Monday, May 16, 2016

Kaminetsky-Greenbaltt Heter: A clear refutation of an alleged justification for the heter

update: added Bavli Yevamos (88a) to analysis

Last night I was given a possible justification for the infamous Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter. It was claimed that the Yerushalmi (Yevamos 15:4) states that once a beis din has given a psak that a woman could remarry - the heter remained valid even though the basis for the psak was lies and a misunderstanding of elementary halacha.

On the surface it looks like support. In essence the Yerushalmi describes a case where a woman remarried based on the psak of beis din who had two witnesses testify that her husband had died.

Then the husband comes to court - and the court denies that he is the husband and beats a talmid chachom who suggests otherwise. Thus it seems that a mistaken psak can validate a second marriage as we have in the case of Tamar Epstein.

However it is clear that is not the accepted halacha. The Yerushalmi only applies when there is a sofek as to the validity of the claim that the man is actually the first husband. as shown in Shulchan Aruch (E.H 17:56-57) - when it is clear that the first husband is in fact alive - the woman can not rely on the mistaken psak to remain married.

This is also a clear rebuke of the nonsensical view of Rabbi Greenblatt that once he has given a psak he does not need to retract it in the face of evidence that the facts and the halachic analysis are clearly wrong. Besides the fact that the two witnesses that he relied on (two therapists ) did not testify before beis din, one of them is not frum and the other one received his information from Tamar - and did not speak with Aharon Friedman at all. Even if they were kosher witnesses it is clear that their assertions about mental illness are wrong. Finally his psak is a blatant twisting and misuse of Rav Moshe's heter.

In sum, we have witnessed the shameful corruption of halacha by two gedolim. Even though it has been claimed that Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky has accepted the psak of Rav Dovid Feinstein that the heter is invalid - he has never actually stated such, He has not said that the heter is wrong but only that his son claims he will accept Rav Dovid Feinstein's ruling. And not only has he not told Tamar Epstein to separate from her husband he has reportedly told them not to separate despite the psak of Rav Feinstein.

תלמוד ירושלמי (יבמות טו:ד): פיסקא: עד א' אומר כו'. עד א' אמר מת ונישאת ובא אחר ואמר לא מת הרי זו לא תצא. מפני שאמר משנישאת. [דף עט עמוד ב] הא אם עד שלא נישאת ונישאת תצא.
אמר ר' יוחנן זו דברי רבי מנחם בי רבי יוסי. אבל דברי חכמים בין אמר משנישאת בין שאמר עד שלא נישאת לא תינשא. ואם נישאת לא תצא.

רב נחמן בר יעקב בשם רב נישאת על פי עדים שנים אפילו אתון אמרין לה לית אתנו.
 רבי שמואל בר רב יצחק בעי הגע עצמך שהוא אדם מסויים כגון אימי. אמר רבי יוסי בי ר' בון ולית כמן בר נש דמיי לרבי אמי?

אתא עובדא קומי דרבנן דתמן אמרין ליה לית אתנו. קם אבא בר בא ולחש לה גוי אודנה. אמר לה בחייך הב לה גט מספק. קמו תלמידוי דרב ומחוניה אמר ערקתא יקד וספסלה יקד. שמואל אמר תמן הוינא ולא ערקתא יקדת ולא ספסלה יקדת אלא אבא הוא דלקה. וקם לה.

 אתא עובדא קומי רבי אימי א"ל אין בריא דהיא שריא לך אלא תהא יודע דבניה דההוא גברא ממזירא קומי שמייא. והוה רבי זעירא מקלס ליה דו מקים מילתא על בררא:

Yerushalmi (Yevamos 15:4) If a single witness testified… If a single witness testified that the first husband was dead and she remarried and then someone came and said the first husband was still alive – she does not have to leave the second husband. That is because the Mishna says she had remarried before the witness came. But if she had not yet remarried and then this witness came and testified that the first husband is alive – if consequently she married she needs to leave the second marriage.

 Rav Yochanon said this is the view of Rabbi Menachem but the view of the Sages is that it doesn't matter whether this witness came after she remarried or whether the witness came before she remarried – she is not allowed to remarry. But if she remarried she does not have to leave the second husband.

Rav Nachman said in the name of Rav, if she remarried on the testimony of two witnesses– even if one of the said he is her first husband[1] – we say to him that we don't recognize him as the first husband.[2] [Because there are two witnesses that he died we tell him that he just looks like the first husband or we simply tell him that he is not the first husband because two witnesses said the first husband is dead]

Rabbi Shmuel said, What if the first husband was famous such as Rav Ami[3]  whom everyone recognizes[4]  (by reputation and by brilliance but not by direct recognition)– would you still say he can't be the first husband [since two witnesses have testified that he is dead]? Rav Yosef said do you think there is no one in the world who is similar in greatness in Torah to Rav Ami?[5] [Since she has been permitted to marry by two witnesses, a person is not believed when he claims to be the first husband]

There was an actual case[6] that happened with the Rabbis of Babylonia concerning a woman who remarried based on the testimony of two witnesses that her husband was dead and afterwards the first husband came to beis din [and announced he was still alive]. The beis din said that that they did not recognize him as the first husband[7] and that the woman did not have to leave her second husband. Abba bar Bah stood and whispered in the ear of the second husband[8] – give your wife a Get because of a sofek – because it appears that this is actually the first husband and the witnesses lied. The students of Rav arose and beat Abba bar Bah[9]  because he disagreed with Rav (their rebbe)  - before them or because Rav was the official authority of that place.

It was said that the strap[10] that they beat Abba bar Bah as well as the bench that he was on during the beating – caught fire to show that  the beating was not in accord with the halacha.

Shmuel[11] said he actually had been there during the beating and in fact there was no strap or bench that burnt but that he saw Abba beaten and then he stood and left. In other words the halacha was in fact according to the students of Rav that he deserved to be beaten for telling the second husband to give a Get.

There was such a case that was presented to Rabbi Ami[12] and he said to the second husband , It is not clear that that she is permitted to you. You should know that your children from her are are almost certainly considered mamzerim before Heaven. Because before G-d everything is revealed as to whether it is true that this man is not the first husband.

Rabbi Zeiri praised Rabbi Ami[13] as one who knows how to present the matter clearly and reconcile the two views.
========================================= 

Yehuda added this from the Bavli 
(Yevamos 88a):MUST . . . LEAVE THE ONE AS WELL AS THE OTHER etc. Rab stated: This was taught only in respect [of a woman] who married on the evidence of a single witness, but if she married on the strength of the evidence of two witnesses, she need not leave.44 In the West45 they laughed at him. ‘Her husband’ [they remarked] comes, and there he stands, and you say: She need not leave!’ — This46 [it may be replied] was required only in the case when the man47 was not known.48 If he49 is unknown, why is she to leave [her second husband] even where she only married on the evidence of a single witness? This is required only in the case where two witnesses came and stated, ‘We were with him49 from the moment he left until now, but you it is who are unable to recognize him’;50 

Regarding Rav's statement in the Yerushalmi that even if the husband comes back we don't remove a Heter given based on two witnesses: the Bavli Yevomos 88a brings it and says it only applies when we don't recognize the husband, and in fact in Eretz Yisrael they laughed at the thought that we would allow her to stay married if the husband is here. Tosafos explains that the husband returning is far better then two witnesses. Even the Yerushalmi itself in Yevomos 10'5' according to Korbon Ha'eidah's text says that we do not pasken like Rav because he is contradicted by a Mishna. The Ramban on the Parsha of Eidim Zomimin in Shoftim says that the dead person returning cannot make the pair of witnesses into zommimin because the posuk only refers to cases that require some investigation, but if the man returns then it is obvious that the witnesses lied.

Halacha:
Divrei Chaim[14] (E. H. 1:42): She can remained married to the second husband and anyone who raises questions about the psak deserves to be beaten and the children are totally kosher – as is expressed by the Yerushalmi. [This apparently means if there are only rumors or his identity is not established by two witnesses]

Shulchan Aruch[15](E.H. 17:56): A woman whose husband left to a foreign country and she receives news that he died – if she remarries and afterwards her first husband comes – it doesn't matter whether she remarries based on a single witness or based on two witnesses – and even if she did not have intercourse with the second – she must leave both husbands and she requires a Get from both of them and she does not get a kesuba from either of them (even if the first husband takes her back).

Shulchan Aruch[16](E.H. 17:57): If a woman is told that her husband died and she remarries and afterwards she is informed that he in fact had been alive when she remarried – but he has subsequently died. Any child born to her prior to the death of her first husband is a mamzer according to the Torah. Children born after the first husband died are not considered mamzerim. There are some who say that they have the status of rabbinic mamzerus.

Shulchan Aruch[17](E.H. 17:58): … If a woman was forced to remarry by the mistaken psak of a major beis din – she is considered that she had been forced against her will and therefore she is permitted to her first husband after the mistake is discovered (Rashba 1189 as mentioned in Beis Yosef).

Aruch HaShulchan[18](E.H. 17:256): A woman whose husband went far away and then she was told that he died and she remarried and afterwards her husband returned – the Sages fined her with many punishments. … And even if she remarried based on two witnesses that the husband had died – because of the great damage that she did by remarrying when she was still married to the first hsuband and because of the potential for producing mamzerim it is appropriate that she be punished for the sake of other women that they should hear and fear that the same happen to them. After all she did sin to some degree since we see that the witnesses were false – she should have checked more carefully whether what they said was true...





[1] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו): אפי' אתון. אפי' באו בעליהן אח"כ:
[2] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד):  אמרין ליה לית אתנו. אין בנו כח להוציאה הואיל ואמרו שנים שמת בעלה של זו אמרינן זהו איניש אחרינא הוא וקלסתר פניו דומה להראשון א"נ לית אתנו אין אתם בעליהן של אלו שהרי העדים העידו שמתו:
[3] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד) הגע עצמך. אמור לנפשך אם הבעל השני הוא אדם חשוב ומפורסם כר' אימי שהכל מכירין אותו וכי נאמר שאחר הוא:
[4]  דברי חיים (אבן העזר חלק א סימן מב): ועתה לא נשאר לנו רק מה שאומר הבליעל הפסול לעדות כפי מכתבם (יעוין בדבריהם) [אין בדבריו] ממש דבעל על עצמו לא נאמן וגם כי הוא פסול:
ומה שמגזם בדבר לפי הנראה שהוא איזה תחבולה ורמאות עיין בבית מאיר [בתשובותיו שבסוף הספר סי' ח'] שם מבואר בהדיא דאין לחוש לפטומי מילי כי האי וכן מבואר בירושלמי [יבמות] פט"ו הל' ד' וזה לשונו ר' נחמן בר יעקב בשם רב נישאת על פי עדים שנים אפילו אתון אמרין לה לית אתנו ר' שמואל בר רב יצחק בעי הגע עצמך שהוא אדם מסוים כגון אימי אמר ר' יוסי בר בון ולית קמן בר נש דמיי לר' אמי אתא עובדא קומי דרבנן דתמן אמרין ליה לית אתנו עכ"ל הרי גם שהי' מפורסם כר' אמי היינו שלא היו מכירין על פניו רק בחריפות ובדבריו דברי תורה שאמר וסיפורי מעשיות בין הבריות ואפילו הכי קאמר שאין לחוש לזה וזה ברור:
ויתר דברי הירושלמי שם צ"ע במה שלחש לבעל שיוציא מספק וקמי שמיא גליא הלא אינו מותר בה רק כשנשאת להעד ואומרת ברי לי ואם כן מאי ספיקא גבה וצ"ע לפרש:
כללו של דבר שהאשה זו מותרת לישב תחת בעלה והמוציא קול עליה ראוי להכותו כמבואר בירושלמי והוא מוציא דיבה והבנים כשרים גמורים:
[5] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): ה"ג ולית תמן א"נ ולית כאן בר נש וכו'. וה"פ וכי אין בכל העולם אדם גדול בתורה כר' אימי ואיכא למימר זה אדם אחר שבא לכאן מסוף העולם וטעמא דמלתא כיון שיצאה בהיתר ע"פ שני עדים שוב אינו נאמן אף על פי שבא בעצמו:
[6] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): אתא עובדא. בא מעשה כזה שניסת ע"פ עדים ואח"כ בא בעלה לפני חכמים שבבבל:
[7] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): אמרין ליה לית אתנו. ואין מוציאין אותה מן הראשון:
[8] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): ה"ג ולחש ליה גו אודניה וא"ל בחייך הב לה גט מספק. וה"פ אבא לחש לבעל השני באזנו שיתן לה גט מספק דנראה שזהו הבעל הראשון ושקר העידו:
[9] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): קמו תלמידיה דרב. והכו אותו על שחלק על רב רבן בפניהם או באתרא דרב:
[10]  קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): ערקתא יקד. הרצועה שהוכה בה אבא וגם הספסל שרבע עליה בשעה שלקה שתיהן נשרפו להראות דשלא כדין לקה:
[11] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): שמואל אמר. שם הייתי בשעת ההכאה ולא הרצועה ולא הספסל נשרפו אלא ראיתי שאבא נלקה ועמד והלך לו ל"א וקם לה הלכתא כתלמידי דרב:
[12] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): תא עובדא. בא מעשה כזה לפני ר"א וא"ל להבעל השני שנשאה אין בני היא מותרת לך אלא הוי יודע שבניך מאשה זו קרוב לודאי שהן ממזרים לפני המקום ב"ה שלפניו גלוי אם האמת אתה שאין זה בעלה:
[13] קרבן העדה (יבמות פרק טו:ד): והוה ר' זעירא. משבח ליה לר' אימי שהוא יודע להעמיד הדבר על בוריו שעשה לדברי שניהם:
[14]  דברי חיים (אבן העזר חלק א סימן מב): ועתה לא נשאר לנו רק מה שאומר הבליעל הפסול לעדות כפי מכתבם (יעוין בדבריהם) [אין בדבריו] ממש דבעל על עצמו לא נאמן וגם כי הוא פסול:
ומה שמגזם בדבר לפי הנראה שהוא איזה תחבולה ורמאות עיין בבית מאיר [בתשובותיו שבסוף הספר סי' ח'] שם מבואר בהדיא דאין לחוש לפטומי מילי כי האי וכן מבואר בירושלמי [יבמות] פט"ו הל' ד' וזה לשונו ר' נחמן בר יעקב בשם רב נישאת על פי עדים שנים אפילו אתון אמרין לה לית אתנו ר' שמואל בר רב יצחק בעי הגע עצמך שהוא אדם מסוים כגון אימי אמר ר' יוסי בר בון ולית קמן בר נש דמיי לר' אמי אתא עובדא קומי דרבנן דתמן אמרין ליה לית אתנו עכ"ל הרי גם שהי' מפורסם כר' אמי היינו שלא היו מכירין על פניו רק בחריפות ובדבריו דברי תורה שאמר וסיפורי מעשיות בין הבריות ואפילו הכי קאמר שאין לחוש לזה וזה ברור:
ויתר דברי הירושלמי שם צ"ע במה שלחש לבעל שיוציא מספק וקמי שמיא גליא הלא אינו מותר בה רק כשנשאת להעד ואומרת ברי לי ואם כן מאי ספיקא גבה וצ"ע לפרש:
כללו של דבר שהאשה זו מותרת לישב תחת בעלה והמוציא קול עליה ראוי להכותו כמבואר בירושלמי והוא מוציא דיבה והבנים כשרים גמורים:
[15] שולחן ערוך (אבן העזר יז:נו): האשה שהלך בעלה למדינה אחרת ובאו ואמרו לה: מת בעליך, ונשאת ואח"כ בא בעלה, לא שנא נשאת על פי עד אחד או על פי שני עדים, ( אפילו לא נבעלה) (הרא"ש והריב"ש והריטב"א ונ"י סימן תק"ח), תצא מזה ומזה. וצריכה גט משניהם, ואין לה כתובה משניהם, ( אפי' החזירה הראשון) (הגהות אלפסי),
[16] שולחן ערוך אבן העזר (יז:נז):  אמרו לה: מת בעליך, ונשאת, ואח"כ אמרו לה: קיים היה ומת, ולד שהוליד קודם שמת, ממזר מן התורה, ושהוליד אח"כ, אינו ממזר. וי"א שהוא ממזר מדרבנן.
[17] שולחן ערוך אבן העזר (יז:נח): ... אבל אנסוה להנשא, או שהורו לה בית דין בטעות ונשאת על פיהם, הוי כאנוסה, ומותרת לבעלה הראשון (תשובת הרשב"א אלף קפ"ט הובאה בבית יוסף).
[18] ערוך השולחן (אבן העזר סימן יז:רנו): האשה שהלך בעלה למדינה אחרת ובאו ואמרו לה מת בעלך ונשאת ואח"כ בא בעלה קנסוה חכמים בכמה דברים כמו שיתבאר דעיקר מה שהאמינו חכמים לעד אחד מפני שאוקמוה אחזקה שתדייק שפיר עד שתדע על בירור שמת וכיון שלא דייקה קנסוה חכמים ומ"מ אף הנשאת ע"פ שני עדים ובא בעלה ג"כ קנסוה בכל הקנסות שיתבאר ואף על גב דמה הוה לה למיעבד דבשלמא בעד אחד היה לה לדייק אחר דברי העד כמ"ש אבל בשני עדים דע"פ שנים עדים יקום דבר בכל התורה כולה ולמה לנו לקונסה מ"מ מפני גודל הקלקול שנעשה להנשא באיסור אשת איש ולהרבות ממזרים בישראל כדאי היא שתוקנס למען כל הנשים ישמעו ויראו דהרי מ"מ פושעת היא קצת דהרי ראינו שעידי שקר הם וכל אשה הקשורה בבעלה יש לה לחקור הדק היטב אם אמת הדבר שמת אם לאו [נ"ל] ואפילו לא נבעלה עדיין מהשני כיון שנכנסה לחופה עמו קנסוה וה"ה אם נתייחדה עמו אחר הקדושין [חמ"ח סקק"י] אבל אם נתקדשה ועדיין לא נתייחדה עמו לא קנסוה כאשר יתבאר במילתא בטעמא בס"ד:

34 comments :

  1. “There was an actual case that happened with the Rabbis of Babylonia concerning a woman who remarried based on the testimony of two witnesses that her husband was dead and afterwards the first husband came to beis din [and announced he was still alive]. The beis din said that that they did not recognize him as the first husband and that the woman did not have to leave her second husband.”

    “Then the husband comes to court - and the court denies that he is the husband and beats a talmid chachom who suggests otherwise.”

    This is different from the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter. The Gamara case has a beit din making a fine and proper ruling when they approved the woman to remarry without a get, based on 2 witnesses. Two witnesses testifying is like a modern death certificate---proof. When the husband comes to the beit din, alive and well---I can understand the beit din insisting the woman remain with her 2nd husband claiming a doubt if it’s the real husband appearing in court. This is not adultery. She and the beit din followed the rules. My feeling, reading the material, is that the real husband is dead, but who knows?

    The Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter is an egregious (remarkably bad, flagrant) beit din ruling. It enables adultery! The Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter is so blatant and so crazy and so obviously done by the radical feminists and their supporter rabbis including the government witnesses in the Mendel Epstein trial. Rabbi Feinstein must, in my opinion, strongly denounce this egregious beit din ruling. We all must denounce egregious beit din rulings and speak up, especially in matters of adultery, Heaven forbid. God warns us in this week’s parsha on adultery:

    “If a man commits adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. … You shall faithfully observe all My laws and all My regulations, lest the land to which I bring you to settle in spew you out. You shall not follow the practices of the nation that I am driving out before you. For it is because they did all these things that I abhorred them” (Leviticus 20:10,22-27).

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  2. Much ado about nothing.

    1) R' Dovid is aware of all of these mareh mekomot, and still paskened it's worthless. We still need to hear the whole Emes that the couple must depart immediately, veteitze mize umize.

    2) Only BBD has any and all Jurisdiction over this case and beasrei derav you cannot intervene. HaEchad bo logur, vayishpot shofoit?

    3) This whole issue is of a mechusser Get - ein hanidon dome lerayah.
    a) No one died here and eishes ish didn't dissolve here.
    b) This is not a justification for a Mekach Taus where he is still alive.
    c) Ein hachay makchish es hachay, the nidon is here and ask him whether he is with his faculties intact or prove him otherwise.
    d) A wife is not credible to testify her husband died. How can she tell the Doctor that he did, or shall we say 'be'nidon didan' the equivalent of death that he is totally meshuga?
    e) She is a nogea bedovor and has no ne'emones even of mesiach lefi tumah.
    f) The so called Doc has absolutely no ne'emones since he is going to lose his license in going against the rules and regulations of the Trade as well as the law of the Land by diagnosing second hand.
    g) In either case, hen midinei Yisroel vehen midinei demalchusse the Doc took a bribe for falsifying a report, thereby making it worthless.
    h) You don't even have one credible witness from the getgo and you knew it in real time.
    i) Even if all had been true, she is only entitled to a Get, Mekach taus man dechar shmei. This reflects the Am ha'aratzus of the parties involved that should have never been dealing in iskei gittin veKidushin in the first place.
    j) This whole fiasco as a credible Heter is dead and beating a dead horse.
    k) This is a tfilas shav.
    l) The little life she still might have left she is in a self destruct mode. m) need we say more.

    4) All parties involved must do Tshuvah and admit what they did was wrong.

    5) All parties involved must ask mechila from R' AF and demonstrate charatah al haovar. from the Nirdaf ASAP.

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  3. "we have witnessed the shameful corruption of halacha by two gedolim"
    Why do you refer to these men as "gedolim"? Their actions are those of tinokim. Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky, zt'l, was a gadol. His son has stomped upon the Kaminetzky heritage for the sake of a ילדה מפונקת.

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  4. "lest the land to which I bring you to settle in spew you out"
    Has anyone else noticed the spate of stabbings and other deaths began in Eretz Yisroel a week after the marriage of the adulterous ילדה מפונקת!

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  5. No ketubah = no custody to the mother, no visitation, as per the jewish (and secular, actually) custom of the day, thdn.

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  6. Could the person who presented this Yerushalmi give a source which supports his understanding?

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  7. the simple translation seems to support his understanding. However it is clear from the Shulchan Aruch that the supremacy of two witnesses and psak of beis din only applies when there is a rumor or sofek against it.

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  8. Does anyone know for sure what happened to the couple after the letter from RSK said it accepts the psak of Rav Dovid Feinstien? It's been pretty quiet here.

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  9. But is the Shulchan Aruch comenting on/ruling on the Yerushalmi, or ruling against it? In other words - was the halacha of the Yerushalmi as per the plain reading, or was it according the Shulchan Aruch? (sorry I have very little knowledge of the Yerushalmi and its status in halacha).

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  10. The Yerushalmi does not explicitly distinguish between when it is clearly established that the man is actually the first husband and when it is possible but there is no proof other than his claims. See the Divrei Chaim I cited.

    The Shulchan Aruch is clearly dealing with the case where his identity is accepted. Neither source explains what needs to be done to establish his identity. The Divrei Chaim indicates that aside from his claim the man has a reputation regarding his ability - but there is no actual proof who he is.

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  11. “Shulchan Aruch[17](E.H. 17:58): … If a woman was forced to remarry by the mistaken psak of a major beis din – she is considered that she had been forced against her will and therefore she is permitted to her first husband after the mistake is discovered (Rashba 1189 as mentioned in Beis Yosef).”

    Can Tamar go back to Aaron, her husband, saying that she was forced to remarry by the mistaken psak of a major beis din – she is considered that she had been forced against her will and therefore she is permitted to her first husband after the mistake is discovered?? How does Rabbi Schechter going and speaking April 10, 2016 in that shul fit in ?? Rabbi Eidensohn, what’s going on down in America? Rabbi Mendel Epstein boasted on his sentencing day of being a vigilante---judge, jury and executioner---maybe thinking Judge Freda, being a woman, would support him. Mendel Epstein had wide and deep support for over 30 years. Does he still have support among Orthodox in America? His name was mud in Israel for the longest time.

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  12. I had been asking this question from Adam, much before the Psak and no one was able to answer if they had been seen together. The best I got was that we put it on chazaka since no one declared them otherwise. Sod betoch ta'aluma.

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  13. This Yerushalmi has no resemblance to this FIASCO. At best, you have two eidim that let's say lied and the BD made a ruling accordingly based on this false eidus. Not so the yerushalmi. The Kaminetsky's were in cahoots with all parties involved, lied through their teeth in tandem and was false from Adam every step of the way. Nowhere does anyone pasken on a Beis Din Istatis that if they wrongly/falsely paskened bezadon beyedua mitchila vead sof that it holds even after the facts. There is a world of a difference between the BD having been had by eidim reshoim and a beis Din Rosho acting with Chutzpah falsely putting facts on the ground as if in innocence. This is the epitome of megaleh panim baTorah shelo Kehalacha bekavana tchila!

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  14. Rabbi Nota Greenblatt:
    (1) Apparently gave the Heter
    (2) Performed the "marriage ceremony" of Tamar Epstein, based on the Heter
    (3) Nevertheless, told me that Aharon Friedman must give Tamar a Get.

    So, does the person who made the logical argument to you hold that Rabbi Greenblatt must be beaten?!

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  15. It would be pretty funny if they separated but kept it quiet not to offend RNG and to drive everybody crazy.

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  16. I don't quite understand the comparison between RNG's heter and this Yerushalmi. In the Yerushalmi's case Bais Din followed the halachic procedure for being matar an Aguna.

    Psak is always dependent on the body of knowledge available to B"D at the time of the ישיבת בית דין, as Chazal say "אין לדיין אלא מאי שעיניו רואות (ב"ב קלא, נדה כ)".

    The various חילוקי דעות center around what level of certitude is required to invalidate a properly attained Psak of B"D.

    Nothing of that sort happened in RNG's case, where he explicitly stated that his heter is based on an assumption that psychiatrists in general and those involved in this case in particular have a level of expertise that matches that of medical experts - a fact that has been thoroughly discredited in countless comments here and elsewhere.

    The aforementioned Gemara in ב"ב is one of many that state that a Psak which was מלכתחילה reached under false assumptions NEVER stands.

    For Heavan's sake; What would happen if G-d forbid, Obama'a administration succeeds in forcing society to define gender according to each individual's whim. What would happen if a woman following a regimen of hormone therapy to make her appear male sues a shul for not being given an Aliya and a kangaroo "Bais Din" "paskens" that she must be given an aliya - will such a "psak" also stand?

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  17. the common point is that in both cases it is claimed that the psak exists independently of the validity of the facts that determined the psak

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  18. but the yerushalmi only says so in cases where the dayanoim did their
    due diligence, as in אין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות. Please see the
    Gemara I quoted in ב"ב, where רבא clearly tells ר פפא ור' הונא ברי' דר"י
    not to follow his Psak where the reasoning was faulty. In other words,
    faulty reasoning definitely DOES invalidate a Psak. Why else do we have
    Siman כ, כ"ה in חושן משפט.



    ב"ב קל-קלא:

    אמר להו רבא לרב פפא ולרב הונא בריה דרב יהושע כי אתי פסקא דדינא דידי לקמייכו
    וחזיתו ביה פירכא לא תקרעוהו עד דאתיתו לקמאי אי אית לי טעמא אמינא לכו ואי לא
    הדרנא בי לאחר מיתה לא מיקרע תקרעוהו ומגמר נמי לא תגמרו מיניה לא מיקרע תקרעיניה
    דאי הואי התם דלמא הוה אמינא לכו טעמא מגמר נמי לא תגמרו מיניה דאין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות

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  19. Are you saying that if there did there did their due diligence - that subsequent discovery of errors of fact and halacha can be ignored? My point is that there is no source saying that a psak is valid after it has been shown to be based on lies and misunderstanding of halacha

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  20. Definite errors of fact aren't ignored, the bar is however set higher for an appeal.
    Had the husband returned and shown סימנים מובהקים I don't believe there would have been any disagreement that the Psak is abolished. They only argue on what level of certitude is necessary.

    Questions of law are another matter. That's why we have the aforementioned simanim in C"M.

    Secular courts work much the same way.

    See http://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/appeals.html

    and http://www.newyorkcplr.com/5501.php

    RNG monumental error is more than anything imho in assuming that psychiatry offers objective determinations of normalcy,. This is based on pure ignorance, as countless scholarly papers state otherwise, including papers written by the pros who actually wrote the DSM and fund the largest budgets in MH research.

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  21. Supposedly the coup[le lives apart and the arrangements are that Adam works as an Accountant in New Jersey a whole week, and she works in her hometown Philly PA. as a nurse. Yet all in all, no one came up as an eyewitness ever seeing them together. Why is this under clouds? Huh?
    For more info:
    https://tamarepstein.wordpress.com/pediatric-nurse-practitioner-tamar-epstein/
    https://www.intelius.com/people/Tamar-Epstein/08j08vqge7t?hasSentRedir=1&refer=4918

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  22. What happened with tzuras hapartzuf, tvias eine bekole? According to the Yerushalmi, is there such thing as Megale ponim baTorah shelo kehalacha ever holds? These people are fakers and liars, and never paskened according to das Moshe veYisrael. Without even resorting to the witnesses, the Beis Din is false, fake and phony rodfei shalmonim. They first tried divorce and when that didn't fly they mekach taust in absentia. Hakol shkarim and there is nothing what to talk about.

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  23. Does the fact that there was no Bais Din issuing RNG's heter, just RNG alone, have any effect on the "psak"?

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  24. Politically IncorrectMay 13, 2016 at 7:38 PM

    Glad to see this concern didn't die down.....

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  25. it surely should. i didn't mention that because i wanted to pick what i think is the most central issue. TE's people compare it to isurim, where no b"d is required, which is of course laughable, as is the fact that there was no drisha vchakira.

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  26. representing oneself to the public as husband and wife, whether or not they "live togather", is considered halachically married (or eshet ish, in this case).

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  27. in a "momonot" (financial matters) case, if a bet din made a mistake (math; for example; erroneous testimony, etc), they must (and usually do) correct the psak.

    except, of cour$e, in thi$ ca$e.

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  28. I am somehow ambivalent about this. They went to City hall to register, and then had a siddur kidushin by RNG. The Kidushin is not tofes while she remains an eishes ish of the first husband. By now she surely is aware that all ceremonies are worthless, however, the question remains if they are or have been separated for the whole time since Adam whether that's considered as misrepresentation. The whole Get from second is because of maris ayin shelo yomru that isho yotza'as bli Get as mishna in Yevamos. Numerous times I have posted if anyone has seen them together, but no one seems to know. This is somehow queer. Tamar had been reported to be at the Drasha of the Hagaddah by Rabbi RHS and I posted there as well if Mr. Adam was present to no avail. How could such a public issue remain a mystery, I have no clue. True, she needs a Get, but at least we would like to know that she is not living in sin. Please, if anyone has knowledge of the situation and arrangements if any, Toda lemafrea.

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  29. I jurt looked at her employer's website zou posted.it seems euen wherdes. Rhe liu

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  30. If you open a Shu"t tzitz Eliezer you will find that he brings a psak from 150 years ago that if a women becomes a man that she wouldn't need to get a "get". The wording of the get is "eishes reieihu" and she is no longer a women.

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  31. See Shmuel 1:25, vehoish beMaon umlachto baKarmel. Unless Adam is like Alksander mokdon, they have no hope. veD"l

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  32. ערוך השולחן (אבן העזר סימן יז:רנו): האשה שהלך בעלה למדינה אחרת ובאו ואמרו לה מת בעלך ונשאת ואח"כ בא בעלה קנסוה חכמים בכמה דברים
    כמו שיתבאר דעיקר מה שהאמינו חכמים לעד אחד מפני שאוקמוה אחזקה שתדייק שפיר עד שתדע על בירור שמת וכיון שלא דייקה קנסוה חכמים
    ...ולמה לנו לקונסה מ"מ מפני גודל הקלקול שנעשה להנשא באיסור אשת איש ולהרבות ממזרים בישראל כדאי היא שתוקנס למען כל הנשים ישמעו ויראו דהרי מ"מ פושעת היא קצת

    How much more is she liable to
    לקונסה
    when she knew that she is lying.
    Please add this to the list of the above

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  33. gevaldig.
    i dont have to go to a bais midrash to open a sefer. All the lomdus i ever needed in my life is right here.
    this way i never have a problem with birchas haTorah made le'Vatalah.
    my only problem is: when i go to the mens room, i am so obsessed with this sugya that i cannot stop myself from reviewing all the svaros

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