Tuesday, August 12, 2008

Chabad III - Messianics/Everyone is today?

eliyahu's follow up comment to "Chabad - Messianics - Everyone is today!":

I am glad to see that my words were read, and being that a few important point were raised I would like to address them:

1)it was mentioned a few times what I wrote about the meshechistim being a minority & to this people responded that beis moshiach is read just as much as kfar chabad etc. those who read my words carefully would have noticed that I stressed a number of times that in CHUTZ LAORETZ they are a minority. Unfortunately in Ey they are about half of chabad (or at least what is called chabad – I however do not consider the extreme meshchistem who make the iker of there avoidas hashem publicizing their mistaken beliefs, to be chabad at all. The avoidas hashem of a true chabad chossid is learning chasidus in depth, davening beavoida & having mesirus nefesh for kiyum hatorah vehamitzvos by trying to bring each & every jew closer to it). Another important point: the mishechistim (at least the Israely one's) are like a cult. Therefore each & every one of them see it as a choiv kadosh to read there party's newspaper, come to their gatherings etc., a regular anti meshechist on the other hand, unless he is interested, does not feel any specific need to buy kfar chabad. Another important point: beis moshiach has an english section thus making it more popular.

2)Someone commented on my usage of language “does not CONTINUE to be mashiach”, i'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant to say will not be the moshiach (the “continue” was referring to the fact that before his histalkus it was verry probable that the rebbe zy”a was moshiach, ma shein kein now).

3) A point was made about the kfar chabad magazine not ever writing clearly that the rebbe is not moshiach. This point is something which bothers me very much too, unfortunately the kfar chabad magazine is headed by people who just as much interested in making money as publicizing the true chabad viewpoint – therefore because they want to also attract non extreme meshechist readers they are carefull never to write that the rebbe is not moshiach. I would also like to point out that, contrary to what the kfar chabad write themselves, what is written in their magazine dos in no way represent the veiw points of the rabonim & mashpiem. I myself heard from R' Yoel Kahn Shlit”a that he is very upset about the way the Kfar chabad magazine works that there are no rabbonim who check over what is written there etc.

4)A point was raised about how come the rabbonim don't publicize enough their views about the rebbe not being moshiach. First of all it is important to point out that there was a publication called koivetz moshiach ugeula which gave out a few issues, and the view of many was expressed there (such as R' berell levin, R' baruch obulender rav of chabad in budepest, R' SB weinberg one the prominent shluchim and more) that the rebbe is not moshiach. Nevertheless I do agree agree that the rabonim should be doing more to spread their views. However 2 possible reasons can be made why they are not doing so: a) they feel that the ikar is to stop the people who are making a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach thus forming themselves into a new religion (as explained in my previous post), and it less important to stop people from making a stupid mistake, therefore they feel that by not so much stressing the issue of the rebbe being moshiach they will have a greater hashpoa on the people who are making a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach trying to get them out of there dangerous derech. b) in some cases there are people that will lose there jobs because of the influence of extreme meshechistim if they publicly & repeatability state that the rebbe is not moshiach (an example of this is R' Shmuel Zayintz who now works as a Magid shiur in the chabad yeshiva in morristown, who lost his job in another yeshiva because of certain meshistim who had an strong influence & were upset about him trying to convince certain bocharim that the rebbe is not moshiach).
Some writers questioned some of the names I brought of rabonim who don't believe that the rebbe is moshiach. I would like to respond to these Tanos:

A) R' berell levin: it was mentioned that since he published his view a few years ago he hasn't done so since. Is it a chiyuv for him to repeat his views every day? His views are already known & he obviously sees no reason to repeat them.
B) R' Leibell shapiro – when I wrote that I heard this from R' chaim Shapiro himself I meant that I also heard about his fathers views from him. With regard to him making his views public, it should be pointed out that even before I heard from R' chaim about his fathers views I already heard from a number of people about R' Leibl's views therefore it must be that he publicly has stated his views before.
C) R' chaim shapiro – it is true that he has not publicly stated his views, but he is not the type to make nay public statements. Anyone who wants however can speak to him himself & he will gladly tell you his views.
D) R' Yosef heller – it is true that his view has never been formally recorded but it is very well known & he has told it to many people & i'm sure if you contact him he'll tell it to you to.
E) R' Yechezkell Sofer – someone wrote that although it is true ehat I wrote about him but he is considered a koifer in the whole lubavitch. This is mamesh a lye, he is asked to farbreng in all none meshechist yeshivos. Just last year he farbregnd as a guest of the Va'ad talmidei hatmimim haoylomy in crown heights for all israely bocharim who were in new york for chidesh tishrei. He was recently interviewed in Kfar chabad magezine etc.
F) R' Chaim rapeport - “You are confusing the people: He does not write that the Rebbe is not the mashiach or that he may not the mashiach. He most importantly argues against david berger and also argues aganst stating that the Rebbe is mashiach presently”, if you'll take a close look at the beginning of his book that he writes quite clearly that his personal belief is that the rebbe will NOT BE MOSHIACH.

Boruch hahsem I was not challenged with regard to R' Ezra Shochat Shlit”a.

5)It was mentioned that what I wrote about the rebbe being moshiach not being an ikar by the anti meshechistim isn't true etc. a cannot help but just repeat what I wrote that I myself learnt in lubavitcher yeshivos, i'll add: most of my chaveirim are lubavitchers, and what I write is poshut what I see as the metzius.


  1. > The avoidas hashem of a true chabad chossid is learning chasidus in depth, davening beavoida & having mesirus nefesh for kiyum hatorah vehamitzvos by trying to bring each & every jew closer to it).

    Fuuny, I thought that was the avoidas HaShem of every Jew. When did Chabad take it over as their exclusive trademark?

    Reminds me of a gathering I was once at where one woman, a recent Chabad BT piped up: The Rebbe says we have to give tzedakah and be kind to others. And the rabbi given the shiur look at her and ask: as opposed to the Torah, Talmud and countless poskim?

  2. Garnel's point is actually very true, because ultimately chabad didn't come to make any new chidushim in yidishkeit, rather do preform torah & mitzvos in it's most best way. All chabad came to add (in a nutshell) was that the person should besides keeping the mitzvos in mase & having a feel in his heart for them (something which the bal shem tov emphasized) should also transform his head to something which is totally miyuchad with G-d-liness thus the stron emphases on learning chasidus.


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