I am making this a post for two reason 1) I am really impressed with Recipients and Publicity's combination of solid knowledge with his leaps of fantasy which sometimes are on target but of late are really off. 2) It is an interesting fantasy which shows an outsiders' view - you just don't realize how inefficient and confused Chareidi Jewish organizations are.
To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.
Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.
I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
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Recipients and Publicity responds:
Rabbi Eidensohn says: "Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney."
Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)
Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?
So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.
And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:
a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.
b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.
c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.
d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.
e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.
f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.
g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.
h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.
i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)
j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."
So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.
As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."
Dear Rabbi Eidensohn:
You state: "I am merely responding to your accusation that for a community to ban conversion and converts because of the widespread failure to be able to discern sincere candidates is anti-halacha and against the hashkofa that we were sent into exile to gather gerim."
Indeed I stand by my assertions and I still cannot fathom how you cite these mekoros that you do as being potentially applicable "bechol asar ve'asar" meaning in any place anywhere which is just NOT something you can derive from the sources you cite. Do you reallly think that what the Syrian rabbis did in the 20th century has any real connection to the lomdus, hashkofa and halacha in the sources you cite? Not at all. They took a look at was happening around them and screamed bloody murder at the mutiny of their flock who were "voting out of the faith" by marrying non-Jewish women and they decided to take a radical step. Did they go around and ask every last Godol on Earth at the time, including all the Sefardishe poskim, if what they proposed to do was in keeping with millenia old Yiddishkeit? And I tender to you that they did not, they panicked, put up this notorious Takana, and then found a few opinions here and there that sort of back them up. Did Rav Kook or Frank institute any such similar things for the Kehillas and Talmidim they led in Europe or in Eretz Yisroel in spite of what they wrote and allegedly "meant" to the far-away Syrians in Argentina? Decidedly no! Why, because they understood and knew full well that it is unheard of to institute such measures.
By all means pasul the geirus of others, like Satmar that does not accept the rulings of most other Batei Din, not in geirus not in gittin and not in kashrus, that is within Halachah, that one tzad is not mechuyav to be mekabel yenem's piskei di as long as they have what to be somech on, but to stand up and say you are issuing a blanket Takana "AS IF" you were now Rabbeinu Gershom, is utterly preposterous, and that is why you will not find either Rav Frank or Rav Kook or any gadol doing such things for their own people. And that is why I say what the Syrians did is anti-Halachik because it goes against the norm.
In fact none of the Syrian rabbis who signed the Takana can be deemed to be what we would today call a "gadol" in the fullest sense of the word so why do we have to accept or be machshiv what they said when it goes keneged hasechel and keneged Torah peshutah?
Then you say: "I don't understand how you would extrapolate from these sources that I am advocating a universal ban. I am just defending the right of the rabbonim of a particular community to institute such a ban."
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.
It is all fine and good that you hold by Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ, terrific, it's a huge madreigah, but you cannot expect every last Charedi and Orthodox Jew to accept such a supremely high and almost impossible madreigah too. And you seem to be using this whole Syrian Takana ma'aseh, that no-one in the Torah world is even goires, because very few people have respect for what the Syrian Jewish community has achieved in terms of Torah true Judaism, they are more famous in Brooklyn for their "heterim" to ride bicycles on Shabbos down Ocean Parkway, skinny ladies wearing pants jogginbg down Ocean Parkway, building huge mansions, vacationing in Deal and on the Jersey coast as if they were on the French Riviera, and spending tons of money on lavish luxuries and outlandish Bar and Bat mitzvas and playing wink-and-look-away games with their rabbis than taking grandiose Takanas not to marry shiksa seriously.
Other groups also have corruption, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Among other groups, like Chasidim and Yeshiva-leit there are also problems but of a different nature and scale. The takanos so far in recent times are pretty lame, the rabbonim made some takanos about not going to concerts but that does not come to not accepting geirim.
No doubt there are kanoim lurking everywhere waiting to strike and in good time we will hear about attempts to disallow ALL genuine geirei tzedek from becoming geirim, but this is a big jump, and there is a wide chasm between modern Syrians in their personal SUVs and sportscars for everyone in the family with Haredim packed one family into two rooms in Meah Shearim, for now...
There are better ways to fight assimilation than Takanos and gezeiros. Think Ahavas Yisroel, Chinuch, Kiruv, Yeshivas, Bais Yaakovs, day schools, shulls, youth movements.
But the Syrians are really still not ready to hear this.
Do you known that in the Sefardic bikkur cholim in Brooklyn dominated by the SYs that they know that they need social workers but they have set up a cocamamy system that a social worker must be tagged by a communuty worker so that no community secrets leak out. Have you ever heard of such things? You are a psychologist, would you accept that every patient you see MUST be co-handled by a member of the Kehila they come from and that you would have to share all session notes, consultations with colleagues, everything, with some community appointed watchdog less-than-a-rebbetzin? Well that is the way the Syrians function, they want "Orthodoxy" but on their own terms, and what they get is just hypocrisy and a huge mess that they then try to stop with silly "takanos" that only makes them into the laughingstock of the Torah world, like little Mike needs a monitor to keep him in check, and it gets them absolutely nowhere and it is surprisng that you are willing to defend such shtus and to even go digging up mekoros for them and shtel them tzu like arbes tzum vant.
Maybe that is why Jersey Girl has a chip on her shoulder against Aish HaTorah, Chabad, and other Kiruv operations and why you harp on and on about the "Lakewood Ger fiasco" (and it was a fiasco, I agree with you) because it's just a way of laying the groundwork for a total ban against all converts which Rav Shternbuch or the BADATZ may have in the offing but which will only isolate them further and thrust them into looking no better than the Neturei Karta anti-Zionists who have turned logic and Yidishkeit upside down in order to "save it from itself."
If you want to see where opposing something to the extreme can lead, just take a look at the nut jobs who travelled to Tehran and were even willing to deny the Holocaust just to make the point that they are against Zionism. Not that I am comaparing Zionism to geirus, but one needs to watch out for the danger of falling down a slippery slope of being "protesteth too much" when just a little moderation, even for those proposing extreme views, is in order, both humanly and Halachically.
Recipients and Publicity said...
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.
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Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney.
As I have stated a number of time I have no problem with changes and varying standards which reflect the needs of the times. I do demand that the halachic rulings be presented in a cogent manner with the sources clearly explained as well as proof of who is poskening.
Thus I have no problem with a community such as the Syrian banning gerim they deem as insincere. I have no problem with Rabbi Tropper accepting intermarried couples - if he can show a written letter from Rav Eliashiv or some other gadol that clearly supports such action and why. I also would like some clear evidence that what ever rulings are followed actually improve the situation.
Your own creative interpretations and story telling about what happened and why - simply doesn't qualify as serious halachic discourse. Your conjecture about a wide variety of topics doesn't constitute objective facts
Why don't you come back down to earth. Your intelligence can be put to better use in helping clarifying the issues rather than villifying others.