Friday, January 22, 2010

Tefillin stopped a flight:


NYTIMES

he plane, a 50-seat regional aircraft that was less than a third full when it took off from La Guardia Airport, had been climbing through the early-morning sky for about 25 minutes. A 17-year-old passenger in a whitish sweater took out something he had carried onboard, and strapped it onto his wrist and his head.

To some people in New York, that is a relatively common sight: an observant Jew beginning the ritual of morning prayer. But to at least one person on US Airways Express Flight 3079 on Thursday — the flight attendant — it looked ominous, as if the young man were wrapping himself in cables or wires. [...]

40 comments :

  1. Fortunately, all turned out well.

    That said, this kid isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Putting on tefillin in front of an audioence @ 30,000 feet does not bring one closer to heaven. He should have davened before he got on the flight or waited till afterwards.

    Mommy and daddy may applaud his erlichkeit, but the rest of us are not impressed. Few will say it but his stupidity caused a great chilul hashem. Passengers were delayed and some were uneccesarilty frightened.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Putting on tefillin in front of an audioence @ 30,000 feet does not bring one closer to heaven. He should have davened before he got on the flight or waited till afterwards.

    Mommy and daddy may applaud his erlichkeit, but the rest of us are not impressed. Few will say it but his stupidity caused a great chilul hashem. Passengers were delayed and some were uneccesarilty frightened.


    This is not always a possibility depending on flight schedules. Security personnel and flight crews are supposed to have cultural sensitivity training, allowing them to identify what is a normative expression of one's religion. Apparently in this case, such training failed.

    The question of whether one should stand or constitute a minyan in flight is another issue. Some Gedolim, most notably R' Ovadiah Yosef, are against the practice. I have heard from a talmid of R' S.Z. Auerbach that he was as well. Others are for the practice.

    Specifically R' Yosef rules that EVERYONE aboard the plane must agree to the holding of said minyan in order to do it. I was once aboard a flight with him that was, excluding the flight attendent, all religious men(some D"L but mostly Chareidi). When it came time to daven, the flight attendant protested. R' Yosef ruled that, in accordance with his previous ruling, to form a minyan or to stand for the Amidah was thus forbidden.

    This has gotten me into many an argument with the in flight Chabadnik who wants to form a minyan in the middle of the aisle... but there you have it.

    ReplyDelete
  3. US Airwats 3079 Leaves at 7:20 AM and arrives in Kentucky 9:49 AM.

    Daven at home, in the airport lounge or when you get there.

    It was a chilul hashem, period.

    No excuses for stupidity.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I once took an early flight from Sudbury to Toronto that left before netz so no chance of davening in the airport. Upon arrival in Toronto I had a connection elsewhere and my arrival was timed to leave me 5-10 minutes before starting to work so no chance davening before or after the flight. I took a moment to explain to the stewardess that for religious reasons I needed to stand in the galley for 20 minutes and I would do my best to not get in the way. Went off without a hitch.
    Sometimes we have to remember that asking permission and explaining actions can go a long way to preventing problems.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I agree about the airline's shortcomings on religious sensitivity. At the same time this wasn't just poor judgement by one young man. In the post-WWII era, I watched the new yeshiva culture heap contempt on those who were concerned to understand and respond to the sensibilities of non-Jews. By now the default rule is "the heck with the goyim. My right to religious freedom means I should not waste any time thinking about how it feels or looks to anyone else.

    ReplyDelete
  6. The kid was on a flight for about a hour, no connecting flights, no nothing.

    Ask yourself why adults never seem to be involved in incidents like this.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Why are you publicly embarrassing a 17 year old kid who must have figured it was all right because after all people have been known to wear tefillin on planes, especially out of NY?

    Sounds like you have more "growing up" to do.

    Rav Scheinberg tells people by the way to daven in the bathrooom. He holds that airplane bathrooms do not have the same din as a regular bathroom. Not sure if anyone agrees with that.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I wrote about called, "The Outsider's Guide to Orthodox Judaism" which can help avoid these unpleasant incidents. Give it to your non-orthodox coworkers, friends, bosses, (flight attendants!)...It's available on amazon.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Yerachmiel Lopin's right to religious freedom is not a halachic principle. Because it's a U.S. principle, the davener was not arrested.

    Unless Yerachmiel Lopin knows all about the rituals of the Hindus, Buddhists, and various Christian and Muslim sects, it's hypocritical to expect an entire airplane full of diverse passengers to understand that the religious ritual being performed was not some sort of suicide rite.

    Think of it from their point of view...someone dressed with a head covering pulls two black boxes out of his bags, straps them to himself, picks up a book with incomprehensible words in them, and then begins swaying and quietly chanting, and will not respond when spoken to.

    So, there he is in all of his piety thoughtlessly generating fear amongst his fellow passengers because he is so self assured of his moral superiority that he's positive everyone on the plane understands what Tefillin is all about.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I agree with Yerachmiel above. And I the only one who looks aghast when a Hachnasas Sefer Torah blocks off one or more (major) streets and thus inconveniencing many? (In a recent case I witnessed, a large park was right nearby). Also, what would happen if an emergency vehicle needed to get thru quickly?

    ReplyDelete
  11. This boy made a Kiddush Hashem. I envy his schar.

    ReplyDelete
  12. What about davening without tefilin and puting them on later, clearly not a lechtchilah situation but sensible in the circumstances

    ReplyDelete
  13. Growing Up said..

    US Airwats 3079 Leaves at 7:20 AM and arrives in Kentucky 9:49 AM.

    Daven at home, in the airport lounge or when you get there.

    It was a chilul hashem, period.

    No excuses for stupidity.


    You are correct, there are no excuses for stupidity including your own.

    Earliest Tefflillin in NYC, is 6:20. Flights start boarding 45min prior to a flight(around 6:35).

    In Kentucky Latest Shema is 9:43...
    Neitz HaChama(the earliest one can say the Amidah) is 7:13. Exactly seven minutes before the flight was scheduled to depart. So how exactly was he supposed to pray before hand? Praying on the plane was most likely his only option.

    While I do not expect the passengers to understand, I do expect the flight attendants to understand.

    ReplyDelete
  14. In reality, we are supposed to wear tefillin all day, not just during shacharit davening. Perhaps it is our failure to keep this commandment that causes the non-Jews to have never seen it before. And furthermore, since we are customarily not following the actual mitzvah, why not put on the tefillin after the flight, for mincha, or to learn for 10 minutes later in the day, or any other setting when there won't be a plane full of people thinking you are trying to bring them express in a ball of flaming fury to allah akbar?

    There is no difference between doing this vs. putting it on specifically to say the shemoneh esray of shacharit and associated tefilot. In either case it is the modern version of the actual mitzvah. So if we cherrypick when to put it on, clearly daat needs to be applied on a plane when one needs to daven shacharit - that this may not be the most appropriate time to put them on.

    Now let's hear the onslaught of all the "frummers" calling me am haaretz... I can't wait.

    ReplyDelete
  15. In reality, we are supposed to wear tefillin all day, not just during shacharit davening. Perhaps it is our failure to keep this commandment that causes the non-Jews to have never seen it before. And furthermore, since we are customarily not following the actual mitzvah, why not put on the tefillin after the flight, for mincha, or to learn for 10 minutes later in the day, or any other setting...

    There is no difference between doing this vs. putting it on specifically to say the shemoneh esray of shacharit and associated tefilot. In either case it is the modern version of the actual mitzvah. So if we cherrypick when to put it on, clearly daat needs to be applied on a plane when one needs to daven shacharit - that this may not be the most appropriate time to put them on.


    In a sense you are correct. Ideally we should wear Tefillin all day long. The Gra did, as do people today who follow his Shitta. However most do not, and for very good reason.

    First the reason that they must be worn for Shacharit, comes from Berachot 14b, where our sages say that reciting the Shema without wearing Tefillin is tantamount to bearing false witness. The Tur and the Shulchan Aruch rule the same in O"H Siman 25:4. Specifically the Sh"A states, "It is necessary that tefillin be upon him at the time of Kriat Shema and Tefila." It appears from the words of the Mishna Berurah(S"K 14) that this applies only to Kriat Shema of Yotzer Or. As rules MaRan Ovadia Yosef, Halikot Olam Parashat Vayera, Yabia Omer 1:4, Yahaveh Da'at 6:2. The Ari Z"L however as recorded in Sha'ar HaKavanot drushei Kriat Shema, as well as the introduction of Eitz Haim felt that this also applied to the Kriat Shema of Korbanot, as so rules the Ben Ish Hai(Veyara letter 2), Divrei Shalom Minhagei Beit E-l letter 15, Shemen Sasson on Sha'ar HaKavanot p. 22 letter 9, and Rav Avner Anjin Divrei Shalom Chadash Siman 30 Seif 1(the latter is essentially the Mishneh Berura for Mekubalim).

    Now concerning wearing Tefillin all day, the Shulchan Aruch 37:2 states, "Their(Tefillin) mitzvah is to be upon him all day. But because they require that the body be clean, that he not break wind and that he not take his mind off of them, and not everyone is able to careful in them, it is the custom to not wear them all day. In every instance a person needs to be careful when then are upon him at the time of Kriat Shema and Tefilla."

    The only person that I know of in the last 500+ years that went against this general custom was the Gra. Even the Ari Z"l in his most elevated level did not feel that he was able to be appropriately careful. For that matter in Sha'ar Gilgulim he relates that several of the Tanaim and Amoraim failed thus, to their sorrow in the world to come.

    Certainly if one feels that he is able to show the necessary respect to the Tefillin he may wear that additional amounts time, especially in Torah study where, like the Amidah, one does not need to have them constantly in mind. However, the temptation for idle chatter or stray thoughts has grave consequences in such a case and extreme caution should be taken.

    As an example in Sha'ar Gilgulim the Ari brings the case of one of the Amoraim, who he says while reciting Uva L'tzion, had such intense Kavvanah that he actually saw the kise hakavod. Unfortunately in his ecstasy his daat slipped from his tefillin for the briefest moment, for which he was being punished for 1000yrs.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Rav Scheinberg does NOT C'V advise anyone ever to daven in the plane bathroom. That is an outright lie.

    In fact I asked Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, shlita, if one should pray with a minyan on an airplane. He said yes, adding that he does it "all the time." While strictly speaking it might be permitted to pray at your seat, Rabbi Scheinberg prefers that one pray with a minyan, but quietly in a way that doesn't disturb others.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "As an example in Sha'ar Gilgulim the Ari brings the case of one of the Amoraim, who he says while reciting Uva L'tzion, had such intense Kavvanah that he actually saw the kise hakavod. Unfortunately in his ecstasy his daat slipped from his tefillin for the briefest moment, for which he was being punished for 1000yrs."

    What do you mean that his daat slipped from his tefillin? When you say kriat shema, you are supposed to do so with kavannah and your daat is supposed to be focused on kriat shema. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying (or the Ari for that matter).

    There are certain prohibitions involved with wearing tefillin, but it sounds like in the modern era/the past 400-500 years these got extended to include far more than what was originally understood or intended. Am I wrong in saying that?

    Let us keep in mind that x number of passengers had their flights rescheduled and were caused a loss over this.

    When the Talmud says it is "tantamount" to bearing false witness, does that mean it is actually forbidden, especially when a person has intention to apply the tefillin later on (when he gets off the plane) and will certainly do so?

    All of the sources you quote are indeed describing the modern version of the mitzvah which I referred to.

    ReplyDelete
  18. What do you mean that his daat slipped from his tefillin? When you say kriat shema, you are supposed to do so with kavannah and your daat is supposed to be focused on kriat shema. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying (or the Ari for that matter).

    According to the Ari and most Poskim that I am familiar with, one needs to constantly have in mind that one is wearing Tefillin, except for when one is praying the Amidah and immersed in Torah Study. The Kavvanah of the Amidah or Torah study are the only times when one is allowed to be so focused that he forgets about his Tefillin.

    There are certain prohibitions involved with wearing tefillin, but it sounds like in the modern era/the past 400-500 years these got extended to include far more than what was originally understood or intended. Am I wrong in saying that?


    These prohibitions as far as I know go back to the Rishonim, which most claim they come from the Geonim, who in turn claim to have them from Amoraim ect...

    So I have a hard time understanding what you are saying.


    Let us keep in mind that x number of passengers had their flights rescheduled and were caused a loss over this.


    The problem here is not that a young man put on Tefillin. Rather that problem is two fold. One a flight crew servicing New York was lacking the necessary sensitivity training.

    Secondly, as can be found in the report by the Fort Hood commission, by Executive order of the President of the United States, the FBI, TSA(sky marshals) and CIA are forbideen to investigate suspicious behavior on the part of Muslims. So when they even recieved calls from the father of the Boxer Shorts Bomber warning them, they did pursue.

    This incompetence leaves flight crews(and anyone else with a brain) rather edgy as they essentially know that another attack will most likely happen and their government is not really doing anything to prevent it. So misunderstandings happen.


    When the Talmud says it is "tantamount" to bearing false witness, does that mean it is actually forbidden, especially when a person has intention to apply the tefillin later on (when he gets off the plane) and will certainly do so?


    Yes. One must wear Tefillin when one says the Shema. On account of his flight's departure and arrival times, there was no other real time to say Kriat Shema, but on the plane.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Aaron S. should do more investigating before shouting that people are liars.

    Rav Scheinberg might not generally advise davening in the airplane bathroom but there is a rov in Boro Park who tells everyone that he had mentioned to Rav Scheinberg that he feels uncomfortable davening on an airplane which is when Rav Scheinberg advised doing it in the bathroom. The set up there is that everything is flushed to a different area of the plane and the surface is cleaned with the blue chemical.

    ReplyDelete
  20. rabbousyia u are missing the whole point in davening! To daven in the bathroom today, forget about the cleanliness, u still in a planes bathroom more then 20 mins they are going to think u want to blow up the plane. Davening a bit later is more then ok, according to the halacha, as long as u say shema. We have turned davening into terrorist attacks and tefillah bezibur on a monday night at a football game we pass up! don't become more frummer on a plane then a regular day! Or daven in the airport before or after take off!

    ReplyDelete
  21. Rav Scheinberg says it is preferable to stand up and form a minyan on a plane. He does not permit bathroom davening in the air.

    ReplyDelete
  22. In the case of a yochid who is uncomfortable, Rav Scheinberg has said differently. Many people have heard R' Yitzchok Yarmush say this in shiurim in Yeshiva Derech Chaim that Rav Scheinberg was mattir him to daven in the bathroom when he asked the shayla. Other rebbeim have also said this bishmo.

    Because airlines are so nervous about bathroom visits these days, this psak is probably no longer relevant except for a quick mincha.

    And it's interesting that Aaron who is so quick to defend every single step or misstep of gedolim would not ask how he could verify this information before insisting it could not be true.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Re: Rav Scheinberg's psak about davening on an airplane, see:

    http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/94/Q1/

    ReplyDelete
  24. "These prohibitions as far as I know go back to the Rishonim, which most claim they come from the Geonim, who in turn claim to have them from Amoraim ect..."

    What we "have" from amoraim appears in the Talmud. And what we have from rishonim appears in the writings of rishonim. (also what we have from gaonim is in the writings of gaonim and/or reported in their name(s) by rishonim). It appears that there was innovation applied to the prohibitions involved with wearing tefillin and that these came out at a later date, perhaps to explain why the "minhag" or the local custom generally became not to wear them all the time. Meaning, stringencies were added. At a later date. But obviously, the gemara indicates that there was a time that people Did wear them all the time. And obviously this is what the Gra bases his psak on. So what don't you understand about what I am saying?

    Do you admit that at some later date (be it the 1600's 1700's etc), there were additional prohibitions attached to the wearing of tefillin, and additional considerations that were not attached to this mitzvah in the past? Or am I wrong in thinking this? It should be very easy for you to answer such a question given your level of knowledge as advertised in this website.

    "Secondly, as can be found in the report by the Fort Hood commission, by Executive order of the President of the United States, the FBI, TSA(sky marshals) and CIA are forbideen to investigate suspicious behavior on the part of Muslims. "

    1. Please cite your source. 2. This is incredibly stupid if it's true. 3. If it was true why would they have raised an alert about the Jewish guy with wires? Who says they even thought he was a Jew and not a Muslim? It seems they did the right thing by erring on the side of caution so that hundreds of people don't go in a flaming ball of fire straight to allah akbar. In that case it seems they disregarded this supposed memo of the president.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Interestingly, I asked my rabbi, and he said unless he's on El-Al (since they are Jews and know what it is) he never puts on tefillin on a plane.

    I said, is it forbidden to say kriat shema without wearing tefillin? He said "Chas veshalom."

    I said what about if you're on a plane and due to the flight times, you will not be able to put on tefillin until after zman tefillah if you wait until landing, he said "Fine, what's the problem? Put them on afterwards."

    As to the guy who caused a plane to be rerouted, he said he "got what was coming to him."

    So much for an issur, huh? Mekubal where did you get that from? My rabbi is well aware of that gemara in Brachot. Nonetheless there is no issur to say kriat shema without tefillin in his opinion.

    (Same anonymous as above asking questions to mekubal)

    ReplyDelete
  26. Do you admit that at some later date (be it the 1600's 1700's etc), there were additional prohibitions attached to the wearing of tefillin, and additional considerations that were not attached to this mitzvah in the past? Or am I wrong in thinking this? It should be very easy for you to answer such a question given your level of knowledge as advertised in this website.

    Considering that these stringencies are found in the Shulchan Aruch and the Tur both of which were written before the 1600's yes you are very much mistaken in thinking this. The Shulchan Aruch actually quotes the Tur exactly, when he says:Their(Tefillin) mitzvah is to be upon him all day. But because they require that the body be clean, that he not break wind and that he not take his mind off of them, and not everyone is able to careful in them, it is the custom to not wear them all day. In every instance a person needs to be careful when then are upon him at the time of Kriat Shema and Tefilla. Considering the Baal HaTurim was niftar around 1340, it definitely had to be written before then. In his commentary the Beit Yosef cites the Rif, the Ran and Tosefot as agreeing. That takes us back even further.

    1. Please cite your source. I did, you can read it online. Just google it.

    ReplyDelete

  27. So much for an issur, huh? Mekubal where did you get that from?


    I have already cited my sources. To be absolutely specific R' Ovadiah Yosef writes in three different places that it is an issur. As does the Mishneh Berura, see above citations.

    If you have a Rav that is on such a level to argue with Gedolim such as these, ask him to write a Teshuva showing where they are wrong, and post it. It will be interesting reading. But excuse me, if in the meantime, I hold by recognized Torah authorities, not an unnamed communal Rav.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Regarding tefilin. It was noted by various rishonim that there was widespread ignoring of the mitzva of tefilin in their times. This was not that they weren't wearing all day but that Jews were not wearing it all.

    Some of the texts apparently were written to provide an excuse for why people weren't wearing tefilin and perhaps to make the mitzva more acceptable.

    That would explain the change in written descriptions over time.

    This might also explain why there was a dispute between Rashi and Rabbeinu Tam regarding tefillin.

    ReplyDelete
  29. "1. Please cite your source. I did, you can read it online. Just google it."

    Citing it would involve posting the web address as a link I could click on to bring me to the article. Saying "it exists, just google it" is not citing a source.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Thank you, Rabbi E, for a very reasonable explanation.

    ReplyDelete
  31. "I have already cited my sources. "

    Actually Mekubal, all you had said was a one-word answer in response to my question:

    "When the Talmud says it is "tantamount" to bearing false witness, does that mean it is actually forbidden, especially when a person has intention to apply the tefillin later on (when he gets off the plane) and will certainly do so?"

    You said:
    "Yes. One must wear Tefillin when one says the Shema. On account of his flight's departure and arrival times, there was no other real time to say Kriat Shema, but on the plane."


    So you said "Yes," that it is assur to do so without tefillin.

    Clearly there is a miscommunication here. My rabbi responded to the proposal that there is an issur to say kriat shema without tefillin with: "chas veshalom." I even asked another rabbi I am close with today the same question. He said one should wear tefillin for morning kriat shema but if there is some reason why he can't or is unable to, he still has to say kriat shema without them and when possible, put them on later in the day. One is not excused from saying kriat shema if they cannot put on the tefillin for whatever reason, and they are not doing something assur by saying it without them.

    Seems like none of the rabbis I know agree with "Gedolim such as these." Are you sure you're understanding properly my question and your answer and the positions? It does seem odd that it would be called an issur because it really boils down to reading out loud a few paragraphs of Chumash (with or without tefillin).

    ReplyDelete
  32. Seems like none of the rabbis I know agree with "Gedolim such as these." Are you sure you're understanding properly my question and your answer and the positions?

    Once again here are my initial sources:
    First the reason that they must be worn for Shacharit, comes from Berachot 14b, where our sages say that reciting the Shema without wearing Tefillin is tantamount to bearing false witness. The Tur and the Shulchan Aruch rule the same in O"H Siman 25:4. Specifically the Sh"A states, "It is necessary that tefillin be upon him at the time of Kriat Shema and Tefila." It appears from the words of the Mishna Berurah(S"K 14) that this applies only to Kriat Shema of Yotzer Or. As rules MaRan Ovadia Yosef, Halikot Olam Parashat Vayera, Yabia Omer 1:4, Yahaveh Da'at 6:2. The Ari Z"L however as recorded in Sha'ar HaKavanot drushei Kriat Shema, as well as the introduction of Eitz Haim felt that this also applied to the Kriat Shema of Korbanot, as so rules the Ben Ish Hai(Veyara letter 2), Divrei Shalom Minhagei Beit E-l letter 15, Shemen Sasson on Sha'ar HaKavanot p. 22 letter 9, and Rav Avner Anjin Divrei Shalom Chadash Siman 30 Seif 1

    Now if you are asking if one is permitted, or should not say the Shema when he does not own Tefillin, and none are available to him. No, he should say the Shema.

    However, to do so when Tefillin are readily available is quite problematic.

    Most people today do not fall into the category of those who do not have tefillin. Most people own tefillin(at least one set) that is far more mehadrin than anything previous generations had. So to not put them on for the recital of the Shema is to willingly transgress. The Ben Ish Hai states that in doing so one transgress eight positive m'doraitta commandments.

    I have never seen a single psak by a competent Torah authority that excuses a person from Tallit and Teffilin just because they are on an airplane. Some require that a person pray sitting, but all have required that they put on Talit and Teffilin.

    ReplyDelete
  33. " 'So much for an issur, huh? Mekubal where did you get that from?'

    'I have already cited my sources. To be absolutely specific R' Ovadiah Yosef writes in three different places that it is an issur. As does the Mishneh Berura, see above citations.'"


    Interesting because my rabbi today pointed me to Mishna Brura siman samech vav of hilchoth kriath shema. If you look at the halacha listed under Mem, it says quite clearly that one can say kriat shema without tefillin - that is NOT assur. In that case, the sheliach hasn't brought the tefillin to him in time, it is approaching the end of zman tefillah, and he is afraid it won't get to him in time before sof zman kriat shema or similarly sof zman tefillah. Mishna Brura advises the person to say kriat shema before sof zman kriat shema, then put on tefillin later. So I have to wonder how you found the position you espouse supposedly within the Mishna brura. I told my rabbi that you requested he write a teshuvah on this issue, and he responded that a 10 year old kid knows that halacha in Mishna Brura.

    Here's the Mishna Brura citation:
    שלא הניח. ולא היה יכול להמתין בקריאת שמע עד שיזדמן תפלין משום שהיה מתירא שיעבר זמן קריאת שמע, והוא הדין, אמ מתירא שיעבר זמן תפלה, מתפלל בלי תפלין

    (truncated).

    So where do you see there is an issur to say kriat shema without tefillin, if for some reason a person can't put them on and intends to do so later instead? (Clearly being on a goyish flight where jihadis set their underwear on fire is an extenuating circumstance which gives a good reason not to cause a ruckus on the flight).

    All that you have NOW cited (you did not cite anything before - you just said "Yes." and then vaguely referred to Rav O. Yosef and Mishna Brura), all you have cited NOW, subsequently, are sources that say a person should wear tefillin for kriat shema. Boker tov, Mekubal. But this issue is a special case with extenuating circumstances. And I asked if there is an actual ISSUR to do otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  34. That quote should have said
    שלא הניח. ולא היה יכול להמתין בקריאת שמע עד שיזדמן תפלין משום שהיה מתירא שיעבר זמן קריאת שמע, והוא הדין, אמ מתירא שיעבר זמן תפלה, מתפלל בלי תפלין ותכפ כשיבואו אחר כך לידו באמצע היום או במנחה יניחם ויאמר איזה מזמור

    Just to be clear and not truncate too soon.

    "I have never seen a single psak by a competent Torah authority that excuses a person from Tallit and Teffilin just because they are on an airplane."

    I just heard one yesterday, and he is certainly competent.

    "Now if you are asking if one is permitted, or should not say the Shema when he does not own Tefillin, and none are available to him. No, he should say the Shema."

    I highlight "and none are available to him" and suggest there is no reason to limit this scenario only to a case where he literally does not have a pair on his possession currently. Tefillin are similarly "not available" to a person when he cannot suitably perform the misswah of tefillin at that time (as we know there are certain reasons a person cannot put on tefillin, which you yourself cited for why people today do not wear them all day). It appears my rabbi considers this one of those scenarios. In any case (even if you choose to take that phrase too literally), you just admitted there is not an issur to recite without. And that has been my question all along.

    Your point in the Ben Ish Hai is cute, but keep in mind that I am speaking, and have always been speaking, about a case where the person has every intention to put them on after he gets off the plane, and he clearly feels he cannot put them on in this case. He is not just throwing away the misswah of tefillin with kriat shema, God forbid. And the question is whether it is assur or not.

    If one wants to obsess over this, maybe they can ask the flight attendants first and clear it with them beforehand. But according to my rabbi there is no need or requirement to obsess over it on a non-Jewish flight. If that doesn't sit well with you, that's too bad, mekubal.

    ReplyDelete
  35. All that you have NOW cited (you did not cite anything before - you just said "Yes." and then vaguely referred to Rav O. Yosef and Mishna Brura), all you have cited NOW, subsequently, are sources that say a person should wear tefillin for kriat shema. Boker tov, Mekubal. But this issue is a special case with extenuating circumstances. And I asked if there is an actual ISSUR to do otherwise.

    You quite obviously have a reading comprehension problem, as all I did was cut and paste those sources from an earlier comment in this very thread. A comment that was in response to you.

    If a person HAS tefillin WITH him, and DOES NOT put them on, he HAS TRANSGRESSED, according to the above sources. Not a single Gadol has said that being on a Goyishe airline is an excuse. Not One!!!

    Airline terrorism and hijackings have been going on for the better part of 40yrs. Yet in all that time, with all the worry of Jihadis and Marxists and whatever extremist group was causing the ruckus at the time, NO GADOL has ever said that person should refrain from fulfilling the mitzvah.

    The only thing that the source you bring proves is that if a person DOES NOT HAVE tefillin, he should pray within zman. Nowhere can you find a source that says if a person DOES HAVE tefillin he should not put them on.

    As I have already said to you many times, and is brought in the sources that I have alredy cited, as well as other places, see prior citations for more referrences, if a person DOES HAVE tefillin with him, and DOES NOT put them on he HAS transgressed.

    ReplyDelete
  36. But according to my rabbi there is no need or requirement to obsess over it on a non-Jewish flight. If that doesn't sit well with you, that's too bad, mekubal.

    By all means follow your Rabbi. Personally I will follow the Gedolei Yisrael, who happen to contradict him.

    Frankly I do not consider most community Rabbanim to be competent poskim. This is a situation that requires an actual posek, not just your personal feelings about what should or shouldn't be done. While I have all the respect in the world for communal Rabbanim and the sacrifice they make for their communities, it does not escape me that most do not crack a sefer after they leave their Yeshivot.

    Rav Berenbaum Z"L once told me that he truly believed that 90% of the communal Rabbanim in the US couldn't even read a daf of Gemmarra without an artscroll.

    You may have quoted your communal Rav, that's great, if you think he is of the level to argue on all of the Gedolim that have said otherwise, by all means follow him. However, unless I see it in the name of a recognized posek, I don't trust it.

    ReplyDelete
  37. I wouldn't call my rabbi a "community rabbi" and the fact that you challenge his competency (without knowing him) is laughable. He is an "actual posek" and my "personal feelings" are irrelevant to this because I am citing his opinion, not mine, even if I do happen to agree with him, since not only is his position logical, but I respect his vast wisdom and knowledge of the sources as well as his daath. Ironically, he had a suggestion for you that I did not post here the first time because I didn't want you to feel bad. Now it seems I have no choice once you start throwing around attacks and hiding behind "I hold by gedolei Yisrael" and "your rabbi argues on the gedolim." My rabbi did suggest (since you call yourself 'mekubal') that you "stick to kaballah" or perhaps go into computer programming...

    " communal Rabbanim and the sacrifice they make for their communities, it does not escape me that most do not crack a sefer after they leave their Yeshivot."

    Once again my rabbi is not a "communal rabbi," and I assure you he learns every day. Do not fear.

    "Rav Berenbaum Z"L once told me that he truly believed that 90% of the communal Rabbanim in the US couldn't even read a daf of Gemmarra without an artscroll. "

    Irrelevant since my rabbi is not amongst the "communal rabanim in the US" and since my rabbi does not learn with artscroll. I fail to see how this is relevant.

    "You may have quoted your communal Rav, that's great, if you think he is of the level to argue on all of the Gedolim that have said otherwise, by all means follow him. However, unless I see it in the name of a recognized posek, I don't trust it."

    No, I quoted a posek, and it seems that you choose who you consider a 'recognized posek' vs. an 'unrecognized posek' based on whether you like their positions or not. This does not bode well for credibility or intellectual honesty. You can call anyone you want "not recognized" but the gedolim that my rabbi knows seem to think he is capable of learning.

    ReplyDelete
  38. "The only thing that the source you bring proves is that if a person DOES NOT HAVE tefillin, he should pray within zman. Nowhere can you find a source that says if a person DOES HAVE tefillin he should not put them on. "

    The real issue here was the following question: "IS IT ASSUR TO SAY KRIATH SHEMA WITHOUT TEFILLIN?"

    Your initial answer was "Yes." Vaguely mentioning Rav Ovadiah Yosef in 3 places and Mishna Brura. In subsequent posts you have now changed your tune. That was signified by:

    "Now if you are asking if one is permitted, or should not say the Shema when he does not own Tefillin, and none are available to him. No, he should say the Shema."

    So if you say this, then where is the issur? I asked if it was assur to say kriath shema without tefillin. Time after time after time. And you insisted yes. Now you admit there is no issur, as the Mishna Brura very plainly establishes.

    As to the question of the young man on the plane with his tefillin, my rabbi did say that he himself does not put on tefillin on a plane except on an El Al flight. I am sure he has justification for what he is doing. He would not just do something for no reason. I can ask him to elaborate but it is quite clear that the intellectual honesty is lacking from this discussion, and I doubt there will be any use to extending this. But I am quite confident and convinced that there is undoubtedly an additional factor you are ignoring which justifies the actions of my rabbi. If you would like this to continue, to be educated in his opinion, refrain from the attacks on credibility or stature because based on what you said in this thread, you misled many people and there is only one person who deserves attacks at this point. You initially did say it was assur to say kriath shema without tefillin, stam, even in a case where a person intends to put them on later. Let's recap that:

    I said: When the Talmud says it is "tantamount" to bearing false witness, does that mean it is actually forbidden, especially when a person has intention to apply the tefillin later on...

    You said: Yes. One must wear Tefillin when one says the Shema.

    So this clearly flies in the face of the Mishna Brura yet you cited MB for it later on. So let us be humble and intellectually honest and perhaps this conversation can continue toward a constructive conclusion.

    ReplyDelete
  39. No, I quoted a posek, and it seems that you choose who you consider a 'recognized posek' vs. an 'unrecognized posek' based on whether you like their positions or not. This does not bode well for credibility or intellectual honesty. You can call anyone you want "not recognized" but the gedolim that my rabbi knows seem to think he is capable of learning.

    Let's be clear. I choose the Posek HaDor, MaRan HaRav Ovadiah Yosef AND the Ben Ish Hai, over your as yet unnamed super posek.

    I cited Rav Ovadiah Yosef the first time, I cited him to you again. You have an issue with his psak, take it up with him.

    ReplyDelete
  40. In subsequent posts you have now changed your tune.

    Not so. What is an issur in one circumstance is perfectly permissible in another. For instance if you asked me, may a person turn on a light on Shabbat?

    I would answer, "No it is an issur."

    However, if you then qualify and say that there is an issue of Pikuach Nefesh, then I would say, "Yes he may. In that specific instance."

    What you have here are two different cases. One is where a person is traveling amongst goyim, and has Tefillin readily available to him. May he pray without them, when they are readily available? That is one case. In which case the Gedolei Yisrael for generations have answered that he may not. I know a Rav that personally asked this Shaila of Rav Neventzal and Rav Scheinberg after having his tefillin sawed open by airport security. If he could transport them another way and not pray with them on the plane. They both answered that he must take them with him and pray with them on the the plane if that is zman, that to intentionally leave them behind or not put them on was assur.

    Now you bring a case where a person has no Tefillin and cannot hope to get them within zman, that is a completely different case. The Torah is not going to hold a person over for a mitzvah that they simply cannot fulfill.

    By all means hold by your own Rav. But understand that I have this position from three different Gedolim.

    Go back and tell your posek that I heard this position from Rav Neventzal, from Rav Scheinberg and from Rav Ovadiah. Then see what he says. His answer to that will be enlightening.

    So let us be humble and intellectually honest and perhaps this conversation can continue toward a constructive conclusion.

    I am. The MB is discussing different cases. When dealing with the laws of Tefilla you will find that is often the case. For instance the Ben Ish Hai, says that when a person is praying the Amidah, they should stand perfectly still, and their eyes should not deviate from their siddur. Yet if a child soils the floor, he rules that one should move. If there are others nearby who don't notice one should in some way gesture to them(never mind that he says it is major issur to distract a person praying the Amidah) to show them of the problem. Or if a Kohen is in the middle of Modim when the Shliach Tzibur begins Retze he is allowed to ascend to bless the people, without washing his hands(there is one issur) and he is walking while davening(there is another).

    You really need to understand that there are only three blanket issurim that fit all situations, and we currently are not discussing one of them.

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.