Sunday, August 30, 2009

Chareidi parking lot protests



See also YNET
JPOST

When will haredi protests in Jerusalem end?

Police refer to violent weekend in capital as 'a step up,' mayor and haredim holding steadfastly to their opinion in regards to opening of parking lot, but expert says there is a chance for calm after High Holidays

The haredi community's protests over the opening of a parking lot in Jerusalem on Shabbat continued this weekend, and as things look now, there is no end in sight. The past two days were particularly violent – a young ultra-Orthodox man was run over by a car, six policemen were lightly injured and about 16 demonstrators were arrested.

Haredi sources have vowed to "continue the protests until Nir Barkat capitulates and closes the parking lot," but one of the Jerusalem mayor's associates told Ynet on Saturday night that "the parking lot will remain open, and violence will definitely not change this."[...]

36 comments :

  1. Are any Gedolim behind the protest against the parking garage. What do the roshei yeshivos say about the protests?

    Does the parking garage impinge on any frum neighborhood?

    If not, why is there more of a protest about this than any other form of public chilul Shabbos that goes on?

    Rabbi Gershon Zaks z"l felt that we should not force anyone to keep the Torah. He said we should just seek to have them let us keep the Torah the way we want to and not inhibit us.

    ReplyDelete
  2. "Are any Gedolim behind the protest against the parking garage."

    Yes. They not only are behind it, many of them actually participate in the protests.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Blogger Joseph said...

    "Are any Gedolim behind the protest against the parking garage."

    Yes. They not only are behind it, many of them actually participate in the protests.
    ==============
    Could you name names? In particular is anyone outside the Eidah actively involved?

    ReplyDelete
  4. "Could you name names? In particular is anyone outside the Eidah actively involved?"

    I can name some, but I don't see any reason to differentiate whether the Gedolim are inside or outside of Eidah.

    There are many more Gedolim who support it, then who actively attend them. Those who attend are probably more closely aligned to the Eidah, but there are many more Gedolim who support it in principal.

    ReplyDelete
  5. These are some of the Gedolim who I know attended (amongst others):

    Pinsk-Karlin Rebbe Shlita
    Gavaad HaGaon HaRav Yitzchak Tuvia Weiss
    Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita

    And here are some of the Gedolim who supported it:


    Maran Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita
    Maran Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita
    Rav Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg
    Rav Yitzchak Sheiner
    Rav Yosef Lieberman
    Rav Reuven Elbaz
    Rav Aryeh HaCohen Rosenfeld
    Rav Yaakov Chaim Sofer

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=36162

    ReplyDelete
  6. Yosef said:
    And here are some of the Gedolim who supported it:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=36162
    ===================
    The article is dated June 26, 2009.

    How do you know these gedolim support weekly protests rather than just the idea that they disapprove of chillul Shabbos? Did they specifically approve of weekly demonstrations that will possibly continue for years

    ReplyDelete
  7. Is there any reason to believe they no longer support it? If they announced they supported the protest, I see no reason to suspect they no longer do unless they so indicate.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Joseph said...

    Is there any reason to believe they no longer support it? If they announced they supported the protest, I see no reason to suspect they no longer do unless they so indicate.
    =================
    yes - for example Rav Sternbuch does not approve of ongoing demonstrations every week.

    since it has not been clearly stated what any of these gedolim hold - I don't see how you can claim they agree with the protests - especially in their present form.

    Obviously for those who actually show up then it is obvious what they hold.

    ReplyDelete
  9. At minimum we know a group of Gedolim actively support it, and many other Gedolim supported it in the past and may continue to the best of our knowledge. I don't know of any Gedolim on the record as opposing it; do you?

    ReplyDelete
  10. I don't believe the letter you published from HaRav Sternbuch Shlita indicated he opposed the protest themselves. Correct me please if I am mistaken.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Blogger Joseph said...

    I don't believe the letter you published from HaRav Sternbuch Shlita indicated he opposed the protest themselves. Correct me please if I am mistaken
    ==============
    The letter I published was with regards the violent protests regarding the alleged abusive mother. He said there that he was against violent protests.

    Rav Sternbuch feels that chillul Shabbos must be protested - but that does not mean continual protests.

    Similarly with the gay parade he holds a protest but it is once a year.

    Regarding coming out against protests it is not politically correct or healthy. The absence of an explicit objection doesn't mean anything. The question is there continued published support? Are any of the gedolim's major supporters physically there.

    As far as I know - there are no representatives from the Mirrer or Ponavitch. Torah Ohr has not sent a delegation.

    There was a recent article in Mishpacha from Rabbi Pappenheim in which he said that demonstrations to get other people to be observant were not helpful and were not representative of the gedolim of previous generations and in fact they served to prevent people from becoming frum.

    He was later forced to retract that position.

    As I have stated before there is fear and intimidation for even those who are part of the system.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Daas Torah wrote: "Regarding coming out against protests it is not politically correct or healthy. The absence of an explicit objection doesn't mean anything. The question is there continued published support? Are any of the gedolim's major supporters physically there.

    Au contraire. The Gedolim are not creatures of political correctness. They are precisely the ones who stand up against political correctness. So the absence of an explicit objection, especially subsequent to their public support, does mean something.

    And the implication that the Gedolei Yisroel Shlita are mere puppets of malevolent behind-the-scenes evil "askanim" is abhorrent. It would be astounding to believe that even one Godol Yisroel Shlita was capable of being thoroughly and continually manipulated by anyone (or ones) on an issue; by either constantly hiding the facts from the Godol, or actually threatening the Godol (even implicitly) with harm. A Godol, by definition, is highly capable of standing up to threats against his welfare and not cave in to such alleged demands; and a Godol, by definition, can see through attempted manipulation of the facts to him.

    And that would be with a Godol in the singular. To allege the above pertaining to all (or many) of the Gedolei Yisroel on the same issue -- that some sinister person or people is capable of manipulating all (or many of) Gedolei Yisroel on an issue -- and all of the Gedolei Yisroel can not stand up and must act as puppets of such henchmen - or at the very least the must all remain silent in the face of such "threat", is perposterous and beyond belief.

    Who exactly are these evil henchmen doing such dirty work behind the scenes? What exactly are they doing (or threatening) to enforce their will? Why do they have such ideas? How can they perpetuate them without the free support of Gedolei Yisroel Shlita? How is it that not a singular (at least) voice of Gedolei Yisroel should expose them, oppose them, and protest? Where do they obtain this tremendous power from?

    Why is it so difficult to believe that the Gedolei Yisroel Shlita actually say what they mean, and mean what they say (rather than believe in this conspiracy)? Why is it so difficult to believe that if Gedolei Yisroel Shlita don't say something, then they don't say it out of their own volition?

    ReplyDelete
  13. Joseph wrote:
    Why is it so difficult to believe that the Gedolei Yisroel Shlita actually say what they mean, and mean what they say (rather than believe in this conspiracy)? Why is it so difficult to believe that if Gedolei Yisroel Shlita don't say something, then they don't say it out of their own volition?
    ===========
    The problem is that a press release in Yeshiva World News is not the same as a letter written on their letterhead.

    Have you seen a statement from Rav Eliashiv or Rav Chaim Kaminetsky etc
    that they support the demonstrations and that they want the Jewish people to protest week after week until the Mayor admits defeat?

    Have you seen any gadol announcing the importance of throwing rocks or lying under cars or calling police Nazis?

    Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    ReplyDelete
  14. Have you seen a statement from Rav Eliashiv or Rav Chaim Kaminetsky etc
    that they support the demonstrations and that they want the Jewish people to protest week after week until the Mayor admits defeat?


    Granted, just the same release previously referenced.

    And you've indicated above you haven't anything official otherwise. Just you supposition of their fears.

    Have you seen any gadol announcing the importance of throwing rocks or lying under cars or calling police Nazis?

    Au contraire.

    Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita

    Toldos Aharon rebbe asked his chassidim to demonstrate in Meah Shearim ONLY and not near the karta parking lot.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita

    Toldos Aharon rebbe asked his chassidim to demonstrate in Meah Shearim ONLY and not near the karta parking lot.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?
    ==============
    If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?
    ==============
    If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?
    ==============
    If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?
    ==============
    If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?

    Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?
    ==============
    If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.

    ReplyDelete
  22. What is your "superior" source(s) of information? (Proving your point; or disproving mine.)

    ReplyDelete
  23. Why is there a protest against this parking lot and not against the general chilul shabbos in Yerushalaim?

    Why aren't there demands for protests in chutz laaretz against chilul shabbos in Jewish neighborhoods?

    Does no on have any direct contact with the Roshei Yeshivos or manhigei Yisroel so that we can get a clear guideline?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Here are two that I can name. Rabbi Moshe Tzadakah this past shabbat denounced the protests as a Chilul HaShem and Chilul Shabbat in a speech he gave at a dinner held in honor of the hilulah of the Ben Ish Hai. In attendance were R' Amar, R' O Yosef, and R' Yitzchak Yosef, amongst other Gedolim. Non-contradicted R' Tzadaka's statements, and R' Yosef in his opening remarks actually indicated agreement with R' Tzadakah.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Also the rulings of R' Ovadiah Yosef directly contradict the actions of the protests. He has ruled in numerous places that to cause a car to slow down or stop is a chilul shabbat, and thus one should wait to cross the street until no cars are comming. To block a parking lot, appears to me to be the same action. This is but one example. To say that he is giving permission to something that is actively violating his own rulings is highly problematic.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Yerushlayim is unique in Kedushusa, and its sanctity combined with the sanctity of Shabbos Kodesh in Yerushlayim is of paramount concern. Any further dilution of (at minimum) the status quo, is reason for anguish and protest.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Joseph said...

    Yerushlayim is unique in Kedushusa, and its sanctity combined with the sanctity of Shabbos Kodesh in Yerushlayim is of paramount concern. Any further dilution of (at minimum) the status quo, is reason for anguish and protest.
    ==============
    that isn't a question. What is a question is whether the protest is a major chilul hashem which doesn't convince the world of the anguish of the Orthodox but rather their insanity and the perception that religous Jews are disgusting animals.

    ReplyDelete
  28. that isn't a question. What is a question is whether the protest is a major chilul hashem which doesn't convince the world of the anguish of the Orthodox but rather their insanity and the perception that religous Jews are disgusting animals.
    ==============
    The anti-religious press will make the most peaceful protest look like a riot.

    That is no reason, IMHO, to not protest.

    ReplyDelete
  29. July 2003

    "If the Jerusalem police start banging heads indiscriminately, as they have sometimes done in the past, the disturbances of the past three weeks will only escalate, and the small handful of leaders of these demonstrations will have won. Once again, a fringe element of the haredi community will become the tail wagging the dog and succeed in dragging the larger community in its wake."

    "The small band of "zealots" stirring up the action represents a small sliver of the haredi community. Even within Meah Shearim itself, they are a minority. They answer to no rabbinic authority. Posters signed by the rabbinic leadership of the Eidah Haharedis have never deterred them. Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the greatest living halachic authority, is as much their target as Lupoliansky himself. In the past, they have thrown stones at the nonagenarian sage, and are fully capable of doing so again."

    ReplyDelete
  30. I would like to know what Rav Finkel, Rav Elyashiv and Rav Avrohom Yehoshua hold.

    We've heard the Eidah Chareidis side and the Sephardi Gedolim's opinion.

    Anyone have contact with yunger leit from the Mir or Brisk or with reliable sources close to Rav Elyashiv?

    ReplyDelete
  31. Rav Elyashiv signed on the original protest against the Karta chillul Shabbos.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Joseph said...

    Rav Elyashiv signed on the original protest against the Karta chillul Shabbos.
    ===================
    Assuming that is true (and that can't be assumed)- what did the document say and does he approve the way the protests are being done?

    Rav Sternuch also signed on the original protest - but he doesn't agree with what is going on now.

    ReplyDelete
  33. http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/topic.asp?topic_id=2635332&forum_id=20438

    ReplyDelete
  34. The protest is hypocritical. Our gedolim fail, either through setting an enviously positive example, or through providing a quality education, to inspire other Jews to at least be respectful of the more outwardly observant, and then blame the victims for the crime. Yes, the nonreligious are victims of a poor education, and a poor upbringing. Since when do we educate the ignorant via protests?

    ReplyDelete
  35. @ Jack,

    You are making a mistake.

    The protests are not for the benefit of the non religious. They are for the religious to maintain their strength in adherence of Shabbos. We are not worried about the impact on the non frum in relation to the necessity of doing this.

    It's like what the Brisker Rov said, when it hurts, you cry out.

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.