Sunday, October 27, 2019

Bitul Kidushin Meeting - in Lakewood



    Did they mention Rav Shmuel at all?


  3. You didn't answer my question

  4. Just joining the discussion...

    beTiv Gittin veKidushin is not like hatoras Nedarim or shlogen kapores

    You can fool some of the people some of the time, you cannot fool the Ribono shel Olam at any time. Listen up mr. bossor bossor kosher kosher and domso leTamar zonso tamar, you are in the cross hairs, teitze mize umize vehavlad yihye mamzer! You heard it kivyachol from the horses mouth. You cannot pull a rabbit from a hat, or an ace from under the sleeve and declare Mutar Mutar, hakol yihye mutorim lach. It's just not the way things work. Worthless, garbage Heter. Ein kaan lo Heter velo klum!

    This whole saga is/was Mezuyef mitocho Umigabo from the get-go Rackman style, mitchilas hachaliva ad gmar hoassiye. Starting from the Mysterious illness makeh beseser, to the Mysterious Psychiatrist beilum shem ubehe'elem dovor, Kangaroo BD condemning a ham sandwich in absentia asher lo haya velo nivra when the price is right, 60 K a pop. Veim ken, lo shovkes chayey lechol biryah, no matter how much the chazir fissel shows kosher simanim, and no matter how many times you declare kosher kosher - Mutar Mutar, it still remains ossur kechazir. Chizru bachem maher, umiyad!

    Rov Minyan uRov Binyan,

    Gedoilei uPoskeio Yisrael BeGolah

    uBD godol shebeYerushalayim

  5. Rackman would say, if they used their energy to find solutions rather than attacking him, there wouldn't be a need for this style of beit din.

  6. you mean to say that there are no solutions? or that if there were , then the Gedolim would have already implemented them? In Rav Moshe's time, he was the only person would find releases, even his close friends didn't agree with him. That implies that the above statement is closer to being true than being nonsense.

  7. “Bitul Kidushin Meeting - in Lakewood”
    Our Torah and Mishnah sources:
    “A man takes יקח a wife and possesses her ובעלה She fails to please him [he must be willing to divorce her] because he finds something obnoxious [witnesses must see the giving of the get] ערות דבר about her, and he writes her וכתב לה [must be in writing to her] a bill of divorcement [total break] ספר כריתות, hands it to her [he or his messenger to her] ונתן בידה, and sends her away ושלחה from his house [the get must be clear that he is sending her away] מביתו; she leaves ויצאה his household and becomes והלכה והיתה the wife of another man לאיש אחר; then this latter man rejects her ושנאה האיש האחרון, writes her וכתב לה a bill of divorcement ספר כריתות, hands it to her ונתן בידה, and sends her away from his house ושלחה מביתו; or the man who married her last dies. Then the first husband בעלה הראשון who divorced her אשר שלחה shall not take her לקחתה to wife again להיות לו לאשה since she has been defiled הטמאה [i.e., disqualified for him]—for that would be abhorrent תועבה היא to the Lord. You must not bring sin תחטיא upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you as a heritage.” (Deuteronomy 24:1-4).
    Kiddushin 2a:
    “Mishnah. A woman is acquired נקנית [in marriage] in three ways and acquires her freedom וקונה את עצמה [lit., acquires herself] in two. She is acquired נקנית by money, by deed, or by intercourse. By money: Beth Shammai maintain, a denar or the worth of a denar. Beth Hillel rule, a perutah or the worth of a perutah. And how much is a perutah? An eighth of an Italian issar. And she acquires her freedom וקונה את עצמה by divorce בגט or by her husband's death. A yebamah היבמה is acquired נקנית by intercourse, and acquires her freedom וקונה את עצמה by halizah בחליצה or by the yabam's ההיבם death."
    Yes I agree with Ehud 100%. I spoke yesterday with my case analyst at SCOTUS. She has my papers. Will SCOTUS give me a new number?

  8. Kol ma deosser lan rachmono shorei lei kevossei. Asher ossar lonu es *horayos* vehitir lanu et henseios al yedey chupah vekidushin - "kedas Moshe veYisrael". To be meikil is not the same as a being a Kal. R' Moshe was doing various heterim very very sparingly and took into consideration, * umah yomru hagoyim, uma yomru hayiden, uma ya'assu haBD chotzuf vezaken mamre! Af heim marbim mamzerim, veshofchei damim beYisrael, rachmono leshezvei.

    Please understand, the Torah was not given to violate all esse and lo se'esse at will by finding solutions, rather things were meant to be so as is, by divine design. Although the chachamim were given the koach to modify, they had to be for tikun haOlam and not for convenience sake like the reform movement. Misherobu hashofchei damim, the BD stopped capital punishment. Same thing applies for Gittin and bitul kidushin. The chachamim assessed the criteria for husbands specific causes and rights to justify a call for a Get, and different criteria, causes and rights for wives to demand for one. The Torah does not consider 'shivyon zchuyot' as listed in the Mishneh mefureshes in Ktubot! The Torah considers the children as well for not falling victims to breakups. A Ketuba calls for financial compensation in order to provide a cool off time like Boker veyoda H', since leke Ktuba delo ramei bei tigra it is a built in protection to hold together the Shleimut haBayit as well as many other tkanot. Considering the nature of husbands and wives, thusly the Torah and chachamim tailored their checks and balances of Betiv Gittin and Kidushin. Had you given equal rights for wives in a situation of 'shema nosno eineho beachar', you would have doros of yesomim galore, so that the Mizbeach would run out of tears. The chachamim yordu lesof da'ato shel odom and tailored Tikun Olam accordingly. Not so the reform, they tailor the Torah according to their convenience, by brachot of Matir Assurim with a wink of an eye. Check Schitas Chulin that the nature of the genders are not equal, ze klall godol baTorah. vekal lehovin - hope this helps

    It was the job of Aharon haKohen to promote Shalom Bayis, Peace and Harmony. As chazal explain his technique, he went to -each- partner coaxing them, that it is the *other*, he/she that wants to make up. From this we can observe and learn that it is satan's job fighting for the *ego* of nitzachon purposes only. And that is the Sod haibur! veSod H'; liyereiov

    And that is why the women wept, "Who is going to make us peace", when Aharon haKohen passed on! Veshalom al Yisrael

  9. Each case is different, can't say that Epstein is a general case, nor judge other cases by her criteria.
    A lot of things were abolished at the end of sotah /bayit sheini. There was no functioning kohen gadol.sanhedrin was also in a poor state.

  10. You say for tikkun plan, then there are solutions!
    That's exactly what the Rackman and ibd people are saying. I doubt anyone in this huge asifa would accept tikkun olam!

  11. Solutions?Become a Goy !(like Herzl was)

    That will solve everything!

  12. And that is exactly why no one outside of Rackman style rabbis would even entertain such thoughts. This is the epitome of Kilkul Olam. Pruzbul was a need for Tikkun Olam of the hamon am, on the flip side of the coin for issues of few and far in between, more so when they come under false pretenses lying through their teeth, there is no need. I dare say, that if Doctor Epstein A"H" would have been around at the time, he would give her a good whipping and send her back on her way home. Not every time Lolla wants a lollipop should it be granted to her.

    ibd r'l' approved and ordered whippings and granted gittin bal Korchoch for people of Argentina that did not even exist, as long as they got paid. Nisgale klonam berabim like the one that asked for the alyo shmeno of korban Pesach. Just because you can potentially be metaher sheretz bekuf nun ta'amim, doesn't mean you act upon it. Ele Rackman'echo Yisrael, what a shame!!!

  13. YOU are mixing kilayim. But you do that on a regular basis. Look at the 1919 pogroms in Ukraine, terrible. Worse than anything that happened in Zionism.

  14. Caused by the zionists!!
    did you forget what Herzl Ym"shmo wrote that we have to CAUSE anti antisemitism to get the Jews to emigrate to Israel and not be comfortable anymore in Europe

  15. Not caused by Zionism, you moron. This has been the history of galus.

  16. Prozbul _ tikkun olam, despite the Torah promising that you will get double blessing to cover that year. So, yes, it's a good example of ingenuity.
    Epstein is a case of helping out those you are close to. Ibd and rackman show their ahavas yisrael by helping strangers.
    Hareidi haters don't care about anyone else. That's the bottom line.

  17. wow!
    so you agree with Blu Greenberg
    that halacha can always be modified?

  18. Rav bar Chaim also bashes Zionism, citing the left wing atheist writers from 100 years ago. But Zionism didn't create secularism or reform. Assimilation started 100 years earlier, or even with shabbetai zvi. Zionism only stopped the most far flung people from leaving the Jewish people altogether. Herzl himself was one of those, until his Jewish unconscious awakened him, to stop the tide of assimilation. Today, yeshivas are trying to do what Herzl started, and to bring them back to full Torah observance. Zionism is the beginning of teshuva, both physical and spiritual.

  19. I think you are confusing shmitas ksafim with shmitas karkaot.

    According to the Shulchan Aruch, the K's should have recused themselves in dealing with Epstein, as you explain they are close to. The K's are not involved with experience in inyanei Tiv Gittin altogether, therefore doubly so.

    Ibd and Rackman are megalei panim baTorah shelo keHalacha. Just because they are strangers you cannot do favors al cheshbon acherim. In the spirit of ein HaK'BH mevi tkala al yedei tzadikim, see what happened to ibd with Argentina (fake fraud and phoney) as well as rabbi G...t , he already retracted that if since that's the case, then he would have not given his blessing, although he doesn't undertake personally to urge them to depart.

    Vechi ma inyan Shmitta etzel Har Sinai? Chareidi Haters? Maybe ... Sinai shemisham yordo sinah laolam. Tam venishlam!

  20. She said"where there's a rabbinic will, there's a halachic way".
    Not sure if that is correct. There has to be firstly a halachic way. Then enough backing for it to be acceptable. But even without the backing, there is daas yachid, eg very few voices who permit pilegesh, but there is a pre existing way for that (obviously, in the Torah).

  21. It's not so much about bashing zionism, as it is about showing the inherent contradictions that were contained within it and its limitations (and why it, in its original form, is not enough as a standalone philosophy or a vision going forward). I've seen many of this Rabbi's writings and videos, and he is very in favor of zionism (Jewish statehood, Jewish nationalism aspect of Judaism) and the formation of a Jewish state vs. the alternative. Not identifying with the "religious zionist camp" does not in the slightest mean that he's anti Jewish statehood, like for instance Berel and his fellow travelers.

  22. Yes indeed. He associates the term "Zionism " with the most secular, atheist version, when in fact he takes the religious Zionism ideas and is even more extreme, eg by suggesting Al hanissim for independence day and yom yerushalayim, and quashing many fasts, and the mourning of the 3 weeks.
    Basically, I was saying this stuff 20 years ago 😆

  23. Yes, thanks for pointing out the distinction on prozbul, which is a loophole for a Torah issur nevertheless.
    What's the Argentina business? Link available? Do you mean Rav ZnG who disowned them?

    The K are not connected to ibd. Do Ibd rely on the K-G heteer?
    K have not been attacked by mainstream, only by Dt and eidah/gestetner.
    Why is K immune? Because he is hareidi?

    It's not because eidah Are holier. They are haters, their entire platform is based on hate. Thus they hate and mock Rav Shach, Rav elyashiv.

  24. Pruzbul was a Tkonas Chachamim for a * dire need of the public* to enable commerce, same for heter iska. You just cannot go and manufacture heterim wholesale for convenience sake and make a Baruch matir assurim. That is Shabtai Tzviism, sheim lo ken Torah ma tehe aleha? The Torah is a way of life and to find a way at random will, why then did they not matir sheretz bekuf nun taamim? You must differentiate tween Meikil and a Kal!

    The Reform movement was matir driving a car on Shabbat to Shul, else they couldn't produce a minyan, that is a convenience while trampling on kdushat Shabbat.

    The Argentina busnesss was a sting operation to produce a Get thru @ibd to an entity that did NOT exist, once paid the fee upfront, they swallowed up hook line and sinker without the slightest due diligence of whether it has any credibilty. It has been well covered on this blog, just do the search. Is ibd not aware of Betiv Gittin veKidushin??? That is priortiy requisite #1 before getting close to such matters. So much for the rabbiners of "Beshotim bealim ubemaklot ad sheteitze nafsho, vesod H' lireiov".

    The K's are a scandal of Biblical proportions. They are 1) not qualified *Betiv*, and 2) known to be close to. From cover ups to lies, to non-transparency of who-what and where, one blaming the other, and I meant this, that and the other/neither, left in shambles. No such thing as a Secret Psak as in "Yelamdenu rabeinu Meheichan dantani" S'K' went to E. Yisrael, promised B'Datz to mend things up, but never happened.

    The K's are part n' parcel of the K-G self proclaimed alleged heter, no such thing, that was a ping pong game of 'who' is on first, practicing of shnayim sheossu mlacha achas, and the poor couple is caught holding the bag, paying the consequences. She refrains from having children, is this the *she can do better*? "of aleh Goyim gezogt"

    Immune? Where have you been?
    See the Blog one above this, ALL the mainstream Rabanim, independent rabanim, along with R' Elyashiv as well as many others across the board that were mentioned in previous discussions on this blog , they all came out up in arms BACHEREV uBACHANIS on this churban of Kedushas haBayis with a KOLO DELO POSEIK. Veyivku kol Beis Yisrael al asher sorfu anshei bnei bliyaal.

    Although there are various groups having political differences whether amongst chasidim or litvaks, in this Gittin baal korchoch and Bitul bealama, the are all united as R' Elyashiv came out in a Letter against The scandals in America.

    This money making scheme of Cattle prods and cruel beatings Shomu Shamayim has been concocted by Anshei Bnei Avlo already put out of commission and out of business by locking them up. The Law caught up with them, thank G-d for that.

  25. Shabbetai zvi was Mattir issurim, as a matter of principle, ie he was doing it out of a systematic desire to violate Torah.
    So ibd are doing it out of dire need of their clients.
    Someone who is disabled is patur mitzvos, so they can drive-be driven on shabbat.
    I don't know if ibd are genuine or corrupt.
    Kg was after rav elyashiv was bitter. He opposed get m'oosa in general. Good Shabbes.

  26. I said that K was immune. The letters above are against ibd. Unless by "K" you mean kraus?

    If you mean kamenetsky, show me which mainstream have attacked him. I'm not referring to his brother reb Nosson ztl.

  27. Ehud says “Pruzbul was a Tkonas Chachamim for a * dire need of the public* to enable commerce, same for heter iska.”
    Yes, our Sages, make rulings seemingly contrary to the Torah to solve a problem. Example: Amazing our Sages ruled:
    טור אבן העזר הלכות קידושין סימן כו
    אין האשה נחשבת אשת איש אלא על ידי קדושין שנתקדשה כראוי אבל אם בא עליה אדם בלא קידושין לשם זנות לוקה משום לא תהיה קדשה ד)והיא זונה האמורה בתורה ואפילו לא בא עליה לשם זנות אלא לשם אישות בינו לבינה אינה נחשבת כאשתו אפי' אם יחדה אלא אדרבא כופין אותו להוציאה מביתו
    The problem our Sages were trying to solve was immorality/promiscuity.
    “No Israelite woman shall be a cult prostitute קדשה, nor shall any Israelite man be a cult prostitute קדש.” (Deuteronomy 23:18).
    דברים פרק כג פסוק יח
    לֹא תִהְיֶה קְדֵשָׁה מִבְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְלֹא יִהְיֶה קָדֵשׁ מִבְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל:
    מדרש תנאים לדברים פרק כג פסוק יח
    לא תהיה קדשה מב' יש' הרי זו אזהרה למופנה שנ' (בראשית לח כא) ויאמ' לא היתה בזה קד' (וכל הבועל אשה לשם זנות בלא קידושין לוקה):
    “He inquired of the people of that town, Where is the cult prostitute הקדשה, the one at Enaim, by the road? But they said, There has been no prostitute here קדשה.” (Genesis 38:21).
    בראשית פרק לח פסוק כא
    וַיִּשְׁאַל אֶת אַנְשֵׁי מְקֹמָהּ לֵאמֹר אַיֵּה הַקְּדֵשָׁה הִוא בָעֵינַיִם עַל הַדָּרֶךְ וַיֹּאמְרוּ לֹא הָיְתָה בָזֶה קְדֵשָׁה:
    KA says “Shabbetai zvi was Mattir issurim, as a matter of principle, ie he was doing it of a systematic desire to violate Torah. So ibd are doing it out of dire need of their clients.” What is the problem the ibd is trying to solve?

  28. GA Says: "What is the problem the ibd is trying to solve?"

    the problem, apparently, is that women are not able to receive Gets from their estranged husbands, and are left in limbo /aguno for years.

  29. Kalonymus Anonymus “GA Says: "What is the problem the ibd is trying to solve?" the problem, apparently, is that women are not able to receive Gets from their estranged husbands, and are left in limbo /aguno for years”
    No. The ibd is simply taking the woman’s side at the expense of the man’s side. This is Mendel Epstein et al and their kangaroo court headed by Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag. Judge Freida Wolfson gave Ralbag immunity for his testimony. Marriage is a commitment. It takes 2 to get married and 2 to get divorced.
    Our Sages make rulings to uphold a Torah principle, like “No Israelite woman shall be a cult prostitute קדשה, nor shall any Israelite man be a cult prostitute קדש.” (Deuteronomy 23:18). Or, “When you sell property to your neighbor לעמיתך [i.e., fellow Israelite; see v. 46], or buy any from your neighbor, you shall not wrong תונו one another איש את עמיתו. In buying from your neighbor, you shall deduct only for the number of years since the jubilee; and in selling to you, he shall charge you only for the remaining crop years: the more such years, the higher the price you pay; the fewer such years, the lower the price; for what he is selling you is a number of harvests. Do not wrong לא תונו one another איש את עמיתו, but fear ויראת your God; for I the Lord am your God.” (Leviticus 25:14-17).
    “you may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property for all time. Such you may treat as slaves. But as for your Israelite kinsmen איש באחיו, no one shall rule ruthlessly over the other לא תרדה בו בפרך.” (Leviticus 25:46).
    See "The real collusion is between the Dems and the media." The idb likes to argue their side in the media with demonstrations.

  30. Kalonymus Anonymus says “Prozbul _ tikkun olam, despite the Torah promising that you will get double blessing to cover that year. So, yes, it's a good example of ingenuity. Epstein is a case of helping out those you are close to. Ibd and rackman show their ahavas yisrael by helping strangers. Hareidi haters don't care about anyone else. That's the bottom line.”
    No. See
    Gittin 36a
    “HILLEL INSTITUTED THE PROSBUL. We have learnt elsewhere: A prosbul prevents the remission of debts [in the Sabbatical year]. This is one of the regulations made by Hillel the Elder. For he saw that people were unwilling to lend money to one another and disregarded the precept laid down in the Torah, “If, however, there is a needy person אביון among you, one of your kinsmen in any of your settlements in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, do not harden your heart and shut your hand against your needy kinsman מאחיך האביון. Rather, you must open your hand and lend him sufficient for whatever he needs די מחסרו אשר יחסר לו. Beware lest you harbor the base בליעל thought, The seventh year, the year of remission, is approaching, so that you are mean ורעה עינך to your needy האביון kinsman and give him nothing. He will cry out to the Lord against you, and you will incur guilt והיה בך חטא.” (Deuteronomy 15:7-9).
    The Torah shows God’s ahavas Yisroel by helping the needy. Beautiful. In Lonna v Meir Lonna produces an obvious fake Green July 2007 letter to support her cry agunah. In the K-G garbage heter, Tamar produces a fake PhD psychology letter to support her cry mekach taut. Follow, KA? In Susan v Gerald Susan produces a fake 1995 Rigler Order of Separation to support her case. The US Democrats produced a fake Dr. Ford testimony to knock out Kavanaugh. The Mueller investigation was based on fake Russian collusion. We live in interesting times. God bless Trump, the USA, Netanyahu, and Israel.

  31. Ralbag is nothing to do with the ibd.

  32. It is clear that the sting operation of ibd (Argentina fiasco) proved that it was out of greed for the money, same as with ALL the others. No money, no prod, no forced get, no bitul kidushin, as in "no tikki no laundry" lol. The 'Sod H' lireiov rabbi' aka bealim ubemaklot of ibd gave support to the K's when they beat up Aron in prior of bitul. Such cases are miuta demiuta, and no credible BD would consider bitul kidushin even sparingly. For the Yotzei lemilchama they rather opted get lemafrea and not B.K. of which is much more

    transparent. Those matir assurim rabbis of Shabbos did so for healthy congregants, simply because they couldn't whip up a minyan. Don't know who Kg is, and I referred K's to the rosh yeshivos of father and son of B. Not bechinam needs be Betiv G'vK and done bekoved rosh of sonei betza veyirei cheit.


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