Stan,you are probably right.
No what i am saying is that these women are to be ostrasized and to be told to join another religion. Stop putting words in my mouth Eddie. They can marry goyim or whoever else wishes to marry them and let them be oyver the issur of eishes ish since they don't care about the issurim of arko'oys, gezel and mesirah anyway. They are mi'chutz le'machaneh and we need not concern ourselves with them. They are no longer our problem.
ReplyDelete"No what i am saying is that these women are to be ostrasized and to be told to join another religion. Stop putting words in my mouth Eddie."
DeleteThey are your own words stanley. You are encouraging unspecified women to intermarry and to sin. Hence, you are mechate. You are yourself Shabetai Zvi.
Are they? What about waht the Sifri says? And what about the kol koreh says they are not to remarry under any circumstances until they do teshuvah and it is ossur for a frum yid to live with them.
ReplyDeleteI am encouraging them to sin. Really Eddie. It is ORA and feminists like you who are causing them to sin. YTou are supporting them in arko'oys. I am saying expel them from yiddishkeit since by their own voluntary actions they have shown themselves to be kofrim.
I asked you to quote the sifri and the Gra, and the circumstances they describe. This you have not done.
DeleteIn today's reality, you have to take into consideration what happens if you tell someone to go to hell. They can marry another Jew, and if , as you maintain, their get is nto valid, then you are the cause of the sin. R' Dovid , who is a Rav, and apparently knows a bit more than Stanley, is trying to avoid this result.
"I am encouraging them to sin". Yes, above you told them to become a goy, and marry whomever they wish. Hence you are encouraging them to throw the entire yoke of torah away, and act sinfully, Ergo, you are encouraging them to sin.
Now, the difference between a responsible leader and an amateur such as Stanley, is that the responsible leader does not make judgements with the extreme prejudice, with lack of evidence, and with his own ideology blurring reality.
Thus, you make a number of false claims:
That Eddie is a "feminist", causing them to sin. You have no evidence for this. i have simply followed the argument that R Dovid Eidensohn is proposing, and also RDE. I accepted the possibility that the Get is not kosher. Hence, I cannot agree that they therefore must go and marry anyone, a reform Jew, or goy or whomever.
nor do I agree that they are kofrim because they dont accept stan gestetener's Bet Din. In the 13 Ikkarim, it does not say that Gestetner is the sole legitimate representative of the Jewish (or palestinian) people.
R' Dovid told a single case of a lady who was advised to get her hubby into trouble, and in this case, R Dovid states clearly that she was advised to do so by others. That does not make her a kofer, and R Dovid did not advise her to marry a goy or a reform and just ea treif.
I believe the adage is not to argue with a fool on his level.
!
To Eddie
ReplyDeleteThe message that Stan is trying to put out is that women who dont follow halacha in other matters should just not care about a GET because Judaism doesnt believe in "mitzva selection" This means an "ALL OR NONE" religion. You either fulfill all the mitzvas or your'e a non-believer in the Torah of Moses.. Apparently ORA wrongfully accuses men whose wives dont have a GET as "ABUSERS". They have never yet faulted any woman on their list for any of their actions that were done contrary to Halacha but have given them carte=blanche permission to violate alot of halochot like litigating in civil courts as afirst resort, incarcarating husbands under false pretense, kidnapping their children etc....The real extortionists in these cases are the WOMEN who force the mans hand first in the civil courts, and then by using ORA to publicly humiliate them if they dont give in to their demands of a "swift GET" at their choice of Bais DIN!!!! What a travesty in Halocho and twisting of facts. I have recommended to men to start dating converts who have no halachic questions of GET and many of them can be taught how to be a respectful and loving Jewish wife the way the Torah wants a wife to behave. it is time to "reinvent the wheel" i.e find good wife material that doesnt follow the garbage that the feminist movement has shoved down their throat.
Shmulik @ The message that Stan is trying to put out is that women who dont follow halacha in other matters should just not care about a GET because Judaism doesnt believe in "mitzva selection"
Delete~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Firstly Judaism isn't a person who believes in something or not.
However, you are completely misreading what Stanley said.
he says that women who go for a pressurized get, or even thos who are not accepting gestenter, are converted to goyim, becasue of the Gra, and that they can marry whomever they want, and dont need a get.
What stan said is rubbish, as I have already proven.
But what you are saying is also rubbish.
let's say i went to r eidensohn, and told him i dont wear a kippa in public. Do you think he woudl agree that I am therefore allowed to eat treif, to be gay or marry a horse, or a buddhist, etc?
If i went to R Kanievsky and told him I have a TV or don't keep the rabbinical fasts, do u think he would permit me to eat on yom kippur as well?
Eddie , you make a good point however I can read into what Stan is saying. Look take for an example Susie Hacohen
Deletehttp://mamzeralert.blogspot.com/2011/01/susan-rosenfeld-hacohen.html. She has gotten remarried without a GET but with a bogus annullment from some orthodox rabbi. She was married to a cohen, had a miscarriage and then remarried to another cohen WITHOUT A GET. So Stans point is... that a woman like this should not preach about certain chumras in Halocho when she violates some of the worst sins known to man.When a woman like Tamar is trying to extort a GET on civil and halachic levels , who is trying to fool when she wears a shaitel or other outwardly expressiond of religiosity!! its all a facade anyways. If she were to remarry with an extorted GET it is no different than marrying with NO GET. That is Stanleys point precisely. You could ramble all day and call stan crazy but thats the point hes hitting home. Wake up and smell the coffee. Alot of men are fed up with the corrupted rabbis and their twisted halacha and will stand and fight for their halachic rights and will not allow a woman to emasculate him
DT please elaborate who are these rabbis who signed that proclamation that a forced GET is possul? are they from Israel? never heard of them? Are they Badatz? rabbanut? etc...
DeleteMy brother wrote in first comment
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/get-given-because-of-embarrassment-is.html
"I received this letter from someone who works with the Beth Din in Bnei Braq of Reb Nosson Karelitz, and their Dayamim signed this paper that humiliating husbands invalidates the GET."
Once again Eddie has put words in my mpouth. I said that the community must wash its hands off these women because of their wickedness and that it is ossur for any frum yid to marry them because of their wickedness. For that i was called an amateur. Well i guess al the gedolim who signed the kol koreh and i was quoting them are also all amateurs. Eddie has shot the messanger because he doesn't like the message. No one said that they don't need a get but a get won't help them because they are women whom the previous gedolim assared us to marry because they are wicked. If they wish to have relationships with goyim or anyone else for that matter it is not our problem, it is not lifnei iver - they are wicked and they must be ostrasized. Someone who is as wixcked as these women is michutz le'machane as are their supporters. Now if you don't like the Torah Eddie, tough you can also join another religion.
ReplyDeleteBy the Way Eddie since you don't approve of Rav Gestetner, mind telling us which botei Din you approve of?
Stan you pick and choose, like pick n mix candy, what halacha you accept. You gave a list of some partial gedolim, but you would not accept Gedolim such as R Kotler, R Shach, who supported the heter meah rabbanim in the Brisk feud.
DeleteYou said they must marry without a get. Now you are denying it.
You also implied by this that it doesnt matter if they sin or have mamzerim. This is the opposite of what the opponents of ORA are saying. they are saying that need a get, to avodi mamzerim.
"This is the opposite of what the opponents of ORA are
Deletesaying. they are saying that need a get, to avodi mamzerim".
that's the point you are missundestanding, a get given by the tactiks from ORA is invalid and thus not avoid mamzerim
Eddie look up the nosei keilim on choshen mishpot 26. I am not your secretary. the fact that you don't even know where to look shows how ignorant you are of halochoh and should not be commenting at all on matters which you know nothing about.
ReplyDeletePlease Eddie you don't have a clue what you are talking about. It's these women who are in arko'oys shelo k'din who are preventing kibud av and almost inevitably oyver mesirah and genaivoh who all of a sudden who want a get who are picking and choosing. And you support them. 70 gedolim in America said these women are not to re-marry so again you are shooting the messanger because you hate the message.
ReplyDeleteWho said I don't accept Rav Shach? Inventions! I can tell you that that case is very complex and I don't have the full details. What I can tell you is that Malkiel left her an "agunah" since Briskers don't do Gittin. And Lakewood could have gone on perfectly without him. So please think again before you open your mouth and put your foot in.
Lastly I am happy to communicate with you but will refrain from doing so until you answer which Botei Din you accept.