Igros Moshe (YD IV #36.11) Question: Doesn’t the Talmud and Rishonim indicate that working at a job is required? Answer I don’t understand why you cite the gemora in Kiddushin (29a) that a father is obligated to teach his son a trade and if not it is consider the son was taught to steal. Or the statement at the end of Kiddushin that a father most teach his son a trade which seems to be the view of the Rashba. This seems to indicate that this is the halacha. In fact all it shows is an obligation to teach a trade . It simply means he should ensure the son gets a good Torah education so that he can teach others or be a rabbi of a community and thus have parnossa.
So what does teaching him to swim mean?
ReplyDeleteWell if it's what I think, that Rav Moshe is going to rewrite the gemara to avoid a conflict with his understandings, then it's to teach him to swim in the "waters of Torah" and become a great scholar.
DeleteI think this is a very flawed argument.
ReplyDeleteIf he is saying that the talmud doesn't permit or in fact encourage Jews to work in a secular job, how is a rabbi going to make a parnassah? Because all the congregants are also rabbis, so do they all pay each other? In which case nobody earns anything.
I'm missing something.
ReplyDeleteThe gemara very clearly says that a father has to teach his son a trade so he won't become a thief. It doesn't specify the trade or make any mention of Torah.
Rav Moshe, zt"l, says it means that he has to learn Torah so that his trade will be a Torah teacher.
It seems to me that Rav Moshe is simply rewriting the gemara to fit with his preferred "Learn don't earn" philosophy. What am I missing?
When he gave really lenient heterim, eg on mechitza or sperm donor for married women, he was brutally criticised by hareidi leaders.
DeleteIn this case, he's being more hareidi than everyone else, since normally they'd say "well trade yes, but not nowadays".
So it was harder to criticise him on this.
And the modern orthodox would never dare to say anything..
Okay, but still the idea that he's reading a gemara the way he wishes it would've been written instead of the way it actually is written is a concern. What's the line? How easy is it for someone to now pasken that when the gemara says something is permitted, it's really saying it's forbidden?
DeleteThere's a few ways to answer that.
Delete1) he was a teleological halachist. That term was used by ultra modern orthodox Rabbi Emanuel Rackman, meaning of you have a worthy goal, that kind of determines the halacha.
2) as per teshuva 11 of the rema, sometimes it is eis le'asot ... Hence violate the law.
Alternatively Gedolah aveira lishma than mitzvah shelo lishma. Since majority of doctors do it for prestige and money, then learning Torah lishma is a worthy aveira even if it involves theft. The Gemara is calling hareidim thieves so he has rewrite it.
3) one posek wrote an antithesis to Rav Moshe igrot.
He was not very respectful though, and Rav ovadiah Yosef said it's very good scholarship but should not be disrespectful to a major Gadol.
1) Kind of like teleological climatologists who have decided that the Earty will burn up in 2035 if we don't ban cars and have cherry picked the data to support that? I'd like to think Rav Moshe, zt"l was more intellectually honest than that.
Delete2) No, the majority of doctors do it because helping people with illness and improving their lives is very fulfilling and we love making the world a better place.
I think there was a teshuva where he was arguing that majority of doctors are in it for the material benefits, thus it doesn't fall into the category of ibn Pakuda of choosing a career that suits your personal nature.
DeleteMaybe in this he's implying that only Torah study (talmud study) is covered by that theory..
Intellectual honesty? 😂🤣🤣
DeleteThat's a goyisher concept 🤣
Seriously though, how comfortable should we be with a legal system where the decisors choose an answer and then revise scared texts to fit that answer?
DeleteAnd yes, our illustrious blogmaster posted that teshuva accusing doctors of self-aggrandisement a few weeks ago. Frankly, it's offensive. If I suggested that most roshei yeshiva do their jobs for the opportunity to fondle little boys, there would be strong blowback from Ironhead but smearing all doctors? I understand the justification. The yeshiva boy wants to be a doctor? Tell him doctors are not nice people so he'll stay in yeshiva.
Who says we are meant to feel comfortable?
DeleteAnd remember, if they say left is right and right is left, we must listen to them.
So now is one of many examples of the left -right fallacy, and if you disagree, Ironhead will comment.
However, Ironhead is chassidic and possibly Gur. Chassidim didn't feel obliged to accept Rav Moshe as their posek.
If you want obedience, you either achieve it through fear or respect for your followers. A legal system in which the decisors act as infallible oracles above petty things such as being questioned or expectations of having to explain their reasoning is not Torah, it's a cult. If they say left is right, they have to explain why and "Daas Torah!" will just drive people away.
DeleteThat's why I gave the example of the Hungarian phrase book.
DeleteIf the Hungarian phrase book was 100% misleading, it would only get limited following , until it's rejected as a joke.
So here, it's maybe 50% accurate.(It could be 30% or 70%) People get hooked on the 50%, and the rest is Hungarian... But they accept it because of the left _right fallacy.
Also, the left=right fallacy is called a fallacy by the Yerushalmi. It is in the Sifri which is a halachic midrash, but the Yerushalmi has much greater authority.
Delete