Thursday, February 18, 2010

R' M. Feinstein & Maharam Shick:Legitimacy of capital punishment

This is a response to the unfortunate and irresponsible actions take to try and stop the Grossman execution where it was asserted that everything must be done - even calling the governor a Nazi and harrasing the victim's family - to save a Jew's live no matter what crime he committed and that the execution was against the Torah.

Here are the words of Rav Moshe Feinstein in a letter to the governor of New York explaining that the strict Torah law on execution only applied historically in the limited case of a well ordered society. But there is a legitimate use of capital punishment to defend society - even where the Torah law is not fulfilled. There are other issues such as aivah - the back lash against Jews which need to be considered. A secular society has the right to protect itself and that includes a secular or non-Jewish one. There is no question that it was legitimate to ask to the governor to convert the sentence to life imprisonment - but the assumption is that all is permitted to achieve that goal - it simply isn't so. It is also problematic that this cold blooded murderer is now being viewed and promoted as a martyr to inspire people to be sensitive to the laws of interpersonal relationships. Whether he truly did teshuva is for G-d to say - but there are no lack of more appropriate role models out there.


Igros Moshe(C.M. 2:68): … The Torah reserves capital punishment for those sins which are very serious such as murder, kidnapping, sexually prohibited relations and idolatry. The perpetrator in these cases is unrestrained and is capable of doing whatever disgusting and cruel acts in the world that are in his heart that he thinks are for his benefit. However the death penalty is not administered out of hatred to evildoers or fear for the welfare of society because Bava Metzia (83b) tells us that G‑d will punish transgressors. That in fact is the halacha as poskened by the Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u’Mazik 8:9) as well as all other poskim. So on the one hand the purpose of capital punishment is to let people know the severity of these prohibitions so that they will not transgress them. On the other hand the laws of capital punishment emphasize the importance of each soul and other concerns. Therefore we are commanded that only the Sanhedrin with proper semicha can judge these cases. Only the greatest people in Torah scholarship and other knowledge receives this semicha. In addition to their knowledge they also need to have perfected their character and be very humble as well as G‑d fearing people. They also need to hate money and love the truth as well as wonderful people who are beloved by all…They don’t have any imperfections or bad reputations and they are very merciful. That is why very old people are not appointed judges because they have forgotten the stress of raising children. Also people without children are not appointed because they lack mercy to some degree and they will be too angry at those who have committed sins.

Even these great and good people cannot judge unless they constitute a Sanhedrin of 23 people.However it is not enough there are 23 such people to make a Sanhedrin. They also need to have before them 3 rows of very great Torah scholars who are not yet great enough to be part of the Sanhedrin – but are almost great enough. This is to protect the Sanhedrin from making a mistake in judgment. That is because when these three rows of scholars think that the Sanhedrin is mistaken in their ruling of innocence they will protest and will not listen at all to their words. Another safeguard against making a mistake is that they do not convict based on circumstantial evidence – no matter how convincing. They only convict a person based on two valid witnesses who have not the slightest bias in the matter... Furthermore the witnesses are warned concerning the severity of the sin of false testimony as well as the seriousness of the sin of murder so that they are very afraid of mistakenly convicting or mistakenly declaring the suspected murderer innocent. Even with all of this the witnesses also have to warn the person against murder and the suspected murderer has to acknowledge the warning by saying that even though he is aware of the seriousness off the crime he is still doing it. As a consequence of all these safeguards, only once in many years would someone be convicted of murder. In addition it was impossible to judge capital cases unless the Temple existed and that the Sanhedrin of 71 of the greatest scholars was in session on the Temple Mount. In fact capital cases were not judged even in those countries where the king gave the Jews permission to judge their own people according to the law of the Torah.

As a consequence of these two factors there were almost no Jewish murderers because of the awareness of the severity of the prohibition of murder and because they were educated by means of the Torah and the punishments of the Torah to understand the seriousness of the crime. They were not simply afraid of punishment in the sense of getting caught but were afraid of the crime itself.

However this use of the Torah system to run society was only when the crime of murder was not common but was simply the result of someone’s great lust or some quarrel concerning money or honor. But when people killed simply because it was viewed as an insignificant thing and the murderer was simply a callous and cruel person or similarly if there was a great deal of murders and wickedness – then a different system of law was utilized that was concerned with the pragmatic question of stopping killing and the goal became saving the society.


Maharam Shick(C.M. #50):
Concerning the incident in which a man’s brother suddenly died and his wife’s brother was suspected of having poisoned her husband. There was some circumstantial evidence as well as a partial confession. Also she was suspected of being involved with another man who apparently participated with her in the murder. You write that gedolim of our country have written to you expressing great surprise at the silence concerning this matter. According to them it is a mitzva to destroy the evil and not have mercy on them. The Torah’s principle is life for a life and one who spills the blood of another person his blood is required to be spilled… Based on Bava Metzia (83b) regarding R’ Eliezer catching Jewish robbers for the Roman the halacha would allow reporting her to the police.]. While that is the halacha, nevertheless that gemora itself indicates that it is inappropriate for gedolim to be the ones to report the transgressor to the secular authorities. This is also the view of the Rashba cited by the Beis Yosef (C.M. 388). An even greater proof against reporting transgressors to secular authorities – even when there is a possible danger in not reporting – is found in the Rambam. The Rambam (Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 5:5) writes that if non‑Jews specify which Jew they want and they will kill all the Jews if he isn’t handed over – they should give him over. However the Rambam notes that if that wanted Jew deserves the death penalty he can be given over to save the others – but this halacha is not to be publicized. This is also the view of the Yerushalmi (Terumos 8:4)….

Consequently while one should not protest against those who follow the straight halacha and report the criminal to the authorities - which has many poskim to rely on - nevertheless the gedolim should not get involved in reporting these crimes but rather should be passive. This is as we saw with Shimon ben Shetach who did not have proper evidence that someone was a murderer - even though it was obvious – and therefore he did nothing. Also look at Sheilas Yaavetz (2:9)…

119 comments:

  1. However this use of the Torah system to run society was only when the crime of murder was not common but was simply the result of someone’s great lust or some quarrel concerning money or honor. But when people killed simply because it was viewed as an insignificant thing and the murderer was simply a callous and cruel person or similarly if there was a great deal of murders and wickedness – then a different system of law was utilized that was concerned with the pragmatic question of stopping killing and the goal became saving the society.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::;::::::
    Is there any reference to what type of system there was that could have been applied?

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  2. Only the greatest people in Torah scholarship and other knowledge receives this semicha.
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    What would be the other knowledge being referred to?

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  3. Hmmm, let's see. Jonathan Pollard saved Israel and bought the western world some time by his work which resulted in the bombing of Iraq's nascent nuclear plant in Osirak, as a hired Israeli agent working for Shimon Peres and Rafi Eitan, and Jonathan Pollard never murdered anyone. Where is the rallying and the outcry to free him from his torturous conditions, excessive sentence (excessive punishment is forbidden in the constitution btw) to life in prison, and his consistently being forced into solitary confinement?

    Yet this particular guy Grossman for some reason had the masses bustling. What was behind all of this?

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  4. There is a reason R Moshe ztl was stood head and shoulders above everyone else.

    In addition to his ability to unravel, understand and clarify the most profound of ideas, he was able to make the simple of ideas profound and relevant.

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  5. This is a response to the unfortunate and irresponsible actions take to try and stop the Grossman execution where it was asserted that everything must be done

    I guess you know better than Gedolei Yisroel, who across the board considered this a matter of pikuach nefesh.

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  6. It would have been nice if the American Agudah gedolim gave even a fraction of the same concern to child abuse victims however they did not give carte blanche to the lunatics posting at YWN which is read by plenty of goyim.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Boruch+Dayan+Emmes/48603/JUST+IN:+Martin+Grossman+Executed+Moments+Ago.html

    Whatever the merits are in either side of the argument, you should see the brainless morons at Yeshivaworld going bonkers and suddenly transform into anti-death penalty advocates under any circumstance out of anger. They are actually bashing Gov. Crist for having executed 4 goyishe murderers. They are also calling Grossman a "maylitz yosher for Klal Yisroel". In the oylam hofuch of Eckstein followers, Crist "yemach shmoy" is a "Cold blooded rosho" who should be voted out of office and "Hashem yinkom damav". "I CAN BARELY MOVE! IT IS SUCH A DARK DAY IN THE DARKEST GOLUS."


    The Agudah's Chaim Dovid Zweibel wrote a letter that the execution brings moshiach closer. And there are Agudah style defenses of maybe the gun went off by accident. They are even bashing the parents of the murder victim for coming to witness the execution, calling them "reshaim".

    Finally, one Eckstein follower, confers posthumous semicha on Grossman who is now "RABBI Grossman" (capitalized)

    These lunatics have been emailing the Gov's office and yelling all these things at him.

    What a bunch of sickos and what a chilul Hashem!

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  7. I guess you know better than Gedolei Yisroel, who across the board considered this a matter of pikuach nefesh.

    How snide.

    Anyway, people these days are not infallible nor are they נביאים.

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  8. How snide.

    Right, I forgot that it is snide to point out that you are going against the Gedolei Yisroel across the board.

    After all YOU are less infallible than them.

    My apologies.

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  9. Al pi din a) a Noachide (secular) court does not have jurisdiction over a yehudi, b) a Noachide (secular) court does not have authority to impose misa on a yehudi, c) without 2 witnesses who provided warning beforehand there is no death penalty d) And in any event there no death penalty by any human court - even Beis Din - when a yehudi kills a nochri (see Meshech Chochmah where it says it is only applicable Bidei Shamayim.)

    And therefore, as a result of the above, every yehudi has a legal obligation of pikuach nefesh in saving this yehudi.

    See Chazon Ish Bava Kama 10:15, Meiri, Bava Metzia 83b and can be implied from Maimonides, Hilchos Rotzeach 2:4 and Tosafos, Sanhedren 20b; R. Moshe Sofer, Chasam Sofer Likkutim responsa no. 14.

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  10. It's not clear to me from this psak how Rav Moshe would feel about SELECTIVE execution 25 years after the crime, where the perpetrator was mentally impaired at the time of the crime and was a changed man 25 years later.

    It's not clear to me how Rav Moshe would feel were he to read the studies that show no established link between capital punishment and deterrence, especially when only a small minority of murderers are executed and where the original crime was due to psychotic rage rather than premeditation.

    (I do agree, though, that the lack of similar rallying for Jonathan Pollard is a disgrace.)

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  11. Can Rav Eidensohn tell us if Aaron S's mareh mekomos only apply when Yidden are in charge?

    It is also a machlokes Achronim if you can posken from Meiri.

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  12. It is an issur d'Oraysa to get high with drugs or alcohol.

    I would think that a person who puts himself in such a matzav would bear some responsibility.

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  13. A few things that made the Grossman case different that you might not be aware of.

    1. Martin Grossman was mentally retarded with an IQ of 77. This corresponds to a mental age of 4 years and 7 months.

    2. In 2002 the US Supreme Court (Atkins v. Virginia) made it illegal for states to execute an inmate who is mentally retarded. The Supreme Court defined mentally retarded as an IQ below 70 which, at the time many felt was an older definition since today individuals are determined to be mentally challenged with IQs of up to 85, especially when there are other cognitive disabilities involved such as in the case of Martin Grossman.

    3. As a result of the Supreme Court ruling of 2002, a number of Death Row inmates had their death sentences commuted to life in prison due to their mental/cognitive disabilities.

    4. In FL, since 2002 three inmates had their death sentences commuted as a result of their mental disabilites. Charles Michael Kight (IQ 68) Charlie Thompson (no IQ listed just mentally retarded), Kenneth Leroy Watson (IQ 73).

    5. Since 2002 CA, LA, OH, MO and TX have all commuted Death Penalty sentences for mentally retarded inmates with IQs higher than that of Martin Grossman.

    6. At the time of the murder, Martin Grossman was diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia and other cognitive disorders in addition to his mental retardation.

    7. The Rabbis, Pope and other callers were not asking that Martin Grossman be set free, only that the Governor grant a 60 day stay of execution so that the Judge might reconsider the Death Penalty in light of the 2002 Supreme Court ruling (Atkins v. Virginia). The Supreme Court ruled in that case that it is cruel and unusual punishment to execute a mentally retarded inmate (in this case a man who has a mental age of 4 years and 7 months) for crimes that he could not have possibly had the mental capacity to fully understand while committing them. The Death penalty is only for first degree murder. Can a man who is mentally 4 years old, EVER commit a truly premeditated crime?

    8. The blame in this case should appropriately go to the State of FL. Martin Grossman was a disabled adult with the mental capacity of a four year old in addition to being a schizophrenic. It is absurd that such an individual should be out and about without supervision. Grossman was already on parole in the State of FL. An impaired adult such as Grossman should have been placed in a group setting with appropriate supervision.

    Margaret Park's death is tragic and the suffering of her family should not be minimized in this case. However, the blame for Margaret Park's death should be placed on the State of Florida and its abysmal lack of social and educational services.

    And yes, I would rather pay a State income tax (but stopping Gov't corruption would be better) than continue to see the vast numbers of tragically neglected mentally retarded and mentally ill people roaming the streets in Florida as is the situation now. I am told is vastly improved compared to what it was 25 years ago when Martin Grossman went to jail.

    I hope that this will shed some light on this tragic situation and perhaps explain why so many Rabbis and community leaders got involved in this case.

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  14. Yes, Y.N. is very snide as Rav Eidensohn is far from alone in his views.

    The Briskers and the Mirrers have long had a problem with the American Moetzes who R' Berel in his sharfkeit says are decided by a combination of politics and expert photography. The Mirrers wonder if a college degree is the main criteria to be seated there, view most Agudah events as bittul Torah and are appalled by many of their decisions and hashkofos.

    The American Moetzes has also disregarded the views of much bigger gedolim in Eretz Yisroel while embarking on a path that is undoubtably keneged the Torah on child abuse. Non-Moetzes gedolim in America have protested this, dehaynu Rav Pam, R' Avigdor Miller and others.

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  15. PS. I would also like to see some attention paid to child abuse.

    For example, in Hollywood FL, there is a youth director in an Orthodox shul who is a fugitive from an open arrest warrant in Georgia, where he was charged with felony child abuse.

    The supporting court documents (psych reports) attest that he had sexually abused a 6 year old (I can provide a copy of the warrant and also all of the supporting court documents).

    Neither Georgia nor Florida will pay to extradite, so he continues to work unsupervised with young children and to give private Bar Mitzvah lessons in his house.

    The Rabbis in the area shuls have each been provided copies of the open arrest warrant as well as the supporting court documents.

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  16. Actually, Rav Pam was a dissenting voice on the Moetzes who would protest when the Agudah would follow aitzos from lawyers on how to protect their assets instead of the Torah.

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  17. Where does Jersey Girl get her data from?

    A doctor told me that borderline retardation is 65 IQ.

    And how do you know that Grossman has "other" cognitive disabilities in the plural?

    And you are out of your mind if you think he belongs in a home. Even if you are correct he belongs in a ward for the criminally insane because he can kill over nothing.

    And Jersey Girl has complained ad naseum about how she has no money. Now she wants to pay more taxes?

    And it would be nice if she showed a little of this rachmonus she has to gerei tzedek.

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  18. I don't know that a 77 IQ is a defense al pi Hatorah for committing murder.

    According to R' Elchonon, let's say you have a primitive cannibal who grew up tinok shenishba in such a tribe. He is still chayav misa since people are implanted with an inherent ability to know that such a thing is evil even without any chinuch whatsoever.

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  19. Ombudsman, your point is irrelevant to my previous point.

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  20. let's have have some seichel for a changeFebruary 18, 2010 at 11:00 AM

    Yasher koach R. Eidensohn for pointing out the problems with the Grossman fiasco.

    Vos iz neias had a great editorial, which got a lot of attention, also a voice of sanity, condemning the madness. You can see it at http://www.vosizneias.com/49584/2010/02/17/new-york-editorial-a-postmortem-on-the-grossman-execution

    By the way, re the mental retardation argument - I heard on the radio that the governor said that with the actions Grossman took after the crime to cover it up, like burning his clothes, he didn't seem so stupid.

    The frum world has so many problems, it should work on them, instead of wasting so much time, money, and energy defending criminals.

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  21. Here are some thoughts on the Grossman fiasco, which might help people understand how the whole thing unfolded, and how we could perhaps avoid such in future.

    The way it unfolded is as follows, as it seems to me. The whole fiasco was unleashed by the Lubavitcher Aleph institute in FL. They are an outfit that deals with Jewish prisoners. As an organization that deals with prisoners and one based in FL, they knew about this case, while others did not. They have been for years claiming things like 'the Torah is against incarceration'. They like to dictate to the benevolent government under which they live, how to conduct their criminal justice system based on the teachings of the leader of their Lubavitcher sect. Also, certain teachings from the Tanya influence them, vedai lechakima biremiza. They then drew in some Satmar from Williamsburg, people who tend to have knee jerk reactions when they hear of a Jew in danger, even if the person is not exactly pure like snow. Then they drew in NCYI (which likes to team up with right winger, to show that they are not as modern as they were in the past), then somehow, surprisingly, it seems that O-U signed on (it is important to point out however, that not all of those who signed on, had the same position necessarily. Some may have just wanted a stay and a review just to make sure the defendants case was made properly, while others were dead set against an execution under any circumstances). Then the thing started snowballing and others signed on as well, such as AIA, with David Zweibel getting involved, Rabbinical Alliance, ABD of Edah Haredis in J'lem R. Y.T. Weiss, Sekulener Rebbe, lihavdil Alan Dershowitz, and then, toward the end, even RY's of BMG in Lakewood. The rhetoric got heated. Kids were given sheets to take home from school for the cause.

    We should have learned from the Lipa fiasco that when we are told that we have to sign on to something quickly to prevent a looming disaster, it doesn't mean that we should not do due diligence to make sure that the cause is right. Haste makes waste. Pressure to do something fast should be a red flag that it may not be advisable. People should not just sign on since some respected names are shown to them as allegedly already having signed on. For one thing, such should be confirmed. Additionally, perhaps those figures were not given the whole story, but just a one-sided depiction. The 'heter meah rabbonim' style of proclamations (which itself is problematic even for a heter meah rabbonim) should be avoided.

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  22. Aaron S.:

    Yasher Koach for the mareh mekomos you provided.

    They answered a lot of questions on this situation with Reb Michoel Yechiel z”l Grossman.

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  23. And therefore, as a result of the above, every yehudi has a legal obligation of pikuach nefesh in saving this yehudi.

    See Chazon Ish Bava Kama 10:15, Meiri, Bava Metzia 83b and can be implied from Maimonides, Hilchos Rotzeach 2:4 and Tosafos, Sanhedren 20b; R. Moshe Sofer, Chasam Sofer Likkutim responsa no. 14.
    ==================
    You really missed the point. Rav Moshe says there are two different systems. The Torah system has precise rules and obligations. But there is a second one which is determined by the needs of the society. Rav Moshe is telling the governor that he has the right according to halacha to make and observe laws which are done for the welfare of that society. That governor does not need rabbinic approval nor does Rav Moshe say that these laws are dependent upon rabbinic approval.

    Another example of this is the famous tshuva of the Mahram Shick

    Maharam Shick (C.M. 50): [In the case of someone’s brother who had died suddenly and his sister﷓in﷓law is suspected of poisoning her husband. Based on Bava Metzia (83b) regarding R’ Eliezer catching Jewish robbers for the Roman the halacha would allow reporting her to the police.]. While that is the halacha, nevertheless that gemora itself indicates that it is inappropriate for gedolim to be the ones to report the transgressor to the secular authorities. This is also the view of the Rashba cited by the Beis Yosef (C.M. 388). An even greater proof against reporting transgressors to secular authorities – even when there is a possible danger in not reporting – is found in the Rambam. The Rambam (Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 5:5) writes that if non﷓Jews specify which Jew they want and they will kill all the Jews if he isn’t handed over – they should give him over. However the Rambam notes that if that wanted Jew deserves the death penalty he can be given over to save the others – but this halacha is not to be publicized. This is also the view of the Yerushalmi (Terumos 8:4)…. Consequently while one should not protest against those who follow the straight halacha and report the criminal to the authorities - which has many poskim to rely on - nevertheless the gedolim should not get involved in reporting these crimes but rather should be passive. This is as we saw with Shimon ben Shetach who did not have proper evidence that someone was a murderer - even though it was obvious – and therefore he did nothing. Also look at Sheilas Yaavetz (2:9)….

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  24. DT: I believe you misquoted the Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 5:5 where you wrote "if non-Jews specify which Jew they want and they will kill all the Jews if he isn’t handed over – they should give him over."

    I believe Rambam say the opposite. That we SHOULDN'T give him over. Can you double check/clarify please?

    In any event, the Rambam is saying he should be handed over IF he is chayiv misa. In the Grossman case he was NOT, as Aaron S. demonstrated. So our obligations of pikuach nefesh towards Mr. Grossman fully applied.

    And Rav Moshe is telling Pres. Reagan in his teshuva above the halachas of Mitzvos Beni Noach -- as they apply in a Bnei Noach court towards rulings over other Bnei Noach -- not yidden, as Aaron demonstrated from the mareh mekomos.

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  25. Honestly, I was not emotionally invested in this case at all. Perhaps a fault of mine, but I would not have gone to bat for this guy. Nevertheless, I applaud anyone who felt the need to do so. However, any harassment of the victim's family and/or the Governor caused such a great chillul Hashem, that we were better off doing nothing at all.
    If only we were so vigilant in the defense of our holy Yiddishe neshomas being destroyed by sexual abusers in our community.

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  26. DT: I believe you misquoted the Rambam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 5:5 where you wrote "if non-Jews specify which Jew they want and they will kill all the Jews if he isn’t handed over – they should give him over."

    I believe Rambam say the opposite. That we SHOULDN'T give him over. Can you double check/clarify please?
    ============
    I stand by what I wrote

    רמב"ם יסודי התורה ה

    הלכה ה
    נשים שאמרו להם עובדי כוכבים תנו לנו אחת מכן ונטמא אותה ואם לאו נטמא את כולכן יטמאו כולן ואל ימסרו להם נפש אחת מישראל, וכן אם אמרו להם עובדי כוכבים תנו לנו אחד מכם ונהרגנו ואם לאו נהרוג כולכם, יהרגו כולם ואל ימסרו להם נפש אחת מישראל, ואם יחדוהו להם ואמרו תנו לנו פלוני או נהרוג את כולכם, אם היה מחוייב מיתה כשבע בן בכרי יתנו אותו להם, ואין מורין להם כן לכתחלה, ואם אינו חייב מיתה יהרגו כולן ואל ימסרו להם נפש אחת מישראל.

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  27. See Chazon Ish Bava Kama 10:15, Meiri, Bava Metzia 83b and can be implied from Maimonides, Hilchos Rotzeach 2:4 and Tosafos, Sanhedren 20b; R. Moshe Sofer, Chasam Sofer Likkutim responsa no. 14.
    ==============
    It is interesting your selective quoting. The Meiri understanding oges against the Rashba and Ritva, Beis Yosef and others who agree with R' Eleazer Ben R Shimon. This is also the view of Rav Eliashiv and Rav Moshe Halberstam.

    I don't have the Chazon Ish and your other sources you say don't explicty state this.

    Therefore you are ignoring the normative halacha l'maaseh and pull out minority opinions - don't buy it

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  28. Right, I forgot that it is snide to point out that you are going against the Gedolei Yisroel across the board.

    That's a really broad brush you have there. I bet I could paint a barn with it in under 5 minutes.

    BTW, snide doesn't what you think it means.

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  29. And it would be nice if she showed a little of this rachmonus she has to gerei tzedek.

    Well, blood is thick than water for some people.

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  30. Minority? Those are majority opinions. The normative halacha.

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  31. I cannot believe that you were against the efforts to save the life of a fellow Jew.What a shame.
    The Martin Grosssman who was executed 2 days ago was a completely different person than the Martin who committed the crime 25 years ago. He truly regretted his crime and said so long before Gov Crist signed his death warrant.In his last few minutes he agin expressed remorse for his crime when he had noone to impress. His last 2 words were " Ahavas Yisroel" something you seem to be lacking.

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  32. Y.N. said...

    Minority? Those are majority opinions. The normative halacha.
    ============
    simple arirthmetic - you cite two views Chazon Ish and Meiri - the other you say can be understood your way but don't explicitly say it.

    I cited, Rashba, Ritva, Beis Yosef,Maharam Shick, Rav Eliashiv, Rav Halberstam and the Igros Moshe

    What makes your two sources the majority?

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  33. Unbelievable how these "know it alls" think that Rav Eidensohn would misquote a befeirushe Rambam.

    Their agendas and am haaratzus are always evident but especially when it comes to this Rambam. It should be poshut but the Brisker Rov pointed out that how the masa umatan between Yosef and the shvotim follows this Rambam to a tee. People like YN therefore don't even have a grasp of Chumash.

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  34. American Rabbi - You are certainly quick to judge. Shame on you.

    I wish his last words were "I am terribly sorry for the pain that I have caused the family of the victim".

    I have ahavas Yisroel, do you?

    I admitted my flaw regarding this particular case, but you come off far more pompous than righteous.

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  35. Archie Bunker: Don't bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and try sheker to change the discussion.

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  36. American rabbi,

    Your personal attack on Rav Eidensohn is a very poor reflection on yourself.

    I suggest you learn the sugya beiyun before making anymore public proclamations.

    As we know from Shas, there are times when teshuva is too late for Olam Hazeh and when we must be choshesh for aivah.

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  37. People like Yaakov are typical of the programmed fanatics who post at Eckstein's website.

    How sad.

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  38. Archie Bunker:
    I am not interested in having a "pilpul" here. My comment was that to oppose the efforts to save the life of a Jew shows a big lack of Ahavas Yisroel. Especially in this case where Martin changed so much. I stand by my comment and I am waiting for Rabbi Eidensohn to retract his criticism or show how he has Ahavas Yisroel.

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  39. People like Srchie Bunker are typical of the programmed fanatics who post at sites like VIN and UOJ.

    How pathetic.

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  40. archie bunker said...

    ... As we know from Shas, there are times when teshuva is too late for Olam Hazeh and when we must be choshesh for aivah....
    -------------------------------

    in american society there is almost nothing worse than a cop killer.
    law enforcement types tend to stick together and support each other.
    when a cop killer is at large they will stop everything and use all resources to apprehend him.
    can you imagine how they feel about jews supporting someone who murdered a (female) cop?

    ReplyDelete
  41. "Martin Grossman, who has an IQ of 77 (making him borderline retarded), was 19 years old at the time. He was a poorly educated, highly medicated and drug ‎dependent young delinquent.‎

    ‎ -Martin was a drug addict. He had been taking prescription barbiturates ‎‎(Phenobarbital) for seizures since early childhood and developed an addiction ‎to other prescription and illegal drugs. On the night of the struggle that was ‎resulted in Peggy's death, Martin was on all kinds of drugs including PCP, ‎Cocaine, Crystal Meth and other pills that clouded his judgment.‎"

    “Even those who strongly support capital punishment would limit it to recidivists or people who ‎commit the most heinous of crimes. Martin Grossman fits neither of those categories. He does ‎not belong on death row. His crime, committed when he was a teenager, was unplanned, ‎unpremeditated and impulsive - the product of a serious mental illness, that can now be proved ‎by medical technology that was unavailable at the time of his sentencing. "

    "-False Testimony Charles Brewer, a fellow inmate in 1985 gave ‎testimony for the government. Subsequently he provided a very ‎disturbing affidavit that states that his testimony was tempered and ‎driven even falsely by the government. What is most disturbing is that he ‎appears to have been a critical witness without whom the government, ‎bringing into question whether the strength of the case without Brewer ‎who admits his testimony was tainted and procured. Moreover, without ‎Parks, the case relied on such witnesses as Brewer, Taylor, and others ‎who all had something to gain by lying or embellishing, which may have ‎at the very least made the difference between life and the death ‎sentence.‎"

    "‎-Death Penalty reserved for "worst of worst". Only 3% of people ‎convicted of murder are sentenced to death. Although any murder is ‎despicable, capital punishment is generally reserved for cold, calculated, ‎heinous murders. This is a case of drugged up, mildly ‎retarded teenager who panicked, not a cold calculated murder ‎

    -Crime was NOT premeditated in the sense that he did not set ‎out to kill anyone much less an officer of the law: A drug-‎addicted, intellectually slow and emotionally immature youth on ‎probation shot Margaret Parks after she surprised him and ‎threatened to report him for breaching probation. He panicked ‎trying to retrieve the gun she confiscated and after a struggle which ‎he unquestionably started, but during which Officer Parks drew her ‎weapon and fired, he gained control of her weapon (not the one ‎she had confiscated) and fired shooting her to death. Martin did not ‎make any deliberate decision to kill! "

    ‎ ‎
    http://www.chabadbeaches.com/templates/page_cdo/aid/1121917

    Psych Report from 1990-

    http://www.chabadbeaches.com/templates/page_cdo/aid/1125772

    Yes blood IS thicker than water.

    We are supposed to help our relatives and neighbors before reaching out to strangers. That is the halacha.

    Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may live, and inherit the land which the Lord your God gives you. (Deut. 16:18-20)

    I am in the company of many renown legal and psych. experts in my belief that justice was not served in the case of Martin Grossman.

    ReplyDelete
  42. In case my other post did not successfully post, here it the case for clemency for Martin Grossman.

    http://www.chabadbeaches.com/templates/page_cdo/aid/1121917


    Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may live, and inherit the land which the Lord your G-d gives you. (Deut. 16:18-20)

    ReplyDelete
  43. mentally retarded baal tshuvah???February 18, 2010 at 4:01 PM

    I don't get it. On the one hand they claim that Martin was mentally retarded, having trouble distinguishing right from wrong (which I don't buy, see Governor's response re actions taken to cover up crime), but now they claim they he changed so much, became a big tzaddik/baal teshuvah. If he couldn't distinguish right from wrong, how could he have repented, changed so much?

    The thing is laughable.

    If he became such a big tzaddik, Lubavitch should have buried him in their cemetery near the Rebbe.

    ReplyDelete
  44. To "mentally retarded"
    Your comment is both stupid and cruel.I am surprised that he published it.
    The Torah says"Lo Saamod al Dam Raecha" Concerning this the Rambam paskens in the laws of Rotzeach chapter 1 law 14 that one must do everthing possible to save the life of a fellow Jew.One who does not is transgressing this Lav.

    ReplyDelete
  45. The Torah says"Lo Saamod al Dam Raecha" Concerning this the Rambam paskens in the laws of Rotzeach chapter 1 law 14 that one must do everthing possible to save the life of a fellow Jew.One who does not is transgressing this Lav.
    =============
    Why don't you try a more constructive approach. Explain to me how your understanding fits with the sources I cited. Do you think there a limit to "everything possible". Would you mortgage your house? Would you kill?

    Also you label yourself as "American Rabbi" - what yeshiva did you learn in ?

    BTW you are mistranslating this Rambam. He does not say that you must do everything possible. He says if you can save him. He says nothing about saving when it comes at a cost such as spending money, or taking a loss in business or causing aivah or disrupting society

    רמב"ם רוצח ושמירת הנפש א:יד

    כל היכול להציל ולא הציל עובר על +ויקרא י"ט ט"ז+ לא תעמוד על דם רעך, וכן הרואה את חבירו טובע בים או ליסטים באים עליו או חיה רעה באה עליו ויכול להצילו הוא בעצמו או שישכור אחרים להצילו ולא הציל, או ששמע גוים או מוסרים מחשבים עליו רעה או טומנין לו פח ולא גלה אוזן חבירו והודיעו, או שידע בגוי או באנס שהוא קובל על חבירו ויכול לפייסו בגלל חבירו ולהסיר מה שבלבו ולא פייסו, וכל כיוצא בדברים אלו, העושה אותם עובר על לא תעמוד על דם רעך.

    ReplyDelete
  46. American Rabbi - You do agree that any harassment and/or name calling of the victim's family or the Governor committed by Yidden is a chillul Hashem, right?

    ReplyDelete
  47. itchitmayer - Not a single comment said such harrasment was okay, so there is no reason you even need to ask.

    ReplyDelete
  48. itchitmayer - Not a single comment said such harrasment was okay, so there is no reason you even need to ask.
    =============
    Sorry but he made the comment that one must do everything that he can to free a Jew. If he thought that harassment would do the job then he obviously would require it.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Yaakov says that Archie has his head in the sand when it is he who has the middah of an ostrich.

    Yeshiva World is full of condoning such chilul Hashem.

    Eckstein is very careful to censor anyone not agreeing with his views.

    ReplyDelete
  50. If harassing them would have saved a Jewish life, I'm all for it 1,000%.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Rabbi Eidensohn
    I was not translating the Rambam literally but its clear from his words that we have an obligation to try and save the life of a fellow Jew.
    The last Yeshiva I learned in was MTJ. BTW I own a copy of your sefer Yad Moshe.
    I am especially hurt to see a religious and learned man such as yourself criticizing the efforts to save the life of a fellow Jew.

    ReplyDelete
  52. American Rabbi said...

    Rabbi Eidensohn
    I was not translating the Rambam literally but its clear from his words that we have an obligation to try and save the life of a fellow Jew.
    The last Yeshiva I learned in was MTJ. BTW I own a copy of your sefer Yad Moshe.
    I am especially hurt to see a religious and learned man such as yourself criticizing the efforts to save the life of a fellow Jew.
    =================
    You really missed my point. I am not criticizing trying to save the life of a fellow Jew. I also sent in an email the governor. I was addressing two issues 1) The mistaken insistance that capital punishment by a non-Jewish society is against the Torah 2) the ones who agreed with your translation of "everything must be done" and ignored that other factors such as aivah need to be taken into consideration.

    I am astonished that someone who learned in MTJ doesn't understanding the multiple factors that go into psak and just says "everything must be done". You translation not only is not literal it is wrong and a significant distortion of halacha.

    In sum - I am all in favor of saving another Jews life - but there are other factors. Just as the Rambam allows a Jew to be given over to goyim to be killed in certain circumstances and in other circumstances it is prohibited.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Missing the forest for the treesFebruary 18, 2010 at 5:43 PM

    And getting the goyim upset can harm the life of more than one of Klal Yisroel, chas vesholom.

    ReplyDelete
  54. "1) The mistaken insistance that capital punishment by a non-Jewish society is against the Torah"
    ===============
    That's a gross mischaracterization of the Grossman case. Most Jews support a non-Jewish society's right to have a death penalty, per the quoted Igros Moshe.

    This is a case of a non-Jewish society imposing misa upon a yid, which is a seperate halachic issue than it imposing it upon a nochri.

    "2) the ones who agreed with your translation of "everything must be done" and ignored that other factors such as aivah need to be taken into consideration."
    =============
    Which source ever mentions eivah is a consideration? None that you've quoted. Maybe another consideration should be if saving the yid's life will cause you to miss your sons soccer game and your some will be hurt because of that??

    ReplyDelete
  55. Pikuach Nefesh Doche Kol HaTorah Kula.

    ReplyDelete
  56. "It is an issur d'Oraysa to get high with drugs or alcohol."
    ===================

    Ombudsman-
    Could you provide a source for this halakhic statement please?

    (because I for one am inclined to think you're making that up. If it turns out not to be so, I apologize.)

    ReplyDelete
  57. I wish his last words were "I am terribly sorry for the pain that I have caused the family of the victim".
    ==========================

    itchiemayer,

    It would appear he said almost exactly that:
    http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/feb/16/161846/us-supremem-couirt-refuses-block-grossman-executio/news-breaking/

    ReplyDelete
  58. Dave said...

    Pikuach Nefesh Doche Kol HaTorah Kula.

    ===============
    Simply not so. Can you kill as person to save a life? Can you worship idols to save a life? Can you commit incest? Can you steal? Can you take a kidney from someone to save a life?

    If there is a possibility of causing aivah and thus endangering lifes of other Jews - it definitely wont be permitted.

    Furthermore the Rambam that we cited before says you can sacrifice the life of a person who is deserves capital punishment in order to save the lives other Jews.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Derech eretz kadma leTorahFebruary 18, 2010 at 6:50 PM

    Dave talks like a mechutzef

    ReplyDelete
  60. If there is a possibility of causing aivah and thus endangering lifes of other Jews - it definitely wont be permitted.
    =======================
    Ahh, now you say it based upon risking other Jewish lives. Different issue then. Not plain "eivah", where the gentile will dislike -- yet not kill -- Jews.

    Furthermore the Rambam that we cited before says you can sacrifice the life of a person who is deserves capital punishment in order to save the lives other Jews.
    =================
    Ahh, someone "who deserves capital punishment (per Torah law.) Again, a separate variable.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Rav Moshe says when there is aivah it endangers lives.

    regarding the issue of whether he needs to be deserving the death penalty

    It is a dispute between Reish Lakish and R' Yochanon.

    בית הבחירה למאירי מסכת סנהדרין דף עב עמוד ב

    בתלמוד המערב סיעת בני אדם מהלכין בדרך ופגעו בהם גוים ואמרו תנו לנו אחד מכם ונהרגהו ואם לאו הרי אנו הורגין את כלכם יהרגו כלם ואל ימסרו נפש אחת מישראל למדת שאף בהצלת עצמו ואף יחיד בהצלת רבים אין דוחין נפש מפני נפש ואפי' קטן מפני גדול כמו שביארנו מ"מ אמרו שם שאם ייחדוהו להם כשבע בן בכרי כלומר תנו לנו את פלוני ונהרגהו ואם לאו נהרג את כלכם ימסרוהו להם כל שיש בו הצלת שנים בשביל אחד אלא שאמרו שם אמר ריש לקיש והוא שנתחייב מיתה כשבע בן בכרי ור' יוחנן אמר אע"פ שלא נתחייב מיתה ויראה כר' יוחנן שהרי כל שנחלקו שניהם הלכה כמותו וכ"ש בתלמוד שלו ומעתה אם לא נתחייב מיתה כל שאמר תנהו לי ואם לאו הריני הורג אותך יהרג ואל ימסרוהו שאין לו לדחות את זה מפני עצמו אבל אם אמר הריני הורג את כלכם או אתה והוא ימסרהו ואל יהרגו שניהם או כלם ואם נתחייב מיתה אם בדיני ישראל ימסרהו אף להצלת עצמו ויראה לי אף להצלת אחר ואם אינו חייב בדיני ישראל הרי הוא כישראל בעלמא הא כל להצלת רבים אפילו לא נתחייב מיתה או שנתחייב ולא בדיננו הואיל וייחדוהו מותר אלא שמדת חסידות לעכב וליתן מתון בדבר עד דכדוכה של נפש וכל שממהר בכך הפקיע מעליו מדת חסידות והוא שאמרו שם עילא בר קיסר תבעתיה מלכותא ערק ללוד גבי ר' יהושע בן לוי אתון אקפון מדינתא אמרין אין לית אתון יהבין לן אנן מחרבין מדינתא סלק גביה ר' יהושע בן לוי פייסיה ויהביה לון הוה אליהו זכור לטוב יליף מתגלי ליה ולא איתגלי צם כמה צומין אתגלי ליה אמר ליה ולמסור אנא מתגלי אמר ליה ולאו משנה שלימה עשיתי אמר ליה וכי משנת חסידים היא זו ויראה לי שלא אמרה אלא על שמיהר את הדבר ולא המתין עד שיראה אם יחריבו את העיר אם לאו ומ"מ י"מ שלא על מדת חסידות לבד היה מתרעם עליו אלא מן הדין וממה שלא היה חייב מיתה בדיני ישראל ומכאן פסקו כריש לקיש שאמר והוא שמחוייב מיתה כשבע בן בכרי ופירשו בו שיהא מחוייב מיתה בדיני ישראל והדברים ברורים כדעת ראשון ולפי דרכך למדת במה שאמרו מאי חזית דדמא דידך וכו' דוקא כשאמר לו קטליה לפלניא ואי לא קטילנא לך אבל אם אמר לו קטליה לפלניא ואי לא קטילנא לדידיה ולדידך מותר לו להרגו ומ"מ יראה שלא הותר אלא למסרו לו שמא יקח ממנו כפר או יתחרט עליו אבל להרגו בידים לא:

    ReplyDelete
  62. ט"ז יורה דעה סימן קנז ס"ק ח

    (ח) חייב מיתה כשבע בן בכרי. - נראה דלהכי נקטיה כשבע בן בכרי דאע"פ דבדין תורה לא היה חייב מיתה אלא מצד חוק המלכות שמרד בדוד מ"מ מוסרין אותו אם יחדוהו ומינה אף בזמנינו מי שפושע ומורד במלכות שלו מוסרין אותו וה"ה בשאר עבירות שאחד מוחזק בהם כגון עוסק בזיופי' או שאר דברים שיש בהם סכנה פשיטא שמוסרין אותו ומן הראוי למסור אותו אפי' אם לא יחדוהו כיון שהוא כמו רודף לשאר ישראל ע"י מעשיו הרעים שעושה בפשיעה כן נראה לי בזה ועוד נראה לי דבמקום שאין מוסרין אותו אין חילוק בין מסירה למיתה או לשאר יסורים או אפילו לממון דלענין יסורים פשיטא שהם גרועים ממיתה כדאמרינן באלו נערות (דף ל"ג) אלמלא נגדוהו לחנניא מישאל ועזריה הוה פלחו לצלמא ויליף מזה דיסורים קשים ממיתה ויליף דמלקות חמור ממיתה וראיה דהא בירושלמי לא קאמר תבעיתיה מלכא להריגה אלא סתם תבעיתיה אפשר ליסורין לחוד (ואין) [ויש] לנו להחמיר מספק ואפי' לממון מצינו בפרק הגוזל בתרא דקאמר על זה קרא כתוא מכמר כיון שנפל בידי עובדי כוכבים שוב אין מרחמין עליו כן נראה לע"ד:

    ReplyDelete
  63. Yes blood IS thicker than water.

    We are supposed to help our relatives and neighbors before reaching out to strangers. That is the halacha.


    גרי צדק are our relatives and neighbors. That is the הלכה.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I have not yet met a "Ger" or "Geyoret" whose gerut was accepted/recognized by the Israeli Rabbinute.

    So I have not yet had the opportunity to show ahavat et hager.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Reb daas torah: i have lost all respect for you.How dare you say it was asserted to call the govonor a nazi or harrass the family.No one called for that.Just the oppisite,all the appeals to contact the govonor stated that you should do so with respect and some said to plead.No one issued any appeal to contact the family at all.

    ReplyDelete
  66. B said...

    Reb daas torah: i have lost all respect for you.How dare you say it was asserted to call the govonor a nazi or harrass the family.No one called for that.Just the oppisite,all the appeals to contact the govonor stated that you should do so with respect and some said to plead.No one issued any appeal to contact the family at all.
    ==================
    You have a reading comprehension problem. In addition you seem to have failed bother reading the other comments on this posting which deal with this issue.

    Let me repeat my point:
    You really missed my point. I am not criticizing trying to save the life of a fellow Jew. I also sent in an email the governor. I was addressing two issues 1) The mistaken insistance that capital punishment by a non-Jewish society is against the Torah 2) the ones who agreed with your translation of "everything must be done" and ignored that other factors such as aivah need to be taken into consideration.

    ReplyDelete
  67. I don't have a reading comprehension problem.How else do you explain what you clearly wrote.It was asseted evreything must be done even calling the govonor a nazi etc...No such assertion was ever made.Also, i take offence that you say there was a mistake notion,no one i knew said the govonor was wrng with the death penalty.What we argued was the factors in the case.including false witnesses.

    ReplyDelete
  68. 1) The mistaken insistance that capital punishment by a non-Jewish society is against the Torah
    ===============
    The vast majority of those advocating to save this yid's life support the secular death penalty. (And rightfully so. And even with this aforementioned support, legitimately wished to save Reb Michoel Yechiel's life.) So this point is moot.

    2) the ones who agreed with your translation of "everything must be done" and ignored that other factors such as aivah need to be taken into consideration.
    ==============
    Which source ever mentions eviah in particular must be considerer above that of pikuach nefesh?

    ReplyDelete
  69. B said...

    I don't have a reading comprehension problem.How else do you explain what you clearly wrote.It was asseted evreything must be done even calling the govonor a nazi etc...No such assertion was ever made.Also, i take offence that you say there was a mistake notion,no one i knew said the govonor was wrng with the death penalty.What we argued was the factors in the case.including false witnesses.
    =============
    Let's take it step by step. 1) were there people who called the governor a Nazi? 2) Were there people who asserted that everything must be done to save Grossman's life since we know that nothing is more important than pikuach nefesh?- even here in the comments section? 3) Did the ones who called the governor a Nazi feel that for saving a life you can use any means? and thus these people asserted that harassment is non-Jews is justified to save life even if it causes aivah? 4) Thus since you don't know anyone who felt this way or acted this way that means it didn't happen.

    Your points seems to be that since there were genuine concerns that could be expressed without abusing others and that all those that you know followed this civilized and responsible path - my accusations are false.

    The above logic is what I disagree with. You might reread the comments of Dave and American Rabbi

    ReplyDelete
  70. BLI NEDER I WILL RESPOND AFTER SHABBOS,STAY TUNED.p.s.PLEAES SHOW ME WHERE HE WAS CALLED A NAZI.

    ReplyDelete
  71. I have not yet met a "Ger" or "Geyoret" whose gerut was accepted/recognized by the Israeli Rabbinute.

    So I have not yet had the opportunity to show ahavat et hager.


    Outside of Israel, would that mean not recognizing any convert?

    ReplyDelete
  72. Converts whose conversions are accepted in Israel are recognized everywhere.

    Individuals whose Jewish status is accepted in Israel are Jewish everywhere.

    Real life case in point:

    There is a woman who is the product of an intermarriage between a Jewish man and a German woman (she is over 60 now).

    She tried to marry in Israel 35 years ago and was told that she is not Jewish and cannot marry a Jew.

    She and her Israeli husband came to America and a Chabad Rabbi here married them. She never underwent any conversion even though on occasion she tells people she is a "convert".

    I verified this with the Chabad Rabbi who married them. He told me that "she did not need a conversion because in his opinion, she is 100% Jewish". He claims that a famous mekubal told him that she is really Jewish even though her mother was a Gentile and on that basis he performed the marriage.

    When I told this Rabbi that I know for a fact that the Israeli Rabbinute thoroughly investigated her background for several months hoping to find that she had maternal Jewish ancestry and found none, this Rabbi told me that this did not matter. In his opinion she is Jewish.

    The children of this union were educated in the local yeshivas and the son of this woman became a principal of a Jewish school.

    Meanwhile, about 15 years ago, the husband found his wife in bed with the Mexican gardener (really)and divorced her. She has had a number of affairs with Gentile men which she openly flaunts.

    The husband has married a Jewish woman and has nothing to do with the children from his first marriage who are in their 30s now.

    The males from this woman are counted for a minyan, recommended for shidduchim and are considered fully Jewish by the Rabbis here, both the Chabad Rabbis and the Yeshivishe Rabbis.

    I have verified that all of this information is 100% true with both Israeli and local Rabbis. The local Rabbis all know that this woman was denied marriage to a Jew in Israel because her mother is not Jewish.

    I can provide names and other details for Rabbi Eidensohn.

    I can also provide names and other details for many cases (offhand I can think of a dozen) very similar to this one, where an individual was told in Israel that he/she is not eligible to marry a Jew and a Chabad or other community Rabbi in America, being fully aware of this married him/her to a Jew anyway.

    Here is another case in point:

    A man I know is the son of Gerrer Chassidim, elderly Holocaust survivors who went to live in Crown Hts after the war. He was educated by Lubavitch and considers himself a Lubavitcher Chassid.

    He married a woman who is a Baalas Teshuva with a Gentile father of Portuguese descent.

    His eldest daughter is engaged to a South American Hispanic man who Chabad considers a "Bnai Anusim". He has not had any conversion because Chabad (at least here) considers him and all other Hispanics to be 100% Jewish.

    This man is not recognized as Jewish in Israel, and as such he is not recognized as Jewish in the Sephardic community, therefore this marriage which is being performed by a local Chabad Rabbi is considered an intermarriage by our Rabbis who have placed themselves under the Chief Sephardic Rabbinute of Israel.

    Do you suggest that we disregard the Psak of the Chief Rabbi and the Rabbis of our community in order to treat anyone who claims to be Jewish (ie Reform and Conservative converts, Anusim, patrilineal descent, Kabbalah Learning Center) as Jews?

    ReplyDelete
  73. "I have not yet met a "Ger" or "Geyoret" whose gerut was accepted/recognized by the Israeli Rabbinute."

    Of course you haven't. You don't live in Israel. The Israeli Rabbinate does not act as a world-wide registry of converts. Converts only seek official acceptance/recognition by the Israeli Rabbinate if they live in Israel. Although the RCA/BDA has managed to maintain some form of a reciprocity agreement with the Rabbanut, the Rabbanut doesn't evaluate, much less make any statement about, the status of a particular RCA/BDA convert until said convert makes aliyah.

    Assuming that any convert who has not been officially accepted/recognized by the Israeli Rabbinate is not a valid convert shows a gross misunderstanding of the role of the Israeli Rabbinate.

    Further, your examples notwithstanding, there are most definitely converts in the US who are Shomrei Torah and Yirei Shamayim, and went through a complete conversion process. Are you saying that you have *never* met such a convert? If you haven't, you should get out more. If you have been assuming the worst of, and automaticaly dismissing the vailidity of, every convert you have come across, I guarantee you that you have been over on the issur of not oppressing a convert. To love and not oppress a convert are d'oraisa commandments. A safek about the status doesn't get you off the hook.

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  74. "Do you suggest that we ... treat anyone who claims to be Jewish (ie Reform and Conservative converts, Anusim, patrilineal descent, Kabbalah Learning Center) as Jews?"

    This is a poorly stated and misleading statement. We most certainly should treat anyone who claims to be Jewish as a Jew, GIVEN THAT no evidence to the contrary is known. Therefore, if someone you've never met and know nothing about tells you that he is Jewish, you should believe him. However that requirement goes out the window once you find out that he is, in fact, not Jewish (ie, as you say, Reform and Conservative converts, Anusim, patrilineal descent, Kabbalah Learning Center).

    Nevertheless, in day-to-day normal life, it's not your job to pepper every Joe Jew you meet with questions about their status. In most day-to-day situations, the actual status of a Jew does not matter, or is, at best, a d'rabbanan situation (and safek d'rabbanan l'kula).

    If you want to just avoid the "ick" factor of *maybe* being in the presence of a non-Jew and you *just* have to make sure...well, get over it.

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  75. What in the world are you going on about?

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  76. "Nevertheless, in day-to-day normal life, it's not your job to pepper every Joe Jew you meet with questions about their status."

    Why do you think that I "pepper" every Joe Jew I meet with questions about his/her status?

    Real Sephardic Jews can tell the difference between a Hispanic Gentile and another Sephardic Jew?

    Just as real Chassidim can tell the difference between other Chassidim and Amish Mennonites.

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  77. http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/story.aspx?storyid=125444

    Park says she was upset with some opponents of the execution including the Pope for stepping in and some Jewish groups which she said went too far. According to Park the family was harassed over the past week and she thinks it is reprehensible.

    However Park says she is glad that Grossman took responsibility, but says it was long overdue.

    http://www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/national_news/agudath_expresses_anguish_after_grossman_execution/17140

    “The tragic news out of Florida leaves us feeling deep anguish and sorrow,“Rabbi David Zwiebel, Agudath Israel of America’s executive vice president, said in a statement. “Mr. Grossman’s execution has hit our community very hard. He was a fellow Jew and so we saw him as a brother.”

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  78. http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=17490

    Look how everyone has lost their common sense when it comes to Grossman.

    Chabad lets Alan Dershowitz speak in a beis medrash. Dershowitz is a menuvol went off the derech after learning in Eitz Chaim yeshiva in Boro Park. He writes in his book "Chutzpah" that he vacations at a nudist beach in Nantucket.

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  79. http://www.vosizneias.com/49584

    All people were created in the image of Hashem and it is a horrific thing to snuff out the life of any individual. The Meshech Chochmah writes that the punishment for murder – Jew or gentile, is death. For a gentile victim the punishment is Misa Bidei Shamayim. A gentile court should definitely enforce its laws – and it is a good and proper thing to enforce the death penalty for murders.

    But even for those who disagree with this first point – there is another issue –the second point. A governor under significant political duress will never, ever commute a sentence. Once again to those who may have missed that previous sentence – a governor whose political future is in serious question will never alienate the civil service workers in his state – ever. Anyone with an ounce of political sense will know this to be true. One would have better luck selling Israeli Bonds at a Palestinian National Convention.

    With this in mind, how is it that the brightest and the best minds in our orthodox Jewish organizations attempted such a campaign when they new there was zero chance of it coming to fruition? The political damage to Orthodox Judaism was enormous. The harassment to the victim’s family was so significant that they actually asked the Jews to stop calling them and harassing them. Indeed, the family of this woman were called “Nazis” in asking for the death penalty being invoked here. Is this also not an enormous Chillul Hashem? How dare any of us call them Nazis.

    One phone caller to Governor Crist actually said, “By us.. the most important thing is a Jewish life.” What?? Is this person insane? Is this the message that we are giving- yes seek justice in every way, but when it comes to one of us – don’t mete out the punishment that the wheels of justice finally came up with – because this guy happens to be one of us.

    And don’t the people who run these organizations and campaigns realize that there will also be people in our camp who are not the brightest candles in the box who will make Chilul Hashems constantly and consistently when we ask them to take to the phones, emails, and letter writing? Numerous people have complaints against those who have signed off on hafganot in Yerushalayim because they do not rein in the mishugayim – why then did our organizations not do the same? Especially, when there was no gain here.

    A third point involves a re-examination of our role among the nations. One of the reasons for our galus is to bring the Umos haOlam to a realization of the yashrus of Darchei Hashem. When we place our interests above the public good in something so public – does that really further enhance yoisher and appreciation of the Darchei Hashem?
    Have we not taken the idea of “But is it good for the Jews?” to such an extreme level of absurdity that we apply it to the detriment of society around us? The question is not wrong, but it should be tempered with, “Is it good for the Jews and is it good for society?” If a Jewish young man is dealing drugs – that is bad for society – he should be punished – because what he has done is wrong, immoral and destroys the basic fabric of society around us. Every case is different and every situation should be judged on its own merit, but here we have a case where we seemed to have lost our judgment in what was an appropriate hishtadlus or not.

    True, what will be said is that we are ignoring the mitigating circumstances. The perpetrator was extremely sorry for what he had done, he was young, his IQ was low, he was either on alcohol or drugs, etc. They will point to the inherent unfairness of a situation where other people whose crimes are much worse receive much lighter sentences. This may all be true, but the fact is that an innocent young woman who dedicated her life to the betterment of the world – was brutally murdered with a bullet to her head. Crime must be punished. Vicious crimes must be punished even more. We must always do what is right – even when it hurts.

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  80. Is it true that the Lakewood roshei yeshiva, R' Shmuel Kaminetzky, R' Elya Ber Wachtfogel & R' Chaim Epstein all signed a kol korei that everyone should contact Gov. Crist?

    Didn't they have an inkling that the am haaratzim & low class people among us would make a chilul Hashem?

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  81. Mishtomem apparently all the R"Y's are not as wise as you and the other bloggers.

    The Gedolim should start reading blogs before deciding what to do...

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  82. OK smart alec Sammy, there is a reason why much bigger gedolim have refused to join to the Moetzes in the last 20 years and refused to sign every ridiculous piece of paper shoved in their faces. It has nothing to do with blogs.

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  83. How do I know that purposely getting high on drugs or alcohol is an issur d'Oraysah?

    Once when I was in mesivta, there was no dorm counsellor one night prompting one bochur to take advantage by getting drunk.

    A visiting rosh kollel who was speaking to bochurim in the dormitory was aghast. He admonished the bochur very strongly both while he was drunk and the next morning when he was sober. The bochur argued that he was not guilty of any davar assur which the rosh kollel disputed. He said that we know from sevara that it is an issur d'Oraysah because he is knowingly allowing himself to go into a matzev where he has no control over his behavior.

    I later discussed this issue with others and was told that Rav Dessler said something along these lines.

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  84. The Baalei Tosafos in Anglia wrote that one of the worst things to happen to Klal Yisroel was the goyim discovering ale.

    Every tzorah that happened on the British isles, including the harigos of Lincoln & York, was while the goyim were in a mass drunken stupor.

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  85. https://5tjt.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=215:grossman-versus-gilad&catid=2:international&Itemid=9

    Grossman versus Gilad

    International News
    on Thursday, February 18, 2010

    The incongruity is bizarre, to say the least.

    Lehavdil, two cases: both Jewish, both incarcerated, both struggling for life.

    And there the comparisons end.

    One was a national hero who fought for his country. The other was someone who brutally shot an officer in the head. One was a cause célèbre of major Jewish organizations and the subject of a massive email, phone call and letter writing campaign. The other, an innocent brave young man, had no such campaign behind him.
    How is it that we are standing idly by, doing nothing about Gilad Shalit, when a prisoner on death row gets such treatment?

    One may ask, but who can we write to? What can our efforts do?
    There are plenty of answers. How about Richard Goldstone or Jimmy Carter? If they got as many letters and phone calls about Gilad Shalit as did Governor Crist about Martin Grossman – they would certainly be motivated to speak out, and maybe just maybe they could move Hamas a little.
    And where are the Tehillim being recited? Why are there no campaigns Gilad Shalit?

    Perhaps the biggest z’chus to Martin Grossman might be the realization that we as a Jewish community can come together. If we can come together on so controversial a person as Martin Grossman, why can we not unite in our efforts to save Gilad Shalit?

    The answer is that we can, and the time has come.

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  86. Under the new Gerus Protocols of the RCA, any convert whose conversion was performed or accepted to the current standards of the RCA is also recognized in Israel.

    The RCA represents the majority of American Orthodox Rabbis.

    Many American "converts" I know of, since 2006 when it became well known that the majority of Diaspora conversions were not accepted in Israel have gone to Israel or to a Beis Din in the US that is acting on behalf of the Israeli Rabbinute to have their conversions "accepted" to the standards of the Rabbinute.

    I do not know of a single Diaspora convert whose conversion has been accepted under the current standards.

    This includes a couple we know well who were both converted more than 20 years ago and who wanted to make aliyah and retire in Israel. They were told that they were not accepted as Jewish in Israel.

    My sister in law's Chabad conversion l'chumra (her mother was converted in Phila by an Orthodox Rabbi) was also not accepted. So, according to the Israeli Rabbinute, my sister in law and my brothers children are not Jewish.

    As you can imagine this has put our family in a state of terrible turmoil since 2006 and has been the reason I have posted on this topic so frequently.

    Unfortunately, many others on this blog have misinterpreted my posts as being cruel to gerim, but this is not the case.

    I love my baby brother and his wife and children. But my sister in law is not Jewish according to the Israeli Rabbinute (and has this in writing) so how can we treat her as a Jew?

    How can we treat my brother as anything other than intermarried?

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  87. JG,

    Well, so much for the RCA's official statement that "The current system should in no way affect the status of conversions performed prior to its inception." http://www.judaismconversion.org/Past_Conversions.html

    I'm very sorry to hear about your brother and sister in law, as well as the older couple you know. It must be very difficult for you.

    Nevertheless, these are all cases for which you know the details of the circumstances quite well. How about the cases where you don't know the details? I'm curious, if you came across someone who's is obviously of non-Jewish parentage (e.g., Scandinavian, Asian, Black), at a shul or shabbat table and s/he behaves as a normal, frum Jew, how would you treat such a person?

    The one case I personally know of, where a convert re-examined his own past conversion due to the recent RCA/Rabbanut fracas, successfully obtained an Ishur Geirus from the BDA in 2008 regarding his original conversion of over 20 years ago. With the constant changes going on in Israel and it's Rabbanut, who's to say that's good enough for you, but it's certainly good enough for me. As for the other converts I don't know as well, I will continue to act with the chazaka that they are Jewish.

    In the cases that you know, what were the circumstances that prevented their conversions from being accepted? Also, is there something preventing them from undergoing a giyur lechumra now in a way that would satisfy the Israeli Rabbanut? If it's personal and you'd rather not discuss, I understand.

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  88. "Why do you think that I "pepper" every Joe Jew I meet with questions about his/her status?

    Real Sephardic Jews can tell the difference between a Hispanic Gentile and another Sephardic Jew?"

    Of course it's often easy to pick a convert out from a crowd! It doesn't take a genius. Let me make the question a bit more specific: how would you treat someone who is quite clearly a convert, and appears to be well-integrated Jewishly? Assuming he's not dating your daughter, would you treat him respectfully or bagder him with questions?

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  89. "if you came across someone who's is obviously of non-Jewish parentage (e.g., Scandinavian, Asian, Black), at a shul or shabbat table and s/he behaves as a normal, frum Jew, how would you treat such a person? "

    Judaism is not a race! There are no "obvious" non Jews based upon looks.

    My mother had red hair, green eyes and paper white skin. Everyone who met my mother thought she was Irish.

    My uncle has coffee colored skin and kinky hair. Everyone who meets my uncle thinks that he is African American.

    There is no such thing as "someone who's is obviously of non-Jewish parentage" based upon looks (Jorma Kaukonen is Jewish).

    However, it IS very easy to spot someone who was obviously not born Jewish because there are certain things that even the most assimilated Jewish mother teaches her children.

    When such a person is a guest in your house or comes to your shul it is appropriate to ask questions.
    (It might be pekuach nefesh!).

    We have a HUGE problem in our local shuls with people who dress up as Jews and come in to missionize.

    A true convert should not be able to be picked out in a crowd of Jews because a true convert is a Jew.

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  90. The conversions that I know of which were not accepted in Israel were all done to permit intermarriage.

    There is only one exception to this and that was a woman who converted to Judaism who was originally accepted in Israel, who made aliyah and then opened up a Jews for Jesus church. Her conversion was revoked and she was deported.

    The couple that I know who had both converted 20 years earlier were each married to Jews at the time of their conversion. They subsequently divorced and married each other. They were denied aliyah because their conversions were not accepted in Israel.

    We treat everyone we meet respectfully, whether he is a Jew or a Gentile.

    I am sure that you can understand why we do not invite Gentiles to our Shabbat table or do not want Gentiles in shul.

    When a person who is accepted as Jewish by the local Chabad (ie a Hispanic Gentile who considers himself a Bnai Anusim) comes to the Sephardic synagogue where he is not considered Jewish, we do not encourage him to stay because it could lead to intermarriage.

    I also do not think that you would want to find out that the Shabbos guest you have been having over for the past three weeks is a pedophile who is wanted in another State for felonious child abuse.

    It happened to us a few years ago and then again a few months ago. I asked questions, did a background check and did not invite either man to my house. My neighbor thought I was being overly paranoid and did have the first one as a Shabbos guest and he molested her child.

    I hope that this answers your questions.

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  91. The article qouted fron the five towns is a joke.Rav elyashiv shlitah has called for saying tehillim for schalit,AND LOADS OF CHAREIDI JEWS HAVE DONE SO.As for contacting jimmy carter,is the writer for real?When jimmy was is damascus to meet meshal ym"s,he proudly boasted that he had advised hamas about how they should settle for a good price for schalit.not he asked for mercy.

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  92. Emes Lane in Monsey is a short distance from Leib Tropper’s Kol Yaakov on W. Maple Ave, but it dead ends before it reaches Kol Yaakov.

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  93. JG,

    Thanks for the info. It seems like the situation with the Hispanics is a bit more difficult because many of them seem to be convinced by their (real or imagined) Marrano heritage that they have no need to officially convert. I have not been in such communities. The one hispanic convert I know went through official conversion b/c she learned early on that having a Jewish grandfather didn't make her automatically Jewish. I have also never been in communities where Missionary acitivity is a problem.

    I'll make sure to avoid the communities where you have lived. I'd hate to become as bitter and paranoid as you.

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  94. JG,

    With the people who weren't accepted by the Israeli Rabbanut, I'm still confused as to what would prevent them from undergoing a giyur lechumrah now. Also, even according to GPS, where marriage to a particular Jewish partner is a major incentive to a prospective conversion, the conversion candidate isn't automatically and irredeemably disqualified.

    From the GPS Guidelines:
    http://www.judaismconversion.org/GPS_Policies_and_Procedures.html

    "Where marriage to a particular Jewish partner is a major incentive to a prospective conversion, there is an increased possibility that the geirus may come with less than the complete commitment necessary for a conversion that would be in keeping with the standards we are trying to set for the regional Batei Din. Nonetheless, experience also shows that such a motivation can result in converts of the highest caliber. Conversion for the sake of marriage therefore requires the Beit Din to constantly reevaluate if the candidate and future partner are likely to subscribe to the requisite beliefs and practices. The Beit Din must be convinced that if the potential spouse were to disappear from the candidate’s life, his or her commitment to the Jewish faith and people would not waver. These factors inevitably prolong the process and make examination of the prospective convert more intense. Indeed, should the couple mention a proposed wedding date as a deadline or goal, the Beit Din should respond that the process will take significantly longer than that. "

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  95. GPS states: "[For converts for whom marriage to a Jew is a major incentive, t]he Beit Din must be convinced that if the potential spouse were to disappear from the candidate’s life, his or her commitment to the Jewish faith and people would not waver."

    According to this criteria, it would seem that the elderly convert couple you mentioned have passed the test with flying colors. They have apparently remained committed to Yiddishkeit and the Jewish people even after divorcing from their original Jewish spouses.

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  96. Do you suggest that we disregard the Psak of the Chief Rabbi and the Rabbis of our community in order to treat anyone who claims to be Jewish (ie Reform and Conservative converts, Anusim, patrilineal descent, Kabbalah Learning Center) as Jews?

    That's a nice straw man you've built.

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  97. Reb daas torah:i see you have not responded to a previous post what you didn't publish.And i must assume that when you have no halahic sources to prove that eivah is a factor when actions are done to save a jewish life.

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  98. B said...

    Reb daas torah:i see you have not responded to a previous post what you didn't publish.And i must assume that when you have no halahic sources to prove that eivah is a factor when actions are done to save a jewish life.
    ================
    I did answer you. Aivah is life threatening and it is a simple issue of not sacrificing the life of others to save a life.

    In addition to aivah you have chillul hashem.

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  99. "That's a nice straw man you've built."

    not a "straw man". Once the Chief Rabbinute's Office has issued a ruling that a person is not Jewish, then I do not understand how his halachic status could be any different than a Reform, Conservative or Kabbalah Learning Center convert?

    Should we defy the Chief Rabbi and treat as Jewish someone who has already been ruled non Jewish in Israel?

    We have already seen many people whose conversions have not been accepted in Israel because the conversions were done to permit an intermarriage. If we know (and we do know now from experience) that these converts are not accepted as Jewish in Israel, can anyone in good conscience make a shidduch between the daughter of a woman who was converted for marriage and a Jewish boy? Is it right to assure the boy's family that the girl is 100% Jewish when you already know that it is very unlikely that she will not be accepted as Jewish in Israel and that therefore his children will not be Jewish according to the Israeli Rabbinute?

    (Ask me about my brother and he feels now. His wife and children are only Jewish in SOME Orthodox shuls (ie Chabad) in the US, not in Israel. He is FFB, 100% observant his whole life. The Rabbinute in Israel told him to divorce his wife; his wife can never convert and neither can his children because they are the product of an intermarriage. He has been married for 15 years, has several children and loves his family. His wife and children have joined a Conservative shul. He is kosher and Shomer Shabbat 100%, but he does not want to leave his family.

    Would you knowingly do that to another person?

    how is it wrong to ask that the individual have his/her conversion verified by the RCA's BDA under GPS or by the Israeli Rabbinute before we accept the children into yeshivas, give synagogue honors and membership or make shidduchim.

    If you think that this is a "straw man" argument then you must be a heartless and cruel individual. This is real life and it is a crisis and a tragedy in many of our families including mine.

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  100. Aivah is life threatening and it is a simple issue of not sacrificing the life of others to save a life.
    ====================
    That is your theory, not anything from the sources.

    The sources said aivah might be life threatening. You (not the sources) made the stretch that therefore you cannot save a Jew's life if it causes eivah.

    None of the sources though say you cannot engage in Pikuach Nefesh if it causes eivah.

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  101. Rabbi Yair Hoffman has a very detailed answer how Rabbi Eidensohn is correct about aivah and maintains that it was a beracha levatala to ask Gov Crist and also damaged the credibility of Klal Yisroel.

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  102. R. Hoffman is wrong. (He usually takes a far left-wing position on halachic issues.)

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  103. Rabbi Hoffman is advocating FOR the death penalty which is a right wing position.

    The Agudah et al have become dupes of the far Left.

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  104. R. Hoffman takes a far left HALACHIC position, even if that happens to coincide with a rightist political position.

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  105. Where have we seen that Rabbi Hoffman poskens along left wing lines?

    Is Yaakov just smearing him?

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  106. Why is that considered "smearing him"? Is pointing out the MO take left wing halachic positions also considered "smearing"? I'ts just a staement of fact. Some Rabbis take a rightist approach and some a leftist.

    R. Hoffman is a blogger for VIN and 5TJT. Read his pieces. Its clear and obvious he takes a liberal halachic approach.

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  107. More on Rabbi Hoffman and Grossman will be posted on a newer thread.

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  108. Yaakov should cite at least one other example where he believes Rabbi Hoffman poskens like a left winger.

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  109. Rabbi hoffman didn't detail any credible halachic sources about eivah s far as i saw.

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  110. We know there is a concept of aivah.

    Why can't someone just use common sense to say there is aivah over the Grossman defense?

    Who says that poskim have to outline every single potential case that could come up?

    You know, there are certain yeshivos where bochurim are trained not to think for themselves and are instructed to learn only certain meforshim on the blatt and only certain parts thereof of those meforshim and nothing else.

    Are these Hoffman critics talmidim of these yeshivos?

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  111. JG,

    WADR, I don't think you're telling the whole story with regard to your brother and sister-in-law.

    The BDA and the Israeli Rabbanut do not automatically invalidate a conversion done for marriage. They also do not bar children of intermarriage from converting.

    I quoted the appropriate section of the GPS standards in a previous post regarding conversion for marriage. The GPS standards also make no mention of barring children of intermarriage from converting. In fact, it states that if someone was raised as a Jew but was not in fact a Jew k'halacha, his conversion (with or without a bracha, depending on the circumstances) may be expedited. See Section 5e (http://www.judaismconversion.org/GPS_Policies_and_Procedures.html)

    As for Israel, if the Rabbanut has, in fact, adopted such stringent rules, that non-Jews romantically involved with Jews, and even children of intermarriage, are strictly and forever barred from converting, this would be a bigger news story than Rav Sherman invalidating Rav Druckman's conversions. We would have definitely heard about it through the Jewish news organizations and blogs. We have not.

    This is a part of what ITIM says about the process in Israel for conversion candidates romantically involved with a Jew. (See http://eng.itim.org.il/?CategoryID=208)
    "A Jewish partner: A Jewish partner will be asked to join you in your studies in ulpan... The bet din will seek to determine whether your spouse intends to be a partner in the way of life you seek to embrace. This includes synagogue attendance, and a gradual adoption of the laws of Shabbat and kashrut."

    You can say what you will about ITIM's aims and goals. However, they do keep a very close eye on the dynamic situation of geirus in Israel. If the Rabbanut has now decided to bar all conversion candidates romantially involved with Jews, or children of intermarriage, from conversion, they will most definitely make note of it. Needless to say, they have not mentioned such changes.

    I suggest that you are improperly jumping to incorrect conclusions merely based on some anecdotes and your prejudices.

    Finally, the posting of your incorrect conclusions are irresponsible and damaging, as it's amounts to motzi shem ra on many gerei tzedek (and their children). Further, your incorrect conclusions may lead some Jews to unnecessarily question the status of many gerei tzedek and stumble on the issur or ona'as hager.

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  112. Reb daas torah:there are absouletly no sources that when it comes to saving a jewish life you worry about eivah.In the holacust,the mirrer yeshivah would have been finished if eivah was taken into play.Let's face it,it was illegal to raise money and channel it to enemy held territory,through sweden and other countries.The fbi followed r' avraham kalmonowitz zt"l around,and the told him that they were following him,it didn't stop him at all.Imagine the eivah caused by such a headlind,"rabbis trading with the enemy""rabbi arrested for dealing with people in enemy occupied land through illegal means'.But when it came to saving lives r'Avraham zt"l,knew evreything must be done.This was the shittah of r'Aharon kotler zt"l,as well as r' Eleizer silver zt"l,in the musy talks.Imagine the wave of antisemetism if goyin found out, as they almost certainly would,that jews were paying ransom! to the enemy,when american boys were dying on the front.(this during the musy talks)Yet,r' aharon and r' silver did it anyway,when it came to pikuach nefesh.

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  113. Reb daas torah:there are absouletly no sources that when it comes to saving a jewish life you worry about eivah
    ========
    Nope - the situations are not the same. In war time there were large numbers of people that could be potentially saved and there was already eivah. In such a case the calculus is different.

    In the Grossman situation there were certain things that could and were done that didn't involve aivah. We agree that these measures should and were done.

    My concern was 1) questioning the legitimacy of society to use capital punishment - Rav Moshe and others say they have the right. 2) Using harassment and slanderous attacks against the governor and the victim's family. Their was little chance that they would be effective and they caused eivah. You seem to assert that if there was a minute chance they would work they must be used.

    The only real question is if harassment had a reasonable chance of saving him, should they be used even if they would likely cause eivah and chilul hashem. That wasn't the situation and I didn't address the issue.

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  114. DT said: The only real question is if harassment had a reasonable chance of saving him, should they be used even if they would likely cause eivah and chilul hashem. That wasn't the situation and I didn't address the issue.
    ========================
    That is a change from your earlier comments where you simply said if theres eiva then you can't save someones life.

    In any event, if doing something that may possibly be eivah has a reasonable chance to save someones life, then there is no question that pikuach nefesh is docha eivah.

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  115. 1)Please show me a halachic source where there is a diffrence between one jew and many2)show me one newspaper article that says the govonor was called a nazi.I was ver dissapointed in all your responses,they are evasive in general,and not halachicly backed.

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  116. Another point, reb daas torah:you have no proof it was orthodox jews,there were people from liberal groups involved like amnesty internationil and others.As for saying that a nonjewish society has the right to excute someone.The askanim themselves said, we would not be ivolved if it was a regular case,without the special factors involved.See the jerusalem post.

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  117. Reb daas torah:if there was already hatred ,that means the rabbonim should have been more careful.In that era the antisemetism was boiling high,and information of a ransom deal could have caused a big explosion.On another point, where did anybody say that florida has no right ti invoke capital punishment,

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  118. In your article you say "it simply isn't so".Please could you back up your statement with halachic sources.The igros moshe and mahram shick aren't connected with that point.

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  119. See Shut Chasam Sofer 6:14. It clearly states non-Jewish courts have no right to execute a Jewish person. Period.

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