Thursday, August 7, 2008

Chabad - Respects non-Chabad gedolim?

Anonymous comment to "Chabad - Chasidim - not just Litvaks - are upset":
Rabbi Oliver wrote:
"The point of the story regarding learning Tanya was not to bash any true godol ch"v (note that the Rebbe didn't refer to him by name) but to bring out the greatness of learning Tanya, that someone who has learnt it, even a beginner, attains a certain level that even a great gaon who hasn't learnt Tanya doesn't attain. So what, what's the big scandal. What's the "sinister" "evil" "grave insult" over here. It's along the lines of a clear maamar Chazal: "Each tzaddik will be scorched by the 'canopy' of his fellow." (Bava Basra 75a) See Maharsha."
The Rebbe suggested that gemara in the very begining of his apologetic. The reason why its inappropriate is because it is, simply put, an ideological argument. The Rebbe could have easily said, "we in Chabad learn Tanya. That is our way. They have theirs." But he did not do that. He justified a comment made by a man in his drunken stupor about the jealousy a gadol b'yisroel in shomayim feels toward little children because they learn Tanya and he did not. The Chazon Ish was well versed in all of Torah, nistar included. The percieved benefits of learning Tanya would be akin to the benefits of the Rebbe learning, in addition to Rambam with its nosei kailim, all Brisker Torah. I could argue, based on his tortured logic, that since Brisker Torah is the amkus d'pashtus (according to THEM, not you--you have to appreciate how utterly wrong his comment actually is!), and since the Rebbe did not learn it, then, obviously, the Rebbe is jealous of any mesivta shnook learning a Brisker Rav! I would add that the Rebbe is profoundly jealous of me as I am certain he did not touch certain brisker seforim that I have learned cover to cover. I would add that he never learned anything from the Ahavas Yisroel. For this reason, he is PROFOUNDLY jealous of, you've got it, ME. After all, in my opinion, the torah of the Ahavas Yisroel is what Chazal mean by "talmudo."

The Rebbe's argument was unfounded, poorly thought out, led only to greater dissension between him and the rest of Charedi Jewry, and, in the final analysis, silly. He basically insulted a dead gadol in public because he is idealogically driven to one point of view.
>>Also, the Rebbe had great respect for the Chazon Ish, as recorded in the sefer Mishvochei Rebbi, Mordechai Menashe Laufer, p. 126, where the Rebbe says, "He appears to have been a yerei Shomayim". Someone commented "he was also a lamdan". To this the Rebbe responded, "this too was with yiras Shomayim."
A lamdan? A Yorah shomayim? Well, let me tell you, I think I have a GREAT shevach to say about the Rebbe: He had a beard. It was nice, white and robust. In fact, the beard was worn with yiras shomayim.
Why didn't the Rebbe just say that the CI did not pish in the mikva? That, too, is a "compliment."
Gedolei Yisroel like the Chazon Ish do not NEED such so-called respect. But the Rebbe NEEDED to be respectful of gedolei yisroel. If this is your best example of respect, the Rebbe has more to worry about than his canopy being scorched by another's.
>>Anon., why not investigate a bit better before jumping to conclusions about Tzadikim, do they not also have a chezkas kashrus?
I am not jumping to conclusions, I was aware of the great "shvachos" the Rebbe heaped on the Chazon Ish before I wrote this post. I still believe the Rebbe was a reverse misnagid, so to speak--not (like the original misnagdim) to protect the holy Torah from any breaches, c"v--but the misseh kind, the kind which hated because they believed their way was superior. And that notion of ethnocentrism and superiority is precisely what the Rebbe advocated in this apologetic.
======================
p.s. Yoni suggested viewing the video of the Rebbe discussing sleeping in a Sukkah. The transcript appears on the blog - Emet/Truth

16 comments :

  1. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was a brilliant person. However must every remark, including off-the-cuff remarks, by a great Talmid Chacham or by a renouned Chassidishe rebbe be taken as serious and omnisignificant?

    Surely they're allowed to banter and be good humoured and even to poke fun innocently and not maliciously at those in the other camp- to be good-naturedly a bit "chauvinistic" in favour of their own group.

    Eliyahu

    ReplyDelete
  2. Sure, I guess such a reading is plausible. Of course, all the enormous hatred that Chabad and its Rebbe had toward those who disagreed with them--particularly Rav Shach--would be washed away if they would so charitably read Rav Shach's playful banter and cute little ditties about Chabad and its Rebbe in his michtavim.

    But the Rebbe was not joking, and his intent was not innocent. He maligned a mes--and acknowledged gadol hador. For purely idealogical reasons. It would be folly to believe the Rebbe looked at anyone who did not learn Toras Chabad as a complete, ehrlich Jew. He, obviuously, was not tolerant of the approach of others. Yet he DEMANDED the greatest respect for his views. If you have not yet seen the video of him yelling at Rav Kahana, z"l, about those bnei Torah who could not fathom the Rebbe's dismissal of the chiyuv to sleep in a sukka (or eat shalosh seudas) you would see a level of hostility and wrath for their refusal to accept Chabad minhagim.

    As far as the Rebbe's brilliance is concerned, it is (1) not germane to this discussion and (2) hotly disputed. The Rebbe is known to be a massive baki but analysis was never his strong point. In fact, this justification for this drunkard's hatred of those who do not learn Toras Chabad is illustrative of that.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Sure, I guess such a reading is plausible. Of course, all the enormous hatred that Chabad and its Rebbe had toward those who disagreed with them--particularly Rav Shach--would be washed away if they would so charitably read Rav Shach's playful banter and cute little ditties about Chabad and its Rebbe in his michtavim.

    But the Rebbe was not joking, and his intent was not innocent. He maligned a mes--and acknowledged gadol hador. For purely idealogical reasons. It would be folly to believe the Rebbe looked at anyone who did not learn Toras Chabad as a complete, ehrlich Jew. He, obviuously, was not tolerant of the approach of others. Yet he DEMANDED the greatest respect for his views. If you have not yet seen the video of him yelling at Rav Kahana, z"l, about those bnei Torah who could not fathom the Rebbe's dismissal of the chiyuv to sleep in a sukka (or eat shalosh seudas) you would see a level of hostility and wrath for their refusal to accept Chabad minhagim which was hardly surpassed by Rav Shach when he described his findings concerning the Rebbe and Chabad.

    As far as the Rebbe's brilliance is concerned, it is (1) not germane to this discussion and (2) hotly disputed. The Rebbe is known to be a massive baki but analysis was never his strong point. In fact, this justification for this drunkard's hatred of those who do not learn Toras Chabad is illustrative of that.

    ReplyDelete
  4. The man was not "in a drunken stupor." And it was not just any old man, it was Reb Folye Kahn, who was a great Chossid and baal mesiras nefesh, translation: He risked his life regularly in Soviet Russia to keep basic Yiddishkeit alive. You know what that means? Torture. Torture of one's family. One's wife becoming an agunah. So Jewish children won't shmad zich to communism. You ever had this sort of mesiras nefesh?

    If you want to dismiss the story as "ideological," good luck to you. The Rebbe is not interest in ideology and relativism, but in revealing emes. You obviously don't have much of a sense of the greatness of the sefer of Tanya, so you equate it to everything else. But for those who sense what Tanya is, and have read even a handful of the statements of the Rebbeim concerning the greatness of Tanya, there's nothing really remarkable about the story.

    And s I said, the Rebbe's words have a clear basis in that maamar Chazal.

    How did you know (and are certain!) that the Rebbe did not learn a certain sefer? Wow, you must have some inside information. Every talmid chochom who spoke to the Rebbe was blown away by his knowledge of kol haTorah kula, but you seem to know something they didn't.

    I established through my quote that the Rebbe DID have respect for the Chazon Ish; thus, the point of the story was not to disparage the Chazon Ish, but to show the greatness of the Tanya.

    The rest of your post is so crude it doesn't deserve a response. Nu, guess you'll find out when you reach olam ho'emes exactly what's what. Boruch Hashem I have a Tzadik who reveals it to me before I get there, so I can be smart while I'm still alive; as is known, one can no longer do Teshuvah and Torah and Mitzvos in olom ha'emes.

    ReplyDelete
  5. >>The man was not "in a drunken stupor." And it was not just any old man, it was Reb Folye Kahn, who was a great Chossid and baal mesiras nefesh, translation: He risked his life regularly in Soviet Russia to keep basic Yiddishkeit alive. You know what that means? Torture. Torture of one's family. One's wife becoming an agunah. So Jewish children won't shmad zich to communism. You ever had this sort of mesiras nefesh?

    And the Gaon the Rebbe maliciously spurned was the Chazon Ish, who did more for klal yisroel and Hashem than Foyleh Kahan would ever dream of.

    >>If you want to dismiss the story as "ideological," good luck to you.

    I don't understand what this means. I made it clear that the Rebbe insulted a gadol of a generation preceding his on purely idealogical grounds, and that such a posture was improper. I cannot dismiss what the Rebbe did.

    >>The Rebbe is not interest in ideology and relativism, but in revealing emes.

    Emes to whom? Talmudo include Tanya? That's not emes. That's opinion, at best.

    >>You obviously don't have much of a sense of the greatness of the sefer of Tanya, so you equate it to everything else.

    Not to everything else. I hope you actually read my comment. I equated with books which you apparently have no familiarity with on the Rambam, which the Rebbe probably did not learn.

    >>But for those who sense what Tanya is, and have read even a handful of the statements of the Rebbeim concerning the greatness of Tanya, there's nothing really remarkable about the story.

    There is. He supported motzi shem rah on a meis who just so happened to be a gadol hador because he insists that talmudo meansTanya, and that even a gadol hador familiar with kol hatorah kulah would be jealous of little children reading it (I can hardly use a word like learning something as deep as Tanya on children) would jealous of them.

    >>And s I said, the Rebbe's words have a clear basis in that maamar Chazal.

    No, it has no basis whatsoever.
    The Rebbe was applying it incorrectly. The Chazal does not state that one would be burned by another's canopy because that person is learning Tanya. The Rebbe added that part in.

    >>How did you know (and are certain!) that the Rebbe did not learn a certain sefer?

    I think its kind of obvious that he did not learn seforim written by "misnagdim." I can base it on the fact that while he does quote the Rogachover, he does not quote R' Chaim.

    >>Every talmid chochom who spoke to the Rebbe was blown away by his knowledge of kol haTorah kula, but you seem to know something they didn't.

    Wow, and now you are getting to my point. Chabad reports that every talmid chochom who spoke to the Rebbe was blown away by his knowledge of kol hatorah kulah, even though he did not learn seforim by R' Chaim and the Brisker Rav. I could, based on the same maamar Chazal, interpret the Rebbe's same chazal that talmudo includes Brisker Torah, and since the Rebbe did not Brisker Torah, he is jealous of every child reading the same. I would not do that because its an incredibly stupid. Yet the Rebbe did the same thing to a gadol of a generation preceding his whose every contemporary was blown away by his knowledge of kol hatora kula--including nistar--and yet he, of all people, is jealous of a kid? And the Rebbe, then, would not be jealous of me or anyone else who learns seforim who could not, did not, or would not learn (even though others may maintain that those seforim are integral to learning?). Don't you see its the same EXACT argument?

    >>I established through my quote that the Rebbe DID have respect for the Chazon Ish;

    No, he did not. Saying that a gadol hador is a yoreh shomayim is an insult.

    >>thus, the point of the story was not to disparage the Chazon Ish, but to show the greatness of the Tanya.

    One has nothing to do with the other. That being said, he disparaged the Chazon Ish on both occassions. To illustrate, you could not possible stomach my assertion that the Rebbe is jealous of me not because I learned seforim he never touched (this could include seforim which were not published in his time), which are, in my opinion, within the rubric of Chazal's meaning of "talmudo." You would not either tolerate an assertion that the Rebbe was a Yoreh Shomayim or had a nice beard. Its a put off, its insulting, and yet you have no problem when the Rebbe did the same!

    >>The rest of your post is so crude it doesn't deserve a response.

    Hillarious.


    >>Nu, guess you'll find out when you reach olam ho'emes exactly what's what.

    And you will, too.


    >>Boruch Hashem I have a Tzadik who reveals it to me before I get there, so I can be smart while I'm still alive; as is known, one can no longer do Teshuvah and Torah and Mitzvos in olom ha'emes.

    Why, because the REBBE said so (do you know where the mishna is)? The Mishna applies to all Jews--including those who mistakenly stick to the words of someone whose hashkafos were off. If you think that Tanya is any deeper than than the Shla or Kisvei Ari, that's your personal prejudice, not a fact. And the Rebbe's assertions concerning the Tanya don't change that opinion into a fact, either. His "teachings" may be a path toward olam habah, but its only one. I have bigger tzadikim and bigger talmidei chachomim from earlier generations teaching me how to lead my life. Thankfully, that would include not writing insulting comments about the Chazon Ish. Your Rebbe, unfortunately, did not have the benefit of such an education. And in the olam haemes, I am confident we will both see whose canopy is scorched by whose.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I've made my point. The Rebbe did not mention names in that sicha, because the Rebbe wanted to avoid saying something disrespectful. The Rebbe spoke, or rather, referred to the statement of the Chossid, who spoke about what a Jew lacks in olam ha'emes without learning Tanya. That was the point.

    The story that I quoted from the sefer Mishvochei Rebbe was where someone started to speak critically of the Chazon Ish, and the Rebbe cut him off and praised the Chazon Ish as learning Torah with yiras Shomayim. Sounds very respectful to me.

    And as for your certainty that you, anon., know better what happens in olam ha'emes than the Rebbe: The Rebbe would regularly give brochos for health and answers to go against the advice of doctors, e.g., not to perform an operation when they said to do so, and all the doctors would be amazed at the miraculous recovery of the person. There are countless such stories. Yet you, Mr. anon., are more familiar with spiritual realities than the Rebbe. Got it.

    ReplyDelete
  7. >>And as for your certainty that you, anon., know better what happens in olam ha'emes than the Rebbe: The Rebbe would regularly give brochos for health and answers to go against the advice of doctors, e.g., not to perform an operation when they said to do so, and all the doctors would be amazed at the miraculous recovery of the person. There are countless such stories. Yet you, Mr. anon., are more familiar with spiritual realities than the Rebbe. Got it.

    First you ar ean extremely negative person. Second, it is clear that you did not read my comment. I wrote that I am acquainted with greater tzadikim from earlier generations about the realities of the olam hames. So you can keep the teachings of the Rebbe, that's fine, unlike you or the Rebbe, I do not dare put down another Jew's path toward Hashem, but the fact is that if its a connection with Tzadikim you are bragging about, then plenty of Jews are connected to far greater tzadikim (unless the Rebbe was greater than Moshe Rabbeinu, the Rambam, etc., which is something you would like posit). So I would not gloat about it.

    I am aware of the stories concerning the Rebbe. I am also aware of the propensity of Chabad chassidim, who in their zeal and undying love for their Rebbe, to fluff things up. Furthermore, plenty of great people gave such advice--the Chazon Ish included--and yet we all know what the Rebbe said about him.

    I would reiterate that stating a gadol b'yisroel is a yoreh shomayim is to diminish him. I could wax poetically about the Rebbe's beard, his beautiful yiddish, and yet, as you have demonstrated in the tone of your posts, you would find it insulting. But what is curious is that a chussid--not doubt a Mr. as you would like to frame me--would insult the Chazon Ish to the Rebbe in the first place. To paraphrase, only in Chabad. . .

    ReplyDelete
  8. I'm sorry but you have obviously never looked too extenevly at the rebbe's sforim, Lekutei Sichos. R' Chaim is quoted NUMERES times over there, and thefore saying that the rebbe didn't learn Brisker Torah is a tottal lye. the same go's whith regard to what was written that altough the rebbe was a big boki, annalises wasn't from his strong points - only someone who hasn't learnt LS can say that. incedently i heard from a reliable source, that r' nochum partovitz zt"l, someone who is reknown for his Derech Halimud in Oimek Hapshat, held in reggard very highly the new derrech halimud that the rebbe begun in the learning of rashi on torah (which anyone who has learnt LS would be familiar with).

    ReplyDelete
  9. Oh, sure, anon., so all the stories of the Rebbe giving miraculous brochos are one big hoax, some sort of mass conspiracy. You sound like the atheist who was at Krias Yam Suf and explained that it was a freak of nature.

    I will reiterate for the last time, that in context, the Rebbe was praising the Chazon Ish in the face of criticisms. If you persist on viewing everything negatively, I cannot help that.

    ReplyDelete
  10. To show how much anon. assumes about that which s/he is clearly ignorant, the Rebbe refers to Chidushei Rabeinu Chaim in Likutei Sichos vol. 29, p. 392, and vol. 26, p. 69.

    ReplyDelete
  11. B"H
    Dear Yoni
    You write:
    "
    He, obviuously, was not tolerant of the approach of others. Yet he DEMANDED the greatest respect for his views. If you have not yet seen the video of him yelling at Rav Kahana, z"l, about those bnei Torah who could not fathom the Rebbe's dismissal of the chiyuv to sleep in a sukka (or eat shalosh seudas) you would see a level of hostility and wrath for their refusal to accept Chabad minhagim."

    see this video of the Rebbe with R. Simcha Ashlag the grandson of the Baal haSulam especially 2 min 35 sec into the video the Rebbe says the opposite of what you so hastily conclude.:

    http://www.youtube.com/
    watch?v=S6otDPrA1t4

    ReplyDelete
  12. "He, obviuously, was not tolerant of the approach of others."

    A total lie. The Rebbe was tolerant of the approach of others, and always encouraged them in their derech, saying nahara, nahara upashtei.

    "If you have not yet seen the video of him yelling at Rav Kahana, z"l, about those bnei Torah who could not fathom the Rebbe's dismissal of the chiyuv to sleep in a sukka (or eat shalosh seudas) you would see a level of hostility and wrath for their refusal to accept Chabad minhagim."

    What totally twisted nonsense. Actually, the Rebbe had full respect for the custom of other groups to sleep in sukkah, and never ever dismissed it, ch"v. He always said about all other groups' minhogim: "nahara, nahara upashtei." On that occasion the Rebbe was upset at those who sought (and still seek) to DISCREDIT the Rebbeim of Chabad for following the minhag not to sleep in sukkah, as if they are violating Shulchan Aruch ch"v, when they have their halachic reasons for this custom. The Rebbe pointed out then that Litvishe gedolim throughout the generations had peaceful, friendly interactions with the Rebbeim of Chabad, and certainly never spoke against them in this way, and that those who promote this question are simply introducing flames of machlokes for no reason!

    ReplyDelete
  13. >>A total lie. The Rebbe was tolerant of the approach of others, and always encouraged them in their derech, saying nahara, nahara upashtei.

    YOu have been caught already on twisintg the truth, and here you are clearly lying. The Rebbe clearly expressed that those who did not learn Tanya are missing something upstairs. That is intolerance toward other people. [edit]


    >>What totally twisted nonsense.

    I know, what the Rebbe said was totally [edited] And you are twisting the above passage too, as we will show.

    >>Actually, the Rebbe had full respect for the custom of other groups to sleep in sukkah, and never ever dismissed it, ch"v.

    This was not the issue. The issue was the Rebbe's incredible [edited] toward those who thought he was wrong--calling them, for example, messengers of the Satan, and, in another instance, accusing the gadol hador of not wearing kosher tefillin.

    >>He always said about all other groups' minhogim: "nahara, nahara upashtei." On that occasion the Rebbe was upset at those who sought (and still seek) to DISCREDIT the Rebbeim of Chabad for following the minhag not to sleep in sukkah, as if they are violating Shulchan Aruch ch"v, when they have their halachic reasons for this custom.

    The halachic dispensation for not sleeping in a sukkah and the so called minhag not to sleep in one are two completely different things. One is enshrined by halacha and the other is shtus, hevel, and was never supported by anyone.

    >>The Rebbe pointed out then that Litvishe gedolim throughout the generations had peaceful, friendly interactions with the Rebbeim of Chabad, and certainly never spoke against them in this way, and that those who promote this question are simply introducing flames of machlokes for no reason!

    The rebbe [edited] had nothing to do with any charedi group. And the friendly interactions with chabad stopped because the rebbe refused to have anything to with them, ostensibly because he wanted absolute power.

    ReplyDelete
  14. >>Oh, sure, anon., so all the stories of the Rebbe giving miraculous brochos are one big hoax, some sort of mass conspiracy. You sound like the atheist who was at Krias Yam Suf and explained that it was a freak of nature.

    The Chazon Ish has many more stories like this, so does Rav Shach. Your attempts to look at me negatively so that you can continue believing your shtus and hevel is your business, but suggesting that I am like an atheist is laughable and demonstrates your desparation.

    >>I will reiterate for the last time, that in context, the Rebbe was praising the Chazon Ish in the face of criticisms. If you persist on viewing everything negatively, I cannot help that.

    He was belittling him. Reiterating cheap apologetics and cheap spin is not ever going to change facts.

    ReplyDelete
  15. >>To show how much anon. assumes about that which s/he is clearly ignorant, the Rebbe refers to Chidushei Rabeinu Chaim in Likutei Sichos vol. 29, p. 392, and vol. 26, p. 69.

    Wow, TWO PIECES. Clearly, he was familiar with ALL brisker torah![edited]

    ReplyDelete
  16. Chaim Moshe BergsteinMay 12, 2017 at 8:37 PM

    i have always said that your blog is not daas nor is it Torah.
    it's like the huff and puff of the big bad wolf.
    The Rebbe had differences with the Chazon Ish on the inyan of mikva. i don't recall any kind of derision. i know from a yechidus of an ish ne'emon that the Rebbe held the chazon Ish to be a neshama from hundreds of years earlier, meaning greatness. He never demeaned him even while he disagreed and defended the minhag of the Rebbe Rashab. your statements are meant to demean. i don't like them any more than those who demean the chazon Ish in Chabad.
    i have seen your rants here and they are based on conjecture with no basis.
    The Rebbe was boky in the Reb chaim's words . did he know them baal peh like he knew the teshuvos of the Chasam Sofer? i don't know.but he knew all the Toros of his grandfather the Tzemach Tzedek if not verbatim then close to it. Do you know 1000 teshuvos baal peh?That he was familiar with all the rishonim was obvious to whomever spoke to him in the 40s. he knew many seforim and their tochen including their hakdomos-from Rav Zevin.The Rebbe was an illuy and by age 12 did not need a teacher . he knew kabbalah as well as his father studied these texts with him.
    why must you demean someone you don't know? i heard astounding things from gedoley Yisroel about him. maybe not your gedolim but the Naroler Rav and Rav Grubner ztl held of his learning as well as his tzidkus. so did Rav piekarsky and the biggest boky in our generation Rav Hirshprung. Rav Boruch Ber when he met the Rebbe told him stay with us-i'm mavtiach you that you will be the godol hador!So said Reb shaya Shimonovitz who was there.
    point being, stick to criticizing issues not people. then maybe there will be at least daas

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.