tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post536583669375174764..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Chareidi parking lot protestsDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26883107964934727072009-09-03T05:53:27.793+03:002009-09-03T05:53:27.793+03:00tzoorba:
Good point.tzoorba:<br /><br />Good point.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47532917772471928012009-09-03T01:38:01.388+03:002009-09-03T01:38:01.388+03:00@ Jack,
You are making a mistake.
The protests ...@ Jack,<br /><br />You are making a mistake. <br /><br />The protests are not for the benefit of the non religious. They are for the religious to maintain their strength in adherence of Shabbos. We are not worried about the impact on the non frum in relation to the necessity of doing this.<br /><br />It's like what the Brisker Rov said, when it hurts, you cry out.tzoorbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41286501434717229762009-09-01T16:45:00.895+03:002009-09-01T16:45:00.895+03:00The protest is hypocritical. Our gedolim fail, ei...The protest is hypocritical. Our gedolim fail, either through setting an enviously positive example, or through providing a quality education, to inspire other Jews to at least be respectful of the more outwardly observant, and then blame the victims for the crime. Yes, the nonreligious are victims of a poor education, and a poor upbringing. Since when do we educate the ignorant via protests?Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9032413547990338162009-09-01T14:40:31.695+03:002009-09-01T14:40:31.695+03:00http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/topic.asp?topic_id=263...http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/topic.asp?topic_id=2635332&forum_id=20438Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46989447251249566262009-09-01T14:38:21.902+03:002009-09-01T14:38:21.902+03:00Joseph said...
Rav Elyashiv signed on the ori...Joseph said...<br /><br /> Rav Elyashiv signed on the original protest against the Karta chillul Shabbos.<br />===================<br />Assuming that is true (and that can't be assumed)- what did the document say and does he approve the way the protests are being done?<br /><br />Rav Sternuch also signed on the original protest - but he doesn't agree with what is going on now.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1630451204321209382009-09-01T14:20:02.276+03:002009-09-01T14:20:02.276+03:00Rav Elyashiv signed on the original protest agains...Rav Elyashiv signed on the original protest against the Karta chillul Shabbos.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23041677867825489432009-09-01T06:29:46.774+03:002009-09-01T06:29:46.774+03:00I would like to know what Rav Finkel, Rav Elyashiv...I would like to know what Rav Finkel, Rav Elyashiv and Rav Avrohom Yehoshua hold.<br /><br />We've heard the Eidah Chareidis side and the Sephardi Gedolim's opinion.<br /><br />Anyone have contact with yunger leit from the Mir or Brisk or with reliable sources close to Rav Elyashiv?tzoorbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13101989836468343672009-09-01T06:27:20.025+03:002009-09-01T06:27:20.025+03:00July 2003
"If the Jerusalem police start ban...<a href="http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/600/stop-the-demonstrations-for-g-ds-sake" rel="nofollow">July 2003</a><br /><br />"If the Jerusalem police start banging heads indiscriminately, as they have sometimes done in the past, the disturbances of the past three weeks will only escalate, and the small handful of leaders of these demonstrations will have won. Once again, a fringe element of the haredi community will become the tail wagging the dog and succeed in dragging the larger community in its wake." <br /><br />"The small band of "zealots" stirring up the action represents a small sliver of the haredi community. Even within Meah Shearim itself, they are a minority. They answer to no rabbinic authority. Posters signed by the rabbinic leadership of the Eidah Haharedis have never deterred them. Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the greatest living halachic authority, is as much their target as Lupoliansky himself. In the past, they have thrown stones at the nonagenarian sage, and are fully capable of doing so again."NMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90601331253723803732009-08-31T17:27:49.590+03:002009-08-31T17:27:49.590+03:00that isn't a question. What is a question is w...that isn't a question. What is a question is whether the protest is a major chilul hashem which doesn't convince the world of the anguish of the Orthodox but rather their insanity and the perception that religous Jews are disgusting animals.<br />==============<br />The anti-religious press will make the most peaceful protest look like a riot. <br /><br />That is no reason, IMHO, to not protest.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83876298510967725652009-08-31T17:14:45.705+03:002009-08-31T17:14:45.705+03:00Joseph said...
Yerushlayim is unique in Kedus...Joseph said...<br /><br /> Yerushlayim is unique in Kedushusa, and its sanctity combined with the sanctity of Shabbos Kodesh in Yerushlayim is of paramount concern. Any further dilution of (at minimum) the status quo, is reason for anguish and protest.<br />==============<br />that isn't a question. What is a question is whether the protest is a major chilul hashem which doesn't convince the world of the anguish of the Orthodox but rather their insanity and the perception that religous Jews are disgusting animals.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70995708459335653692009-08-31T17:07:07.209+03:002009-08-31T17:07:07.209+03:00Yerushlayim is unique in Kedushusa, and its sancti...Yerushlayim is unique in Kedushusa, and its sanctity combined with the sanctity of Shabbos Kodesh in Yerushlayim is of paramount concern. Any further dilution of (at minimum) the status quo, is reason for anguish and protest.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22848740147892505302009-08-31T17:01:20.964+03:002009-08-31T17:01:20.964+03:00Also the rulings of R' Ovadiah Yosef directly ...Also the rulings of R' Ovadiah Yosef directly contradict the actions of the protests. He has ruled in numerous places that to cause a car to slow down or stop is a chilul shabbat, and thus one should wait to cross the street until no cars are comming. To block a parking lot, appears to me to be the same action. This is but one example. To say that he is giving permission to something that is actively violating his own rulings is highly problematic.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-63886650478130712622009-08-31T16:57:50.083+03:002009-08-31T16:57:50.083+03:00Here are two that I can name. Rabbi Moshe Tzadaka...Here are two that I can name. Rabbi Moshe Tzadakah this past shabbat denounced the protests as a Chilul HaShem and Chilul Shabbat in a speech he gave at a dinner held in honor of the hilulah of the Ben Ish Hai. In attendance were R' Amar, R' O Yosef, and R' Yitzchak Yosef, amongst other Gedolim. Non-contradicted R' Tzadaka's statements, and R' Yosef in his opening remarks actually indicated agreement with R' Tzadakah.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32565904538238461962009-08-31T16:24:18.883+03:002009-08-31T16:24:18.883+03:00Why is there a protest against this parking lot an...Why is there a protest against this parking lot and not against the general chilul shabbos in Yerushalaim? <br /><br />Why aren't there demands for protests in chutz laaretz against chilul shabbos in Jewish neighborhoods?<br /><br />Does no on have any direct contact with the Roshei Yeshivos or manhigei Yisroel so that we can get a clear guideline?tzoorbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78215398703429197252009-08-31T10:48:12.214+03:002009-08-31T10:48:12.214+03:00What is your "superior" source(s) of inf...What is your "superior" source(s) of information? (Proving your point; or disproving mine.)Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19723088875862268432009-08-31T10:39:48.541+03:002009-08-31T10:39:48.541+03:00Bottom line - where are you getting your informati...Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?<br /><br />Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?<br />==============<br />If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8251189953825311362009-08-31T10:39:43.471+03:002009-08-31T10:39:43.471+03:00Bottom line - where are you getting your informati...Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?<br /><br />Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?<br />==============<br />If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7169411585260552572009-08-31T10:39:40.104+03:002009-08-31T10:39:40.104+03:00Bottom line - where are you getting your informati...Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?<br /><br />Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?<br />==============<br />If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16690712613383711772009-08-31T10:39:33.438+03:002009-08-31T10:39:33.438+03:00Bottom line - where are you getting your informati...Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?<br /><br />Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?<br />==============<br />If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78127836293564707462009-08-31T10:39:30.103+03:002009-08-31T10:39:30.103+03:00Bottom line - where are you getting your informati...Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?<br /><br />Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?<br />==============<br />If all you are relying on is a month old anonymous press item on an internet chareidi news site and the fact that no one has issue a statement otherwise - then yes your sources are inferior.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21821630646758976522009-08-31T05:02:33.302+03:002009-08-31T05:02:33.302+03:00Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita
Toldos Aharon rebbe ask...Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita<br /><br />Toldos Aharon rebbe asked his chassidim to demonstrate in Meah Shearim ONLY and not near the karta parking lot.tzipschumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74632399740793390352009-08-31T05:02:31.973+03:002009-08-31T05:02:31.973+03:00Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita
Toldos Aharon rebbe ask...Toldos Aaron Rebbe Shlita<br /><br />Toldos Aharon rebbe asked his chassidim to demonstrate in Meah Shearim ONLY and not near the karta parking lot.tzipschumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88561521962383060002009-08-31T03:21:32.221+03:002009-08-31T03:21:32.221+03:00Have you seen a statement from Rav Eliashiv or Rav...<i>Have you seen a statement from Rav Eliashiv or Rav Chaim Kaminetsky etc <br />that they support the demonstrations and that they want the Jewish people to protest week after week until the Mayor admits defeat?</i><br /><br />Granted, just the same release previously referenced.<br /><br />And you've indicated above you haven't anything official otherwise. Just you supposition of their fears.<br /><br /><i>Have you seen any gadol announcing the importance of throwing rocks or lying under cars or calling police Nazis?</i><br /><br />Au contraire.<br /><br /><i>Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?</i><br /><br />Are my information sources inferior to yours, as indicated above?Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75686015825627838642009-08-31T02:01:14.863+03:002009-08-31T02:01:14.863+03:00Joseph wrote:
Why is it so difficult to believe th...Joseph wrote:<br />Why is it so difficult to believe that the Gedolei Yisroel Shlita actually say what they mean, and mean what they say (rather than believe in this conspiracy)? Why is it so difficult to believe that if Gedolei Yisroel Shlita don't say something, then they don't say it out of their own volition?<br />===========<br />The problem is that a press release in Yeshiva World News is not the same as a letter written on their letterhead.<br /><br />Have you seen a statement from Rav Eliashiv or Rav Chaim Kaminetsky etc <br />that they support the demonstrations and that they want the Jewish people to protest week after week until the Mayor admits defeat?<br /><br />Have you seen any gadol announcing the importance of throwing rocks or lying under cars or calling police Nazis?<br /><br />Bottom line - where are you getting your information regarding the views of gedolim in this matter?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87963319312868600662009-08-31T01:00:00.378+03:002009-08-31T01:00:00.378+03:00Daas Torah wrote: "Regarding coming out again...Daas Torah wrote: "<i>Regarding coming out against protests it is not politically correct or healthy. The absence of an explicit objection doesn't mean anything. The question is there continued published support? Are any of the gedolim's major supporters physically there.</i><br /><br />Au contraire. The Gedolim are not creatures of political correctness. They are precisely the ones who stand up against political correctness. So the absence of an explicit objection, especially subsequent to their public support, does mean something.<br /><br />And the implication that the Gedolei Yisroel Shlita are mere puppets of malevolent behind-the-scenes evil "askanim" is abhorrent. It would be astounding to believe that even one Godol Yisroel Shlita was capable of being thoroughly and continually manipulated by anyone (or ones) on an issue; by either constantly hiding the facts from the Godol, or actually threatening the Godol (even implicitly) with harm. A Godol, by definition, is highly capable of standing up to threats against his welfare and not cave in to such alleged demands; and a Godol, by definition, can see through attempted manipulation of the facts to him.<br /><br />And that would be with a Godol in the singular. To allege the above pertaining to all (or many) of the Gedolei Yisroel on the same issue -- that some sinister person or people is capable of manipulating all (or many of) Gedolei Yisroel on an issue -- and all of the Gedolei Yisroel can not stand up and must act as puppets of such henchmen - or at the very least the must all remain silent in the face of such "threat", is perposterous and beyond belief.<br /><br />Who exactly are these evil henchmen doing such dirty work behind the scenes? What exactly are they doing (or threatening) to enforce their will? Why do they have such ideas? How can they perpetuate them without the free support of Gedolei Yisroel Shlita? How is it that not a singular (at least) voice of Gedolei Yisroel should expose them, oppose them, and protest? Where do they obtain this tremendous power from?<br /><br />Why is it so difficult to believe that the Gedolei Yisroel Shlita actually say what they mean, and mean what they say (rather than believe in this conspiracy)? Why is it so difficult to believe that if Gedolei Yisroel Shlita don't say something, then they don't say it out of their own volition?Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.com