Tuesday, June 23, 2020

Tamar Epstein's Heter: Protest of the Eidah Charedis against her remarriage without a Get


  1. So there you have it Mr. WrApPer and Mr Going on and on and on. The whole Eidah haChreidis is moiche along with Botei Dinim bechol kitsvos tevel. He duped a R' Note for the Alye shmeinah of korban, only to have to bring a chatos shmeino kesheyibone B.H. bimheroh beyameinu. Nebach the bochrim thought they are Niglo to a Yeshiva of mekom Toiro, only to find out it is Megaleh ponim baToiro. If they will be called to leave, they will have to close shop. Al asher ozvu es toirosi velo holchu bidrochov. Gevald!

    Nossen deGazosi, is this the END?

  2. Until such time as the American Aguda's Moetzes Gedolei haTorah remains silnet, then the Kaminestky, and Rabbi Nota Greenblat, are safe. So far, as we has been noted, out of eleven signatories of the American Aguda's Moetzes who signed a Kol Koreh against the "Open Orthodox" and of those ONLY one signatory, Rav Aron Feldman, Rosh Yeshiva of the the college-going Ner Israel Yeshiva in Baltimore (something Rav Aron Kotler ZT"L long ago condemned) it is only Rav Feldman who has written a letter asking some questions and pointing out problems with the Heter, but also not condemning the Kaminestkys.

    So you see, the BADATZ of Eidah HaChareidis and the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah have different battles to fight: While the BADATZ in ISRAEL now carries on the banner of the age-old Satmar rejection of the Heter that started with attacking Rav Moshe Feinstein, on the other hand, the American Moetzes, that was once headed by none other than Rav Moshe Feinstein (appointed by none other than Rav Aron Kotler) have other worries in AMERICA like fighting the what they perceive as a greater enemy, the Open Orthodox that they must contend with whose alumni are taking over the out of town world that the American Aguda needs for its Yeshivas' alumni Shtellas and for its over-all donation base, something that is no concern to the Meah Shearim-based BADATZ of the Eidah HaChareidis that is funded by Satmar and takes not money from the sources that the Aguda people do.

    Stay tuned!

  3. Why arent we hearing anything from the moetzes

  4. Obviously 10 out of 11 of the Moetzes do not agree with Kamenetzky otherwise you would have seen a letter of support by now. They are scared to be Moche shalom k is a very scary individual.

  5. You always very erudite and poetic, but heck man it would help if you would write in clear English and not as you were reciting "Gramen" at a Chusun's Tisch! Try to love the English language, it is the the language we use to communicate on this and not some unintelligible to most Yeshivisha Gibberish. Thanks for your consideration!

    Anyhow, don't hold your breath! During the height of the original Kolko scandal, that was the Avi Avos of original Internet activism, there were calls and thoughts that Torah Temimah would close down and be sold off as a building for condos on Ocean Parkway, when all that happened was that a few Gedolim got involved, Rav Pinchos Scheinberg famously said it was "not penetration" to rape little boys, and Kolko was let go with a slap on the wrist relative to what he actually did, and hey, guess what Torah Temimah continued as a Yeshiva, and while its enrollment went down in Brooklyn, mostly due to increased competition and people moving away, Torah Temimah found a way to recreate itself and establish a new flourishing branch in Lakewood Ir HaKodesh.

    Same goes for Tropper, they may have shut down his little Kol Yaakov Yeshiva which was never anything in any case, in fact even the rival Ohr Someach Yeshiva in Monsey sits mostly empty because the flow of BTs to such places is over, but still and all Tropper never fulfilled his written promise to leave Monsey and he is still going around giving Shiurim and much beloved by his fellow Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who never stopped backing him. And Tropper was condemned and attacked by the same Rav Shternbuch and the full BADATZ.

    Look also at Berland from Shuvu Bonim, he actually raped women and has gotten away with it even though he has been hounded from country to country, he has now left Holland and is back in South Africa with hundreds of followers who are running after him because he is their Rebbe and they are his Chasidim and believe in him.

    It is therefore a bid mistake to expect the Kaminetsky to fold easily and just melt away and for their famous Philly Yeshiva to close down just because the BADATZ is screaming in Meah Shearim, that is a very far, far way from the world both the Frei and Frum live in in the USA's out of town world. The Kaminetskys could never get away with doing what they did in Brooklyn that is the center of Yiddishkeit in America, but out of town, where they are the Kings, they can and still are not down and out, far from it, they are being lauded by the Yated and the Aguda world and so far the American Moetzes is saying nothing and notice, how even the Israeli Agusdists and Degel HaTorahniks are saying nothing.

    There was a pic in last week's USA Yated of "Rav WEiss of the BADATS visiting rav Chaim Kanievsky in Bnei Brak" and I would bet a lot that they rav Weiss was trying to get Rav Chaim Kanievsky who is the Posek Ha'achraon for the Agudists and Yeshiva world in Israel to sign onto the this new Kol Koreh from the BADATZ, but as we can see he has not.

    So if Rav Chaim Kanievsky is silent and so is Rav Shteinman, and they are the type of Daas Torah that the American Aguda would listen to, so that if nothing has been said from Bnei Brak, and of course as Rav Dovid Feinstein who is on the American Moetzes says nothing, then nothing will happen to the Kaminetskys, Rabbi Greenblatt or the Heter for that matter, because no one wants to tear down something that can really be traced back to the Posek HaDor Rav Moshe Feinstein himself.

    Yes, it's complicated, and it is far from over!

  6. Finally.. but where is BMG. This is a sort of thing that you you lead Klal Yisroel you CANNOT ignore!

  7. Veal yevakshu torah mipihu ma tehe oleho? Forgive for expressing dvorim kiksovom, since I have learnt Talmud in it's original Aramaic language and text, and daven in lashon hakodesh, it is my mamme loshon. As far as gramen, please forgive, I just write it as comes to thought and bli kevana to it's rhymes. As far as your beef is concerned, you systematically approach in the method of boiling the frog. You started out that no one serious is against this heter, and before you know it the Botei Dinim haomdin al haModin came pouring and flooding in crying foul, you then raised the BAR. Ahhh... yes R' Shternbuch, but that's yet not the whole Eida, although the RA'Avad had the Eida title on his kol kore. Now that the whole BD signed on it and in much harsher terms for a mechoe " nevolo" etc. , yeah, but that is not yet the Moetset, uvo kmihalech umechAsser reishech. My goodness, the rosh haMoetset left town and jumped ship leaving the ship to it's own fate in a stormy ocean "vehoniyo chosheves lehishover", because of lo motso yodov veraglov beBeis haMIdrash so they came up nebach with this Orve Porach non issue for the OO asher ein lonu chelek venachlo imohem anyway. While our own house is on FIRE with matir eishes ish lealma with heterim shel shkorim and composing letters shel doifi vedivrei bela vohevel comparing apples to oranges and to bitter herbs shoresh poreh rosh vela'ano hashem yerachem, the WHOLE WORLD is up in arms, veato omer shiro, as if you are still holding on your own? The Titanic is already at the bottom of the sea, but you are still screaming Chai veKayam, vehi yimshal bach! NO, it's absolutely not complicated, it is chad vecholok neveilo utreifo vesaruach meikroi. My dear friend, this is all written up in the mishna long time back, beikvosei demeshichei ... chochmas chachomim tisrach amongst many others, phew' the stench is exactly and even worse than predicted. The Titanic already hit bottom bemayim amukim, umi yidlenah? Raising the Titanic is tfilas shav. over n out no need to reply

  8. Some background on this מחאה, from the אוצר החכמה thread (where many commentators are themselves רבנים הבקיאים בטוב גיטין וקידושין). This was posted yesterday and hopefully will make it easier for the Ameriacn Gedolim to also do the right thing:

    מחולת המחנים כתב:
    אב בבינה כתב:שמעתי
    כעת עדות נאמנה שהבד"צ עה"ח חתמו נגד ההיתר לפני כמה שבועות, והיה עומד
    לפירסום עד שהג"ר שמואל קמנצקי בכבודו ובעצמו [למרות שכתב שהוא לא היה
    המתיר] דיבר עם הגאב"ד, והחליטו שלא לפרסמו עד שיבררו את העובדא יותר.
    העובדות ביתר דיוק:
    הבד"ץ שליט"א של העדה החרדית חתמו מיד על המכתב נגד ההיתר, אך כשהגיע
    המכתב אל הגאב"ד שליט"א הוא החליט שברצונו לשמוע חוות דעת מרבנים שונים,
    ולאחר פניית הגר"ש קמנצקי הוא החליט להורות על עיכוב המכתב.

    התכנסו כל חברי בד"ץ העדה החרדית לדיון על הפרצה, ולבסוף הגאב"ד חתם ג"כ על
    המכתב, וזה לאחר שבתי הדין בא"י ובעולם כבר פרסמו את מכתביהם נגד ההיתר.

  9. Not sure what you're addressing this comment to me...
    I of course agree that the heter is a joke and based on lies. My point to you is that your trying to rope RHS into this heter is also a lie, more appropriate for the imagination of an infant. So you use the same tactics as the matirim who used lies to get what they wanted.

  10. RAP has some very valid points.
    I want to do a comparison of this case to that which inflamed orthodoxy 40 years ago, the famous Langer case.
    Rav Shternbuch , in his first letter, compared the 2 cases, as did RDE on here. So far the comparison, in terms of response , has failed. R' Shternbuch admitted this when he complained that there has not been enough protest against it. And he is quite correct, there hasn't. Not the case with Rav Goren. There was massive protest. Hareidi thugs would attack Goren's car and protest around him. the gedolei hador of the Hareidi world at the time, including Rav Shach, Rav Feinstein, RAv Auerbach made massive protests, with Rav Auerbach performing kriah. Where are their sons / in laws today? They are quiet. Bnei Brak is quiet. New York is quiet. Lubavitch is quiet, even though they have a bone to pick with Philly.
    The Shteipler Gaon ztl waa also a big name in the opposition to R Goren, but Rav Kanievsky shlita is silent.

    That is the political side of it. How about the halachic?
    I would argue that this case is much more serious than the Langer case. In this case, the criticism is that eishes ish is being permitted, and that is the most serious aveira. In the langer case, Rav goren did not permit eishes ish l'chatchila. He claimed to have annulled a false conversion, and hence free people from the category of mamzerus. The detractors argued that you cannot reverse a conversion. So if the case of the detractors is made, it is permitting mamzerim to marry into Israel. That is a lav, and not one of the 3 cardinal sins.
    So why is the protest so muted in this case, and so exaggerated in the langer case?

    We have seen that annulment of giur has become a big industry in the hareidi world. Dayan Sherman did this on an industrial scale, but nobody blinked an eye. Why is that the case, considering it was assur for Rav Goren to do it in an isolated case?
    when there are competing batei din, whether for kashrus, or any other area of law, then the competition is a financial and political threat. To put it another way, in halacha , everyone is equal, but in hareidi halacha, some are more equal than others.
    Since RSK is still considered big int he Hareidi world, you will not get the big protests in Philly or anywhere else.
    As for the Eda protestors, they are not really part of humanity. Their lunatics even attack Gedolei hador of the Hareidi world.

    So a Kol Koreh from the Eda is preaching to the choir.

  11. Rabbi eidensohn why don't you put back up the letter from rabbi greenblatt. It's hard to read but it's his haskama to the kedushei taus from 2 years ago, not a retraction.

  12. Another big Chiluk is that then the responses were not only against the Psak but also against Rabbi Goren himself, with the Gedolim declaring him unfit to be a Rav and all his rulings null and void. This has not happened in this case - it is the Psak that is being argued with, not the Posek.

  13. dov if you cant see there was never a letter from r' nota just a direct letter from shalom to him it seems whoever gave over the letters was not suposed to give over that one

  14. Dov - the letter I temporarily posted was not the one that I was expecting which was a retraction. On top of that the person who sent it to me with permission to post it changed his mind shortly after and and asked me to take it down.

  15. Are you claiming that as of now rabbi greenblatt has retracted his psak just you do not have his written retraction yet?

  16. Oh, all this palace intrigue is so vexing!

  17. Thanks for the reply.

    As for your critique, it is not valid, because we can only go "as fast" as Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn the blog owner.

    While you may be zoche like the Eibishter to be a "yodei'ah es ha'itim" and like HaShem you function based on "sof ma'aseh be'machsvah techila" the rest of the human race can only digest one meal at a time and likewise only one blog post at a time.

    So yes, as the blog owner has posted a post, then I respond to that post "ba'asher hu sham" one step at a time. You have to run the race and go the 15 rounds when there is no knockout blow, and so far, we are not at the 15th round of this Machlokes, yet!

    It may be the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end, but it ain't over til it's over. And for now it's definitely not over until such time as either the main actors throw their hats into the ring and give up, and/or there is consensus from the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, yes, both the one in American and from the two in Israel that the Heter that the Kaminetskys procured, and that Rabbi Greenblatt provded, and that Tamar got is Batul Umevutal Legamri.

    The Kaminetsky Titanic has far from sunk, in fact it is not even the Titanic, it is some other luxury liner cruising the oceans and attracting large crowds who are on board and paying high fees to the captains to keep on sailing.

    So hang in there, we have a way to go yet!

  18. Unless he revokes the carte blanche license he gave him, mamesh shchina medaberes mitoch groinoi, people might think it is still in effect venimtso machshil b'eishes ish lashuk. ma sheker, mi sheker? Switch to infant formula, will open up your eyes.

  19. Chalomot beAspamya

    I'll give it to you peace meal, some tseido ladorech shemo yakdim kone
    leveshet. Putting all davening, mishnayos, gramen and megale asidos aside, let's
    try some simple chumash. Harav Shternbuch already said that any yeshiva bochur
    knows that this is not a mekach taus, even you admit that this was a

    You are down to ulay yimotsun sham assoro, veulay yimotsin poi vesham
    shloisho. Do not hold your breath, you don't have a prayer. Im habachurim omru
    kach, ma yoimru hoarozim. The Moetset will never matir a sherets bemataamim or
    benezid adashim. Lo suguru mipnei ish even the K's are bichlall. This now became
    a three ring circus each one trying to outlie the other. All these letters
    flying around chadoshim labkorim is the knockout punch.

  20. If you were honest, you would realize that there was no "carte blanche license", because the letter specified unless "yisbarer lehedya shetaa." To the extent that Rav Shmuel was involved in this heter, it has been nisbarer lehedya shetaa.
    You constantly and conveniently ignore the line of unless "yisbarer lehedya shetaa", apparently because it doesn't fit into your negios and dishonest agenda.

  21. it has been nisbarer lehedya shetaa.

    How has it become clarified? RSK still stands with it. When we consider that "Sod Hashem lireiov" means that despite the fact that it it seams wrong to us, we know that this great person had Hashem's secret revealed to him that it is correct.

    If RHS thinks that his "Sod Hashem lireiov" ruling does not apply to this "heter," then it is incumbent upon him to clarify it as publicly as he bestowed that title and ruling in the first place.

    Otherwise, his "ruling" must stand, for those that want to follow him blindly.

  22. It seems RaP is right about your "Dishonesty"...

    "How has it become clarified?"
    Are you saying that it's not clear that this heter was wrong and based on lies? You're an idiot.

    "RSK still stands with it."
    Really? RSK claims he had nothing to do with it! So you think RHS supports a heter that RSK himself denies that he was involved in?! Sheer idiocy.

    Again, RaP is right about you - you guys are just a bunch of dishonest fools blinded by your negios.

  23. Ask
    Honesty whether I am honest. Much rather, had RHS been honest, he would have
    declared, " Kivan shenisbarrer lehedye sheto'o, nispardo hachavilo", so that
    from now on no one should be nichsal through a T'aus Sofer be'eishes ish, asher
    pitam veyeinan veshamnan is *'something else '* beloshon sagei nahor. I gave
    you several examples of chasan denan. If a Shochet looses his chazaka, you let
    it be known, lechol man deboie lemeida and not stand idly by. If YOU give a
    hechsher for a BUTCHER on his meat, he than is ma'achil neveilos utreifos
    leyisroel, do you say that if he now produces salami
    and pastrami and it
    is all fine and dandy you just let him go on business as usual? Baloney. You go
    to ORA and declare Lechol man deboie lemeida that mehayom veholoh the Hechsher
    is removed due to ma'achil dovor achar, how else would the peopple know? He
    apparently is NOT baki betiv gitin vekidushin. All these are bibchinat Linei
    Iver lo siten michshol. If a caterer is not makpid on sanitization in his
    kitchen e-coli-ing people, poof goes his food vendor license and it's all over
    the Net till he makes a recall. How else would people know? And had YIU also
    been honest, you would have not written what you wrote. This sounds very
    infantile and beating a dead red Herring if it was already swimming on it's back
    even before it was caught like dogim hanichrosin. Furthermore, at the way things
    stand by now, it is not likely of To'o, it is more likely this was done beZadon
    ubeshe'at nefesh, by hook or by crook, since he still doesn't admit that he -
    behedye to'o. If it's for you still beyond Fathom, why don't you go drink a cup
    of infantile milk and see the light. If you care to ask the Grammer RapPer, he
    will give it to you peace meal being more palatable. no need to

  24. It seems RaP is right about your "Dishonesty"


    You must feel very confident in your "argument" that you need to resort to an ad honieim as an opener. lol

    RSK claims he had nothing to do with it!

    Really? lol He clearly says that the "psak" is reliable. The documentation shows his involvement as well.

    So you think RHS supports a heter that RSK himself denies that he was involved in?! Sheer idiocy.

    Again an ad honimeim to somehow contradict the facts. Kindly call RSK and he will admit that he supports the "heter" which was issued by a "bar samcha."

    Again, RaP is right about you - you guys are just a bunch of dishonest fools blinded by your negios.

    A little passionate projection of your behavior upon others does not fact make; nor does it in any way clear RHS until he makes a clear public statement. By public: as public as his first "ruling."

  25. No, that's not what he is saying! RHS is not clear about his stand. It is RHS's obligation to cut the umbilical cord bifnei kahal veEido declaring that he is in agreement sheTO'O, and revoking his license. Shoite shebeoilom, who then else did it. The BUTLER did it??? You have all his letters, lies upon lies and still did not ask the couple to depart. There is enough Rap rope for all. Enough of this ...rap.


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