- We have two contradictory assertions: Which is closer to reality? This is a very important question!
- 1)
Are You People For Real? said... Anonymous 11:39 Writes:
90% of intermarried Jews do so out of IGNORANCE.
"The Jew who marries outside of his faith has made a deliberate decision to cut HIM/HERSELF off from the Jewish people FOREVER. Such a Jew has very intentionally spit in the face of G-d.
What is the point of chasing after such a person?"
The proof of your ignorance lies in the body of your post.
They were raised in assimilated families, in assimilated neighborhoods, with the Reform & Conservative instilling within them that Hashem, Torah & Mitzvot belong to a bygone age when people were backwards and unenlightened.
Unfortunately and extremely sad, you, my friend, are what the non-halachic movements refer to when speaking of the "backwards & unenlightened", as you go through life with blinders on, wishing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Jews who have married out did not do so with the idea of spitting in the face of Hashem, nor to rebel against their Jewishness.
They were taught in public school that being Jewish is the same as being Irish, French, Romanian or Mexican, and that it's racist to in-marry.
Please wake up before you and those who are as clueless chase even more Yidden in tot the arms of alternative religious movements.
- 2) Anonymous said...
As someone who had the misfortune of being raised Ultra-Reform, I can state with absolute authority that "are you people for real?"'s statement of the ignorance of the Reform is absolutely false.
ALL Jews, including those who affiliate as Reform or Conservative, know that intermarriage is forbidden.
The Reform Rabbi of our community absolutely refused to perform or recognize an intermarriage, and the same went for all of the others in our State at the time (New Jersey mid 1980s).
When my sister decided to marry a gentile, she understood that Judaism forbade it, knew her parents might reject her as well as a lot of her friends, and made the conscious choice that her selfish desires and American constitutional value system was of greater importance to her than the preservation of her Jewish identity.
Part of being raised Reform meant that 7 of my 8 cousins intermarried and so did 1 of my 2 sisters. They all knew exactly what they were doing and understood the choice they were making.
They just don't think it matters in the scheme of things and that if there is a G-d, they will surely be forgiven of their sins.
Your case is that anyone who would intermarry does so out of ignorance and that therefore it is incumbent upon the religious hierarchy to facilitate a virtual "pardon" by enabling the kashering of the intermarriage via conversion.
My case is that if the Jew and gentile who are involved in the intermarriage can be made to understand the gravity of what they have done, that the gentile will divorce the Jew because she loves him and cares more about his immortal soul than being "happy" during these few fleeting years we have in the physical world, or that the Jew will initiate the divorce for the same reason.
A [gentile] friend of mine said it very well: when he heard two Jews talking about accepting an intermarriage because "Bob"s 'happiness' was what was really important, he answered by saying that a shot of Heroin would also make him happy. It doesn't mean it's good for him.
You seem to believe that the Creator of the Universe can be "forced" or duped into accepting a Torah level violation because of some Rabbinic sleight of hand. If that's the case, why stop at intermarriage? We can advance to Idolatry, Incest, and Homosexuality until we finally find an "Orthodox" Rabbi who lets a man marry his own brother with Chuppah and Kiddishin and you'll tell us that the Rabbi is preventing them both from sinning.
Monday, February 4, 2008
Intermarriage results from the couple's ignorance that it is wrong?
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Anonymous wrote:
ReplyDelete"The Reform Rabbi of our community absolutely refused to perform or recognize an intermarriage, and the same went for all of the others in our State at the time (New Jersey mid 1980s).
When my sister decided to marry a gentile, she understood that Judaism forbade it, knew her parents might reject her as well as a lot of her friends, and made the conscious choice that her selfish desires and American constitutional value system was of greater importance to her than the preservation of her Jewish identity."
You don't get what I am trying to say.
It is EXACTLY because of the non-Orthodox movements that non-frum Jews have zero connection to Hashem, Torah & Mitzvot. Your Reform Rabbi refusing to perform mixed marriages is like the Giants coach refusing to embrace the Patriots coach simply because they are on opposing teams.
Who cares?
You have even bought into their definition of "Jewish identity", which is total B.S.
Who the hell cares about a Jewish identity void of Hashem, Torah & Mitzvot.
The alternative "streams" are selling American Jews a lie that "Jewish identity" is so important, and it would be just so horrendous if they rejected their "Jewish identity" and married someone not part of the tribe.
Coming from that state of mind, can't you see why & how all your relatives intermarried? The non-Orthodox philosophy of marrying Jewish is completely biased, racist & prejudicial. It's idiotic.
Do Frenchmen marry Englishwomen? Do Lebanese marry Moroccans?
So according to non-frum belief systems, that philosophy makes total sense.
So the congregants are being taught social justice, human equality, the great melting pot, etc.
It is the American melting pot nightmare that did this to Judaism.
It is because of the Reform, Conservative and other so-called Jewish movements that taught us that being Jewish is no different than being Gentile.
And according to them, they are correct, because without Hashem, Torah & Mitzvot, we are no different than Gentiles.
So why would you blame the victims such as your relatives who
intermarried.
Telling a non-religious Jew not to intermarry is equivalent to telling a white person not to marry a black person, or a Catholic not to marry a Protestant. It comes across as stupid and close-minded.
Can't you see how our non-frum brethren have been duped? Are you so blind as to blame them instead of the non-frum movements that perpetuated this spiritual crime against our loved ones.
In response to "are you people"s most recent post, it is not relevant WHY the "non frum" intermarry.
ReplyDeleteWhat is relevant is that even the "non frum" know it is forbidden.
The question here at the top is whether intermarriage results from the couple's ignorance. My sister and cousins may have been ignorant about the how and why of Halacha, but they definitely knew it was forbidden.
In fact, my sister kept her relationship a secret from my parents for two years and fully expected to be disowned and got married by a Judge. Same goes for my cousins.
I while agree 100% with your statement "Telling a non-religious Jew not to intermarry is equivalent to telling a white person not to marry a black person, or a Catholic not to marry a Protestant. It comes across as stupid and close-minded" this still does not take away the fact that the non-frum are raised with the value that Intermarriage is WRONG.
Even the Reform consider it a betrayal of the Jewish people if one intermarries. ALL Reform Jews are raised knowing Intermarriage is wrong.
Do the esoteric differences of "why" it is wrong really matter? I don't pontificate about why I don't eat pork sausage. Who cares what the real reason is? I don't eat it, and the Reform forbid it too.
Is it your position that one must understand the "why" of Mitzvah in order to be required to perform it?
Anonymous writes:
ReplyDelete"Even the Reform consider it a betrayal of the Jewish people if one intermarries. ALL Reform Jews are raised knowing Intermarriage is wrong.
Do the esoteric differences of "why" it is wrong really matter? I don't pontificate about why I don't eat pork sausage. Who cares what the real reason is? I don't eat it, and the Reform forbid it too.
Is it your position that one must understand the "why" of Mitzvah in order to be required to perform it?"
Yes, the Reform consider it a betrayal if one intermarries. But non-frum Judaism is like belonging to a local country club.
If one country club forbids the members not to fraternize with members of the country club across town, why would anybody listen?
The non-Ortho streams are just that - Jewish country clubs. To borrow a slogan from a well known credit card company: "Membership has it's privileges".
Those privileges were known by our previous Jewish generations. They knew, even though they were rejecting halacha, that they shouldn't intermarry.
I am in my early 40s. Those raised non-Ortho of my generation are so far removed from knowing any spiritual reasons why Jews should not marry Gentiles that you cannot possibly think that telling them and those even more far removed in their teens & 20s would seriously consider not intermarrying because the G-d they don't even believe in, and the religious movement they are somewhat affilated with "forbids" them to do so, will actually listen?
So yes, one MUST understand the "why" of doing mitzvot. especially the non-Orthodox.
Before I was frum, I loved eating shrimp, lobster, cheeseburgers and ham. Would the idea of a Santa Claus-like deity in the sky disapproving of me doing so convince me not to?
This is how the non-frum think.
Give them reasons to believe, and their pintele yid will do the rest, my friend.
It is very sad that most Orthodox people don't understand this. Instead they blame the victims, those who were taught nonsense from the alternative so-called Jewish streams.
Arachim, Aish Hatorah, Gateways, and all the other kiruv organizations get it.
May Hashem bless you with the discernment to do likewise.
Dear "are you people for real?"
ReplyDeleteThe same "pintele yid" that gave you the strength to give up the shrimp, ham, cheeseburgers and lobster that you loved will also give you the strength to give up all of the other forbidden physical pleasures you enjoy, including forbidden flesh.
If you desired the forbidden pleasures adultery, incest or homosexuality should these also be permitted to you because of your deficient "upbringing"??
Perhaps you once did not know better, but you do now. You thought lobster was the most delicious thing in the world but you will live without it in order to serve Hashem. If you truly wish to serve Hashem, you will also live without the other forbidden flesh you continue to enjoy.
Hashem chooses our parents for us and Hashem chose for you to be brought into a non observant home. You were given an opportunity for greatness because our Sages tell us that the a perfect tzaddik cannot stand in the place of a Baal Teshuva.
I hope that you will seize the opportunity that has been put before you; that you will turn your back upon all the forbidden flesh in your life and that you will soon serve Hashem SINCERELY with the pure and holy soul with which you have been gifted.
I hope that you will choose LIFE, the ETERNAL LIFE that is your birthright. No cheeseburger or lobster is worth giving up eternity for nor is any other pleasure of the flesh, it is all fleeting in the context of FOREVER.
Dear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYou would make a horrible preacher.
Please try delivering that message to the millions of intermarried Yidden.
One doesn't have to imagine what their response will be to you.
Please write more when you come back to reality.