At 33.5 minutes Rav Herschel Schachter starts talking about the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter and that it is invalid because the posek did not have the correct information. He also talks briefly about the problem with the Krauss Beis Din for Agunas, being criticized for questioning rabbinic competence and the necessity of rabbonim talking to each other.
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RHS gives two reasons why the Tamar's heter is invalid:
ReplyDelete1. Because the physiological reports it was based on didn't include an actual in-person assessment of the husband
and
2. Because the case was already under the jurisdiction of the Baltimore Beis Din
and that the posek who issed the psak was unaware of the above two points.
RHS said that the posek himself said afterwards that had he known the additional facts he was unaware of at the time of the psak then he wouldn't have issued the psak, which RHS refers to as a psak b'taos.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Schachter, in the above recorded shiur, calls Tamar Epstein an "Agunah D'Oraysa".
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstood him. The deoraysa part was coming to say that she is still married to him mideoraysa because, as Rav Schachter says, "he's not dead". The agunah status is his evaluation of her situation.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to hear RYGB's input on RHS's point.
ReplyDeleteLook's like ORA's bogus halachic facade has collapsed for all to see.
ReplyDeleteThe ORA feminists attempt to gain legitimacy for their ugly halachic violations by claiming that they follow the psak of R. Schachter. However R. Schachter has apparently admitted that Tamar's heter is not valid.
Then how can ORA possibly claim that "TAMAR IS FREE!!!"?
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/12/friedman-epstein-tamar-epstein-claims.html
So which rav, if any, is in charge of the ORA feminists? Or is R. Schachter just a figurehead for ORA to earn a phony legitimacy by the frum public?
what happened to "sod hashem lireyav"? (For those who dont recall: the reason given by the cynical HS why AF must give a get, al pi the Psak of RSK
ReplyDeletehe also said that was true as long as he didn't make a mistake
ReplyDeleteRHS is a hippocrit. As a rabbi who endorses ORAs tactics of producing Get Meusa on a weekly basis, this has far worse ramifications of producing hundreds or thousands of Mamzeirim, than the kaminetsky Greenblatt fiasco which involves just 1 woman!
ReplyDeleteJust wondering where in gemara there is a requirement for a psychiatrist to assess a husband in person, or at all. The standard is does he have a pre-existing personality that the majority of women could not live with. Ein adam dar im nachash bekefifa achas. Is he like a snake. Any posek is free to make that assessment on his own. There is no need for medical terminology.
ReplyDeleteTo bring in a doctor is only l'ravcha milsa, to add extra weight to the psak.
Those who defend the husband, what exactly have his terms been for issuing a get the past 5 years since the case was closed in courts? How much visitation does he want? It certainly does not strengthen one's case that one is not a snake, when one has not issued a get for 7-8 years already. Is that considered normal behavior? Would he force his wife who has no relatives in DC to remain single in a strange city so he can see child more? It is nobody's fault that her family and his job are far from each other. A very unfortunate occurrence, as are all divorces.
Those who bring up procedural issues, this beis din or that has jusrisdiction, no order for a get has been issued, and so on and so forth are just gaming the system to be metzaer the wife. Leaving somebody chained for 7-8 years raises some very red flags that one could indeed be a snake.
There is a joke about the young lawyer who just graduated law school. He joins his father's law firm. His second week, he comes to his father. Dad, you'll be very proud of me. I just settled Jones vs. Smith. His father says, You did what? What do you think has been paying our bills the past 30 years?
Does this now put the Kaminetsky's to the left of YU?!?
ReplyDeleteI will respond on the page on which I have posted all my comments.
ReplyDeleteHow are we mortals supposed to know when sod hashem lireyav" and when he made a mistake?
ReplyDeleteRHS is saying obviously an accurate assessment on the persons mental health is impossible to accurately be made without interviewing him.
ReplyDeleteHe's missing the most important point - even if the report was 100% true it's not enough to be מתיר her without a גט. That's what all the בתי דין and פוסקים have said בפה מלא.
ReplyDelete1: If the behavior in question was the type of behavior that a layman could categorize as crazy, there might not be a need for a professional assessment. But here, it is a clinical diagnosis which is serving as the basis for the heter, and a clinical diagnosis can be made only by a professional. [This is setting aside the issue of whether a DSM diagnosis is sufficient for mekach ta'us grounds in the first place, and whether an accurate DSM diagnosis can be made without meeting the subject. Both of these issued have been addressed at length already].
ReplyDelete2: Any nasty behavior from after their separation cannot be used as grounds for a mekach ta'us, as there is no evidence that whatever "condition" was underlying those behaviors was there at the time of the kiddushin, which is the time of the mekach.
3: As to what his terms are, you would have to ask him. But if he is insisting that his wife move back to the Silver Spring area, she would not be the first person in the history of the planet to live two hours away from her mother.
Thanks for your guidance Rabbi Rackman. Lying and dishonest behavior raises red flags, too, but youre not interested.
ReplyDeleteBarry has been nothing but polite. I disagree with him on almost everything, but at least he is willing to argue the substantive points in a civil manner. There's no reason to be not nice to him.
ReplyDeletePutting all jokes aside, there is no snake, was no snake, she never claimed AF is/was a snake, nor the Beis Din ever being informed of a snake. The only seemingly snake is the one of Paroh's kishufmacher's snake, and there is no need of a Psychiatrist attest to that, since it all happened in front of our eyes. AF never refused a Get, that is a blatant lie, indeed he was in the process of procuring a Get, much rather it was TE refusing AF's G-d given right for his visiting rights, and rightfully so. It was only for that, she refused accepting a Get that was offered for her to receive in front of the BD. Only when she insisted having LOLA wants it her way, all the way but couldn't get it, ONLY THEN A SNAKE WAS BORN. The snake went to Adam's wife telling her that it's ok to eat from the Adam's apple, nothing will happen to you, it's certified kosher bekif nun ta'amim. Then Hashem came asking him why did you eat from the forbidden fruit, he blamed it on her, and she in turn blamed it on the snake, and therefore from hence on, SHEKER EIN LO RAGLAYIM, THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES, AND THE SNAKE HAS NO FEET TO STAND ON. The most relevant Poskim of the world have told ALL parties concerned from A-Z to retreat immediately, get a Get from both, move on and get a life, but refuse to comply. Lola still wants everything, and LOLA wants both, eat the cake and have it too. Thus is the SNEEKY SNAKE, The TORAH vs. the NOCHOSH. We hope and pray to have this SAGA CLOSED ASAP..
ReplyDeleteAgreed Barry has been very classy.
ReplyDelete@Moe
ReplyDeleteJust to carry it one step further, the reason why it had been done without his presence, is malice, bekavono tchila, Hence no taus, it is beZADON. The facts would have shown to the contrary. At most, from TE's own notes, you can call him an Introvert, and that is not something most people cannot live with, nor is such behavior hidden. You cannot die from it, nor something you cannot live with it, nor something that is repulsive behavior. To make a snake from mole a hill, not even the mechashfim of mitsrayim belohotehem have been able to create. They are beating a dead horse, in trying to depart the Red sea, full of Red herring, carrying Red flags. Why don't they try to assess AF NOW, neise sefer venechze, he is here, the Psychiatrists are here, the BD is here, what is missing, if any??? Furthermore, AF can go NOW on his OWN and AS IS, to acquire a clean bill of Health from ten different Doctors, no snake oil, no Krispedin , no nothing. And that is the proof in the Pudding. Ein hachay makchish es hachay!!! WHY do you think the BA'ALEI haHETER don't ask for such? You don't need to answer that. ved"al
So much for *mekach lekach taus*, and red shmaltz herring.
Strange! ORA wished Tamar "Mazal tov" when she was "freed"! Did they do that without R' Schachter's consent? And now that he's come out with this statement, will ORA publicly retract their "Mazal tov" or at least take down that FB posting?
ReplyDeleteIf he says it's not valid, then all bets are off!
ReplyDelete