"A relative of mine committed suicide three months ago in the same situation," said Glick. "Three children, a year after his divorce. Last week a young man in Haifa committed suicide and many, many more have done the same. It seems to me that the time has come to be more aware of the appalling situation of men who are involved in a divorce process."
"Hundreds of people are killed, month after month," lamented Glick. "Divorced men commit suicide seven times more than their married counterparts."
Glick read out parts of a Yediot Aharonot article by Yifat Glick, including the suicide note written by Hanan Dadon, who was the MDA's Southern Region spokesman and a member if the 669 rescue unit. "Today I understood that there is no value to my life. My divorce will leave me destitute. How can I stay debt-ridden and still pay 14,000 NIS a month in child support? How can I work two jobs yet not be able to look my children in the eyes?
"I am supposed to start a new phase in life, to begin a training course on the fifteenth of the month," wrote Dadon. "Yet what's the point if in the end there won't even be bread and margarine and I will have to live with my father?"
The mere raising of the subject by Glick aroused the ire of MK Rachel Azaria (Kulanu) who interrupted Glick's words with a series of taunts. "What is this? It's not appropriate for you to speak like this," she declared. "Express yourself in a way that fits reality."
"It's not appropriate for me to talk about people in distress?," retorted Glick. "I'm talking about a group of people who according to official statistics of the state of Israel suffer from more that 100 suicides a year." [...]
On Wednesday the initial vote on a proposal by MK Betzalel Smotrich (Jewish Home) and Yoav Kish (Likud) to cancel the early childhood custody which automatically leaves young children with their mother. The law is not the controversial "Parents and Children" proposal which confers prerogative rights on social workers over parents. The present proposal is intended to cancel the present situation whereby mothers are automatically preferred to fathers with regard to custody of children under the age of six.
Have any divorced women/mothers committed suicide after losing custody?
ReplyDeleteLet's not get facts get in the way of your agenda.
So the 150 suicide figure is pretty much confirmed.
ReplyDeleteAdd to that the lower quality of life leading to early life expectancy.
I don't think that is the point. I think his point is that the divorce process in Israel is horrible. I have not heard of many cases of women having to pay child support in Israel to their ex husbands. Instead at this point fathers are made to pay completely for their children, while the mother is required to add very little financially. I myself have gone through it and after child support and taxes being taken from my salary i am left with perhaps 1500 shekel a month. I think if the courts would push for more equality in the system stressing that both the mother and father are very important to the development and men are not just ATM it would go along way to both sides coming to a fair resolution as opposed what happens now that depending on if you end up in court of the beis din will make a huge impact. Another thing that should be stressed is fathers paying child support should get heavy tax deductions, so they dont have to pay high taxes based on their salary rather based on what in the end they will take home after giving away much of their salary in support. Just because someone works and earns money does not mean the courts have not set them up to be poor. So why can't they get tax breaks like the poor non working people. It takes two people to bring a child into the world. Why not hold both of them to equal responsibilities. Men would love to care for their children and women can certainly go out and get a job to supplement a reasonable child support payment from their ex. If you strip a man or woman of their role as a father or mother and make them feel like all they are are a wallet and then make it impossible to move on in life since they are forever in debt, what do they really have to live for, we have taken away all their self-worth and hope.
ReplyDeleteThe point should be that divorce is horrible for both parents. Either parent can make the other's a living hell. But interest groups don't see that bigger picture. They only see their group as the 100% victim and the other as 100% aggressor.
ReplyDeleteyes divorce is horrible. But one can not nor should one lose sight of biases in particular systems against one party or the other. For example it wasn't too long ago that the beis din was biased against women.
ReplyDeleteAnother case is that of Beth Alexander where the court system was apparently biased against her because she was a foreigner and took custody away from her and gave it to her husband without any meaningful justification
It shouldn't be too hard of observing bias in a particular legal system while at the same time acknowledging that it can change and go against the other gender.
I agree with you, but any complaints of bias, like this MK has made, should also add a footnote to this effect. That ALL bias should be removed and not be replaced with the opposite bias. Courts should ignore any influence from lobby groups such as fathers for justice and feminist organisations. I fear the MK doesn't believe this, and his solution is likely to be to introduce the opposite gender bias which is just as bad as what he is complaining about.
ReplyDeleteyou are reading things into his statement which he didn't say and I don't think wants
ReplyDelete"Why not hold both of them to equal responsibilities."
ReplyDeleteBecause any custody decision should be in the best interests of the children not the parents.
Has a similar study been done on the numbers of women who have lost custody?
ReplyDeleteYou only seem to paint half a picture.
So write a guest post
ReplyDeleteWhen was the beis din ever biased against women, in what way were they biased, and when did this change?
ReplyDeleteThe parents interest in their children directly affects and is tied to the children's best interests.
ReplyDeleteWomen losing custody of far far less then half the picture/instances.
ReplyDeleteHow is a death sentence for the Father in the best interest of their children? Live and let live. Lo yumsu ovos al bonim. How about shalach teshalach es hoEm, v'Es habonim tikach lach for a change. When chas veshalom a Mother passes away, are the children taken from the father in the so called best interest of the children. You must consider case by case what's in the best interest for all parties concerned, not to disenfranchise either party from Simchat haChayim joy and happiness of their life and offspring. Tilting the scale all the way to the left is leftist. Give some bones and crumbs to the father of the child just as well, and while at it you might leave a little leket, shikcha, vepea with some meat on it kindly for the poor father. Do it the old Boaz way as in Vayhi bimei shfot hashoftim how he instructed to his youngsters, for Ruth and the poor, close an eye and make believe you accidentally dropped some crumbs to make it bederech kavod. When Esther's parents passed away, Mordechai adopting and parenting her was good enough, wasn't he. Yes, charity begins at home. There are enough stories around where the Judges have been bought out and did away with the best interest for their pockets, without questions asked.
ReplyDeleteDraft up a general outline that can later be trimmed and outfitted to custom fit to case by case so that at the end of the day looking at the scale, they should pretty much balance out. When we see that the Husbands don't opt out for suicides, we will understand they got a fair shake. For all these lives nebach that had been wronged, let's no have them died in vain, there is a message to learned for the future generations.
Those Fathers that weren't strong enough to handle it were the weak ones, there are many others that pain their life away struggling along day by day and wish c'v' tov hamesim min hachayim asher odeno bein hachayim, veim ken lama ze anochi.
Have you read the recently distraught Mother Esty z'l how she has been railroaded to her death? The whole of Israel was up in arms, and there was not one eye left dry and they did mends on the Tkooness.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.com/search?q=Esty+Weinstein&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS708US708&oq=Esty+Weinstein&aqs=chrome..69i57.15600j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Child/spouse support is expensive and it leads to despair. I don't think this horrific suicide numbers would be so high if money wasn't an issue.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, the law is the law and it won't change.
What a situation.
I would take it with a grain of salt and count much more. When it comes to Shiduchim time, people don't want to have that on their resume. They massage and launder the numbers.
ReplyDeleteYou fail to acknowledge a possible death sentence for the mother.
ReplyDeleteTo reiterate my point, this is not a gender issue. Corruption for either parent is equally unacceptable. I. Not doubting that there are fathers who have been let down by the justice system, as have mothers. So please ensure you refer to these injustices with gender neutrality.
@Monty...
ReplyDelete& all et al
*You fail to acknowledge a possible death sentence for the mother.*
You missed out the most important parts! =====>
"You must consider case by case what's in the best interest for *all* parties concerned, not to disenfranchise *either party* from Simchat haChayim joy and happiness of their life and offspring. Tilting the scale *all the way to the left is leftist*. Give some bones and crumbs to the father of the child just as well,".....
..........Draft up a general outline that can later be trimmed and outfitted to custom fit to case by case, so that at the end of the day looking at the scale, they should pretty much *balance out.*
I have also mentioned the plight of Esty W. z"l on numerous occasions what a tremendous blow for Yiddenthum and each & every one of us it was, so much for equal time. The causes are equally unfair and devastating, be it of 1) feminist authorities 2) or bought out with $hochad by either side. It is Bad for Yidden.
Since these Exit & Poll numbers R'L' overwhelm mostly the Fathers, now that talks volumes loud n clear. There are many runner uppers as well that did not go to such extreme, but their life is still full of tsaar, agmat nefesh with shivrei lev nevertheless, every minute of their lives of whatever is yet left. i.e. 9 or so on the Richter Scale, vegam chayehem einom kruyim chayim.
I therefore suggest that there should be drafted up two column Headers of all the assets, liabilities, custody, support, visitation rights, and all other things you can imagine, how to distribute the goods and the bad's for each parent fairly and squarely as close as possible, having the best interests and welfare of the children at all times. Since you cannot split up everything right down the middle, parties can barter each other out and the BD/court should also consider the burden of the one who is the failure and cause for this split up if any. Having all things considered, it will eliminate close to all if not all of these suicides and the bitterness for either party.
Splitting up is not pretty, I therefore would also suggest to present this snapshot for both parties concerned, the picture of *The Day After* how it will look and what they are in for, so that divorce should not be a lucrative enterprise for either party. *That*, should save lives of many children at stake, and make the parents blink before splitting the Yam Suf all over again. A marriage is only as perfect as you want to Make it be, and a divorce is only as bad as you Break it to be. Ask the yodei dovor, it is not as good with her as bad as it is without her, therefore, before you break the plate all over again, *think* and *blink*, v'Shalom al Yisrael.
Hey, if you think you have a better idea, add/subtract/divide, all are welcome and so help us all. Happy Turkey
Money is not everything, but it helps. Bitterness is all across the board, v'Esty tochiach, see what happened to Esty W. zichrono livracha, she nebach died over her children, v'Rachel mevako al shiva bnoseha umeano lehinachem! She nebach went Chana veshiva boneho's way R'L'.
ReplyDeleteWas she any less equal under the law? Everything is at the discretion and as good as the fairness of the authorities. One mold does not fit all. BTW, she was not peniless and even with her date harel, life wasn't worth a fig without her children. You don't seem to fathom a Yiddishe Mamme and a Yiddishe Kishke.
Esty W. didn't do that to herself only because of her children, depression and perhaps even a certain level of mental disorder added to her sad end.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you say. The emphasis should be on fairness, transparency and the best interests of the children. The discussion needs to move away from gender specifics as you correctly pointed out as either gender can easily become a victim of an unjust divorce outcome.
ReplyDeleteThe next stage of discussion would be around how to ensure such fairness and what happens to those who try manipulate the system with corruption. Should they be treated as heroes like Schlesinger is in Vienna?
Can we attribute the suicides of the men mentioned in the article to a certain amount of mental disorder too?
ReplyDeleteIf monty criticizes trump, you'll post it.
ReplyDeleteYet you come with no facts.
ReplyDeleteJust put the heat on them relentlessly. See the RSK'S, the Ivus hadin, umegaleh ponim baTorah will NEVER die, till they repent in public, ask mechila gmura from all parties concerned, tell them to depart, and give Aaron N'Y' back his dignity and have him see his daughter beli shum kchal ushrak, thusly so! rak kach
ReplyDeleteactually even if he doesn't criticize trump but sticks the issue he is complaining about - if it is a cogent article I will post it.
ReplyDeleteguessing doesn't make it true.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it only the women who are being accused with mental conditions? It is equally conceivable that some of the men mentioned who committed suicide might have a similar issue. Why are we making accusations against one gender and not the other?
ReplyDeleteA balance type of scale doesn't lie. If in those 150 suicides of Fathers, the scale was tipping to the left. Read the last paragraph where they voted all about the children. They put all the financial burden on the Father, where are the feministas harping for equal rights, what about equal responsibilities?
ReplyDeleteIf the Father sees his monthly income garnished away and left with no self support to put bread in his own mouth, how will he survive, veim kach - lomo li chayim? Hear the song of the Heilger kaliver Rebi, *im koi yiten letsonehu, leshono habo bal yachlivehu. The cow will not give milk lest you feed it, and you can't milk the ca$h cow on credit.
Veoni choshuv keMes. Let him try to skim off the top something to chew on, there goes his visitation rights. No money, no a see a Da children, no tiki, no laundry. Why not first let him take off HIS needs first, and contribute equally as her counterpart, then we see the mentality of how the fittest survive. What's good for the Goose is equally good for the gander.
Besides, why don't you ask the children if they are interested to see their Father? Aren't you preaching, *everything is in The best interest of the Children?* Huh? Don't we all know what's good for Yidden and their children. As R' Chaim Meir'l used to say, *A yeder einer meint zech, a chitz ech, ich mayn mech*. Yodati bni Yodati, don't let lawyerism legalese linguitis disenfranchise to disprove how the OTHER parent is unfit and undeserved. Most cases the father was quite stable while he put bread and butter on the table, beyamim ketikunam. Let it be known bitfutsot Yisrael that either parent has a G-d given inalienable right to enjoy his children and see nachas uninterrupted, *Chelek keChelek yochelu hayoshvim al hakelim* ad bli day vead sof kol hadoros. Then there will be Sholom veShalva ad bias Goel, Amen.
Truth is, you'll post a reasonably cogent article either way. No disrespect intended.
ReplyDeleteI think we could.
ReplyDeleteThe law can change.
ReplyDeleteBeing realistic, I don't think it will... it would be necessary a "mass revolution" in the court system. Don't think that will happen...
ReplyDeleteA great article about women who falsely obtain an Order of Protection against her husband in divorce proceedings as a tactic. Written by a bona fide feminist, no less. (RDE, you may wish to post this as a separate post/article.):
ReplyDeletehttp://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/837636
thanks! Just posted it
ReplyDelete