Igros Moshe (OC I #23) I was asked if in an emergency whether those who profane Shabbos can be counted to make a minyan. I answered that according to our accepted halacha views they can be counted. Just as the law of Kiddush HaShem requires giving up one’s life in the presence of ten Jews nd likewise one can not say a davar bekedusha with less than ten. So since one can be obligated to die in the presence of ten Jews even if they are not religiously observant but are Jews as we learn from the spies (Sanhedrin 74) who were openly deniers which is worse than violating Shabbos it is obvious that those who violate Shabbos can be part of a minyan to say Devarim shebekedusha
That is probably one of the biggest mistakes Orthodox jewry made in the 20th century. Chasing mechallelei Shabbat out of shul.
ReplyDeleteIf we would have kept them, befriendrd them, etc., they would not have gone to the C or R temple, or even worse, the biggest denomination of Jews then and today -- unaffiliated or none of the above (which is more than the other three combined.
Kiruv might actually have worked, unlike today when 5% is a great result.
Wow! great idea except it would have destroyed the observance of others
DeleteThat's not what Hizkiyahu hamelech thought when he rededicated the Beit hamikdash. He called on all tribes of Israel to come and do the Pesach offering, even those who hadn't purified property
DeleteKa your comment is irrelevant!
DeleteNope.
DeleteRav Moshe is in agreement with it, as is the Torah. Medinat hayam is arguing against the straw man , not the actual conclusion of the psak.
And you are supporting the straw man he has posed.
KA YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG!
DeleteRav Moshe does not say that C and Shabbos transgressors should not be removed!
If i am wrong, why have you written " it is obvious that those who violate Shabbos can be part of a minyan to say Devarim shebekedusha" ?
DeleteIs it a typo?
Saying that a Shabbos transgressor can be counted as part of a minyan if it s is an emergency does not mean there is a policy to be accepting them on a regular basis as Shul members.
Deleteso if there is already a minyan, you kick the C/ transgressors out?
DeleteYes!
DeleteI see.
DeleteChazon ish regarding lo moridin?
Wow please explain why you think that is relevant?!
DeleteBTW Rav Moshe is not sure there is a tinoik shenishbah today
The CI says to bring them back with chains of love. That's a different perspective. Of course I'm not saying what should be the halacha, just that the ci is addressing the bigger picture.
DeleteThere was a previous discussion about the concept of a minyan. Was it Karaite or conservative that were excluded?