Friday, December 2, 2016

Are women "in the image of G-d?"

We are all familiar with Bereishis (1:27): And G-d created the Man in His Image. In the image of G-d He created him. Male and female He created them.

It seems from this verse that only Adam was created in the image of G-d and not Eve. This implies that only Adam was human and not Eve and by extension that only males are human and not females. I am going to explore this question - to see where it goes and the implications for male-female relationships as well as society as a whole.




There is a major dispute as to how the male and female humans were created.
Nahman b. R. Hisda expounded: What is meant by the text, Then the Lord God formed [wa-yizer] man? [The word wa-yizer] is written with two yods, to show that God created two inclinations, one good and the other evil. ... Or again as explained by R. Jeremiah b. Eleazar; for R. Jeremiah b. Eleazar said: God created two countenances in the first man, as it says, Behind and before hast Thou formed me.  And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man made he a woman. Rab and Samuel explained this differently. One said that [this ‘rib’] was a face, the other that it was a tail.

 According to the view  (Berachos 61a) that man was initially created male and female - basically two individuals joined together - it makes sense that the verse uses the singular form because there was initially only one entity created - that was eventually divided into two distinct entities. But according to the view that Eve was made from Adam's rib or tail - it would seem that she is more of an appendage than a distinct human being. She was only made to allow procreation and provide support (ezer kenego) for Adam. 

What are the consequences for saying that women are not in the image of G-d and does anyone actually say that women are inferior, subordinate beings because they lack the image of G-d?
Abarbanel (Bereishis 1:27): Even though Man was created as male and female, they were not both equally perfected. And even though they were the same species they were not equally in the image of G-d. That is why the verse states, “In the image of G-d He created him (singular), male and female He created them.” In other words only Adam was created in the image of G-d because he was the reason and purpose for Creation. It was only for the necessity of procreation that Man was created as male and female. In fact there is no mention of male and female being created in the image of G-d but only for procreation. Gender is found in all animals and it has nothing to do with the image of G-d. From this we can understand why the Torah doesn't say “man according to his species” but it does say that man was created male and female were created by G-d. That is because man is different than other animals in which the female is on the same level as the male and is fully equal to him in nature and that is why it says about them “according to his species” without giving the male any superiority to the female.  However it is different concerning man because the male is the reason for creation of humans and he alone was created in the image of G-d. Thus the Torah states in the singular grammatical form, In the image of G-d He created him. That is because the male is the one who comprehends mysteries of wisdom and not the female about whom our Sages (Yoma 66b) said, “There is no wisdom in a woman except for the spindle” That is because the creation of the female was only an afterthought to provide the man with a helper and for the purpose of procreation as the Torah states later. So in summary we see that man was originally created alone in perfection while she was made afterwards in order to serve him. So here it just states the fact that she was created but it is only later (Bereishis 2:18-24) that the details if her creation are given. However that understanding seems to be inconsistent with the view (Eiruvin 17a) that male and female were in fact created at the same time as two entities joined together back to back. However in fact our assertion that woman lacks the image of G-d and is inferior to the male is also consistent with the view that Man was created as a hermaphrodite.  In other words man was created with an additional form from which woman was made. Thus it was like man had two aspects (pirtzuf) of male and female as an androgynous being (a Greek word describing a person who has both male and female sexual organs). However the Man was in fact a male in reality while the female aspect was only subordinate and an appendage to the male entity - in order to make a woman from it later. Thus we can explain that when it says Man was created male and female, it means that since the dominate concern was to create an intelligent being whose purpose was intellectual - for that purpose there was no need for the female and thus it was not proper to create with him the female. However this verse of “male and female He created them” teaches that in fact it was not so but rather G-d wanted that man would be created not only with the intellect but also with a non intellectual material aspect...  So even though according to this second view that Man was created with both male and female aspects but the two aspects were not equal in perfection but rather it was the male aspect – the primary one - which was created with the image of G-d.  Man was created as male and intellectual and only secondarily as female to enable the making of a second subordinate entity to serve the male
Aside from the Abarbanel  there is the Netziv.

Netziv(Bereishis 1:26): Let us make man – G-d did not say, “let us make a being like an animal in our likeness” and afterwards call him ‘man’ as is actually written later in Bereishis (5:2). But the phrase, “let us make man” means that there is no need to give man this name – rather his character shows that he is man. But if so it is difficult. Why is it written afterwards that G-d called their name man – which implies that there was a need to give a name...? But rather the matter is like this – that man is different from all the species since all the species were created in such a way that the species was unitary in its purpose and character; which is not the case for man who rose in G-d’s thought to be of two types of character. The one would be cleaving to his G-d, ready and serving in the world like an angel does in the Heavens. And the second is such that he would be political and take care of his own needs; even though he would nonetheless do the will of G-d, it would not be on the level of the first. And behold, according to the first characteristic he is automatically man (adam) based on the phrase ‘I will be similar to the most High – meaning that within him are included all the powers of creation and he rules over everything. And behold he is like the firstborn son of a king who rules like the king. And because of this, everyone understands that he is the son of the king in that they see him ruling over every detail. Which is not the case with the son of the king who is not the firstborn and the king merely makes him rule over some detail and his fellow over another detail and so too with all those that govern the kingdom. It comes out that all of them together are simlar to the king; but each one by himself is only similar to the king when he is given the name of ruler over that detail that he governs. And thus is man – the indiviudal of spiritual sstture is different then the simple individual. And in Shabbos (112b), they hinted to these two types of men. And it is stated in the first version of a particular thatement “this is not a man” and in a second version “thisis an example of a man” –the bexplanationof this being a man of spiritual stature. But the general human species is called man by the nature of the matter in that they as a group rule over the entire creation. And this is according to G-d’s plan. (And so too with the name Israel which indictes being higher thant the nature of creation and the running of the world. It will be explained later in Vayishlach that the whole nation is called Israel, but concerning individuals some are called by the name Israel and some have not reached this.) And if so in the statement “let us make man” its explanation is [that it refers to] the general species of man and it is certainly called man even without being given the name since in this general species is the creation dependent and in this detail they are simlar to the Creator. And Adam specifically before he sinned was worthy of being called man without being given the name; but after he sinned he was given the name of man and it will be explained further.“According to our likeness” – the image is according to our likenss and automaticallly man – who is clothed in it – is in the likeness of G-d and in this is the power of man.
Netziv (Bereishis 1:27) In the image of G-d  - all of nature was included in him. And from the time that it arose in the though and word of G-d that there should be nature, then G-d was called with the name Elokim. And since all of nature is included in man – behold – he is in the image of G-d. But this is not the case except in the man of stature as Adam was before the sin. Afterwards...."Male and female He created them." The verse does not come to explain that this species, more so than all the other creatures, has a male and a female. Rather, [it comes] to teach you that they are two beings, as will be explained below. This is because the male of this species is not at all similar in his character to the female of the same species. As Kohelet says: "One man among a thousand I have found; but a woman among all those I have not found" (Kohelet 7:28). That is, that a man of virtue resembling his Creator in the image of God is found one in a thousand; Which is not the case regarding women – who only fits the second description of man – who is only described as being man 

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Image of G-d defined:

Physical Appearance of the body:

To properly understand the issue it would be helpful to have a clear understanding of what "the image of G-d" means. There are clear sources that it refers to physical appearance.  Avoda Zara (43a-43b):
Sanhedrin(38b):,, Bereishis Rabbah(8:3-11): Avos deRabbi Nossan (chapter 32).

Sanhedrin(46b): AS IF TO SAY WHY WAS HE HANGED? — BECAUSE HE CURSED etc. It has been taught: R. Meir said: A parable was stated, To what is this matter comparable? To two twin brothers [who lived] in one city; one was appointed king, and the other took to highway robbery. At the king's command they hanged him. But all who saw him exclaimed, ‘The king is hanged!’12 whereupon the king issued a command and he was taken down.Sanhedrin(46b):[[ AS IF TO SAY WHY WAS HE HANGED? — BECAUSE HE CURSED etc. It has been taught: R. Meir said: A parable was stated, To what is this matter comparable? To two twin brothers [who lived] in one city; one was appointed king, and the other took to highway robbery. At the king's command they hanged him. But all who saw him exclaimed, ‘The king is hanged!’12 whereupon the king issued a command and he was taken down.

Avos deRabbi Nossan(Chapter 2) Adam was born circumcised as it says and G-d created man in His image


רש"ר הירש (בראשית א:כז) ויברא אלהים את האדם בצלמו. ביטוי זה נשנה כאן פעמים מספר, והרי כאן הדגשה מיוחדת: לבושו הגופני של האדם הוא ראוי לאלהים והולם ייעוד אלהי. כך לימדתנו תורה להכיר ולהעריך את כבודו האלהי של הגוף. ואכן, לא באה תורה רק לקדש את הרוח, אלא בראש ובראשונה: לקדש את הגוף. הנה זה היסוד לכל מוסר אנושי: גוף האדם על כל יצריו וכוחותיו נברא בצלם האלהים; ושומה על האדם לקדש את גופו כראוי לייעודו האלהי. אין לך דבר, החותר תחת כל מוסר, כאותו רעיון תעתועים, המפצל את נפש האדם: הוא מודה בכבודה האלהי של הרוח ומורה לה להתעלות לעולמות עליונים; ואילו לגוף הוא מרשה שרירות משולחת רסן, להתהולל כבהמה בכיעור החושניות; ולגאוני הרוח אף יעניק חנינה מיוחדת - על כל שחיתות מוסרית של הגוף. לא כן ייעוד האדם, כפי שנצטייר בתורת ה'. קדושת הגוף ושמירת צלמו האלהי הן יסוד מוסד לכל זיכוך מוסרי ותנאי לכל מעלה רוחנית. וככל שהרוח מבקשת להתעלות, כן גוברת הדרישה לקדושת הגוף. שעה שהקב"ה כרת ברית עם ישראל, וכך חזר והקים את האנושות הטהורה, - פתח במצות מילה, המקדשת את הגוף. ומצוות רבות הכתובות בתורה לא באו אלא לצורך תקנת הגוף: להוליד את הגוף, לזונו ולקיימו בהכשר טהרת הצלם; למען יוסיף הגוף להיות צלם אלהים - ולא טמא, שקץ ותועבה: 

רש"ר הירש (בראשית א:כו): בצלמנו - כבר הוכחנו שם (עמ' 526), ש"צלם" - קרוב ל"שלם" ("שלמה") ול"סמל" ("שמלה") - מציין רק את הלבוש החיצוני, את התבנית הגופנית. נמצא "בצלמנו" =בלבושנו; הוה אומר: אם יתגשמו ויתלבשו בלבוש חיצוני - כל החסד והרחמים, כל האמת והמשפט והקדושה של הנהגת ה', - הם יתלבשו באותו לבוש, שהבורא חלק לאדם. כבר תבניתו הגופנית של האדם מעידה עליו שהוא בא כח לאל, אלהות עלי אדמות. צלמו של אדם הוא -:
Intellectual achievement 

Other sources indicate it is intellectual achievement concerning abstract philosophical thoughts or Torah.


Rambam(Moreh Nevuchim 1:1):[[כבר חשבו בני אדם, כי צלם בלשון העברי יורה על תמונת הדבר ותארו, והביא זה אל הגשמה גמורה, לאמרו נעשה אדם בצלמנו כדמותנו, וחשבו שהשם על צורת אדם, רוצה לומר תמונתו ותארו... אבל הערתנו בזה הפרק היא לבאר ענין צלם ודמות, ואומר כי הצורה המפורסמת אצל ההמון אשר היא תמונת הדבר ותארו, שמה המיוחד בה בלשון עברי תאר, אמר יפה תאר ויפה מראה... וזהו שם שלא יפול על השי"ת כלל חלילה וחס, אמנם צלם הוא נופל על הצורה הטבעית, רוצה לומר על הענין ההוא באדם, הוא אשר בעבורו תהיה ההשגה האנושית, ומפני ההשגה הזאת השכלית נאמר בו בצלם אלקים ברא אותו, ולכן נאמר צלמם תבזה... ויהיה הנרצה באמרו "נעשה אדם בצלמנו" הצורה המינית, אשר היא ההשגה השכלית, לא התמונה והתאר... אמנם דמות הוא שם מן דמה, והוא גם כן דמיון בענין... וכאשר ייוחד האדם בענין שהוא זר בו מאד, מה שאין כן בדבר מן הנמצאות מתחת גלגל הירח, והוא ההשגה השכלית, אשר לא ישתמש בו חוש ולא מעשה גוף ולא יד ולא רגל, דמה אותה בהשגת הבורא אשר אינה בכלי, ואם אינו דמיון באמת, אבל לנראה מן הדעת תחלה, ונראה באדם מפני זה הענין, רצוני לומר מפני השכל האלקי המדובק בו, שהוא בצלם אלקים ובדמותו, לא שהשם יתברך גוף שיהיה בעל תמונה. (חלק א פרק א)

Olam Habah for women

A related question is whether women get Olam Habah. See the commentaries on Berachos (17a) which asks what is the basis that women get Olam Habah - and answers because they provide a support system for their husband and children to learn Torah. The clear implication is that those women who don't provide a support system for Torah learning - do not get Olam Habah.

Similarly the ignorant will not get Olam Habah unless they support Torah study

Kesubos(111b): R. Eleazar said; The illiterate will not be resurrected, for it is said in Scripture, The dead will not live etc.11 So it was also taught: The dead will not live. As this might [be assumed to refer] to all, it was specifically stated, The lax will not rise, [thus indicating] that the text speaks only of such a man as was lax in the study of the words of the Torah. Said R. Johanan to him: it is no satisfaction to their Master that you should speak to them in this manner. That text was written of a man who was so lax as to worship idols. ‘I’, the other replied, ‘make an exposition [to the same effect] from another text. For it is written in Scripture, For thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the dead. him who makes use of the ‘light’ of the Torah will the ‘light’ of the Torah revive, but him who makes no use of the light of the Torah the light of the Torah will not revive’. Observing, however, that he was distressed, he said to him, ‘Master, I have found for them a remedy in the Pentateuch: But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day; now is it possible to ‘cleave’ to the divine presence concerning which it is written in Scripture, For the Lord thy God is a devouring fire? But [the meaning is this:] Any man who marries his daughter to a scholar, or carries on a trade on behalf of scholars, or benefits scholars from his estate is regarded by Scripture as if he had cleaved to the divine presence. Similarly you read in Scripture, To love the Lord thy God, [to hearken to His voice,] and to cleave unto Him. Is it possible for a human being to ‘cleave’ unto the divine presence? But [what was meant is this:] Any man who marries his daughter to a scholar, or carries on a trade for scholars, or benefits scholars from his estate is regarded by Scripture as if he had cleaved to the divine presence.

Ramchal(Derech HaShem Chapter 2):[[

Rambam(Moreh Nevuchim (3:27;54)

Zohar(2:247b):


Rashbash[1](#324):[[
Pnei Yehoshua[2](Berachos 17a):[[
Chavrusa[3](Berachos 17a):[[



[1] שו"ת הרשב"ש סימן שכד
לפי שהנשים אף על פי שאינן מחוייבות ללמוד תורה אבל זוכות הן לחיי העולם הבא בזכות התורה שמלמדין את בניהם ומוליכין אותם לבית הספר ובזכות שמשמרות את בעליהם עד שבאים מהישיבות, כמו שנזכר בפרק היה קורא אמר ליה רב לר' חייא נשים במאי זכיין, כלומר במה הם זוכות לעולם הבא, אמר ליה באקרויי בנייהו לבי כנישתא ובאתנויי בנייהו בי רבנן ומנטרן לגברייהו עד דאתו מבי רבנן, אם כן אעפ"י שאינן מצוות בתלמוד תורה אבל זוכות הן לחיי העולם הבא בשכר שמסייעין בו. אמנם אם יש יתום ויתומה להשיא, יותר ראוי הוא לפי דעתי שיניחוהו להם, שהרי מוכרים הם ספר תורה לישא אשה כדאיתא בפרק בני העיר.
[2] פני יהושע מסכת ברכות דף יז עמוד א
שם גדולה הבטחה שהבטיח הקדוש ברוך הוא לנשים כו' אמר ליה רב לר' חייא נשי במאי זכיין באקרויי בנייהו כו'. ולכאורה יש לתמוה דמאי קשיא ליה לרב מעיקרא נשים במאי זכיין הרי נצטוו על כרחך מצות לא תעשה כאנשים וכן בכל מצות עשה שאין הזמן גרמא עד שהוצרך לתלות באקרויי בנייהו כו' ועוד דנראה דאיהו מותיב ואיהו מפרק מדלא קאמר דמהדר ליה ר"ח לרב באקרויי בנייהו. והנראה לענ"ד בענין זה לפי שנראה בעליל בהא דאמר לעיל גדולה הבטחה הם ג"כ דברי רב עצמו שכ"ז הוי מרגלא בפומיה והכל סובב אל מקום אחד לפי מאי שפירשתי דהא דהוי מרגלא בפומיה הוא ענין מוסר שצריך אדם לזכך כל רמ"ח אבריו ושס"ה גידיו בעה"ז על ידי קיום רמ"ח מצות עשה ושס"ה מצות לא תעשה כדי שיוכלו כולם ליהנות מזיו השכינה כדפרישית ומשום דלפי"ז לא שייך הך מילתא כי אם באנשים שמקיימים רמ"ח מצות עשה משא"כ בנשים כשתסיר מהם מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא כיון דפטורות ישארו אותן אברים פגומים ולא יוכלו ליהנות מזיו השכינה, ומש"ה מסיק רב במילתיה דאפילו הכי גדולה הבטחה שנתן הקדוש ברוך הוא לנשים וכדי לפרש דבריו אמר ליה רב לר"ח הני נשי במאי זכיין והיינו כדפרישית ובהא מסיק שפיר באקרויי בנייהו ובאתנויי גברייא ונטרין כו' נמצא כיון שהן מסייעות לבעליהן ולבניהן ללמוד תורה לשמור ולעשות כל תרי"ג מצותיה הרי שיש להם שכר אפילו במצות עשה שלא נצטוו עליהם וכן בתלמוד תורה אף על גב שלא נצטוו עליהם ושכר תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם אפ"ה יש להם שכר בכולן וכדאשכחן דדריש ראב"ע ברפ"ק דחגיגה [דף ג' ע"א] בפרשת הקהל כדי ליתן שכר למביאיהם, כן נראה לי בישוב אגדות אלו:
[3] חברותא - הערות ברכות דף יז עמוד א הערה (27
(27). ביאר הגר"א כי אף על פי שיש לנשים הרבה מצוות, הזכות לעוה"ב תלויה במצוה הקשורה בתורה, שהיא ה"אור" המגן על האדם תמיד, ואילו שאר מצות נמשלו ל"נר" שמאיר רק לפי שעה, ואין די בקיומן לזכות בעולם הבא, והוסיף מהרי"ל דיסקין [בריש תורת האהל] ש"עמי הארץ אינם חיים" כי החיות תלויה באור התורה, וכפיה"מ להרמב"ם בפרק חלק ששכר עוה"ב בהתעצמות הנפש במושכלות, וראה שמירת הלשון [יג] ולב אליהו [ויגש]. והפני יהושע ביאר לפי דרכו, שמאמרים אלו באו לעורר האדם לזכך נפשו לעידוני העוה"ב, ולכן מקשה הגמרא, שהרי נשים אין להם תורה, וגם פטורות מהרבה מצוות, ונמצא שהרבה אבריהם לא יוכלו להנות מהעה"ב, ועל כך השיבה שיש להם חלק בכל תורת בניהם ובעליהן. [וראה בשיחות מוסר צה, שתשובת הגמרא, שזכותן בסיוע לתורת בעליהם ובניהם גדולה מזכות תורה שילמדו בעצמן]. וע"ע ביערות דבש [א א].

Possible resolution


The sources dealing with physical appearance appear to apply to both men and women and Jews and  non-Jews. However clearly the Rambam and others understand image of G-d as an intellectual characteristic. From the issue of Olam Habah it would seem that the idea of image of G-d as well as the spirituality for Olam Habah need to be fulfilled by proper development through Torah and mitzvos and that only the potential is given. But there is a clear distinction between men and women.

 Men have the image of G-d and get Olam Habah if they are talmidei chachomim while women are not inherently and independently in the image of G-d nor do they get  Olam Habah or at least not that of the tzadikim. 

Women's only choice is for true spirituality is that  they subordinate their existence to the talmid chachom who is the true image of G-d. This is what the Abarbanel and Netziv both seem to indicate. Thus there are those who themselves are spiritual beings (inherently in the image of G-d through Torah and mitzvos) and there are those who by association and assistance of the  focus of creation (man)  get spiritual status (and they are only said or described as being in the image of G-d). Theoretically women could become talmidei chachomim and do all the mitzvos - but that is not their role. The concept of woman is one who provides support for the talmid chachom and her spiritual perfection is thus indirect- ezer kenegdo.


This distinction seems to fit all the sources

[to be continued]

354 comments :

  1. I don't know, but maybe this explains why Chazal say "the greater the man, the greater the desire" - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/314433.php?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=583dfcba04d30168b6342c62&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

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  2. I don't see your interpretation. Unless you have a clear reliable source that suggests that a woman isn't included, I would say that betzelem Elokim goes on both. The fact that it says Osam, cannot be an indication contrary to that because it is clearly referring to something already mentioned - osam means them, meaning them who we already mentioned. So we interpret it like this: He created the Man in His Image .... made the man in 2 genders male and female he created them. In other words the 'him' turned into a 'them'.

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  3. Kol hagodol michavero yitzro godol hymeno. There is a difference in the timing. The yetzer refers to Ayin roeh, lev chomed, these two phases are when the godol becomes overwhelmed as in Yitzro godol. The third phase is uklei ma'asov gomrin, that's where your medical report comes in.

    For lack of a better example, l will introduce r berlands experience. According to his claims, he didn't have the klei ma'asov to rofl finnish the job, although he got all worked up. In Wall St. they call it "He got caught holding the bag", with a chisaron kis, no pun intended.

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  4. “She was only made to allow procreation and provide support (ezer kenego) for Adam.”
    Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 61b
    Mishnah. A man shall not abstain from the performance of the duty of the propagation of the race [ורביה פריה. “God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it; and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and all the living things that creep on earth.” (Genesis 1:28) ורבו פרו , be fruitful and multiply]. Unless he already has children. [as to the number]. Beth Shammai ruled: two males, and Beth Hillel ruled: male and a female, for it is stated in scripture, male and female created he them [“male and female He created them. And when they were created, He blessed them and called them Man” (Genesis 5:2)].
    Gemara. [This implies] if he has children, he may abstain from performing the duty of propagation but not from that of living with a wife [Since our Mishnah mentions only the exemption from the former and not from that of the latter]. This provides support for a statement R. Nahman made in the name of Samuel who ruled that although a man may have many children he must not remain without a wife, for it is said in the Scriptures, It is not good that the man should be alone [“The Lord God said, “It is not good for man to be alone; I will make a fitting helper for him.” (Genesis 2:18)].
    מלבי"ם בראשית פרשת בראשית פרק ב פסוק יח
    אבל האדם שהוא מדיני בטבע לא יוכל להתקיים לבדו וצריך לו עזר שתעזרהו בהנהגת הבית, במלאכות המיוחדות אל האשה ובגדול הבנים, ולכן לא די לו שיזדווג עם נקבה לפי שעה, רק צריך אשה גם לחברה וצוותא ולבנות את ביתו, ומפני כל הטעמים האלה היה צריך לבנות את חוה מצלעותיו שתהיה דומה אל טבעו כטעם הב', ושתהיה מיוחדת לו כטעם הג', ושתהיה בעזרתו תמיד כטעם הד', וע"ז אמר לא טוב היות האדם לבדו כמו שאר בע"ח שהם לבדם נפרדים מנקבותיהם אחר הזווג, וצריך שאעשה לו מיוחדת לו כטעם הב' והג' עזר כנגדו שתהיה עזר גם בהנהגת הבית עד שתעמוד תמיד כנגדו שמשניהם יבנה בית נאמן:
    That’s how G-d made man. A man needs a woman throughout his life. I’m grateful to G-d. I thank G-d. I appreciate my wife, always.

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  5. actually it is not mine - I was quoting the Abarbanel

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  6. הלכות יסודי התורה פ"ד הל' ח: נפש כל בשר, היא צורתו שנתן לו האל. והדעת היתרה המצויה בנפשו של אדם, היא צורת האדם השלם בדעתו; ועל צורה זו נאמר בתורה "נעשה אדם בצלמנו כדמותנו" (בראשית א,כו), כלומר שתהיה לו צורה היודעת ומשגת הדעות שאין להם גולם, עד שיידמה להן.
    According to the Rambam z"l, the "image of God" refers to the ability to know or attain "knowledge" of reality that lies beyond what is perceivable by the physical senses. It is therefore the ability to know God and to attain olam haba.

    So the implication of saying women are not made in the image of God, would imply that they do not have a helek in olam haba and are no better than animals, with all that that implies.

    מורה נבוכים ח"ב פ"ל: הבן זה היאך בא הביאור שהם שנים מבחינה מסוימת, והם אחד, כמו שאמר עצם מעצמי ובשר מבשרי, והוסיף חיזוק לכך באומרו כי השמות אחידים על שניהם יחד, אשה כי מאיש לוקחה זאת, וחזק איחודם ואמר ודבק באשתו והיו לבשר אחד.

    But the Rambam is insistent that the name "Adam" applies to both male and female. So we can conclude form this that since the "image of God" attribute is the essence of the species and hence name "Adam", both male and female are made in the image of God.

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  7. מדרש אגדה (בובר) בראשית פרשת תולדות פרק כה סימן כב
    ותאמר אם כן למה זה אנכי. אמרה רבקה אילו הייתי יודעת צער העיבור לא הייתי מתפללת על העיבור. ד"א למה זה אנכי. לפי שהיו עתידין לצאת י"ב שבטים מן יצחק, אמרה רבקה יהיה לי צער גדול למה אני מבקשת שיצא ממני י"ב שבטים כמנין זה: ותלך לדרוש את ה'. לבית מדרשו של שם:

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  8. what does this have to do with women being in the image of G-d?

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  9. To quote your friend, Hillary: "What difference does all this make, at this point?"

    B'Kitzur, forget about Rambams, Abarbanels and Ralbags. The Torah itself writes thus:
    שופך דם האדם באדם דמו ישפך, כי בצלם אלהים עשה את האדם.

    Women seem to be included in this classification with no dissenting voices.

    Is there nothing else to write about?

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  10. here is an article that quotes the sources http://www.etzion.org.il/he/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8-12-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%90%D7%94

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  11. Sorry, but this sounds like a bit of a silly question. Obviously even women have a צלם אלקים. One proof would be from the Possuk in Parshas Noach: שופך דם האדם באדם דמו ישפך כי בצלם אלקים עשה את האדם and we know that the death penalty applies also to one who kills a woman (see Rashi Shemos 21:12), so it must be that she has this צלם also. [See also the encyclopedia Beis Aharon (Maggid, Vol. 1 pages רנד-רס) who shows that the general rule is that אדם includes women, although there are exceptions. But here we know for sure that a woman is called אדם, as it says explicitly ויקרא את שמם אדם, so the Possuk of כי בצלם אלקים עשה את האדם obviously also refers to women as well.]

    Besides which, we know that even a Nochri has a צלם אלקים, as the Tosafos Yom Tov infers from the Mishna in Pirkei Avos חביב אדם שנברא בצלם (and this is in accord with Tos. in Bava Kamma who state that האדם includes even non-Jews), and רואה אני שהדברים קל וחומר. (I know that you will probably disagree.)

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  12. I appreciate your comments - don't need to be defensive about it. I raised the topic because there is an old debate about this in both Jewish and Christian sources.

    First of all read the Abarbanel to Bereishis (1:27). I assume the Abarbanel was fully aware of the sources you mentioned.

    Then you might want to look at Bereishis Rabbah (24:6):Bereishis Rabbah(24:6):[[ 6. THIS IS THE BOOK OF THE DESCENDANTS OF ADAM. These were descendants, while the earlier ones1 were not descendants. What then were they? Divinities! [The answer is as] Abba Cohen Bardela was asked: [Why does Scripture enumerate] Adam, Seth, and Enosh, and then become silent? To which he answered: Hitherto they were created in the likeness and image [of God], but from then onwards Centaurs were created. Four things changed in the days of Enosh: The mountains became [barren] rocks, the dead began to feel [the worms], men's faces became ape-like, and they became vulnerable (hullin) to demons. Said R. Isaac: They were themselves responsible for becoming vulnerable to demons, [for they argued]: What is the difference whether one worships an image or worships man? Hence, Then man became degraded to call upon the name of the Lord (Gen. IV, 26).2

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  13. “She was only made to allow procreation and provide support (ezer kenego) for Adam.”
    This week’s parsha has much on male-female relationships, Isaac to Rebekah and Rebekah to Jacob. Twice the Torah talks of עזר כנגדו:
    “The Lord God said, “It is not good for man to be alone; I will make a fitting helper עזר כנגדו for him.” And the Lord God formed out of the earth all the wild beasts and all the birds of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that would be its name. And the man gave names to all the cattle and to the birds of the sky and to all the wild beasts; but for Adam no fitting helper עזר כנגדו was found.” (Genesis 2:18-20).
    I’m giving a positive spin to עזר כנגדו. Rebekah was indeed עזר כנגדו to Isaac.

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  14. Does the death penalty conver one who kills a niche?

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  15. Wasn't the "man" God created the original man, which was composed of man and woman? Wouldn't that mean that neither the current man or woman "was created in the image of God," but that both man and woman [as they currently exist] were created from that original "man"?

    Wouldn't it be reasonable to consider them both in or not-in the image of God?

    Gershon

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  16. Wasn't the "man" God created the original man, which was composed of man and woman? Wouldn't that mean that neither the current man or woman "was created in the image of God," but that both man and woman [as they currently exist] were created from that original "man"?

    Wouldn't it be reasonable to consider them both in or not-in the image of God?

    Gershon

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  17. While I find it refreshing to see somebody approach this topic from a non-apologetic angle, I must note that it is dangerous to try and tackle the verses on such a delicate matter by oneself. Many have come up with apologetics that way.

    The Arbarbanel says what he says. I wouldn't post it on the web but now that it's there I wonder if we can say that his meaning is different than what we are used to post-Slabadka, where the idea of b'zelem Elokim has been emphasized considerably and is used as a reference to being human. Maybe the Arbarbanel didn't mean it that way.

    Nevertheless, many other commentators see the creation verses as indicating bzelem elokim of men and women. Particularly 20th century commentators see in it an equality in spiritual worth of men and women.

    "The foremost distinguishing characteristic bestowed upon
    man is his Divine image, his tzelem Elohim, which denotes
    particular qualitative endowments, such as a moral sense, free
    will, and intellect. Man partakes of these attributes within
    human limitations, while God's representation of these qualities
    is absolute. Maimonides embodied man's likeness to God pri-
    marily in terms of his intellect (Guide 1: 1). This Divine gift was
    given to both men and women. "And God created man with His
    image. In the image of God, He created him; male and female
    He created them" (Gen. 1:27).7 In their spiritual natures, they
    were equally worthy."

    R. Joseph Soloveitchik
    (Man of Faith in the Modern World, p. 84).

    "The change from singular to plural, which we have tried to reproduce in our translation of this first mention of man and woman in the story of the creation, already indicates the full equality of status, nay, the inner unity between man and woman in the conception and the destiny of "man formed in the image of God." This term embraces both sexes. Only man and woman together make up the idea of "man", and God created both of them alike without intermediary, and with the same conscious effort of will power."

    R' Samson Raphael Hirsch
    Judaism Eternal II, p. 51
    Posted by Yisrael at 6:37 AM

    See Maharal Tiferes Yisroel 4 and Chidushei Agados Makkos 23b for a view that sits somewhere between the Abarbanel and those just cited.

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  18. I understand this is a blog, but this type of unnecessary questioning reminds me of white supremacists asking naturally if jews are people.

    For those who have youtube, a CNN interview has this question on screen in the 10s of this deplorable interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JSTEE9MmXs

    Egyptians questioned the humanity of jews calling them a "swarm", arabs say jews descend from monkeys, some people believe jews came from the moon... why? Because distancing ourselves from the "other" justifies the bad treatment we give to them.

    Are women humans? Are jews people?

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  19. Na'asseh odom betsalmenu, see Rashi - in our mold as to our form. Vayivro Elokim es ho'odom betzalmo - Rashi: bidfus heasui lo... kematbea that is minted by stamping with a press. According to the Midrash Agadah, odom had two faces that haShem divided later into two. Since the original two had Tzelem Elokim, that did not change by the division. According to that haShem removed a rib or a tail bone, it states etzem meatzomay ubossor mibsori and thus formed the isha. Whether the bossor was from the duplicate face or newly formed, it was still formed as the original mint or defuss in which haShem creates humanity. Even the Bnei Noach had the same form, why should an Isha be any less.
    Shofech dam ho'odom bo'odom domo yishofech ki betselem Elokim osoh es ho'odom, That goes equally for both, male female.

    Ki killelat Elokim toluy, vekol haniskolin nitlin, same goes for female. See Rashi: ... shehodom asui bimus dyokno.

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  20. you are claiming that the female was image of G-d, Couldn't find Rashi saying it. As I said, see the Abarbanel

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  21. nobody says that women are not people. The question is the image of G-d.
    It is even claimed that no one today has the image of G-d

    The problem though is that this is not a new question - it is just that people today are ignorant of what is question and what has been discussed in the past.

    The issue is what is the image of G-d, Is it physical appearance or a spiritual level or is the ability for high level abstract thinking. Are man and women equal?
    Are you claiming that I need to be more politically correct? Or are you claiming that anything which might be misused we can't talk about?
    I assume you are aware that there are section of the Torah which are not politically correct.

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  22. yes modern apologetics are wonderful but the truth is even more wonderful. By simply declaring equality there is no way of coming to understand gender differences properly.

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  23. could be and there are in fact questions of whether we have the image of G-d or less of it

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  24. but we are talking about image of G-d - not עזר כנגדו

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  25. There no reason for this Torah discussion to be off bounds.

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  26. Are you accusing Rabbis Hirsch and Soloveitchik of apologetics?

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  27. In the context of that Possuk, yes, since the Possuk is referring to a case where the killer is also a Nochri.

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  28. There are certainly commentaries that go both ways on this topic. While there is no doubt which our Modern Sensibilities prefer, I would be careful about dismissing any approach as "Modern Day Apologetic." One could equally argue that the Abarbanel (or others) were influenced by their sensibilities and those of their society. This is especially true that the simpler reading here is that they are equally B'Tzelem. יִּקְרָ֤א אֶת־שְׁמָם֙ אָדָ֔ם בְּי֖וֹם הִבָּֽרְאָֽם
    Alter of Slabodka seems to say that Isha is even HIGHER as she wasn't created from Adama, and Medrash says HKB"H gave greater thought (so to speak) in how she was created.

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  29. No. I am saying that what he writes is Tzaruch Iyun to me (although I understand where is coming from). The same way "Tzaruch Iyun" is commonly said when learning the words of the Meforshim (including those far more prominent than Abarbanel) that one doesn't understand and seems wrong.

    Are you saying Rav Hirsch and Rabbi Soloveitchik were wrong?

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  30. Thank you for the Abarbanel . I would be interested to know if there is any דיחוי to my proof, though.

    Regarding the fundamental concept that the Abarabanel is saying, that the תכלית הבריאה is man, and woman is created in a secondary position to help the man - you might like to see a similar (identical?) idea in the Maharal חידושי אגדות שבת דף ל ד"ה שמצאו נשותיהן בטהרה (printed on page יב ע"ב).

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  31. I wrote a reply here, and yet again it has disappeared. I hope that it reappears.

    Regarding the Abarbanel - from the Gemara Eiruvin 18a it is clear that Chazal did not agree with the Abarbanel:

    דר' אבהו רמי כתיב זכר ונקבה בראם וכתיב {בראשית א-כז} (כי) בצלם אלהים ברא אותו

    It was obvious to them that the woman was also created בצלם אלקים, and they therefore asked why the Possuk uses a לשון יחיד (which was the Abarbanel's ראיה that she was not נבראה בצלם אלקים). So we see that Chazal argued with the Abarbanel. As for how the Abarbanel argued with Chazal - he seems to be following his general Shita that in non-Halachic matters one can argue with Chazal. But we are definitely free to reject his position and adopt Chazal's position, that a woman does indeed have a צלם אלקים.

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  32. Why do you think it's dangerous and why would you prefer it not be posted on the web?

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  33. Is apologetics problematic?

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  34. Why should we filter the Torah or Torah discussions based on "Modern Sensibilities"? Indeed, why care at all about modern sensibilities?

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  35. And if the nochri was a victim of a yehudi?

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  36. It isn't compatible with scholarship

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  37. Where do you see a consensus of Chazal on this matter?

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  38. No but they were cherry picking to get to an acceptable answer for their audience

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  39. Vayach es haMitzri. Later hashem told Moshe Rabenu, ki mesu kol hoanoshim hamevakshim es nafshecho. Seems Hashem had no problem with it. In this particular case the Mitzri was a Rodef, but just out of nowhere, it is not allowed. Indeed, ki sikrav el ir lehilochem oleho vekoroso eleho lesholom Devarim 20:10. Not so Amalek.

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  40. Hashem has the animal kingdom in nature fear humans, man, woman, and all across the board, since they fear of Tzelem Elokim. Therefore, Tzelem refers to all humans. Does anyone have problems in finding my mareh mekomot of Rashi. Abarbanel is not in my possession for the moment.

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  41. I assume that every Chazal I see represents a consensus, unless there is evidence in Chazal to the contrary - otherwise we could simply say that everything in the Gemara is subject to dispute by an unknown Tanna/Amora - an obviously ridiculous and untrue position.

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  42. see Shemos 21:14 and Mechilta there (Siman 58 in Malbim's Chaluka)

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  43. This was at least a double. You just need to be a bit more selective which balls you swing at, no pun intended.

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  44. It's not off bound, just incomplete. I read the 'to be continued' and am sure that the discussion will take its real path from the continuation, but... had to talk about this isolated first part of the post, which I dislike.

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  45. I'm not asking por politicaly correct posts, just reacting to an idea that was not fully explained.

    Men and women are different and I'm looking forward to see what will be posted next.

    But for this first part, that's my reaction.

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  46. But since there is a mahloqet on the issue, it is reasonable to go with the view that makes more sense to the individual according to the literal meaning of the text and with reality. And for me personally the "image of God" is ability to engage in higher level abstract thinking (Rambam z"l), which women are also capable of.

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  47. I agree with you Esty. The open Internet is not the place for this. Although, I should note that there are a score of web sites that don't hesitate to denigrate men without any discussion.

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  48. What about Moshe Feinstein, Rabbi Miller, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe - they all portray men and women as being equal. Are they all being apologetic? That's pretty unlikely. Look, if the first man was created male and female, why would you propose that the woman is not b'zelem Elokim?

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  49. You might be assuming that if the answer isn't painful or hurtful it isn't true. That's a common approach in the neo-Litvish world and not one that leads to truth.

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  50. Nonsense!
    I am talking about scholarship as opposed to polemics

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  51. Equal in what sense?
    Men even say a beracha about the inequality!
    Btw what is the basis that women get olam habah?

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  52. I am not discussing what you are comfortable with
    Clearly the Rambam holds that a person is godly to the degree he is intellectual even if it is in philosophical studies!

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  53. Not nonsense. It's very difficult to talk with precision in matters of lofty philosophy and our sensibilities factor into our conclusions. You seem like the kind of guy who gravitates to the painful answer. If something feels fair, it must be wrong.

    Anyway, if Hashem created Adam - male and female - in His image - then the onus is on the person who wants to say that it doesn't apply to the woman. Now maybe, the fact that the name Adam has a masculine connotation - Adam keeps his name after the two are separated - may mean there is some difference in their bezelem elokim, For more on that, see the Maharal in Tiferes Yisroel 4 and Chidushei Agados Makkos 23b, but to say women don't have it at all contradicts the peshot. And it is fair to say that once you are talking about God's image, you are dealing with the infinite and there's no ranking to be done. So I don't think it's apologetics to call men and women equal in their b'zelem elokim. And to question the intellectual integrity of R' Hirsch, Soloveitchik, Feinstein, Miller and the Rebbe takes more than a bit of chutzpah.

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  54. Even so, he couldn't deliver. In court he claimed there is no koach hazroa, and in his prayers, 've'ein onu yechoilim', hiding under his tallis was left berom uvchoser kol. He said to be soon in sha'arei hoatzilus, not even close, couldn't swing it.

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  55. Actually, it seems to me you are trying to be politically incorrect. Call it shock blogging if you will. The solution to political correctness is not political incorrectness.

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  56. Usually on this topic I find myself serving as defender of the men, when I hear the ubiquitous baloney about women being more spiritual. And for anybody who has ever accused me of being a misogynist for doing this, the proof here is that now I feel a need to defend the women. According to my reading of sources and my instincts about Judaism, we should not be making a contest between the sexes.

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  57. For Hirsch and Soloveitchik equality in bzelem elokim. For R' Feinstein, equality in holiness. For R' Miller, equality in souls. As for the bracha, the Taz seems to say that all is not completely equal but he also says the wording shows the high worth of the woman. So you have bzelem elokim right there even if we are not completely equal.

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  58. Regarding Abarbenel and the Ralbag (and even the Rambam) one could argue that due to their reliance on philosophy and independent thinking they do not represent normative Torah outlook unless their opinion is seen as having been accepted by authorities after them. If we are looking for what the Torah actually says, they are the wrong address.

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  59. למה לי קרא סברא ישרה ופשוטה היא!!!

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  60. Is olam habah only stated by men?

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  61. I see it in the Abarbanel. Let me say though that all of the mekubalim see the nekaiva as a partzuf of Elokus (אמא, נוק', רחל, לאה). So clearly their understanding is that the woman is betzelem Elokim.

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  62. do you have any sources that actually say that?

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  63. sorry - but that is not acceptable. To say the rishonim were wrong when they are our conduit to understand Chazal is very problematic.

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  64. sorry - without clearly defining what tzelem elokim means - the fact that women are highly regarded isn't significant. You are assuming that the two are the same - haven't seen any proof for that.

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  65. it is not a contest - the question is how does the Torah understand men and woman.
    Is the woman a support system which man needs in order to serve G-d and nothing more or is her worth independent.?

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  66. nope. I just have been involved in issues for many years where it has become clear when investigated that the official line is problematic.

    Child abuse - "it is prohibited to go to the police because it is mesira." It is prohibited to talk about it because it is lashon harah"

    Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter . It is wrong to criticize gedolim - even if they are promoting adultery. Only a gadol can criticize a gadol.

    Sanhedria Murchevet satantic abuse ring. It is wrong to criticize Rav Berkowitz because he is so superior to you in every way and he surely has checked out everything.

    Tropper scandal - it is a chilul hashem to talk about his misdeeds and his halachic understanding. He has the support of gedolim and even if he is wrong you have no right to publicize it.

    You have it wrong - I am interested in what the truth is. If you are insisting that the truth is politically incorrect - then I would agree that I want to be politically incorrect.

    It is a sad commentary that wanting to find the truth about what the Torah says and what G-d's wishes for us should be considered "shock blogging".

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  67. You are welcome to ask the question, but if I come back with the answer of the posek hador (MF), the philosopher hador (JBS), the Rebbe hador, and the emes hador (R' Miller - who never uttered an apologetic payrush in his life) all of whom portray the sexes as being equal - and you are after the truth, well then...

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  68. so starting with Chazal show me that women have always been viewed as having tzelem elokim. Next show me that they have always been viewed as equal in spiritual level to men. Don't see how ignoring Chazal and Rishonim is something which enhances your understanding. Nor do I consider see what Chazal and the Rishonim said reflect chutzpah

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  69. Where does Chazal indicate that women are not bzelem elokim? As for spiritual level, many Medieval commentaries don't put them on an equal level. But that's different from saying they are not bzelem elokim. The Maharal in particular says many times that their level is not as high but he is also quite clear that women are spiritual and holy, which is a bzelem elokim.

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  70. Why should your instincts be a factor?

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  71. Is the Abarbanel and Ralbag under discussion quoted on this thread? I don't see it.

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  72. It is not what I feel most comfortable with but the shitah (from a Rishon) that I find most easy to understand. And this is why:

    According to the Rambam z"l, the "image of God" is the ability to know and understand reality beyond what is perceivable to the senses - it is an intellectual attribute. Abarbanel z"l also seems to hold that it is an intellectual attribute. The difference is that the Rambam holds that it applies to both genders, based on the LITERAL reading of the pasuk, while Abarbanel holds that it applies only to males, based on a NON-LITERAL reading.

    According to the Rambam, prophecy is only associated with one who has perfected this intellectual attribute to a very high degree (with BOTH intellectual studies and moral/midot refinement being pre-requisites). So according to the Rambam, it makes sense how we can have women prophets, such as Devorah, since they have this intellectual attribute (the image of G-d) which they can perfect.

    According to Abarbanel it is more difficult. Since it seems he holds that they are deficient in this intellectual attribute. This means that a male non-prophet could be more knowledgeable about God and reality than a female prophet?!

    Now, there are probably ways to resolve this. But the simpler approach that is also closer the literal meaning of the pasuk is that of the Rambam (an earlier Rishon)!

    This does not mean men and women are equal but they do share this "image of G-d" attribute. They clearly differ since the female was created from the male and she was created for his "benefit". Does this mean the male is superior? Is the elected leader (like Trump) greater than those who put him in power and support him? I think that is the question.

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  73. so we come down to authority arguments versus text. That is not scholarship even though it is frum.

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  74. See Rashi Breishis 1:26 - Betzalmenu is in the physical sense as FORM, kidmuseinu in the spiritual sense lehovin ulehaskil as to know good from bad once they ate from the Eitz hada'as. Since H' instructed them not to eat, and violated that tzivui, seems that the yetzer hora was already in the works while also having bechira. After they ate, their eyes opened up enabling them to distinguish and KNOW good from bad, thereby bringing misa and more to humanity.

    There seems to be two levels before judgment can happen. First level is when you instruct what not to do, thereby having bechira and yetzer hora talking you into it. The second level kicks in when you get punished for the violation, it then comes in full circle acKNOWLEDGEing you that there are consequences for violation. Thus you know to differentiate between good and bad, introducing MISA and the rest for committing sins from hence on. The punishment serves for purposes 1) as a deterrent for the sinner and 2) as a reminder for the onlooker.
    lema'am yishmeun veyerou - velo yezidun od.

    Therefore, both Genders got their lesson and punished for it, since both have TZELEM Elokim.

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  75. The Abarbanel is not a Rishon, nor is he a conduit to understanding Chazal, as we see from the fact that he regularly argues with them!

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  76. is the Rambam saying the "potential" to understand or the actual ability to understand?
    He indicates in Moreh Nevuchim that if you don't actually have the intellectual ability you are not a full human being while if you have it - even without Torah - then you can be perfected and be a prophet.

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  77. Please provide sources that the Abarbanel's view on anything is considered "authoritative" by anyone, more than the many great Gedolim cited on this blog who disagree with him.

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  78. You don't have access to the Abarbanel?

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  79. Sources that say what? This is the most basic kabbala definitions.

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  80. As I noted I am interested in understanding. If you want authority I have no question that the question will be answered by contemporary gedolim that of course with have the tzelem elokim and of course they are at least equal if not superior. The Malbim seems to have taken him seriously on many issues

    Perhaps you want to define what you mean by authoritative. Perhaps you are using it in the sense of "shut your mouth"?

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  81. Abarbanel lived in the 15th century.

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  82. sorry don't know kabbala. Just tell me where it says tzelem elokim?

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  83. The Rambam uses terms like "koach" for potential to understand and "poal" for having developed that potential to achieve actual understanding. When you say ability to understand, I am assuming you mean understanding "be-poal".

    Anyone who lacks the "koach" to understand is not considered fully human, anyone who has brought that "koah" to "poal" is an "actual" human-being. One who has the koach but has brought this to poal is a "potential" human being. That is how I understand it, at present.

    I think the Rambam holds that a non-Jew can achieve prophecy so long as he has the "koach" to understand to begin with and then develops this and brings this to "poal". But it still will depend on the will of Hashem, whether or not to grant this perfected human-being prophecy or not. And , yes, he can do this without the Torah, just like the Avot, Shem and Ever, who were prophets before matan Torah. But it would be difficult and he may not achieve as a high a level as possible with the Torah.

    However, a Jew who is kofer on the Torah cannot be a prophet. Because the fact that he is kofer reveals his imperfect understanding. Because according to the Rambam in the moreh, (I am paraphrasing), the Torah makes this task of self-perfection a lot easier.

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  84. Where did you post the maare makom?

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  85. The Ralbag was not accepted in his time by those who took the time to read his Milchamos Elokim and the Abarbenel is known for giving his own opinions not necessarily based on Chazal as Chaim notes. To know what women's status is according to Chazal one must examine the Rishonim who followed Chazal.

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  86. Everywhere, but it will not necessarily say the following sentance 'Women are created betzelem Elokim', but the partzufim are the tzelem Elokim, as that's the basis of everything, and women are in the partzufim. It's the aleph bais. I can't help you if you don't speak the language, but you can ask anyone who does. This is basic. You are a good researcher, so why don't you find out about what I'm saying, rather than take my word for it.

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  87. I am surprised to see averyone pontificating about this question, and ignoring the clear information that I mentioned earlier. I repeat.

    The mekubalim, who should obviously be the primary source to look to for information about tzelem Elokim, describe the entire komah shelaima of Atzilus. Atzilus, by the way, is Elokus mamash. I can't say much in public, because these things tend to be taken out of context, but let me just this, which addresses our issue at hand, that it includes the woman as part of the picture of Elokus. That answers the question. I am left with a kashia on the Abarbanel, but the information I present is clear.

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  88. There are halachic ramifications to this discussion:

    1 There is a prohibition of הלנת המת. Chazal explain because man was created בדמות דיוקנו. Is it permissible to leave a woman's cadaver overnight? (As an aside, see Abarbanel to דברים כא, הספק הג' who rejects this reason, explicit in Chazal, as a טעם חלוש מאד!)

    2 There is a mitzva of כפיית המטה for an avel (not practiced nowadays by most communities). The reason for this is stated in the gemara מועד קטן טו ב: דמות דיוקני נתתי בהן ובעונותיהם הפכתיה כפו מיטתכם עליה. If women were not created with tzelem Elokim, there would be no mitzva of כפיית המטה when sitting shiva for a woman.

    3 The gemara says in שבת נ ב: רוחץ אדם פניו ידיו ורגליו בכל יום לכבוד קונו. This is brought להלכה in משנה ברורה סימן ד סק"ב. Rashi ad loc explains לכבוד קונהו דכתיב כי בצלם אלקים עשה וגו' (There is another explanation there as well, but this explanation is supported by ויקרא רבה לג:ג where it's reported that Hillel would say that bathing is a mitzva because it is an act of caring for the צלם ודמות .) Accordingly, are woman exempt from this halacha?

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  89. The_Original_Bored_LawyerDecember 1, 2016 at 6:28 PM

    Sorry, I was taught that the Abarbanel is not necessarily Masoras Yisrael, because he was not a baki in Chazal. He may have intersting insights into the Chumash, but he is not necessarily normative the way the Rambam, Ramban, Rashi and Tosafos are.

    The notion that women lack Tselem Elokim is silly -- were that the case, it would not be murder (or shefichas damim for a Ben Noach) to kill them, which is contrary to basic halakha.

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  90. Sorry don't understand a feminine factor to mean a woman!

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  91. Your last paragraph has a slight "unhinged" feel to it. As for your first paragraph, of course we all want to understand - but to understand what?

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  92. It describes there being not a feminine factor but an entire woman. I'm not writing this for you, Rabbi Eidenson, because I had no hava amina that you'd be willing to say that you learned something new from me, but I'm writing this for whoever whats to know the truth.

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  93. So far Daas Torah has based an opinion of women's status on these two authorities whom I do not regard as bearers of the normative Messorah. I assume you are more familiar with what the others say than I am.

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  94. Please look at the Katzin who seems to agree with the Abarbanel

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  95. Did you see the Netziv?

    The meaning of tzelem elokim is not clear
    I will post some of the sources next week

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  96. Wow!!! Are you really questioning whether woman get Olam Haba? If you are I think that it deserves its own blog post

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  97. Politically IncorrectDecember 2, 2016 at 2:12 AM

    Sholom Alaichem everybody, I think it definitely is! :-D

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  98. Politically IncorrectDecember 2, 2016 at 2:28 AM

    You seem to interject that all above personalities are universally accepted. ....

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  99. Politically IncorrectDecember 2, 2016 at 2:35 AM

    Ah, what i was alluding to in a previous comment, - as the possuk in Breishis introduces her to the Torah "aizer kenegdo" - That seems to be the sublime summation of her being!

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  100. Politically IncorrectDecember 2, 2016 at 2:48 AM

    Where talking about the concept of "tzelem Elokim" , not the possibility of being associated with G-dliness..

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  101. Politically IncorrectDecember 2, 2016 at 2:52 AM

    Sorry in geometry we learn that until you prove that x equals y, we must presume the contrary. Likewise, in Torah, we do not bunch similar sounding concepts together without adequate proof. ....

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  102. Politically IncorrectDecember 2, 2016 at 3:16 AM

    I heard from Sholom Kamentsky that he argued to his grandfather, Reb Yankev, that he said that "who said that the Abarbenel had Da'as Torah!

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  103. yes there are sources e.g., Berachos 17a which indicate that women only get Olam HaBah based on being a support system for the husbands and children learning Torah

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  104. You're making an assumption that we are supposed to deal with words from the Hebrew language like some foreign unknown language, and not understand what's being said but rather to see where else those exact hieroglyphics are found in order to know whether they are congruous. This is not the way I have been taught to study Torah.

    The words tzelem Elokim have a meaning. They mean that Hashem has a particular tzelem. Now obviously אינו גוף, so The Rambam explains that bodily description used for Hashem are used metaphorically in a way where we understand something about Hashem's hanhaga through the words used to describe him. If you ever read פתח אליהו which is printed in many siddurim before davening, you will see this concept there too. חסד דרוע ימין etc. And it says clearly that it isn't a description of Hashem himself and even not of his middos because he is above all of that, but rather a description of his hanhaga to the extent that we receive it on tis world. לאשתמודע איך אתנהג עלמא...אבל לאו דאית לי'... ולא מכל אלין מדות כלל. So the mareh of the Tzelem Elokim is the way Hashem shows his hanhaga to the neviim as it says במראה אליו אתודע. This concept and it's explanation is explained in many seforim. I'm not here to prove myself, but for those who want to learn, this is useful information for you to bring before your rebbee and ask him about it in order for you to learn chochma. So when it says that Hashem created man in his tzelem, it means that the physical body, in all it's parts and attributes, represents Hashems hanhaga of this world in it's entirety. Also you must understand that the body matches the neshama. A human neshama doesn't fit into an animal body. Because things are created to have the same attributes on all of the levels, from body to the deepest depths of neshama. So the idea that a person is in Hashems image means that he has the ability להשכיל.

    Now in kabala it is taught about Hashem's hanhaga. It is described there in the way I just explained, meaning by describing the actions and interactions of the partzufim.(meaning human forms) The partzufim are described as having the complete forms of people, because that is Hashem's image, meaning the image of his hanhaga. There are male and female partzufim. That is as much as I can present in such a forum. Do yourself a favor, if you want to know. and ask someone who knows this chochma well. Don't just rely on information you'll see here in a discussion, because what can be given over in this forum is very limited. But I'm offering this as a פתח for those who wish to seek out the chochma.

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  105. Let me add to my previous posts here, that we don't see from the Netziv that a woman isn't created betzelem Elokim. (The Abarbanel remains shver) Just as we won't say that 999 out of 1000 men don't have a tzelem Elokim. It means that most men don't behave according to their yzelem Elokim, so the kedusha of the tzelem Elokim isn't apparent in them. With women it is even more so that no women fulfill it. This is understood actually from the pasuk that The Netziv refers to. אשה בכל אלה לא מצאתי. That means that Shlomo Hamelech is saying that he hasn't found even a single woman who is exemplary in this sense. But her image is still betzelem Elokim just as that of ALL men.

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  106. I don't know if the Abarbanel had Daas Torah, but Daas Torah certainly has the Abarbanel!

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  107. The sources that seem to explain as physical appearance apply to both men and women.
    See also Bava Basra 58a for a physical reference to Demus Deyukno. .
    But obviously Rambam was well aware of all these sources.
    As was Nefesh haChaim who understands it as free will and considers it ridiculous to understand a literal physical similarity.
    They likely understand the physical as representing underlying ways that we are spiritually "similar" to G-d (Right/Left Chesed/Din etc. etc.)

    The Gemara also says G-d wears Tallis and Teffilin -- Rambam says only a fool understands it literally.

    Your Olam Haba point from Berachos has nothing to do with Men vs. Women. It is Torah vs. No Torah. The Gemara makes a blanket statement that they get Olam Haba, even greater then men. The only question is how/why this is since they seemingly lack the merit of Torah. So the Gemara explains how they get that merit. But as the sources indicate, a man who does not study Torah doesn't get Olam Haba. So no fundamental difference between men and women. This is consistent with all the sources you brought.

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  108. The first Mishna in Perek Cheilek. Unless you think women are excluded from "Kol Yisrael"

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  109. Show me where the Alter says that.

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  110. Katzin? Could you please apprise who this is.

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  111. sorry it was supposed to be Netziv - auto spell correct took over

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  112. the Netziv I added answers your question.

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  113. yes the sources dealing with phsyical appearance appear to apply to both men and women and Jews and non-Jews. Clearly the Rambam and others understand image of G-d as an intellectual characteristic.

    strongly disagree with your rejection of the relevance of Olam Habah
    From the issue of Olam Habah it would seem that the idea of image of G-d as well as the spriituality for Olam Habah need to be fulfilled by proper development through Torah and mitzvos and that only the potential is given.

    Understood this way, Men have the image of G-d and get Olam Habah if they are talmidei chachomim while women are not inherently and independently in the image of G-d or do they get Olam Habah . Thus there only choice is for spirituality is that they subordinate their existence to the man who is the true image of G-d. This is what the Abarbanel and Netziv both seem to indicate. There are those who themselves are spiritual beings and there are those who by association and assistance of the focus of creation (man) get that status.

    This distinction seems to fit all the sources

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  114. The commentaries indicate that the meaning of tzelem elokim is not clear or obvious. Therefore it is necessary to examine the word carefully.

    Am not convinced by your explanation from Kabbala - but will check with people I consider expert and see if they agree with you

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  115. Yes, the Netziv and Abarbanel may be saying as you write regarding Tzelem Elokim.
    BUT your reading of the Gemara in Berachos and commentaries is FAR from the simple reading.
    Realizing the irony. You are taking an explicit Gemara that says Women have MORE Olam Haba and turning it to read that they have less or none.
    And for an EXPLICIT Gemara that Women have Olam Haba even without the Limmud HaTorah angle -- see Gittin 57b.
    Once you know Gittin 57, one realizes that the question in Berachos 17 likely means how do they merit that GREATER portion of Olam Haba.

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  116. Gittin 57b seems to disprove your Olam Haba theory.
    I'm sure I could think of a way to get out of it and twist it's meaning -- but there is no doubt that the way Gittin 57b has generally been understood disproves your point.

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  117. In addition to Gittin 57b, this discussion really is lacking without mention of the Mishna "Kol Yisroel Yesh lahem (or lahen in Yerushalmi)."
    In addition, the fact that women can get Nevuah needs discussion. Very hard to think that one without Tzelem Elokim could get Nevuah.
    Many more sources, but the discussion as is seems very narrow, lacking, and forced. If you are trying to struggle or deal with the sources (which I totally acknowledge exist, and others could be brought to added to your list) that seem to limit Tzelem Elokim -- that is a worthy endeavor. But to make them as the standard approach and expand their intent -- that seems pretty problematic

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  118. what is your proof from Gittin 57b?

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  119. Why do you think this isn't "the standard approach"?

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  120. He did not say women have less or no Olam Habah; all he said that in order for women to get their Olam Habah, they must serve man (in his quest for Torah) to achieve that.

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  121. Thanks for adding the source and maare makom to the post.

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  122. which means that they don't get Olam Habah on their own but only through man and their devotion to him. Thus if there is no man there is no Olam HaBah. In contrast to a man who gets Olam Habah directly because of his study of Torah and doing mitzvos. That is the distinction the Netziv makes between someone who is capable of being a man and thus doesn't need the sign saying - "this is a man" vs a woman or am haaretz who is called man because they belong to the club of man but are not deserving of Olam Habah because of who they are.

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  123. Because of everything I wrote already -- check the sources (as well as those others brought -- specifically regarding the HALACHOS that are learned from the idea of Tzelem Elokim that apply to both men and women). It seems to me to be the standard and simpler understanding (not modern). Feel free to disagree, like I said, there are opposing sources. But yes, I feel confident that Abarbanel, etc. isn't standard approach.

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  124. How does an am haaretz get Olam Habah?

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  125. See Ohr HaTzafun Volume 1 page 37.

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  126. גיטין נ"ז: במתניתא תנא: מעשה בד' מאות ילדים וילדות שנשבו לקלון, הרגישו בעצמן למה הן מתבקשים, אמרו: אם אנו טובעין בים אנו באין לחיי העולם הבא? דרש להן הגדול שבהן: אמר ה' מבשן אשיב אשיב ממצולות ים, מבשן אשיב - מבין שיני אריה אשיב, ממצולות ים - אלו שטובעין בים; כיון ששמעו ילדות כך, קפצו כולן ונפלו לתוך הים.
    This Gemara has been understood in various ways -- Do they get Olam Haba or do they lose it because of Suicide, Do they get Olam Haba despite no Kevura, Do they get an extra level Olam Haba for their extra Mesiras Nefesh, etc. But it is clear that the Gemara assumes, and affirms, that girls get Olam Haba -- without it having any specific relationship to their support for men.

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  127. זוהר פרשת שלח -- זכאה חולקהון דצדיקייא גוברין ונוקבי דאזלי בארח מישר בהאי עלמא, וזכאן לכלהו ענוגין דההוא עלמא,

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  128. "Women's only choice is for true spirituality is that they subordinate their existence to the talmid chachom who is the true image of G-d." it means never married women should just jump off the bridge or abandon frumkeit all together? No olam haba for them, right? So what's the point for them of doing mitzvos?

    Although Abravanel was a great 16th century scholar, this discussion would just be complete with views from other rabbis who have the same "status" as him. I am familiar with his story but not with his teachings, therefore I ask myself if his thoughts about this topic are influenced by the women of his era. Torah is alive and expands our understanding overtime.

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  129. If women are not able to fulfill their own spiritual role, how do you tackle the problem of "the embezzled heaven", i.e. a woman who devotes herself to man, thinking he is a talmid chacham, but he really is a hypocrite and does not learn?

    Will she get reward all the same for her efforts, or will she just fall flat because her husband successfully cheated her?

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  130. Congratulations. You found a discussion theme that is spot on for your traget audience. The number of comments and clicks shows you are right.

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  131. This post shows how disturbed DT is. Seriously, he is a nutty man, one of those overly aggressive yeshiva types. This is not a conversation for the internet.

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  132. Can an am haaretz get Olam Habah?

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  133. There are different levels of Olam Habah and that the am haaretz can obtain the minimal. In fact that is how Berachos 17a is understood by some - How can women obtain the highest level that is reserved for gedolei Torah

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  134. interesting question. Similar to the Holocaust survivor who was moser nefesh to put on Tefilin everyday and then after the war found out that the tefillin were never kosher because some rasha sold him posul tefilin.

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  135. I would think that that would generally be true but there are times when some of the "rationalist" rishonim disagree with certain statements of Chazal, and to avoid outright disagreement with Chazal they say that the statement of Chazal in question represents a minority view of Chazal, even when there is no contrary position of Chazal recorded.

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  136. The important issue you are raising is reinforced by the fact that apparently the idea that Olam Habah was dependent on intellectual study Torah - is clearly in the Rishonim but it is not clear in Chazal. It is not just the Abarbanel who views the image of G-d as intellectual - but Rambam, Ibn Ezra, Ralbag and others. This was also reflected in the philosophy of Aristotle - which was accepted in the Middle Ages. I hope to add the views of other Rishonim in the near future
    To restate your question - do women only have a chance for this Olam Habah by studying Torah and doing mitzvos that they are exempt?

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  137. An example is yesurim shel Ahava which Rambam rejects as a minority non-Jewish view thought there is no indication in Chazal for that understanding.

    Rambam(Moreh Nevuchim 3:17): The majority of our Sages agree that there is no death or suffering without sin… A person is rewarded according to all the good deeds that he has done even if he wasn’t commanded by the prophet to do them. He is also punished for all the bad things he did, even if he wasn’t forbidden by the prophet. This is true however for those things that his intellect would indicate that they were good or bad.…In the words of our Sages there is something additional which is not found written in the Torah. Some of them talk about yesurim shel ahava which is suffering which occurs even without sin - in order to increase reward. This is also a concept found amongst some Muslims. However there is no verse in the Torah which expresses this idea.

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  138. you are right. But that presents a major problem for the Gra and others who explicitly say that Torah knowledge is critical for Olam HaBah.

    The simple reconciliation is to say that a kodesh gets Olam HaBah indepdently of his deeds or Torah learning - but that someone who is not a martyr needs to be a Torah scholar.

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  139. This is Rabbi Soloveitchik לשיטתו:

    לפני כעשרים וחמש שנים לאחר שנפטר הר"ר שמואל בלקין ז"ל והיו צריכים לבחור נשיא חדש לישיבה אוניברסיטה החליט רבנו שאחד מהמועמדים לא היה ראוי לאותה אצטלא בגלל דיעותיו הבלתי מסורתיות רבנו כינס את כל הרמי"ם ביחד וערך וניסח מכתב לועד הנאמנים של הישיבה שהוא מתנגד מאוד להתמנותו של פלוני וחתם את שמו למטה ומסר את המכתב לשאר הרמי"ם שאף הם יחתמו אחד מהרמי"ם פתח ושאל לרבנו ומה כל הרעש הזה מה פשעו ומה חטאתו של אותו פלוני ענה רבנו ואמר שיהודי המדפיס במאמר בעתון שלפי דעתו שני חלקי ספר ישעיה נכתבו על ידי שני בני אדם נפרדים אפיקורס הוא ואי אפשר למנותו כנשיא של הישיבה והמשיך הלה לטעון ואמר דהלא אף באברבנאל גם כן מצינו לפעמים דברים זרים אשר הם נגד מסורות רז"ל חכמי התלמוד ענה רבנו ואמר שאף את האברבנאל לא היה רוצה לראות כנשיא ישיבה אוניברסיטה ובזה נסתיים הויכוח כל הרמי"ם שהיו נוכחים בשעת מעשה חתמו על מכתבו של רבנו המכתב נמסר לועד הנאמנים ונתבטלה מועמדותו של הלה
    (מפניני הרב עמוד ריז)

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  140. I believe Prof. Menachem Kellner wrote in one of his books that his wife pointed out to him that according to the Ralbag women cannot attain Olam Haba - after all the Ralbag's conception of Olam Haba has to do with intellectual perfection and throughout his commentaries he assigns women a low intellectual status.

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  141. The Akeidas Yitzchak on the argument between Yaakov and Rachel about having children, states that women have two purposes. The second one is the one that relates to childbearing, while the primary purpose is identical to that of men.

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  142. That's one of the examples I was thinking of, but it is a little different. The Rambam follows the statement of Chazal that אין מיתה בלא חטא ואין יסורין בלא עון. The only thing is that this is the opinion of R' Ami about which the Gemara says תיובתא דרבי אמי תיובתא.

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  143. Only by supporting Torah study - the same as a woman

    Kesubos(111b): R. Eleazar said; The illiterate will not be resurrected, for it is said in Scripture, The dead will not live etc.11 So it was also taught: The dead will not live.11 As this might [be assumed to refer] to all, it was specifically stated, The lax12 will not rise,11 [thus indicating] that the text speaks only of such a man as was lax in the study of the words of the Torah.13 Said R. Johanan to him:14 it is no satisfaction to their Master15 that you should speak to them in this manner. That text16 was written of a man who was so lax as17 to worship idols. ‘I’, the other18 replied, ‘make an exposition [to the same effect] from another text. For it is written in Scripture, For thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the dead.19 him who makes use of the ‘light’ of the Torah will the ‘light’ of the Torah revive, but him who makes no use of the light of the Torah20 the light of the Torah will not revive’. Observing, however, that he21 was distressed, he18 said to him, ‘Master, I have found for them22 a remedy in the Pentateuch: But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day;23 now is it possible to ‘cleave’ to the divine presence concerning which it is written in Scripture, For the Lord thy God is a devouring fire?24 But [the meaning is this:] Any man who marries his daughter to a scholar, or carries on a trade on behalf of scholars,25 or benefits scholars from his estate is regarded by Scripture26 as if he had cleaved to the divine presence.27 Similarly you read in Scripture, To love the Lord thy God, [to hearken to His voice,] and to cleave unto Him.28 Is it possible for a human being to ‘cleave’ unto the divine presence? But [what was meant is this:] Any man who marries his daughter to a scholar, or carries on a trade for scholars, or benefits scholars from his estate is regarded by Scripture as if he had cleaved to the divine presence.

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  144. The problem is: if a woman contracts marriage with someone she thinks is or will be a talmid chacham, in the hope of getting bonus points for Olam haba, and it turns out he is posul, she cannot just go and buy a new pair of tefilin. Meanwhile they might have a family, etc.

    Furthermore, it might be problematic per se that someone achieves bonus points through someone else's mitzwoth, especially if there is no possibility of reciprocity or no easy way of dissolving the contract.

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  145. This Abarbanel doesn't belong on the Internet. Try employing some seichel.

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  146. The "problem" with this sort of statement is that people as great as the Rambam said such things. I don't know if that is why others opposed him, but is it fair to say that in their time it was acceptable to modify what Chazal said or believed?

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  147. Don't see that the Rambam thought he was modifying what Chazal said or believed

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  148. Could you give me an example please? (Not of a Rishon disagreeing, but of a Rishon claiming that this is just a שיטה יחידאה among Chazal, but without supporting that claim with evidence.) It seems very strange - how can anybody prove anything anymore? (As you can see, this would also invalidate most proofs that the Gemara brings from a Mishna or Braisa against a particular Amora.)

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  149. It could be that the illiterate who support Torah study get olam haba because 1.They recognize the truth and value of the Torah - evidence that they have the intellectual attribute of the "image of G-d"; 2. They do learn some torah by listening to the Torah scholars, who they evidently respect. 3. They showing chesed, which refines the midot of the giver and enhances his ability to "know" G-d.

    The same applies to an illiterate woman (as most women were until recently), through supporting the Torah study of their husbands and children - they learn some Torah bal peh from husband and sons, they engage in gemilut chassidim towards their family, refining their midot and helping them to know G-d.

    In other words, Olam Haba comes in all cases from "knowing" G-d to a certain extent, each according to his level, which requires as a minimum being made in the image of G-d.

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  150. Chazal say the world will last for 6,000 years. The Rambam in rejecting this says, "besides this is the individual opinion of one rabbi, and in accordance with one particular theory." Yet as the Rashba points out, "ואין אנו רואין בתלמוד חולק עליו".

    If you are willing to accuse other great rabbis of apologetically reading their own views into Torah/Chazal, why not accuse the Rambam of the same?

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  151. Similar shay'lah: someone does proper due diligence, yet turns out certain food he eats regularly was not kosher. The rav haMachshir of course gets his punishment, but what about him / her / his family? (Side question: does he get "timtum haLev", whatever that means?). Generally accepted answer, yes, also.

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  152. Rashi 28:5 yesterday's parsha.

    Greater than abarbanel, Most rishonim. Not litvish.

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  153. try the Rambam's view of astrology

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  154. Out of interest, what is the source of this Rambam?

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  155. Not of a Rishon disagreeing, but of a Rishon claiming that this is just a שיטה יחידאה among Chazal

    I'm not sure that there's necessarily a difference. It is very possible that claiming that something is a minority opinion is just a euphemism for disagreeing.

    That said, I discussed two examples from the Rambam above (one of which R' Eidenson was mechavein to as well). In both those cases he refers to undisputed statements recorded in the Gemara (yissurin shel ahava; 6,000 year world) as being the opinion of only some of the Sages.

    However, as I alluded to in my response to R' Eidenson, the Rambam in both those cases does quote other statement s of Chazal and claim that they refute the statement under discussion. (I.e. while there is no dispute recorded in the Talmud about the specific statement, there are other general statements of Chazal which the Rambam sees as rebutting these statements.) Thus, for example the Rambam quotes the principle (the verse) אין כל חדש תחת השמש as contradicting the idea of the 6,000 years, and he quotes the principle of אין מיתה בלא חטא ואין יסורין בלא עון as demonstrating that all suffering is earned. (However, as I also noted, this principle is itself refuted by the Gemara - תיובתא דרבי אמי תיובתא. Although see the Meiri there for an explanation of why we don't care that the Gemara "refuted" it.)

    Regardless, a better example might be the Ralbag in Parshas Bereishis where he refers to the Gemara in Sanhedrin that God originally prohibited eating meat and then permitted it to Noach, as אמרו זה בדרש קצת רז"ל and does not provide evidence for this. He also says that it is a שקר עצום ראוי שכל בעל דעת יברח ממנו. And then he says that in these matters we are not bound by Chazal and we follow the Rambam's guideline of not looking at who said it, but at what was said. And he adds that the fact that Chazal sometimes disagree with each other proves that we don't have to follow them (apparently because it shows that they can be wrong).

    This would seem to me to further enforce the theory that claiming that it's a דעת יחיד is apologetics. Because if it really was a דעת יחיד, why the need to further justify why we don't have to accept it? Would anyone ever think that the minority שיטה is binding (barring an explicit ruling that we follow the minority in a a given situation)?

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  156. תוספתא סנהדרין פרק יג: ר"א אומר כל רשעי עובדי כוכבים אין להם חלק לעוה"ב שנאמר (תהילים ט) ישובו רשעים לשאולה כל גוים שכחי אלהים ישובו רשעים לשאולה אלו רשעי ישראל כל גוים שכחי אלהים אלו רשעי עובדי כוכבים אמר לו ר' יהושע אילו אמר הכתוב ישובו רשעים לשאולה כל גוים ושתק היה אומר כדבריך אלו רשעי ישראל ורשעי עובדי כוכבים עכשיו שאמר הכתוב שכחי אלהים הא יש צדיקים בעובדי כוכבים שיש להם חלק לעולם הבא

    The Tosefta records a dispute between R. Yehoshua and R. Eliezer, where R Yehoshua says righteous non-Jews have a share in the world to come.
    -The Rambam follows R. Yehoshua and states that non-Jews have a share in the world to come so long as they accept the Truth of Torat Moshe and keep the 7 laws.

    הלכות מלכים ומלחמות פרק ח י"ד: כל המקבל שבע מצוות, ונזהר לעשותן--הרי זה מחסידי אומות העולם, ויש לו חלק לעולם הבא: והוא שיקבל אותן ויעשה אותן, מפני שציווה בהן הקדוש ברוך הוא בתורה, והודיענו על ידי משה רבנו, שבני נוח מקודם נצטוו בהן.

    Surely, women have a share in the world to come so long as they accept the Torah is True and keep the commandments for women, even if they are single?!

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  157. Please subscribe to my blog, and share it with others.
    Thank you
    http://menachemsblog.blogspot.com/

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  158. However, women today have access to intellectual study of Torah. That was impossible in the not so far past, when women literally had time for nothing (life without electricity dictated another reality). Besides women from royal or rich families, no other had time to think beyond house chores.

    Although the Greeks seemed to have a very liberal thinking, they rejected to teach or even accept women in their study halls. In general, women had little or no access to knowledge.

    Yes, I agree there is a lot to be added to this topic because our reality have changed tremendously.

    Regarding the Olam Habah, I believe both men and women who do mitzvot with pure intentions deserve it, regardless if married or single. Women might not be required to study Torah, but they are not forbidden either, so if one of us want to dive into Torah study, I support her. Regarding other mitzvot we're exempt, I let the purity of her intentions be her judge.

    Being married or not do not count in anything for me, because for some women, being single was not her choice, they can't be accounted for something they are not responsible for. I also do not see a great value if a woman marries a rasha.

    What we need is a group of sages of modern time, to bring more opinions based in our current reality. If Abravanel lived in current times, what would his opinion be?

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  159. I meant to add the following:

    R' Yedaiah Bedersi in his letter to the Rashba (שו"ת הרשב"א א:תיח) explains/elaborates on the idea of ignoring specific statements of Chazal based on other general statements of Chazal, and he gives a couple of examples:

    אלא דבר אחד יהיה לנו כלל גדול בזה המין והוא כל זמן שיתבאר לנו סתירת המאמר ההוא הפרטי ממאמר אחר כללי מוסכם עליו מהחכמים ז"ל גם כן נדחת הפרטי מפני הכללי תמיד ונפרשהו ותהיה הסכמת האמונה על הכללי משל בזה כאמרם עתידה ארץ ישראל שתוציא גלוסקאות וכלי מילת באמת היינו משאירים פשוטו של זה המאמר מפני שיש בו הגדלת הארץ ופרסום הישועה אבל זה המאמר נדחה מפני אמרם על הכלל שאין בין העולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שעבוד מלכיות בלבד וכן כל מה שנמצאהו בתלמוד מחיוב מנהגי העולם הזה לאנשי העולם הבא כמו מאמר רבי בנאה הנזכר וזולתו רבים אחר שכולו היה אפשר בחק האל וזה בברוא תחלה גופות חשובים נעלמים מידיעתנו יכניס בהם הנפשות הנשארות ואחר ישכינם במקום ערב מאד מיוחד בארץ או בשמים שיהיו בו ויתענגו בהתענגות בני האדם או בדרך אחרת נפלאה בלתי יוצאת מההגשמות וגם שיהיה בזה קצת חוזק לאמונת ההמון אשר לא יחשב להם תענוג רוחני ולא יציירוהו היינו בודאי משאירים כל המאמרים הסובבים על זאת הכוונה על גלויים לולי באורם האמתי הכללי בזה הענין שאין בעולם הבא לא אכילה ולא שתיה ולא שאר המנהגים אלא צדיקין יושבין ועטרותיהן בראשיה' ונהנין מזיו שכינה כמה הוא מבואר זה המאמר וכמה מגלה מהאמת שאין ראוי לדחותו מפני שום מאמר

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  160. A similar shayla was asked about giving tzedaka. Since there are 'remaim' that don't fit the bill to deserve tzedaka, should/can people refrain because of the possibility of not getting the schar. The tshuva was, that one should give and will get schar, however, the remaim will get their onesh. Same here, ach yechaven libo leshamayim, and machshava kema'asseh.

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  161. A better way is to understand the Gemara is as you yourself mention in a comment here, that the Gemara in Berachos is discussing "How can women obtain the highest level that is reserved for gedolei Torah" -- NOT That there was any doubt that they get Olam Haba for all they do.
    This would seem to fit well with the Zohar which says they get great levels of Olam Haba, just not as high as those who studied Torah, etc.
    זוהר פרשת שלח
    כלהו באינון דיוקנין דהוו בהאי עלמא בלבושא דנהורא בלבושא דדכורין בר דלא נהרי הכי פקודין דאורייתא דלא זכו לקיימא לון בהאי עלמא משתדלי בהו ובטעמייהו בההוא עלמא, וכל הני נשין דיתבין בהדי בתיה בת פרעה אקרון נשים שאננות דלא אצטערו בצערא דגיהנם כלל
    Maybe one could even say this is the intent of the GR"A -- I would have to see the original inside.
    And anyway even according to the GR"A -- the Gemara in Berachos would have to be how they generally can get Olam Haba since they generally don't learn. But the GR"A says that women who DO Learn are fulfilling the Mitzvah of Talmud Torah (and can therefore make Birchas HaTorah), so could seemingly get Olam Haba on their own merit without being dependent on Men even according to the GRA. In any case, the simplest understanding is that there was never any doubt about their Olam Haba. And as above the Zohar is pretty clear on this as well.
    The way you have it described in the post is only one possible understanding (and to my mind far from the most compelling one).

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  162. Would you turn this into a separate post - which would involved translating the Hebrew?

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  163. would you like to work on a guest post on the subject?

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  164. Politically IncorrectDecember 5, 2016 at 2:09 PM

    Thanks so much, Harry. Nice post.

    This warrants a reply...at least the first paragraph. What I essentially meant to say was that although we are to learn Torah with our G-d given sechel, our sechel remains far inadequate to understand His instructions. We thus nontheless do learn Torah, (the open parts and hidden parts) with our sechel, but with a derech that He has given us and with the accepted concepts that were passed down all the way back from Sinai, as opposed to superficial translation from just reading words. (AL yodecho..bain einechoh.....)

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  165. I
    would think that the only reason for being in the image of G-d is for
    common language, communication, creativity... Since women are known for
    prophecy, insight, etc., etc. there should be no question about being
    in such Image. Also http://www.chabad.org/.../Kabbalah-on-Female-Superiority.htm

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  166. I suggest that the "rationalist" Rishonim saw certain recurring themes expressed by chazal and whenever they encountered an isolated statement that contradicted this recurring idea, they concluded the latter must be a minority view. Because they concluded (and rightly) that there can be no contradiction in the consensus of chazal.

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  167. Thank you, Rabbi, but my English is terrible... I will keep just making short comments here and there...

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  168. Thank you for replying. I was arguing that if (1) a Rishon feels that he can argue with Chazal in a certain issue, he will do so, and not beat around the bush by claiming that this is only a שיטה יחידאה without any evidence. If the Rishon considers Chazal to be authoritative, then (2) he will be forced to claim that the problematic statement is only a דעה יחידאה, and will always provide evidence of that. The Rambam, as you say, is an example of (2), whereas the Rashbam is clearly an example of (1). He doesn't bolster his position by claiming that it is a יחידאה, for which there is no evidence - he states quite clearly that he may argue, and is arguing. Now of course, since he argues, why not also point out that in fact this statement is only made by "קצת רז"ל" - this weakens the קושיא on Chazal, because now it is only on the few who said it. But that is an argument AFTER rejecting Chazal's statement, not a justification to reject it!

    Sorry if I am being longwinded. In a nutshell, I am saying this: I quoted a Gemara which explicitly refutes the Abarbanel. If one considers Chazalian statements (of this nature) to be non-authoritative, then the answer is that the Abarbanel is free to argue. But if you consider them authoritative, then you cannot posit a Machlokes among Chazal without providing evidence.

    Is it possible that we are in complete agreement?

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  169. see sefer tanya perek 24

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  170. I have finally got around to writing this up, and I thought of a possible resolution in explaining the Gemara in a way that does not contradict the Abarbanel. This is what I wrote:

    עירובין יח.

    בשלמא למאן דאמר פרצוף היינו דכתיב זכר ונקבה בראם אלא למאן דאמר זנב מאי זכר ונקבה בראם לכדר' אבהו דר' אבהו רמי כתיב זכר ונקבה בראם וכתיב בצלם אלהים ברא אותו בתחלה עלתה במחשבה לבראות שנים ולבסוף לא נברא אלא אחד – הנה בפי' ר"י אברבנאל שם (בראשית א:כז) פי' דלהכי כתיב "בצלם אלהים ברא אותו" בל' יחיד, בניגוד לרישי' דקרא "זכר ונקבה ברא אותם" ל' רבים, להורות כי רק הזכר נברא בצלם אלהים.

    ודבריו תמוהים לענ"ד, וקרא כתיב בפ' נח "שופך דם האדם באדם דמו ישפך כי בצלם אלהים עשה את האדם", וידוע דגם ההורג את האשה חייב מיתה (וערש"י שמות כא:יב), א"כ מוכח דגם אשה יש לה צלם אלהים. [וע"ע בס' בית אהרן (מגיד, ח"א ע' רנד) שהאריך להוכיח דבדרך כלל שם "אדם" כולל גם אשה. והכא ודאי אשה בכלל אדם, דהכתיב בפירוש "ויקרא את שמם אדם", וא"כ פשיטא דגם קרא ד"כי בצלם אלהים עשה את האדם" קאי גם אאשה.] ובלא"ה נר' דלא גרעא אשה מנכרי שנברא בצלם אלהים, כמ"ש התוי"ט בפרקי אבות על המשנה "חביב אדם שנברא בצלם". [ודבריו מתאימים עם דברי התוס' בב"ק שכ' ד"האדם" כולל גם נכרי, ואכ"מ.]

    והנה לכאו' גם מדברי הש"ס כאן מוכח דלא כהרי"א, דלפי דבריו מאי מקשה ר' אבהו, הא אה"נ דנבראו שנים אבל מ"מ כתיב "כי בצלם אלהים עשה את האדם" לשון יחיד, להורות כי רק הזכר נברא בצלם אלהים וכדברי הרי"א – א"ו דנקט הש"ס בפשיטות דגם האשה יש לה צלם אלהים, ודו"ק.
    אולם שוב חשבתי דאפשר דליכא ראי' מדברי הש"ס הכא, דיל"פ דברי הש"ס בע"א. ולפי דרכנו יתיישב קרא ד"כי בצלם אלהים עשה את האדם" גם אליבא דמ"ד ב' פרצופים נבראו. דלכאו' יש להעיר, אמאי לא פריך הש"ס מהך קרא אהך מ"ד? אולם לפ"ד הרי"א א"ש, די"ל דאף דנבראו שנים מ"מ אתי קרא למימר דרק הזכר נברא בצלם אלהים. אלא דר' אבהו סובר דזה דוחק, דאם נבראו שני פרצופים זה מורה שגם הנקיבה היא עיקרית בבריאה, וראוי שגם לה יהיה צלם אלהים! ואם אין לה צלם אלהים, מוכח דאינה עיקרית בבריאה, וא"כ א"א לומר דב' פרצופים נבראו, ותקשי קרא ד"זכר ונקבה בראם".
    ומתרץ דאה"נ, רק הזכר הוא העיקר ולכן באשה ליכא צלם אלהים, ונבראת רק זנב. והא דכתיב "זכר ונקיבה בראם", היינו רק מה שעלתה במחשבה, אבל לבסוף לא נברא אלא הזכר לבד, ודו"ק. באופן דלפ"ז אין סתירה מדברי הש"ס לדברי הרי"א.

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  171. This is phenomenal. Stunning. What do you plan to do with the information that women are, in fact, not actual people made in the image of God?

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  172. It would be helpful to this discussion if Rabbi Eidensohn would state what difference he thinks having a Tzelem Elokim makes.

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  173. The way I see it there are three separate questions:

    1) In the eyes of the rishonim are Chazal's statements always supremely authoritative?

    2) What constitutes evidence that something is only an opinion of some of Chazal?

    3) When rishonim claim that something is only a minority opinion did they actually believe that?

    The answer to number 1 is that there is a school of rishonim (some more so than others) that is willing to part from Chazal's opinions on certain types of issues. Exactly what the parameters of this are is not really important right now.

    The answer to number 2 is a little trickier. I think everyone can agree that if the Gemara clearly lays out פלוני אמר... ופלוני אמר then there is obviously a multiplicity of opinions among Chazal. However, the Rambam in the examples I gave takes statements which are not part of a machlokes, and calls them the opinion of "some" of Chazal, but he does bring statements of Chazal in other contexts to try to show that the specific statement under discussion is not the consensus opinion. (This is in accordance with the כתב נתנצלות להרשב"א that I quoted which explicitly lays out that we use general statements of Chazal to cast aside specific statements.) Does this count as real evidence? And the Ralbag goes even further and simply asserts that it is the opinion of some of Chazal, without providing any evidence whatsoever. Does this count for anything?

    The answer to the third question depends on how you are willing to view rishonim. Would they say something they didn't really believe in order to make it seem like they weren't really discarding the opinion of Chazal? The Rambam for one did not seem to have the highest opinion of the masses, and he does write from time to time how it is necessary to conceal certain things, so it is possible that he would do this.
    The Ralbag writes in Milchamos Hashem 1:14 writes that Torah trumps reason and says "We, too, behave accordingly if we see that religion requires a different view from the one that our reason has affirmed." Yet go find a single place where the Ralbag says that reason indicates X but he is mevatel to the Torah. Moreover in the introduction he writes that "if the literal sense of the Torah differs from reason, it is necessary to interpret those passages in accordance with the demands of reason." So was he deliberately obfuscating in 1:14? Perhaps he was simply catering to the masses who would find it objectionable if he were to openly disagree with the Torah/Chazal. He neatly avoids their wrath by "conveniently" always having it end up that the Torah/Chazal mean exactly what he derived via reason. And if he can't reinterpret he can always say it's only the opinion of some.

    So, after all is said and done, do we agree? We probably do for the most part, but I'm not sure that you accept the possibility that a rishon can make an unsupported claim of "it's only some of Chazal", regardless of whether he believed it or not.

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  174. My views are irrelevant - what do the classic authorities say.
    The rishonim clearly hold that it is abstract thought. Women obviously are intelligent but the believe is that there intelligence is in practical issues and not abstract.
    Chazal present the idea that tzelem elokim is the physical appearance - which means you need to keep your body clean and care for it as well as to sanctify all bodily activities such as eaching.
    Malbim says that tzelem elokim is free will which women obviously have as well as men

    Thus two of the three there are clear differences as to women having a tzelem elokim and to the same degree as men

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  175. *belief * their what is 'eaching'?

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  176. You have completely misunderstood my comment - I never asked you whether you think women have a Tzelem Elokim, I asked you if you could provide (at least) one proven example of something contingent upon having a Tzelem Elokim or not. In other words, למאי נפק"מ אם אשה יש לה צלם אלקים או לא. I have provided one, as have other contributors here - and those examples conclusively prove that Halachically we assume that a woman does have a Tzelem Elokim. You seem to think that it is still open for discussion - so you must have some other idea about what a Tzelem Elokim means for a woman. What is that?

    Now I have found that Shosh316 asks my question much better: what is the practical applications of this?

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  177. We are probably in agreement about the parameters of our disagreement! Have a good day.

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  178. In Creation, What was the point of Hashem reducing the Moon? Why did Hashem take Adams rib to form woman and not the other way around? Why don't we have two President's instead of having a vice president? Does the Vice President get to overrule the President? Is Hierarchy a Universal accepted rule in ruling Government and in nature? How would the world look if Fire Engine Kramer's back seat drivers would have been created equal?

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  179. Although Brurya was a learned woman putting all tiflus aside, she did not want to accept the fact that womankind was not created equal such as Nashim Da'aton kalos. After she learned her bitter lesson finding in out the truth, she did not climb the George Washington Bridge, but exited nevertheless. Even with Modern Medicine and plastic surgery you can only change the facade, but at the core, everything remains the same. At the end of the day, the more you change, the more it remains the same. Try to Reverse the direction hashem spinned the earth.

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  180. Politically IncorrectDecember 6, 2016 at 5:42 PM

    Ah, eureka, so we see that they get Olam Habo!

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  181. Politically IncorrectDecember 6, 2016 at 5:48 PM

    For one, To keep the blog interesting....perhaps also intellectual honesty - even if it be politically incorrect. What bothers me is that I have not found any indicator that they don't get Olam Habo, I do, however, acknowledge ample sources that would put the concept of what is known as "gender equality" into question. ......

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  182. The title of this article is inaccurate. It should read: "Was Chava created in the image of Hashem?" (although it doesn't compete with the sensationalism of the current title). It is not clear whether all men subsequent to Adam were created in the image of Hashem (see Bava Basra 58b: נסתכלת בדמות דיוקני בדיוקני עצמה אל תסתכל.( And the sources you have mentioned are inferring their contentions from the description of Adam and Chava's respective creation narratives.

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  183. we have been through this. If tzelem elokim is abstract thought and women don't have it and Olam Habah (or at least the highest levels) is dependent on abstract thought - then one who lacks it will not be able to achieve it Olam HaBah unless by playing a supportive role to those who have it.

    If you say that Tzelem Elokim is physical appearance - then there is an obligation of care for the phsyical well being of the body as well as the concern for kedusha.

    If you say that Tzelem Elokim is free-will - then there is the obligation to exercise it properly.

    Don't know why this isn't obvious?

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  184. no it is not inaccurate. There are views that the tzelem decreased significantly with time - doesn't change the basic point - especially if you understand as most commentaries do that whether there is a tzelem elokim applies to all future generations

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  185. you are ignoring Berachos 17a and the commentaries are brought

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  186. I don't think you are reading my posts - especially in regards to Berachos 17a

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  187. Exactly.
    Inasmuch as it is questionable whether subsequent generations of Adam have the tzelem Elokim, it is questionable whether the discussion about Chava being created in the image of GD is applicable to "women". If we were to assume that later man is not "created in the image of GD", women would likewise not have been "created in the image of GD". Therefore, the specific discussion whether there is any difference between the creation of man and that of women is clearly about Chava, but not so clearly about "women". Hence the inaccuracy of the title.

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  188. Politically IncorrectDecember 6, 2016 at 7:20 PM

    Another thing, although not sure how appreciated: this post goes far as to illustrate how far political correctness has gone! ...

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  189. But imagine this: this catches on and the rabbinic world decides to tell Jewish women that they are not in fact, tzelem elokim, that they exist simply to assist their husbands, that they cannot have olam habah unless they marry a scholar, that their husbands are to rule them etc. etc. What happens to the Jewish world? What is the positive of deciding to tell Jewish girls and women that they exist only for the men they serve?

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  190. If you think that Olam HaBa is dependant upon abstract thought, and that women are incapable of such thought - then you can already draw whatever conclusions you want to make, without claiming the Tzelem Elokim means the ability to think in the abstract.

    The Poskim imply that the obligation to care for the body applies to women as well, and free will also definitely applies to women - so that would be decisive proof that they too have a Tzelem Elokim acc. to these explanations.

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  191. Again I didn't originate the idea that Harlem rookie is abstract thought it is in rishonim

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