Wednesday, August 27, 2008

Secular terrorize Chareidim

YNET reported

Ultra-Orthodox Jews picnicking in park located in secular neighborhood of Jerusalem suffer verbal violence at hands of residents who blame them for 'taking up entire playground,' force them to leave

The struggle between secular and Orthodox Jews in the capital has reached the public parks. A family of ultra-Orthodox Jews attempting to spend a relaxed day in a park located in the secular Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hakerem were driven away from the area by a number of residents.

The family arrived at the park with its children in tow on Monday evening, and attempted to have a picnic.

The moment we arrived and sat on the benches at the entrance to the park, an elderly woman arrived and told us it wasn't nice of us to take up the entire playground for her children," one family member recounted.

"We didn't want to fight with her, but other people began arriving and yelling at us. One woman sat next to my brother-in-law so he would get up. The secular Jews surrounding us began arguing over whether or not we should leave. Some said no and some said yes."

The chaos upset the family. "The children began to cry because they were frightened by all of the yelling around us, so we went to the other end of the park where we thought we would have peace, but they just followed us," said Moti, one of the family members.

He added that when they attempted to light a small grill to prepare food they were told to put it out immediately, but even when they did so, the yelling continued. The family then decided to leave the park.[...]

The Jerusalem Municipality responded by stating, "We strongly object to all cases of racism and violence. We hold educational programs aiming to encourage coexistence and a dialogue among the different sectors of society in the city."

27 comments :

  1. Unfortunately this is probably a backlash to all the nonsense surrounding the 'modesty patrol' and their attack on the woman. This incident may be the "last straw" of their tolerance for the people in Beit HaKarem. Their outrage is obvious. It's so sad.

    Whatever happened to "a light unto the nations"?

    It may take Hizbolla to bring the yidden together again.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Neshama said...

    Unfortunately this is probably a backlash to all the nonsense surrounding the 'modesty patrol' and their attack on the woman. This incident may be the "last straw" of their tolerance for the people in Beit HaKarem. Their outrage is obvious. It's so sad.
    ====
    This has nothing to do with the modesty patrol - the secular have always despised and feared the chareidim.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Yes there has always been friction between the chareidim and the chilonim but for a long time they could at least occupy the same park, albeit on separate sides. While there is no doubt that there is much the secular side does to antagonize the sensibilities of the charieidim, remember that chilonim who don't associate with them only see them in a handful of ways: rioting and ranting. Not knowing anything more about them, is it any wonder they drove off this chareidi family before it had a chance to throw rocks at them and call them prutzos?

    ReplyDelete
  4. Not knowing anything more about them, is it any wonder they drove off this chareidi family before it had a chance to throw rocks at them and call them prutzos?
    ============
    This is utter nonsense. A family with little kids comes to a park and the neighbors are trembling in fear that they will throw stones?!

    ReplyDelete
  5. The Satmar Rebbe foresight is Plainly Illustrarted here the only thing the STATE OF ISRAEL accomplished is a state of Disrepair.

    ReplyDelete
  6. There is no need to refer to recent events (e.g. "modesty patrol" scandals) to explain the hatred felt by many secular Israeli's for Orthodox, esp. chareidi, Jews.

    Unfortunately, such sentiments and behavior has been commonplace for many years in Israel. See Noah Efron's excellent book, "Real Jews", for a detailed discussion of this conflict.

    At the same time, it seems to me (as an American) that the Chareidim in Israel could do a better job on the way they present themselves to the general population. The constant demonstrating/rioting/burning stuff in the streets provides a great deal of ammunition to our ideological opponents. It tends to push moderate secular Israelis in the direction of the most aggressive secularists.

    ReplyDelete
  7. > This is utter nonsense. A family with little kids comes to a park and the neighbors are trembling in fear that they will throw stones?!

    If all you know about this particular ethnic group is that they riot and scream, if all you hear from their leaders on television are demands on other communities in Israel to conform to their standards, yes you'd probably be a bit annoyed.

    I'm NOT justifying the behaviour. I'm simply stating that I can figure out a few reasons for it.

    ReplyDelete
  8. This happens to me ALL the time in America. I am constantly being told that "my children are taking up too much space" (in the aisles at the grocery store) or that I myself "take up too much room, dressed like a gypsy" (headscarf and long skirt).

    I cannot count how many times I have been rammed with shopping carts hard and intentionally or how many times my children have been forcefully knocked off of course without an apology.

    Israel is also Galut and with a million Russian Goyim, there is less Anti Semitism in many American neighborhoods than there is in Israel.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous said...
    "This happens to me ALL the time in America. ... I cannot count how many times I have been rammed with shopping carts hard and intentionally or how many times my children have been forcefully knocked off of course without an apology."

    Where are you shopping, lady? I mean, yeah, American anti-semitism is real, but people are ramming you with shopping carts? That is not normal behavior in any of the neighborhoods I've lived in.

    Neither I or my wife (we both look very chareidi) have experienced this kind of behavior. Nor have I heard complaints in the community.

    Isolated incidents of anti-semitic behavior? Yes. Institutionalized anti-semitism (media bias, employer bias, etc.)? Yes. Anti-semitic mobs wielding shopping carts? NO.

    Honestly, I know that some people will take offense at this, but either you are shopping in very weird places or you are doing something that attracts crazies.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Lazera said:
    The constant demonstrating/rioting/burning stuff in the streets provides a great deal of ammunition to our ideological opponents.

    Why didn't anyone tell Lazera that the above has nothing to do with hiloni hatred? What I said is that the modesty squad is part of exactly what Lazera wrote, but my comment was not understood this way and quickly denounced. All of the nasty behavior of extremists, especially beating a woman who left their way of life , spraying bleach on women's clothing, pushing women to the floor of buses, is igniting hatred in decent people, haredi and hiloni. Not all non-frum Israelis are hiloni.

    This extreme behavior, very opposite the inner essence of the Torah, is ugly and repulsive. If you cannot see the comparison with the zealots of Islam, perhaps one needs to use some eyewash!

    Don't you realize that the way we treat people, any people, is how we are judged in Shomayim. Why so much hatred spewing forth? If we treat "people that don't follow our ways" in such an abominable way, what do you think this tells the goyim of the world? If we don't respect each other, why should they respect us? It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The Israelis of the 50's, 60's and 70's used to be so sweet, albeit strong, loving and accepting of everyone - and that was why

    ReplyDelete
  11. "Honestly, I know that some people will take offense at this, but either you are shopping in very weird places or you are doing something that attracts crazies."

    Costco or Whole Foods in a city with a large Orthodox Jewish population are not "very weird places".

    And wearing a scarf, long skirt and long sleeves in the summer should not be something "that attracts crazies", although these DO make a woman a standout as either a Jew or a Muslim.

    Anti Semitism in the US is very real and getting worse along with the economy. You only need to read Vos iz neias to see the daily incidents of Anti Semitism in America.

    A few years ago our relatives from France came to the US because of rising anti Semitism in Paris. Now they would like to go back and bring us with them because they feel it has gotten worse in the US than it is in France now.

    I don't think that we can always "blame the victims" for causing Anti Semitism.

    The notion in and of itself is, Anti Semitism.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Anonymous, you really need to move to a different city.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Neshama said...
    Lazera said:
    "Why didn't anyone tell Lazera that the above has nothing to do with hiloni hatred?"

    Probably because I had already said so in that very same comment.

    Neshama, your comment was criticized because you stated, without qualification, that the offensive chiloni behavior was "probably a backlash" for the recent "modesty squad" nonsense.

    The problem with your comment is, (1) it assumes that such chiloni behavior is new, and (2) your comment implied that their behavior was a reasonable reaction to current events.

    Your first assumption is clearly wrong, such discriminatory behavior has been commonplace in Israel for many years now.

    Your implication, that the chiloni behavior was reasonable or even understandable is fundamentally wrong. There is no possible excuse for such behavior by civilized people.

    We all have our fair share of prejudices, justified or not, against other groups. But, being civilized, we don't allow our prejudices to justify bad behavior.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous said...
    "A few years ago our relatives from France came to the US because of rising anti Semitism in Paris. Now they would like to go back and bring us with them because they feel it has gotten worse in the US than it is in France now."

    If you think this is true then you are sadly deluded. France, and Europe in general, is seeing a tremendous upsurge in anti-semitism. This up-surge is continuing and, unfortunately, shows no sign of slowing down.

    In America, outside of various very left-wing "hot-houses" (universities, "inner-city" areas, and similar), open anti-semitism continues to be socially unacceptable. It still exists, obviously, but is rarely openly expressed.

    "I don't think that we can always "blame the victims" for causing Anti Semitism.

    The notion in and of itself is, Anti Semitism."


    It isn't anti-semitic to wonder why a specific Jew keeps running into anti-semitic violence when others don't. Perhaps you live in a particularly anti-semitic part of the U.S. that I am not familiar with.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Lazera wrote:

    "In America, outside of various very left-wing "hot-houses" (universities, "inner-city" areas, and similar), open anti-semitism continues to be socially unacceptable. It still exists, obviously, but is rarely openly expressed."

    This is from the ADL:

    "Anti-Semitic incidents in the United States have reached their highest level in nine years, according to newly released statistics from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL)." The League's annual Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents, reported an increase of 17 percent".

    Lazera wrote:

    "Perhaps you live in a particularly anti-semitic part of the U.S. that I am not familiar with."

    Let's look at the most recent ADL audit for the NY area:

    "Anti-Semitic Incidents Up 23% in NY State in 2007
    New York, NY, March 5, 2008 …

    Anti-Semitic incidents -- including threats, vandalism, harassment and other acts of hatred directed at Jews -- increased dramatically in New York State in 2007, despite declining nationally for the third consecutive year, according to the Anti-Defamation League's (ADL) 2007 Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents, issued today. New York State continued to rank first in the nation for anti-Semitic incidents, with nearly one in four of them occurring here.

    Long Island experienced the most dramatic increase, with 118 reported anti-Semitic incidents, up from 74 in 2006 – a 59% increase. New York City saw 193 anti-Semitic incidents reported in 2007, up from 177 incidents the prior year – a 9% increase.

    A total of 351 incidents were reported across New York State in 2007, a 23% increase from the previous year. Of those, 112 were incidents of harassment and 239 were incidents of vandalism. The Audit identifies both criminal and non-criminal incidents of harassment and intimidation, including distribution of hate literature, threats and slurs. "

    Where do you live that you have been fortunate enough to be unaffected by the frightening growth of Anti Semitism plaguing our American Jewish communities?

    I WOULD like to move there.

    ReplyDelete
  16. South Fallsburg, NY - Racist Graffiti Found Near Vacation Area of Orthodox Jews


    South Fallsburg, NY - Fallsburg police removed anti-Semitic graffiti today on a road in South Fallsburg.

    Police found swastikas and nooses drawn on Westwood Drive near summer bungalows where orthodox Jews vacation.

    “It was just somebody venting,” Chief Simmie Williams said.

    But Rabbi Yakov Barros said the matter should be investigated fully.

    “Whenever something like this is found anywhere, whether against Jewish or African American people, people need to be educated about it and it has to be publicized,” Barros said. “A Holocaust survivor was walking down that road and they said it was very painful. It is must be horrible to them. When they see this it is really a bitter feeling, a tragic feeling.”

    ReplyDelete
  17. Canada - Hasidic Jew from France Assaulted While Walking His Father to Shul
    Canada - A Hasidic Jew a French tourist was hit in the face while walking to a synagogue in Ste. Agathe, the incident is one of a number of attacks this summer on observant Jews in the Laurentians.

    http://www.vosizneias.com/19762/2008/08/27/canada-hasidic-jew-from-france-assaultid-while-walking-his-father-to-shul/

    ReplyDelete
  18. Lauderdale Lakes, FL - Holocaust Survivor Finds Hate Words Marked At His Home

    http://www.vosizneias.com/19639/2008/08/23/lauderdale-lakes-fl-holocaust-survivor-finds-hate-words-marked-at-his-home/

    Sandy Springs, GA - Swastika Painted Near Jewish Day School

    http://www.vosizneias.com/19565/2008/08/21/sandy-springs-ga-swastika-painted-near-jewish-day-school/

    These are only from this past week.

    Two synagogues in my neighborhood were also recently destroyed by arsonists. We would like to move, but where is it better? Brooklyn and Lakewood have both recently experienced a growing number of frightening Anti Semitic incidents.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I'm not exactly sure what Anonymous is attempting to prove.

    Does anti-semitism exist in America? Yes, we all acknowledge this. Certain population groups in particular (African-Americans, college professors, etc.), are known to have very high levels of anti-semitism.

    Is it on the rise? Perhaps. Your (unsourced) ADL statistics are not that convincing for several reasons.

    (A) When you are dealing with small numbers, then any small change is a dramatic change in percentage. Thus, if there were only one anti-semitic incident a year in a certain town, then one year there are two such incidents, we've seen a 100% increase! So the existence of an "increase of 17 percent" of anti-semitic incidents is not necessarily a big deal.

    (B) What qualifies as an incident? When people get into a fight, they will frequently throw around ethnic slurs. If the target is a Jew, this does not automatically render the incident "anti-semitic." Thus, not every threat, harassment, or even act of vandalism is necessarily a genuine act of anti-semitism. Some of it is just petty crimes and general nastiness.

    (C) We have to know exactly how the ADL collects this information. As any educated reader knows, the very act of collecting statistics has an effect on the numbers. As an organization gets better at collecting the statistics (or the various reporting agencies get better at reporting) the numbers automatically rise. This is not due to a real increase but to better reporting. (Better reporting can also result from political or financial motivations.) Such increases can also result from subtle changes in the statistical methodology or in the definitions used.

    (D) The ADL has a vested interest in reporting higher rates of anti-semitism.

    (E) Perhaps most important of all, as you increase the number of recognizable Jews, you will automatically increase the number of anti-semitic incidents. What we really need to know is, what is the rate of anti-semitic incidents per thousand Jews?

    All of this aside, even if we take the ADL numbers at their face value, there is not much actually being said here. For example, the second report you quote says that anti-semitic incidents have been "declining nationally for the third consecutive year." So what are we to make of that?

    As for New York State, New York City accounts for more than half the incidents. New York City is noted for (1) a heavy "inner-city" population, (2) strong liberal tendencies, and (3) numerous Jews. Much the same is true for Long Island, though less "inner-city" (there is some).

    Finally, what are really talking about? New York is a very large state. A total of 351 incidents, of which most were vandalism (probably graffiti for the most part). If we remove the incidents caused by ongoing conflicts in neighborhoods such as Crown Heights, we aren't left with much. You're more likely to get hurt or killed in an "ordinary" crime than in an "anti-semitic incident."

    Meanwhile, Jews are fleeing their homes in Europe because of rising anti-semitism.

    The world is facing a very serious problem. Islam may well be the dominant religion in Europe in a few decades (maybe sooner). Thus far, the left-wing European states have been unable or unwilling to defend themselves. The fall of European liberalism wouldn't be that bad a thing, except that what will take its place will probably be far worse, either a radical Islamic Europe or a radical fascist Europe, if the Europeans ever decide to fight back. Either way, the Jews there will be in deep trouble.

    It is likely that these changes will negatively affect Jews all over the world, including America. This is doubly true if the American left-wing is successful in its attempt to make the U.S. follow Europe down the path of national suicide.

    But, in the meantime, we Jews in the U.S. should be deeply grateful that Hashem has provided us with this truly unique country, which has provided us with a true oasis in the exile. As Rav Schwab once wrote:

    [The U.S. is] the only country where Jews were never burned at the stake or perched in ghettos and where they were not made to wear a badge of shame. Here in America, the Books of the Torah were never burned or censored, and the freedom to teach and practice the laws of G-d was never curtailed or questioned.

    Again, Anonymous, I don't know why you have had such negative experiences. But they are not representative of the broader Jewish experience in the U.S.

    P.S. Canada is NOT part of the U.S. and tends to follow European patterns. This is doubly true in Quebec.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous says:
    "standout as either a Jew or a *Muslim*"

    "relatives from France"

    Like Lazera, I haven't heard anyone in my community (I'm in the NY area) complain of any increase in antisemitic incidents.

    Anonymous, are you Sephardi?

    I wonder: has there been an upsurge in incidents specifically toward Sephardi Jews as opposed to Ashkenazi? Perhaps the increased anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment in America has overflowed to dark-skinned Jews who may be mistaken as Arabs.

    Another hypothesis: There is a general sentiment in some circles (e.g. environmentalists) against large families. The comments about the children taking too much space might come from that source instead of anti-semitism.

    ReplyDelete
  21. On a parenthetical note, I spent a shabbos in Paris a couple of years ago. The fear and sense of unbelonging that typified the attitude of the young local Jewish college students I stayed with was an eye-opener for me. Nowhere in America have I seen that level of negativity about the place of Jews in their host country.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Interesting that anonymous mentions the Chasidim in Quebec, Canada because I recall those incidents in the news.
    What makes it interesting is that Quebec, unlike the rest of Canada, has a dominant ethnic group (French) who are known for their unfriendliness to all other ethnic groups, Jews included.

    Well what do you expect? Look at their European cousins!

    The Chasidim, through their dress and custom are seen as ultimate outsiders. Forget speaking the hated English language. They speak Yiddish! It also doesn't help that the Chasidim in Montreal have been pushing their weight around, much to the consternation of both the local English and French populations.

    Are their incidents in the rest of Canada? Sure, we get the occasional cemetary or shul grafiti, or a smashed window or two but I'll take that over thousands of rioting Arab youths burning cars and turning entire 'burbs into hellholes, like what happens in Paris.

    Paristinians, get it?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Lazera -
    "problem with your comment is, (1) it assumes that such chiloni behavior is new, and (2) your comment implied that their behavior was a reasonable reaction to current events."

    My reply: In no way do I assume such behavior is new, nor do I think it is a reasonable reaction - such a shame .... that was your reaction.

    It would be most interesting to parallel the growing animosity of the not-yet observant Israelis vs. the extreme fanaticism of the so-called religious, and see the escalation on both sides. An independent observation!

    And I doubt such uncalled-for extreme behavior will endear those who are not yet fully observant! Who would want to learn about religion from such a group of extremists?

    Those people in the park were hysterical about the "possible" disintegration of what they know as a peaceful and pleasant (like the frum family said) area in their neighborhood (not in Geula, and I guess that is why the frum family went there, to find a peaceful & pleasant place, again as they also said). What they read, and watch on TV, of the "constant demonstrating/rioting/burning stuff in the streets" (which Lazera reminded us about) has them scared.

    They were hysterical because they were afraid of the violence.

    I believe the Torah tells us, that Hashem can tolerate (look away from) the non-observance of mitzvos when the people are able to maintain peace and kindness among each other.

    That's what I understood from the incident.
    I think I've covered sufficient points.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "Anonymous, I don't know why you have had such negative experiences. But they are not representative of the broader Jewish experience in the U.S."

    Two synagogues in my neighborhood (Miami Beaach) have been destroyed by arsonists in the past few months. One was a Chabad and the other a Litvish kollel.

    Rabbi Mann (Chabad) was beaten up a few weeks ago as he walked to shul Shabbos morning.

    Rabbi Fishweicker was also recently beaten up in North Miami.

    A group of Beis Chaya Aidel girls in Hallandale were intentially (according to witnesses) run over last Dec 24. Another group of Bais Yaakov girls in North Miami was run over by a driver who first motioned them to go and then hit the gas.

    These incidents are happening in broad daylight and the police have not made any arrests.

    There were swastikas on my bank in Surfside a few weeks ago. We complained to the manager who said he could not do anything about them and they stayed there for days. When I went to North Miami Beach to shop there were swastikas on the outside of the store.

    My sister lives in Lakewood and she says that there have been many more incidents in Lakewood than in Miami Beach. She does not let her son ride his bike anymore because too many Jewish kids have been beaten up. Last October Rabbi Moskowitz was nearly killed by an attacker with a baseball bat but it was not the first incident and there have been several more since then.

    Most Anti Semitic incidents are NOT reported to the ADL. .

    My daughter recently heard Rebbetzin Jungreis speak and the Rebbetzin said that America today reminded her of her native Hungary in the 1930s.

    That sent a chill down my spine.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous,

    Miami may be experiencing an upsurge in anti-semitism. This would not be entirely surprising in that in the recent Miami Beach mayoral election, one of the candidates was accused of anti-semitism, apparently without justification. (The accused candidate won.) Such accusations tend to be self-fulfilling prophecies.

    However, I would point out that arson, auto accidents, violent crime, etc. are commonplace in the Miami area. One cannot assume that every such event is anti-semitic.

    In fact, of the two arsons you mentioned, one was already ruled an accident. The other fire, at the Chabad house, is being investigated as a possible arson and perhaps a hate crime. (It may also have been cover for the theft of sifrei Torah.)

    Of the auto accidents, one was almost certainly an accident caused by an elderly driver (who stopped her car and remained at the scene). The other was a hit and run and could be a hote crime or it could be a drunk driver.

    In any event, in an area with a high concentration of Jews and a high crime rate, things like this will happen.
    Is it ok? No.
    Should you leave? Perhaps.
    Anti-semitism? Probably not.

    Lakewood also has major problems with crime which affects all residents. In some areas one cannot let one's children play outdoors without close supervision. Some of the crime may be motivated by anti-semitism, but it is really hard to know how much.

    If a non-Jewish kid gets beaten up by neighborhood bullies it is just "kids", when a Jewish kid is beaten up it's Kristalnacht.

    Even regarding the horrible incident with R' Moskowitz, I am not convinced that it was anti-semitism per se. A mentally-ill man beat a stranger on the street. If it wasn't for the identity of the victim, we would assume it was just a random crime.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Poway, CA - Synagogue Spray-Painted with Hate Messages Again

    From Vos iz Neias.

    I guess Lazera will say this is not anti Semitism either. The Swastikas must be some kids playing "American Indian mystic".

    Contrary to what some American Jews believe, we are still in Galus and waiting for the Messiah.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "one was already ruled an accident. "

    In the Miami Beach Kollel, two fires started simultaneously in an empty building. One in the Aron and the other in a bathroom. Seforim were found burned in the bathroom.

    Fire Chief Javier Otero ruled the fire an accident without any investigation. The ADL asked the FBI to investigate and they ruled that the fire could only be an arson. But no evidence was collected at the site in a timely manner so the perpetrators went free.

    As far as the mayoral election, the mayor Matti Herera Bower is a Gentile woman who is married to a Jewish man. She claims that she is entitled to say anything she wants publicly about the Jewish community because she "is Jewish".

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.