Monday, August 17, 2009

EJF - universally accepted conversions?

Anonymous comment on your post "EJF's Enhanced Web site":

I am converting through EFJ (monsey, NY) and I would like to know whether those beit dins are kosher and my conversion will be kosher. Thanks


  1. Accept from the fact that if you convert with them, you will have Tropper or the chavrutha they assigned to you control your movements for the rest of your life, they will have to approve your dates, your place of work, your choice of friends, your rabbi your community etc. They actually will eliminate the role of the local rabbi from your life.

    Currently the EJF conversions are accepted by case by case basis and even r' Eisenstein who is on their board said he will accept them only case by case basis. There are many rabbis and communities that do not accept the EJF conversion. Tropper made many enemies in his life and his converts will suffer his transgressions

    In addition, the EJF is one man show (Tropper) and while currently he is in good standing with rabbis (thanks to his access to Tom Kaplan) there is not guarantee that he will stay in good terms.

    A case in point, the grandson of previous godol fell out of grace and all his psaks especially his gittin / divorce decrees are now questionable. Do not let it happen to you!

    Your best chance is to go with the RCA, their conversions are accepted by the Israeli Rabbinate, (EJF conversions are not directly accepted). the RCA is not a one person show it is organization of 1000+ rabbis and conversion by them carries more weight than conversion by one person (regardless of how much money he has).

  2. Ditto everything LL Cool Jew posted.

    There is no question that the RCA is your best chance for acceptance right now.

    Unfortunately, there is no guarantee, even if you convert with the Israeli Rabbinute that your conversion will be accepted, even in Israel.

    I know of a young lady who converted with the Rabbinute in Israel only to go to get married and find that only the Chief Rabbi in Rosh Ha-ayin would marry her. In Israel, usually one of the couple must reside in the town where the marriage is to be performed.

    There are also 27,000 people who converted under Rabbi Druckman's Conversion Institute in Israel whose conversions were nullified and are now being reviewed individually.

    All the best of luck to you no matter what you decide to do. Personally, it is very difficult for me to understand why anyone in their right mind would choose to be Jewish.

    My sister and I researched our mother's maternal line back to the 1550s hoping to discover that we really were not Jewish.

  3. While I can't comment of the ETJ
    itself, I do know someone who
    converted through one of the bet
    dins they list on their website.

    The person studied with a local
    rabbi but converted through
    that bet din because there was not
    one in the state they lived in.

    That conversion has been accepted
    in Israel.

    However, I should
    probably seek a RCA conversion.
    Less controversy, if nothing else.

  4. But of course you forgot to mention that the sefardi chief rabbi in Israel wants to impose new conditions on RCA, and that it is not sure that RCA conversions will be recognised in Israel.

    But don't worry, once you had your first conversion, you kind of get used to it, and the second and third will be easier and easier...

  5. "...the EJF is one man show (Tropper) and while currently he is in good standing with rabbis ...",

    Thank you for showing your elephant bias against them! what you and other critics on this blog (with all sheva shemot shenikreu loy) ommit and don't want to recognize is that : Rav Reuven Feinstein and many of the leading Rabbis in the Usa and abroad support and are part of this organization. They have different batey dinim in the Us that have yireh shamayim and will not convert without kabbalat hamitzvot.

    It is great that recently the Rca (thanks to Rabbi Amar and also to the councioussness raise by Rabbi Tropper) did some changes in it's organization some of which they will tighten the standards so as not have gerut without kabballat hamitzvot which renders the conversion null and void.

    There are many fake dayanim who make frauduent conversions (like the flatbush rabbi and many many others) who have converted numerous people for money and without kabbalat hamitzvot. Many rabbonim invalidate any gerut performed by such Rabbis, like HaRav Sternbuch rules so in his responsa.

    EJF's Batey dinim though will NOT convert someone if they know that the fellow will not keep shabbat kashrut and basic taharat hamishpcha!

  6. "that the sefardi chief rabbi in Israel wants to impose new conditions on RCA,",

    It is not "impose" from outside; it is rather accepting the fat that they had to enhance something that was lacking in the past in their conversions! But thank G-d now, they have enhanced it, with the acknoledgmenet that change was needed they are a good venue.

  7. "that the sefardi chief rabbi in Israel wants to impose new conditions on RCA,",

    It is not "impose" from outside; it is rather accepting the fat that they had to enhance something that was lacking in the past in their conversions! But thank G-d now, they have enhanced it, with the acknoledgmenet that change was needed they are a good venue.

  8. But don't worry, once you had your first conversion, you kind of get used to it, and the second and third will be easier and easier...
    Easy for you to say it because you are a woman, but for a man....

  9. It was sarcastic:
    Giurim are a big mess, and you will always find someone who will not recognise any Giur.

  10. To the original poster,

    I think you are in bad situation because if you started working with Tropper / Roni /Jacob and you decide to work with the RCA Tropper who os so vindictive will harass you and will try to ruin your conversion like he did here:

    Where the couple decided (after Tropper was trying to control her with his frumkeit chumras) to go with the RCA, Tropper was making lies (which he had to semi-apologize) that the girl still beleive in Christ just because she visited her parents.

    It is not first time Tropper did something like this. He did it to at least one Kol Yaakov student who decided to attend YU. Tropper was telling people in the students's new community that the student great-grandmother or something like that is not Jewish.

    Is is not sure thing that the RCA under the leadership of the fearless warrior rabbi Basil Herring will agree to work with you, they are just too fearful of Tropper. But you would not know unless you contact them.

    If you read this blog long enough you know what was Roni (Tropper) reaction where the wife of one his backers went to Rav Bomzer.

    Be Afraid, Very Afraid

  11. In my experience of the Batei Din that I know on that list they are Kosher Batei Din. That do Kosher conversions.

    I am not sure how much a role EJF plays into that or not.

    What you do need to realize is that the "Universally Accepted" conversion is a myth. It does not exist, there will always be someone that does not accept the conversion for some reason.

    Your best option is, like a potential B"T, to find a community that you really do want to spend the rest of your life in. That you want your children to grow up and be a part of. Then convert within that community, or by its Rabbinic oversight. Ultmitately I would try to find one with as few "political issues" with other movements within Orthodoxy as possible. That will help to ensure that you don't have problems based on other peoples differences and squabbles.

    If you do an Orthodox geirut through any Orthodox B"D, that has reliable Dayyanim, and you are comitted to living a Torah lifestyle, the worst you can expect is to need a giur l'humra at a later date. Which, male or female, essentially consists of just a little dip in the mikvah before a different B"D.

    An absolute necessity to understand is that the mobility and interchange between Jewish communities that we have today is a very recent development. In fact it essentially only came about post WWII. So many of these issues of acceptability of conversions is very new. It is a series of issues the the Orthodox world is still wrestling with and trying to struggle through. B'ezrat HaShem it will be resolved speedily and in our days, in the meantime try to be patient and make informed and well thought decisions.

  12. mt (rb),

    After attacking viciously Rabbi Tropper you disparage Rav Basil Herring! You don't give him and other ehrliche rabbis at rca thae benefit of the doubt that they acknoledged that in the past RCA was very lax in it's nopn standards to have some rabbanim like the rabb of flatbush who makes fake gerut as he did to uncle tom's relative's wife!

    In any evetn ehrliche rabbanim in the RCa like R Basil Herring and Rav shecheter know that there were problem,atuic dayanim in it's misdst and problemtic standards. That is why they try to correct their problems.

  13. Mekubal,


    The situation where today many people make aliyah makes it a necessity for propsective converts to make a conversion that is acceptable by the Rabbanut for those who come from abroad!

    Not every ORthodox Rabbi is ipso facto accepted. There are many who were and are problematic. These are people who did covnersions withoout requesting and demanding basic commtiment to keep shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamishpcha. These rabbis are ipso facto disqualified as kosher dayanim. Their geut will not be accepted athte RAbbanut and at other rabbis of other towns.

  14. So you see, mekubal: at least one point where we agree...

  15. You all talk like the rabanut is Moshe Rabenu.... it is nothing more than another mess up of the corrupted state of Israel. we have a code of jewish law to live by! there it clearly says that three orthodox Rabbis are kosher to make conversions. it even says that three simple orthodox jews are enough to make a new jew.

    All this nonsence about accepting or not accepting geirus is a result of political and envious rivalry between rabbis and the money involved. it is a shame and a Chilul Hashem that at the end only the well intended converts suffer in the process. I Dont care about what Israel accepts since a "convert" converted by a reform Rabbi is also "a jew" they are busy bringing goyim from russia and thailand. I have a long list of converts done by the rabanut that only bring shame to their "rabbinical authority". WE are messing things up, and is not the converts that are doing it!

  16. Thank you Monsey Yid. You spoke out of my heart.

  17. to monsey yid,

    The "Nonsese" you refer to about people not accepting certain Rabbis, can be referred to HaRav MOshe FEinstein Igrot MOshe YD 160 where questions Rabbis in the USA who would make gerut without real kabbalat hamtizvot that they be "grii mehedyotot" that they be WORSE THAN HEDYOT (in which case the conversion would not be kasehr bediavad).

  18. The Poor Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ZL is miss used as the chazon Ish. When this Tsadik Hador was living there was no questioning of this magnitude. some semi conservadox rabbis were questioned for obvious reasons and even then the always compassionate Tsadik use his wisdom and yirah shomayim to give a wise desision.
    Is very convenient to use his psak by assuming that anyone other than you is doing this irresposable geirus. Any Rabbi that has half an yirah Shomayim will question all prospective converts!

  19. This appeared recently on R Tropper's Blog


    Rabbi Tropper, I heard that the Eternal Jewish Family conversion standards are very respected. Are they accepted universaly?

    Sol G.Lawrence, NY

    Rabbi Tropper Responds:

    Eternal Jewish Family does not perform conversions.

    The Batei din that are affiliated with Eternal Jewish Family are not only accepted and respected by the Rabbinate in Israel but by every Halachic authority in Israel and chutz laretz.

    Hence a conversion performed by an affiliate Bais Din of the Eternal Jewish Family is a Universally Accepted Conversion.

  20. One Of the Rabbis in assosation with Rabbi Tropper is Rabbi Rabinowitz, he is a member of the machon horuah rabbinical court of monsey,a respected Talmid Chacham in bet din that preform also gitin. I have no knwoleage of the details of rabbi troppers conversions but I do know that he is a G-d fearing Jew.I preffer that most rabbis refrain from converting people NOT because they would not be kosher but because they are in it for the money, gerus is not a buisness. I also despise those Rabbis invalidating Geirus since it is a bullet to shoot at any one you don`t like ...since the only one affected by this evil behavior is the ger himself, who cares for him? He is someone that ignoranlty went to convert not knowing about the inmaturity of the rabinical world. NEBECH!!!!
    Is amazing,the rabbi is attacked but it is the gerim that recieve the punches. So, it is an excellent topic to destroy the world with machlokes with little harm to yourself. HASHEM YIRACHEM!!!!!


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