Saturday, December 26, 2009

Rav Sternbuch:Tropper is guilty!


There are increasing comments popping up that there is no evidence against Tropper. That the tapes are forged or misunderstood.

Let me present something rather basic that Rav Sternbuch has said recently to someone who asked about Tropper's guilt.

Rav Sternbuch, shlita said the following:

The fact that this story with the accompanying accusations has been printed in newspapers  around the world, the normal thing would be to hire the best lawyer in the world and issue a public denial and sue all the papers for libel. The mere fact that this has not been done is the biggest proof the accusations are true. It is an example of what our Sages say that silence in the face of an accusation is understood to be an admission "Shetikah k'hodah".


140 comments :

  1. Are you sure Rav Sternbuch's statement was quoted by a reliable source? AFAIR, Chofetz CHaim specifically writes that absence of denial is not evidence enough to accept loshon hara.

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  2. forgive me, but this strikes me as a very rash statement. whether or not there is a such thing as "the best lawyer in the world", or whether it is indeed possible to "sue all the papers", we may assume that whatever tropper is doing or not doing, he's doing (or not doing) it on the advice of one or more lawyers. this makes a mockery of "shetikah k'hodah" and makes this statement itself just another attempt to use ancient rabbinical thinking as a substitute for, rather than an adjunct to sechel. tropper's guilt does not stand or fall on what his lawyers are advising him to do or not do, rather it is clear to anyone with eyes in their head, and should have been clear years ago, but for the fact that his bribery blinded the "eyes in the heads" of the "wise".

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  3. Leah Aharoni said...

    Are you sure Rav Sternbuch's statement was quoted by a reliable source? AFAIR, Chofetz CHaim specifically writes that absence of denial is not evidence enough to accept loshon hara.
    ======================
    Please cite the place where the Chofetz Chaim says that where there is strong reason to suspect and yet the person says nothing it has no siginficance?

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  4. Yes Rav Sternbuch did say what I said he said.

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  5. "Guilty" of what exactly?

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  6. I have talked to a number of reliable sources who have told me that the tapes have in fact been verified to not be a cut and paste job or synthesized or staged by actors - by at least 5 independent experts

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  7. the EJF themselves seem certain that the accusations are true, besides the PR they issued, they have removed from the site any rememberance of tropper, there is no mention of him nor any piture or video of him, which were in plentiful until now.

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  8. Shtikah kehodaa is a concept regarding the sufficiency of pleadings in monetary disputes, not proof of the truth of an underlying accusation. The rough U.S. equivalent is a default judgment.

    Although I bought it all at first, the more I think about it, the more I think this is either all nonsense or there's far more to the story.

    And by the way, what happened to the supposed videos?

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  9. I have no doubt that Tropper is guilty, but his not having sued the newspapers proves nothing.

    Aside from the point raised above, that whatever he is doing now IS on the advice of counsel, I presume, there is another point, which Rav Shternbuch does not seem to have considered.

    I refer tot he fact that the newspapers can limit their liability simply by saying that the tapes are unauthenticated and SEEM to sound like Tropper and they can also say that someone else has reported XYZ.

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  10. Shtikah kehodaa is a concept regarding the sufficiency of pleadings in monetary disputes, not proof of the truth of an underlying accusation. The rough U.S. equivalent is a default judgment.
    ==============
    Not so. Circumstantial evidence such as this is acceptable in a variety cases

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  11. "Not so. Circumstantial evidence such as this is acceptable in a variety cases"

    Such as dinei nefashos? Your source for this?

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  12. "Not so. Circumstantial evidence such as this is acceptable in a variety cases"

    If we can make a list of rational explanations for shtikah, does any perceived hodaah evaporate without further evidence?

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  13. I have no doubt that Tropper is guilty, but his not having sued the newspapers proves nothing.
    =================
    I find this nit picked rather strange.

    Tropper's reaction to these accusations was silence. He immediately quit (or was fired from his job)the day after the accusations. EJF removed all references to him from their web site including pictures and made an announcement that recent events didn't affect the quality of their geirus. Tropper supposedly issued an apology for appearance of lack of modesty. Not one rabbi associated with EJF has made a public announcement defending Tropper even though the charges clearly have impact on EJF.

    This is the man who has been very aggressive about defending himself - directly or through proxy - for every point I have raised against him for the last 2 years.

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  14. Afar l'pumaich - see Sefer Chofetz Chaim Klal 7 S'if 2.

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  15. OK. This whole discussion is completely academic now that Tropper has issued a statement: http://www.vosizneias.com/45491/2009/12/24/suffern-ny-rabbi-troppers-statement-to-recent-events. It speaks volumes.

    Incidentally, I can't but make the connection to the anguish caused to Rav Drukman last year - http://ingathered.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/leib-tropper-affair-the-divine-justice/

    Bli neder, I'll look up the source in Chofetz Chaim tomorrow.

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  16. It is time to release the video tape that clearly shows Tropper in bed with the woman from Houston, perhaps that will put those in the Tropper cult out of guilt, what will they then say? That actors who look exactly like Tropper and the woman from Houston were hired?? While the video may be pornographic in nature, it will stop Tropper from throwing out doubt out there.

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  17. Troppenstein's monsterDecember 27, 2009 at 2:48 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  18. It is true that papers can weasel out of legal liability. But they have egg on their face if it can be proven that they did not exercise due dilligence. A paper like the Daily News does not want that. The Jewish Week does not have such deep pockets that they could afford a lawsuit even if they won. But Tropper was probably advised that if he sues, the other side can countersue and than the legal process of discovery starts. It includes phone records, travel records, the other 40 hours of recordings, etc. I think Leib is wise to not sue. BTW I have done a posting on what real tshuvah by Tropper would look like at Frumfollies.wordpress.,com.

    shortlink http://wp.me/pFbfD-9V

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  20. Anyone who claims that the tapes are cut an paste simply has never tried to do cut and paste sound editing. As someone with a strong background in sound and video production, it is simple. If you want a smooth recording, where the listener cannot hear noticeable breaks, skips and such, and you are pulling your sound clips from unrelated conversations. You are going to need at a minimum a thousand hours of audio(to make it truly seamless). Otherwise anyone listening would be able to quickly tell it is a fake. The first time that Hollywood pulled off a cut and paste was with the Tom Clancy movie adaptation, "Clear and Present Danger" in which they drew from all four years of footage the previous US president to put together a clean fifteen seconds. We are talking over thirty minutes of audio... there is no way anyone should have been able to get enough audio of Tropper talking about sex and such to piece together a clean thirty minutes.

    Never mind that there is actually an accompanying video floating around. To assert that all of this is a forgery is simply desperate people grasping at straws.

    Is Tropper and his friends trying to save Tropper's reputation. Yes absolutely. Simply look at the public record to date.
    First the accusations appear. Within 24hrs Tropper steps down, to much sadness in order to "pursue other interests."

    Dec 24th we<a href= "http://www.vosizneias.com/45491/2009/12/24/suffern-ny-rabbi-troppers-statement-to-recent-events/> have this statement</a>,
    <i>Events of recent weeks have caused Rabbi Tropper great anguish, in particular given his recognition that the high standard of ethics in the Jewish community is one of its most treasured principles.

    He wishes to express his regret for the turmoil caused by his departure from the Eternal Jewish Family organization and for what has appeared to be conduct not within our significant laws of modesty. Rabbi Tropper now looks forward to a return to both his studies and time with his loving family, as well as to personal introspection. He thanks those outside his closest circle of friends for respecting his privacy. </i>
    Which in my opinion is still a cop out but it is also an admission of wrong doing. Bill Clinton when faced with his own witch-hunt at least made the statement, "No, I have never had sexual relations with that woman." If this is such an immoral witch hunt against Tropper why hasn't he at least graced us with an equal denial? Instead we have a psuedo admission of guilt.

    In light of not only his own lack of denial, but his begrudging admission there is no room to say that the ruling of R' Shternbuch is in contrast to the Halakhot of Lashon Hara.
    There was a situation that came before the Rosh where the people wrote to him for permission to kill another Jew because of the Chillul HaShem he had caused and the degradation of the Jewish people it would cause in the eyes of Goyim if they did not. The Rosh stated that while he would prefer that they simply maim him and cut out his tongue, that they should do as seemed fit in their own eyes for the need of the hour.

    What are we talking of doing with this menuval? Certainly nothing as drastic, simply giving him a tongue lashing until he does true teshuva.

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  21. Moyshe said...

    Afar l'pumaich - see Sefer Chofetz Chaim Klal 7 S'if 2.
    ===================
    You are ridicuous - the cases are not the same. suggest you read the Be'er Mayim Chaim (7:3) along with (7:8).Chofetz Chaim (8:7)plus 7:10-12

    See the gemora Bava Metzia (83b) where a person is reported to the government will he will definitely be killed - based entirely on circumstantial evidence, Shabbos (56a) where Dovid accepted lashon harah based on circumstantial evidence, Kiddushin (81a) where a person is flogged based on rumors against him,Megila (25)where you are allowed to curse a person based on rumor, Mo'ed Koton 18 where you are allowed to ban a person based on rumor.

    While you are at it you might look at Siimon 2 in choshen mishpot.

    To imply the ridiculous that Rav Sternbuch is not aware of what the Chofetz Chaim said in order to defend this menuval is incredible.

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  22. Mekubal -- try to act neutral for a second. Does it make sense not to deny it, whether or not the accusations are true? Does he have anything to lose by denying it and shifting the burden proof to you, Daas Torah, etc? Then why wouldn't he?

    Several reasons jump out at me, mostly unflattering to Rabbi Tropper and EJF. None are nearly as bad as this from a Torah point of view, but with longer term legal repercussions. I'm willing to bet no one asked Rav Sternbuch whether that affects the shtikah kehodaah analysis.

    Again mention of videos. Have you seen them, or are reporting that you know they exist?

    As you are an audio expert and I am not, please let me know if it is possible using audio samples to isolate someone voice signature (or whatever the technical word is) and use it as a filter. My sources in the music business say it can be easily done in a studio. Except for the incongruity in speech patterns and word usage, this could be made to sound like Barrack Obama talking to Hillary Clinton. This may make tape authentication more art than people are being told.

    Rabbi Eidensohn has repeatedly asserted that has it from people in the know that the tapes are authentic. Some shtikah is going on here as well. Who has authenticated them and how? Why isn't this on the record if you are leveling such serious charges?

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  24. Rabbi Eidensohn has repeatedly asserted that has it from people in the know that the tapes are authentic. Some shtikah is going on here as well. Who has authenticated them and how? Why isn't this on the record if you are leveling such serious charges?
    ====================
    Authentification by an expert who needs to defend such claims in court costs a lot of money. Experts have examined the tape. No one is paying their fee at present so they are not associating their name with it. At this point there is no need to certifying because Tropper is not denying their validity.

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  25. Between Guma and Kaplan, no one can pay to prove or disprove the single piece if evidence? I don't buy it. Or is it that it can't be conclusively authenticated?

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  27. I know someone who personally knows Shannon Orand from different organizations. He told me that there is no doubt in his mind that these TAPES ARE REAL

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  28. Recipients and PublicityDecember 27, 2009 at 5:09 AM

    "Shetikah k'hodah" has now been surpassed by "hoda'as ba'al din kemei'ah eidim dami" -- "self-admission of a litigant is equivalant to the testimony of a hundred witnesses"! by this:

    "Rabbi Tropper's Statement To Recent Events, Published on: December 24th, 2009 at 07:38 AMNews Source: Statment Released By His Legal Counsel.

    Suffern, NY - Rabbi Leib Tropper’s response to recent allegations has been delayed until now in deference to his legal counsel.

    Events of recent weeks have caused Rabbi Tropper great anguish, in particular given his recognition that the high standard of ethics in the Jewish community is one of its most treasured principles.

    He wishes to express his regret for the turmoil caused by his departure from the Eternal Jewish Family organization and for what has appeared to be conduct not within our significant laws of modesty. Rabbi Tropper now looks forward to a return to both his studies and time with his loving family, as well as to personal introspection. He thanks those outside his closest circle of friends for respecting his privacy."

    This is good start, but his rebbinic sponsors, like R Reuven Feinstein and R EB Wachtfogel, must defang him entirely. Strip him of all his supposed "semichas" and high falutin' "ordinations", and reduce hom to the honorable rank of MR. (Mister) Tropper now just a mere private citizen, he must step down from all his official positions not being allowed to "teach" or influence others in any way, and ban and forbid him from ever holding any official role as "rabbi or "rosh yeshiva" or any position of responsiblity, official or unofficial, in the Torah world.

    Likewise the corrupt EJF organization he founded and ran for the last four years must be shut down and become defunct and because it has become tainted beyond repair by the Tropper sex scandal and the huge radioactive Chillul Hashem cloud that is still spreading malignantly because of Tropper's sex scandal under the cover of the preachy "holier than thou" EJF "universal conversions" scam and fraud.

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  30. If Tropper is innocent than surely Tom Kaplan - who is noted for his integrity - would readily pay for his defense?

    Integrity ?Tom Kaplan was informed since at least 2006 on Tropper misdeeds and did not care, he stood quiet in June 2006 Rabbi Druckman hatefast when rabbi Druckman was victimized and Tropper got 300 local rabbis to sign a document which they declare their refusal to accept Modern Orthodox conversion.

    As Tropper enabler Kaplan is equably responsible to each and every of Tropper sins.

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  31. I WONDER how much would be the value of such a video
    maybe this is the reason for silence, but ,legally, it looks that many things can come up, if donations are not returned

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  32. Although EJF has removed Tropper from all their publicity - Shannon Orand still has the EJF video with the menuval proudly talking about bringing back those who have become 'mingled' with the goyim.

    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=62107515

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  33. Does this story sound familiar? At least this goy (even though he denied the allegations) still knew to do the right thing and resign!

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/12/26/world/AP-AS-India-Governor-Resigns.html?_r=1

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  34. Jonathan Becker:
    we may assume that whatever tropper is doing or not doing, he's doing (or not doing) it on the advice of one or more lawyers.
    ======================================
    Sure. But do you think that ANY reputable lawyer would advise a high profile client to not say anything at all, except for the meaningless "apology" he gave out a couple of days ago? Hardly likely!

    Rav Shternbuch's comment is important to make the point you seemed to want make, ie that if common sense tells us that a certain behavior really only points in one direction, generally halacha accepts that. Which is important for the folks who are trying to claim that, al pi halach , we are not allowed to accept the evidence in front of our eyes.

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  35. The notion that the tapes were 'verified' to be a cut and paste job by the same people who verified the Shalit tape is idiotic.

    The persons who are charged with authenticating tapes and so on are very anonymous, by design. Who they are, where they work, etc., is necessarily a clandestine endeavor. They do not wait for Shalit or Tropper tapes. Their days are filled examining and verifying all kinds of sensitive information.

    They could care less about the Tropper tapes. They have far better things to do with their time. Further, I am sure they pay little mind to these pipsqueaks.

    Anyone is free to defend Tropper, of course. It just astonishes me that there are those who will call into question Rav Eidensohn's credibility and yashrus with an absurd and despicable lie- and at the same time, wrap themselves in a mantle of erlichkeit.

    Nothing they have to say is of merit and their criticisms of those who don't share their 'standards' are laughable.

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  36. mekubal wrote -

    "There was a situation that came before the Rosh where the people wrote to him for permission to kill another Jew because of the Chillul HaShem he had caused and the degradation of the Jewish people it would cause in the eyes of Goyim if they did not. The Rosh stated that while he would prefer that they simply maim him and cut out his tongue, that they should do as seemed fit in their own eyes for the need of the hour."
    --

    Reckless of you to quote this. You hung a man on unsubstantiated evidence because it confirmed your suspicions about him. If it turns out you are wrong, and I can only hope that you are, then you are responsible for this chillul hashem and appear to have just written your own sentence.

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  37. The Badatz put out something in writing on Neturei Karta, citing vos me darft moyche zein when there is a chilul Hashem.

    I would think it appropriate here too in that rabbonim that continue to support Tropper & EJF are also creating chilul Hashem.

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  38. http://benatlas.com/2009/12/the-unanswered-questions-about-leib-tropper-tapes/

    Tropper calls Shannon and she records the conversations. But then there is a recording of a woman riding in a car. Allegedly the woman in the recording is Rebbetzin Leba Tropper. We don’t know who is she taking to, perhaps to Leib, she says “they can take us out”. Anyway, she is on a highway, talking through a cell phone, there is no Shannon Orand to record the conversations, in other words she is being professionally bugged. Someone hired a surveillance company, perhaps Guma. Notice she mentioned the emailed threat of the “Japanese surveillance”.

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  39. The thing that bothers me is: Why do these recordings even exist? Who made them? Were they for Tropper's personal pleasure? Was Ms. Orand making them in order to take him down after he began this behavior? Is there some other motive for making them? (use your imagination but I'm not speculating because doing so would do more harm to some reputations)

    This doesn't seem to be a simple case of a man in power manipulating a woman into sexual activity for his personal pleasure.

    There is very little we actually know. There are total lies floating around. For instance, it has been reported that Orand's conversion process has been terminated and that she has been banned from the synagogue. This is completely untrue.

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  41. I have just removed a number of posts which are strongly disputed and which do not relate to the topic of the post.

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  42. @ "clearly thinking"- r. eidensohn is not wrong. i can testify myself, as an amateur sound engineer, that the recordings are not fakes, and as a former student of r.tropper that the voice on the recordings is his. i do have questions, however, regarding both r. eidensohn's and r. shternbuchs thinking regarding the proper torah approach to this. specifically, "the end of the world is coming (run around screaming)" (r. eidensohn") and "shetikah k'hodah" (r. shternbuch). i don't presume to speak for the torah, but i do expect those who do to be "careful with their words."

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  43. As you are an audio expert and I am not, please let me know if it is possible using audio samples to isolate someone voice signature (or whatever the technical word is) and use it as a filter. My sources in the music business say it can be easily done in a studio. Except for the incongruity in speech patterns and word usage, this could be made to sound like Barrack Obama talking to Hillary Clinton. This may make tape authentication more art than people are being told.

    First yes I have seen portions of the videos. Not the entire video. That has from what I understand not yet been released.

    Regarding using a voice print as a filter. What you would need for that is again thousands of a hours of voice recording to render such a filter from. Even then with a basic Adobe demo product that you can down load(soundbooth) any regular person with a little use of Adobe help features would be able to analyze and recognize a filter in use. But let's say that you have a Hollywood quality sound studio(because that is what it would take).

    To give you are real world example of what is known to be a fakery done the the way you are saying. THe movie the Crow, in which Brandon Lee was tragically killed before the end of filming. They used voice prints, voice actors and script rewriting to finish the movie. Again he had less then two minutes of total dialogue in the the rewrite. That audio cost a total of $8million dollars to do. We are talking more than thirty minutes of dialogue... the price for that would be astronomical... just for the duplication.

    Then you would need professional forgers and script writers to make the audios sound authentic, not just incrminating but actually authentic... That kind of outlay of cash would be easily traceable. Let's face it the number of enemies that Tropper has that can afford to spend in the tens of millions of dollars for a frame up are very limited. If the tapes were a fake Tropper should have already pressed charges against those people, and started a criminal investigation.

    Moving on from that, there is the Video. What it would take to forge a video... sorry but I don't think that any of Tropper's enemies have that kind of money... not just enough to pull it off, but enough to continue to pay the mercenaries that did it to keep it quiet. Be assured the people who do such things(unless they work for governmental agencies) do so for the highest bidder, and are always for sale.

    In addition to that you have the Sharon Orand interviews in which she openly acknowledges that she recorded the audios, as well as giving additional details about the depravity that she was drafted into. Again if these things were forgeries, I would have expected a criminal investigation to have been opened against her by now, as well as a civil suit to have been filed.

    Tropper does not need to sue all the papers, he only needs to put pressure on the right people to divulge enough information in order to get to the people who are financially behind the forgery.

    Instead he has chosen to release an apology...

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  44. In the case of Heath Ledger's last movie, The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus, Hollywood, even with all of the stock footage, behind the scenes footage, script readings and so forth, could not AFFORD to do the kind of dubbing and such that people are saying that one of Tropper's enemies pulled off seamlessly. Reportedly it would have more than doubled the 30million dollar budget of the movie.

    That is with having footage(albeit of a poorer quality of the scenes being rehearsed and the lines being read by the actor in question).

    The outlay of cash is absolutely absurd. It reminds me of a time I was discussing liability waivers and lawsuits with a Russian. He said, "why would I want to pay a lawyer 10's of thousands of dollars and maybe I win or maybe I don't? I could just pay that money to Yvinney and he would take care of you, and I have no more worries."

    Essentially... to put this as bluntly as possible, anyone who hates Tropper so much that he is willing and able to lay out the amounts of cash that would be necessary, has more efficient means of destroying the person at his disposal.

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  45. re: last paragraph of mekubal's last post: that's EXACTLY right. there are more efficiant, more effective and cheaper means. like, for instance, getting REAL recordings released on the blogosphere.

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  46. Mekubal -

    The Crow came out in 1994, technological stone age. Trying to prove the technology or its cost from that movie is pure nonsense.

    I couldn't find a single website discussing cost as a reason for not digitally completing Parnassus, or what such a project might entail. Do cite something that makes this an apples to apples comparison.

    Again, I'm told that voice filtering is not difficult. It is clear from this discussion that audio experts and amateurs have opined on the authenticity of the recordings, but none have been paid to actually do a professional analysis. Citing movies is ridiculous. There is an item of evidence. Until it is proven to be authentic, you're concluding that is real on completely extrinsic and mostly irrelevant factors. The most common anti-Tropper comment is "he's known to be a menuval," as though that settled the matter.

    You also write:

    "If the tapes were a fake Tropper should have already pressed charges against those people, and started a criminal investigation."

    Has it occurred to you, Rabbi Eidensohn, or anyone else implying guilt under shtikah kehodaah, that this may be very sound legal counsel? There are circumstances in which a competent attorney would advise a client to keep quiet and hope it blows over in the blogosphere. Nothing to do with actual guilt. Has Rav Sterbuch been informed that this might be reason for shtikah, or has he been used to obtain a desirable psak?


    You write further:

    "In addition to that you have the Sharon Orand interviews in which she openly acknowledges that she recorded the audios, as well as giving additional details about the depravity that she was drafted into."

    No one has authenticated her voice either. And her story is not completely consistent. She didn't know they would be leaked, and yet follows up the leak by talking to the NY Post? The Post?

    And how is it that she was mysteriously identified, in all the passive meaning of the word? She, who claims to want privacy, identified herself? Someone outed her? Is there a news feed that jewish bloggers read that gives them such information? I presume there is, as so many bloggers broke the story at the same time. Has anyone inquired into why the leak is to Jewish bloggers, not, say the AP or New York Times? Are they hoping someone would run with it without thinking too hard?

    Rabbi Eidensohn incorrectly referred to me as "perplexed." I am only perplexed as to how anyone who can learn a blatt gemara can be so uncritical, can confuse evidence that tends to show something with irrefutable proof that it is so.

    I have no idea or opinion as to whether the tapes are authentic. What gets me, and what makes me comment, is the reprehensible way the report of the recordings, the indication of wrongdoing, has become an unquestioned conviction.

    And since so much of the conviction relies on Tropper's failure to deny, let me ask again: Wouldn't anyone plead not guilty regardless of whether it is true? Are you implying you think he's a rasha and menuval but not a shakran? Or perhaps is there another reason for keeping quiet?

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  47. Eternal Jewish Cover UpDecember 27, 2009 at 2:37 PM

    Team Tropper will never give up the denial.

    There is no conspiracy theory, no matter how delusional, that they will not resort to.

    And Tropper IS a menuval and it's way past due that it was acknowledged. The oylam that went to yeshiva with him at RJJ, Philly, Telz & Torah Or, knew it all along. They knew it when it he worked for the kiruv orgs and his neighbors in Monsey knew it. This is why Tropper was shunned by everyone for decades. All of a sudden, when he is swimming in the endless supply of money, there are plenty of people who want to befriend him.

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  48. Opulently I acquiesce in but I dream the brief should secure more info then it has.

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  49. Clearly thinking said;

    Wouldn't anyone plead not guilty regardless of whether it is true?

    Aaron said;

    even this he hasnt done though!

    the youtube recordings have almost 20,000 hits already ,would it not be a normal thing to ask you tube to remove the recordings, this has been done many times and youtube remove it.

    the comaprison to "shtika chodoh" is just to show that this concept in the gmara is also not a written rule of the torah , it is a logical proof that the gemara detemined is enough to issue a ruling with, here also it is a logical act to issue a denial, that not having been forthcoming is a reasonable proof that it is true, this is after the eveidence is also very compelling for guilt.

    The fact is also that he has issued already a stsment to the media with an apology, there also he doesnt deny anyhting , rather he seemingly clearly admits the tapes are true and apologises therof.

    I have also heard directly from the EJF staff that they are aware the tapes are true, with their own verification and this explains their drastic reaction of not even coming to defend the very person that set them all up and removing any trace of him from the website.

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  50. Clearly Thinking-

    Is is your kind of 'clear thinking' that allowed 'frum' pedophiles to ply their evil for decades.

    It is your kind of 'clear thinking' that allowed 'frum' spousal abusers in frum communities to go unaddressed for decades.

    It is your kind of 'clear thinking' that turned a blind eye to 'frum' substance abuser in frum communities.

    Stupidity masquerading as 'frumkeit' is still stupidity.

    Orond may be troubled, but she isn't a predator. On so many levels she is a victim- and continues to be one.

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  51. I think it is necessary to mention to my commentators that I have been informed that Tropper reads my blog and these comments - apparently using it as a means of judging public opinion and his defense strategy. I would suggest you have that in mind before you hit the send button.

    As has been commented before - the present scandal is not an example of a tzadik who was tempted or corrupted by power and opportunity or because he was setup up - but rather is someone who has been known to have had a severe moral defect for many years - at least since his first divorce. Thus in the upper rabbinical circles it didn't come as a surprise that he did what he did - though they might have been surprised at how it manifested itself and how brazen his behavior was.

    He only got into his present situation because of his unlimited flow of money and his political ability to get results. He wasn't appointed but he made the EJF and others joined.

    Regarding the commentators who are rolling their eyes and wringing their hand over my style - keep in mind that both the Chofetz Chaim and the Chazon Ish say that one should speak lashon harah about someone you know is viewed as a respected person and is an therefore influential - but shouldn't be.

    In addition the fact that Rav Sternbuch is supportive and encouraging me in his matter should cause people to reassess their understanding of the halachos of lashon harah - and not the opposite of assuming that Rav Sternbuch doesn't know the halachos.

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  52. Then there is plenty of reason for Tropper to take pause.

    The combined readership of UOJ & Rav Yudel Shain's blogs are significant in the frum community and they have been even less charitable to Tropper than this site.

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  53. Clearly Thinking...

    You are quite obviously a Tropper defender. Unfortunately there is no defense. If you had listened to the audios you would have heard Ms. Orand identify herself when speaking to Tropper.

    Actually listen to the audios. Whoever is telling you that a voice filter is easy to produce is lying to you. A voice filter allows for alterations or changes to an existing voice. It is often used to clean up vocal tracks for performers.

    Actually voice mimicry which is what you would need in this case is nigh on impossible using only a voice filter. You need an adequate voice actor. You need a professional level script writer, you need equipment. You need time... you need enough voice samples in order to get a good print. There is a reason that voice prints are used for biometric security, they are very very hard to accurately mimic.

    Concerning Heath Ledger's latest film if you page through the media references on its wiki page you will find the discussion of cost and it being cost prohibitive. Also Slate discusses how Hollywood has never actually pulled it off seamlessly.

    Actually 94 is not so much the Technological stone age when it comes to this. Industry standard software for audio production is Adobe Audition. Adobe acquired Cool Edit Pro V2(original release in 1992), in 2003. V1 of Audition was unaltered. It has gone through two generations since then. I have owned and used them all. The essential sound processor has stayed the same, with only peripheral modifications as to what the software will support. Essentially it is still as technically difficult today as it was in '94 to pull off that kind of work, also still as cost ineffective. By comparison Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Premier(software used for advanced video editing and effecting) are in their 11th and 10th generations respectively with a new generational release within a year.

    Likewise anyone in that industry could tell you that while quality of special/artifical effecting has gone up, price has not come down. Primary reason being that you still need to pay a specialist for their time. For instance in 1998 I won a Calligari True-Space competition for creating an animation of battling X-Wings and Tie figthers. It took a team of four people seven months to design and render. I could do the same with that team of people today. We could either give you a cartoony rendering(which for the time looked good) or we could use the latest software and produce something that looks far more realistic. Either way the overall design time is still going to be for a team of four people, seven months.

    to be continued...

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  54. Do not be deceived by the technical wizardry comming out of Hollywood or that Tropper backers want you to believe. To pull off something that real, takes an amazing amount of time, effort, and expertise. Even then, without using actual audio clips of the person(not a voice filter) the audio would not pass muster on a basic biometric security system.

    As far as authenticating the tapes. Anyone willing to forward the 10-20K that a reliable agency will want to charge, to R' Eidensohn, I will gladly ensure that they are fully authenticated upon his receipt of the funds. For those looking at more cost effective means by themselves. The MaGyver way of doing it is to download a demo copy of a Biometric voice analyzer, as well as a demo copy of either Adobe Audition or Adobe Soundbooth(home user version of Audition). Run an analyses on Audition for any in place filters. You won't find any because they were not used. Second play into your Biometric software every available clip of Leib Tropper talking that is known to be him, aka EJF videos ect. Then play the Audios and see if you have a match. It will.

    Yes I know how to use audio and video editing software. I also once worked with, was a partner in, a high end security and fraud detection solution and consulting service. Meaning I used to verify things like this. I am convinced beyond a doubt that these recordings are real, and that people such as "Clearly Thinking" are only part of a smoke and mirror distraction show.

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  56. The Tropper matter isn't about audio technical capabilities, much as his defenders would like you to believe.

    It is interesting to note how the Tropper defenders are not loudly defending his character, midos or even his EJF work.

    Instead, they are trying to defend Tropper's honor with silly assertions about technology.

    They are a psychiatrist's dream.

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  58. "I have been informed that Tropper reads my blog and these comments - apparently using it as a means of judging public opinion and his defense strategy."

    since almost everyone else here uses a pseudonym (and what does the torah have to say about that, hmmmm?) i'll speak for the clal:

    ooohhhh, i'm a'tremblin' in mah boots.

    i'm not after tropper specifically, he's just the tip of the fetid iceberg. on the other hand, i don't want him using my ideas in his own defense, which is pointless in any case. so, should i just toe the party line here? forget it. i didn't do it at kol yaakov either and i'm not going to start now. and as for all you anonymous snipers, until you're willing to post your names, have some boosha, and some self respect. if you want to go after the big fish (and tropper is no minnow) you have to register your boat. that's why i post about this here- r. eisensohn, despite my disagreements with some aspects of his approach, and even that of his rav, at least has the guts to sign his name to it.

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  59. Eternal Jewish Cover UpDecember 27, 2009 at 4:41 PM

    No amount of logical explanation from Mekubal & others will quiet the fantasies being promoted by Team Tropper.

    Next they will tell us that Guma has access to products from the Defense Intelligence Agency that are not available to civilians.

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  60. mekubal,

    What of the possibility that an actor mimicked R. Tropper's voice? If it was to be faked, that would be the most likely avenue of doing so.

    And it would be relatively easy to find a voice actor who can mimick someone's voice, simply by listening to known audio recordings of him speaking.

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  61. http://eternaljewishfraud.blogspot.com/2009/12/shannon-orand-in-troppers-wedding-video.html

    There is a video posted on YouTube of Pesach Tropper's recent chassuna, which is central to the Tropper audio tapes. One alert blogger finds Shannon Orand appearing for 4 seconds during the video.

    One thing that I find odd about this video is that it shows several men by the ladies dancing. I do not know of any orthodox chassuna - even where there is mixed seating - where the men are by the women's dancing. Especially not when Tropper had the who's who of roshei yeshiva in attendance.

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  62. Then they have the 6 or 7 minute clip of Yehuda Green and his multi piece ensemble including fancy instruments.

    How much does Green command for a performance? 10 or 15 grand? And especially since there are so many musicians with him, doesn't that violate the takanna from the Moetzes?

    The only amusing part of this video is to see Leib Tropper dreying around in his langa reckel. He must have convinced himself that he is just as choshuv as the roshei yeshiva he bought support of.

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  63. During WWII my grandfather a"H worked in the shipyards in Suffern where they were using extremely toxic petro and arsenic based chemicals for hardening steel that were dumped into the rivers, especially at Haverstraw.

    Ford Motor company also dumped the paint waste from their Mahwah plant into the nearby Ringwood mine for 30 years. Residues of that waste have been found by the EPA to have leached into the ground water.

    http://www.epa.gov/region02/superfund/npl/0200663c.pdf

    My grandfather a"h showed my husband and I a topographical map of Monsey which looks like a fishbowl surrounded by rivers whose chemicals leached into the ground there. My husband and I also noticed that in a lot of places around Monsey the grass does not seem to grow either.

    We decided to move to Teaneck instead which is hardly a garden paradise, but probably less toxic than Monsey.

    With regard to Monsey, I do believe that there is a problem with toxic chemicals leaching into the water and soil. Studies have shown that for a G6PD deficient population (ie. Mediterranean) petrochemicals can interrupt the endocrine process as well as being an underlying cause of diabetes, thyroid disorders and bipolar.

    http://www.charite.de/ch/medgen/eumedis/thalassemia04/endocrine-disorders.html

    Maybe I just wrote Troppers criminal defense?

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  64. Mekubal -

    I don't have the expertise to address the technical portion of your comment. I inquired as to whether it was possible. You think not. You also have a dog in this fight, so while I understand what you say, I am taking it with a grain of salt.

    And again, there is one piece of evidence. Before you state that it is absolute proof, make sure it is authentic. Before you state absolutely that it must be Shannon Orand because she says so, authenticate whether it is her. Don't conclude it is because you know what software might do the trick or how much it would cost. Since Guma appears to have a hand in procuring the tapes, and presumably knows if they're authentic, why hasn't he plunked down 10-20k to authenticate them?

    As for me, you write:

    "You are quite obviously a Tropper defender."

    I most certainly am not. Until 2-3 months ago, I had only heard vaguely of him, had no idea he was anything other than an average rabbi in Monsey, and never heard of EJF. Since then, I spoke to him for 3 minutes on the phone, and wasn't impressed. Contrary to the prevailing methodology, that doesn't prove or disprove the tapes. While I am not informed about his supposed history of arayos, I think I'm far more impartial than people who have spent years fighting against him.

    The comments that my logic shields pedophiles and rapists behind smoke and mirrors are completely wrong. I have children in yeshiva. I'm not stupid. I would expect an appropriate response to serious allegations, but that doesn't preclude investigation into the truth of the allegations. The contrary approach has fueled witch hunts and blood libels.

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  65. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/26/nyregion/26convert.html

    The 92nd St Y, where Tom Kaplan is president, has a phony gerus program under a woman "rabbi". According to this NY Times profile, the conversion candidates, who are mostly living with Jews, still eat chazir and celebrate Kratzmach.

    It's interesting that there is a Leib Smokler working for this program. There was someone by that name who used to comment on frum blogs. The Leib from the Y incidentally is female.

    Could there be any overlap here with EJF?

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  67. Is this the Rabbi Avior who was rosh yeshiva of Bnei Akiva's Or Chaim in Toronto?

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1134907.html

    14/12/2009

    Want your adopted son to become Jewish? Act Orthodox

    By Orly Vilnai

    "The rabbis told me, 'at home you can pray to a statue and eat pork; the child has to go to a religious school," Nira said.

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  68. Tropper's former good friends who are now keeping their distance say there are nuances on the Tropper tapes that could only be uttered by Tropper himself unless the KGB groomed a spy for at least 10 years to imitate him to a tee.

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  69. A member of my family was molested by the Big Dog.

    Ask any young man who went to the school how he got this nickname.

    Water seeks its own level.
    Birds of a feather flock together.
    Why are sayings like this popular?

    The Big Dog is one of Tropper's biggest defenders. One of the NMB kollel members lives in a house that is also the mailing address for one of Troppers orgs. I lived next door and know firsthand what is going on. Do you think that the wives of these creeps don't tell their neighbors and friends how they suffer? Do you think that the neighbors can't see what is going on?

    How about the kids in NCSY? Do you think they are stupid? It's obvious to any 14 year old what these Rabbis are doing.

    Why is Baruch Lanner in Boca praying in Rabbi Max's shul with a big welcome?

    It's because Lanner is Max's mentor in every way.

    The Jewish world is very very small. Plenty of people knew Tropper in Monsey and plenty of people know what else is going on in the "frum" world.

    I wish that our Rabbis would start to listen and stop dismissing our concerns.

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  71. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/nyregion/15neediest.html

    Here is a very odd case where a ger kotton rebels and his adoptive parents have him declared a goy by some rabbonim so they could disown him even though the rebellion occured AFTER the bar mitzvah. Who were the rabbonim? Tropper and EJF?

    The rov of the OU shul in Mount Kisco had his Yiddishkeit "reaffirmed" although it's odd that he then moved to Bushwick, where there was no shul until this month when a new Chabad house opened.

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  73. What of the possibility that an actor mimicked R. Tropper's voice? If it was to be faked, that would be the most likely avenue of doing so.

    And it would be relatively easy to find a voice actor who can mimick someone's voice, simply by listening to known audio recordings of him speaking.


    How about someone hired Emperor Palpatine to use the dark side of the force on Tropper in order to convince him to go off the Derech.

    Better yet, since we are dealing with unlimited resources and such, why not just make an evil clone of Tropper that will do your sick and twisted bidding, and thus defame the man. After all I am sure that the <a href = "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tleilaxu>Tleilaxu</a> keep a copy of Tropper growing in their axlotl tanks for just such occasions.

    Even the best voice actors and mimicry is typically discernible to the human ear. Honestly though here is what you need:
    1) A voice actor versed in mimicry that does not mind being involved in a criminal conspiracy and the commission of several acts of felony blackmail, defamation and libel.
    2) A script writer that can pull off a good forgery of such a conversation and who is smart enough to know to include all of the incidentals that make it sound real to people like me, and who does not mind being a part of criminal conspiracy and the commission of several acts of felony blackmail, defamation and libel.
    3) A sound technician(at least one) that does not mind being involved in a criminal conspiracy and the commission of several acts of felony blackmail, defamation and libel that is proficient enough to make a forgery that will fool people who detect fraud for a living.
    4)Brining in the fact that there are videos, body and face doubles that resemble Tropper and the Mrs who do not mind being involved in criminal conspiracy and the commission of several acts of felony blackmail, defamation and libel.
    5) A technically proficient camera operator who does not mind being involved in criminal conspiracy and the commission of several acts of felony blackmail, defamation and libel.
    6) A video technician adequately proficient to make the video look real that does not mind being involved in criminal conspiracy and the commission of several acts of felony blackmail, defamation and libel.

    Money, lots and lots of money. If it would cost hollywood say as little as four mill to pull something like this off on a movie screen where people are willingly suspending disbelief and thus willing, however subconsciously, overlook flaws, how much do you think it would cost pull it off where people are going to be examining it in order to hopefully fool them and not be caught in a criminal conspiracy? Add to that the fact that hollywood costs are for legal work, here you have to employ someone willing to work illegally, that usually costs more. Then since they obviously have no problems with being a part of blackmail, what is to keep them from blackmailing their initial employer?
    What is to keep them from getting jittery when people start questioning and running to the authorities in hopes of a plea deal with consideration for being a state witness?

    No you are better off growing a clone, less moving parts so to speak.

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  74. KGB/GRU/MVD doesn't do that sort of thing. They know they would be found out. It is easier to plant an infiltrator and work him up the food chain(which they did in the CIA twice and MI5 once) then it is to try and impersonate another individual.

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  76. Clearly Thinking-

    You wrote:

    "The comments that my logic shields pedophiles and rapists behind smoke and mirrors are completely wrong. I have children in yeshiva. I'm not stupid. I would expect an appropriate response to serious allegations, but that doesn't preclude investigation into the truth of the allegations. The contrary approach has fueled witch hunts and blood libels."

    I am touched by your humility and piousness.

    In fact, it was that same humility and piousness that shielded Kolko and many others like him, for decades. After all, the offenders were never caught 'in flagrente' and therefore could not possibly be guilty. In fact, how could we take the word of so many children who gre up into in so many broken adults over the word of these predatory 'tzaddikim'? How could we take the word of women who were abused- after all, their eidus is worthless, right? Do we need to have tapes of the actual assaults- and will kanaim like yourself question each and every tapes validity?

    I am reminded of a conversation I had years ago with a Rav who is known for his 'Tzidkus' and 'erlichkeit'. He was offering up a psak on a matter of kitchen kashrus that was quite stringent. he said that not adhering to his psak was tantamount to eating chazir.

    I had the temerity to ask him if he ate in his 'heilige' bubba's house, or at the table of his rebbe, given that it was in no way possible for them to observe the very kind of standard he had set for others.

    Needless to say, he shut up.

    You talk about proof and witch hunts. I am talking about Jewish lives that have been thrown in disarray. There are families, children and individuals that have all been been victimized by Tropper's indiscretions. Put yourself in the shoes of a ger and/or his family who's very identity has been called into question because of his 'ehrlichkeit'. It is not enough that he has sequestered himself away for a period of reflection.

    Who is going to clean up the mess he made? Who will make right the lives of those he has victimized?

    As I noted earlier, Tropper's defense seems to be centered around silly technical issues, conversations designed to deflect attention away from the real issues at hand. No one is talking about his character, midos or his work at EJF.

    Ask yourself why that is.

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  77. Speaking of Or Chaim in Toronto, it is the alma mater of a Maury Kelman, son of a Conservative rabbi, who has been working with Seth Farber. Kelman is also a darling of the left wing Jewish media who like the idea of loosening conversion standards.

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  78. The statements made against the NMB Rosh Kolel are without merit!

    A hooligan Bal Loshon Hora with an agenda and a keyboard is like a loose monkey with a machine gun.
    Enough said.

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  80. The EJF are so embarrassed of Tropper, they even removed his reaction to the whole story that was in the first PR issued on the day he resigned. They don’t want to know him at all. (heard from a worker)

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  81. Monsey said:

    Tropper's former good friends who are now keeping their distance say there are nuances on the Tropper tapes that could only be uttered by Tropper himself

    Monsey Jew says;

    Ditto to the above, forget about the voice, the whole mannerism is only of tropper 1000%

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  82. Recipients and PublicityDecember 27, 2009 at 7:26 PM

    Some unofficial "group therapy" is in order given that this is turning out to be a massive post.

    In mental health healing, there are five stages when confronted with a trauma:

    1) Shock.

    2) Denial.

    3) Anger.

    4) Negotiations.

    5) Acceptance.


    At this point, about 10 days after the shocking discolusers about the Tropper sex tapes and Tropper's hurried resignation as head of the disgraced EJF, the first stage of SHOCK is still active and is being passed.

    For some, who are still hearing about this terrible sex scandal, SHOCK is still the order of the day and they can't get past that.

    Then some, obviously they are all on team Tropper and exploiting this as part of their DAMAGE CONTROL, they are still clinging to or foisting DENIAL but it's mostly futile when they realize there is real life digital concrete evidence of Tropper on the phone recorded talking VERY dirty with his lover Shannon Orand.

    This can be compared to the serious situation of why Nixon was forced to resign when the Watergate tapes became known to prosecutors or else he faced impeachment and Linda Tripp's secret recordings of discussions with Monica Lewinsky, who had her own dirty dress hidden as evidence, that brought about the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

    Therefore "denial" is almost impossible for Tropper, Nixon and Clinton, in the face of hard core (pardon the pun) evidence that exists on the audio tapes (and the video tapes to be released).

    Now for most, either those on team Tropper or those who have struggled against his lies and deceptions for years, it's a state of SHOCK all around, and for obvious reasons.

    The scope and depth of the Chillul Hashem caused by Tropper's satanic sexual escapades and the degree to which EJF was just a corrupt outward front cover for Tropper and other's misdeeds of blind greed, sexual avarice and abuse of power and priveleges is mind-boggling.

    It is still far too early to see any contours of NEGOTIOATIANS, that for Tropper and Kaplan means literal negotiations with courts and batei din and the crucial tide of public opinion, the oxygen of PR, that has turned against Tropper and Kpapan and EJF and R Reuven Feinstein to in any way salvage their necks as they drown in a sea of immoral acts that defy description for such notable rabbis. Even so, they still look alike they are deslusionally "sailing" in denial on their ship of fools that is already at the bottom of the ocean.

    Needless to say the stage of ACCEPTANCE is way too far off in the future, but notice how team Tropper and his DAMAGE CONTROL experts are trying to fake it that we are at this last stage already as they wish to skip over the swalling of bitter pills, Tropper needs some real ones by now to calm down his manic states, the hard work required to truly get over the earlier unavoidable stages of SHOCK, DENIAL, ANGER, NEGOTIOTIONA.

    There is no short cut and there is no "magic rehabilitation" of Tropper=EJF=sex scandals at this time or ever.

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  83. Rabbi Eidensohn;
    the tropper fans are using this argument as a tactic for feet dragging to get the issue away from the main point. i think you should close this discussion now. The TAPES ARE TRUE, TROPPER has admitted to this, beyond any reasonable doubt, in the PR he issued last week. They are trying to get everyone distracted from the main issue which you have posted here in the past , that is for tropper to issue an apology to stem the terrible chilul Hashem that has been caused. I think you should bump that post to the top now to reinforce the point, which people seem to have forgotten about.

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  84. I suppose if the holocaust can be denied then so to can tropper crimes

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  85. Rav Sternbuch's quote makes a lot of sense.

    If a person is innocent, he will have no problem in immediately denoucing any lies/rumors, and he won't need counsel to "brief" him.
    It's only the guilty who need to prepare a great defence.

    Silence denotes consent.

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  86. The EJF are so embarrassed of Tropper, they even removed his reaction to the whole story that was in the first PR issued on the day he resigned. They don’t want to know him at all. (heard from a worker

    This is another planted comment by the EJF PR.

    The EJF is Tropper, he is still the chairman of the board of HORIZONS BAIS ACHIEZER INC, EIN: 13-4077539 ... and the only one who has the authority to write checks, every worker of EJF is a direct employee of Tropper and get his salary in cash from him, because the above entity (EJF) has no employees!!!

    This is a way to pay the people who work under Tropper off the book so no income tax,

    I hope the feds would look into it.

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  87. Yesiree, we are being asked to believe that these tapes are a 'set up'.

    Let's see: They had to find a guy who could learn to imitate Tropper's voice and mannerisms. Clearly, they would have had auditions and after a period of time, they would have made their selection as to who would play Tropper.

    Once that was done, they would have had to find someone to play the female lead. That actress too would have to be able to imitate SO voice and mannerisms.

    At that point, a final script would have to be written and rewritten, just so the finished product would be as believable as possible. The actors would have to spend weeks in rehearsal with voice coaches and professional writers who would adjust the script to the actors talents.

    Obviously, the perpetrators of the scam could not put an ad out in the trade magazines seeking actors. Hundreds of calls would have been made and everyone involved would be sworn to secrecy, including the technical people. This is not a problem, of course. Everyone knows how Hollywood types are at keeping a secret and no actor or his or her agent would ever seek publicity.

    Naturally, the parties involved would be paid in cash by a mysterious billionaire. He would have to willing to risk audits, government investigations and serious questions about his agenda and reputation. He would have to willing to have all his finances scrutinized. Going after a sainted Rabbi is a risky business because the moment that Rabbi was accused of a misdeed, thousands upon thousands of people would come to his defense and extol his virtues. The Rabbi himself would come forward and valiantly defend his reputation. Like a knight in shining armor, he would publicly come to the defense of his wife whose honor had been impugned.

    Of course, the perpetrators of such a horrible scheme would realize the tapes would be scrutinized by the legions of tape authentications in the orthodox Jewish community. Though not formally trained, they do consider themselves to be experts on virtually matters that others need years of training, expertise and experience- after all, they wear Borsalino hats, the Yeshivashe Harvard diploma equivalent.

    Here's the deal: It is not up to anyone to prove the tapes authenticity. It is up to Tropper to prove it is a fraud.

    Think of it this way. If you find a painting that most people say is authentic, anyone wanting to discredit the work carries the burden.

    The tapes offer enough evidence of legitimacy- his voice, her voice, her admission that it is she on the tapes, etc., etc. Further, he does not deny anything alleged nor does Tropper himself deny the legitimacy of the tapes or their content.

    Maybe the mysterious millionaire had something to do with procuring the tapes (after Tropper screwed him over for more than a few million and then tried to play him for a fool, who could blame him?). That in no way negates what is on the tapes. Tropper wasn't coerced into anything- in fact, it was he trying to do the coercing.

    Leib Tropper is no more a victim of a conspiracy that produced phony tapes than he is an astronaut.

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  89. Joseph said...

    Rabbi Eidensohn;
    the tropper fans are using this argument as a tactic for feet dragging to get the issue away from the main point. i think you should close this discussion now. The TAPES ARE TRUE, TROPPER has admitted to this, beyond any reasonable doubt, in the PR he issued last week. They are trying to get everyone distracted from the main issue which you have posted here in the past , that is for tropper to issue an apology to stem the terrible chilul Hashem that has been caused. I think you should bump that post to the top now to reinforce the point, which people seem to have forgotten about.
    =================
    Joseph I tend to agree with you. You have shown that you can right cogent prose - how about a guest post from you on that very subject. I think that would also serve as an antidote to those who insist that this is primarily that I am writing because of an deep seated hatred for Tropper. I think a fresh voice might make the point more effectively?

    I don't think it is necessary to close this post or ressurect on old one. Perhaps a new perspective is needed. Are you willing?

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  90. Update on (fictitious) story reported that R' EB Wachtfogel made a Melava Malka last night to bolster the menuval's (let's call him what he is) spirits.

    Melava Malka was a long planned fundraiser for the Fallsburg Kollel - which is under the direction of the local shul Rabbi - a Kol Yaakov graduate (I refrain from calling him a Talmid of LT as it may have seedy connotations). The guest speaker was the menuval.

    As you would imagine in any South Fallsburg function Reb E.B.W. spoke. However as soon as The Menuval came in Reb E.B.W. got up and left - with no conversation between them.

    (Btw Chaim Blum the new interim head of EJF who was a major part of the S.F. Kollel did NOT attend last night).

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  91. >Since Guma appears to have a hand in procuring the tapes, and presumably knows if they're authentic, why hasn't he plunked down 10-20k to authenticate them?

    What do they need to be authenticated for? This is not a criminal issue. I don't mean that pimping or whatever is not illegal, but what the AG does or does not do is irrelevant entirely. It's a court of public opinion issue, and Tropper's already been convicted in that court. There's no reason to spend $20 k just to shut up his friends/ conspiracy theorists, who in any case will never shut up.

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  92. these are parts of an email I received about tropper, from one of the key lecturers at the conferences tropper organized;

    "He was not personally revered, ....he received plenty of chanifah."

    "He was a nobody ... until he had vast sums to distribute."


    "I think he is probably mentally ill,.."

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  93. Melava Malka was a long planned fundraiser for the Fallsburg Kollel - which is under the direction of the local shul Rabbi - a Kol Yaakov graduate (I refrain from calling him a Talmid of LT as it may have seedy connotations).

    I think the readers should know that it was r’ Yaakov Barros who is talmid muvhak of Tropper. In recent dinner Tropper honored him with the reward of Marbitz Torah award (whatever it is)

    And Tropper put his comment on his blog reporting the recent shimcha

    http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:1VWZ6H7mGG4J:rabbileibtropper.com/rabbi-tropper/rabbi-troppers-simcha/+rabbi+tropper+blog+barros&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    http://www.horizons.edu/hakol/fall2007.htm

    ReplyDelete
  94. "It's a court of public opinion issue, and Tropper's already been convicted in that court."
    That's horrible. Everyone is entitled to a proper defense, as guilty as they might be. Just the idea of saying who cares, its not going to court, we don't need to prove it beyond the shadow of doubt, strikes me as unethical. Indeed it is the style of a witch hunt. He may be guilty, and it is more than likely that he is. But bloggers, including this blog, who are unable to point out another side to the issue, and insist that they have irrefutable proof when they do not, are being unethical. Shtika kehoda'ah is difficult to argue. I don't care what Rav Shternbuch says, if there is any legal reason whatsoever for his silence, it is no longer a hoda'ah. In fact Halachicly speaking, if he denies it to only two people, it is no longer hoda'ah. He need not waste his time giving a full blown press conference about it. Someone else above wrote that it is up to tropper to prove that the tapes are fraud, that is an example of unethical journalism. leaving it to the defendant to prove innocent. Perhaps, we need a real investigation, not hearsay amateurism, and comments from rav Shternbuch. If a real investigation proved tropper guilty, the claims against him and its repercussions would be far more potent.

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  95. The proper thing for Yeshiva of South Fallsburg to do is revoke the invitation to Tropper.

    For R' Elya Ber to walk out and Blum not to show up is what's called tanzten bei alla chassunos. They are posturing both ways to avoid the public's wrath while keeping the bridges open to keep receiving Uncle Tom's money.

    Shame on them.

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  96. "Melava Malka was a long planned fundraiser for the Fallsburg Kollel - which is under the direction of the local shul Rabbi - a Kol Yaakov graduate (I refrain from calling him a Talmid of LT as it may have seedy connotations). "

    He most certainly is a protege of R' Tropper. Ethics, actions, even mannerisms. Most people from the area are ashamed to tell the truth about him.

    From what I heard, the money that is distributed to members of the Kollel came from Tropper's sources in order to give this guy power in the frum community.

    Think about it. Certain Baalai Teshuvah were handpicked by Tropper to further his political aims in the Rabbinate. He would not have chosen those who would have challenged him over ethics.

    Tropper's s'michah should be revoked, and those who received s'michah from him should have theirs revoked. (L'daytaich) if geirus can be revoked, certainly s'michah can.

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  97. "Clearly Thinking"
    Has it occurred to you, Rabbi Eidensohn, or anyone else implying guilt under shtikah kehodaah, that this may be very sound legal counsel? There are circumstances in which a competent attorney would advise a client to keep quiet and hope it blows over in the blogosphere
    =======================================
    Really? Can you name ONE set of circumstances where any sane lawyer would allow an innocent person to release the statement that he did? That such a lawyer would advise someone to not sue or otherwise repudiate these tapes? Or, as in this case do BOTH?! (I'm talking about scenarios that actually make sense.)

    Let's get real. Neither common sense nor halacha require us to defy logic and the real world to try to defend someone.

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  98. re: The proper thing for Yeshiva of South Fallsburg to do is revoke the invitation to Tropper.

    Again -it's NOT the Yeshiva of SF it is the Kollel and NOT under REBW auspices but under Barrows. It is not in REBW power to cancel the Melava Malka. Once it is ongoing it would be wrong for REBW to not address the evening. It's NOT a Tropper function - it's the Kollel in REBW city.

    Should Barrows have asked Tropper not to come - OF COURSE! But he is after-all a "Talmid Muvhak" as was pointed out.

    ReplyDelete
  99. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bAp8uwg92I

    Is that Rav Moshe Shapiro sitting in the front row? Sure looks like him.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Will the person that posted this comment PLEASE email me!!
    rbrand16@yahoo.com
    Eternal Jewish Cover Up said...

    Team Tropper will never give up the denial.

    There is no conspiracy theory, no matter how delusional, that they will not resort to.

    And Tropper IS a menuval and it's way past due that it was acknowledged. The oylam that went to yeshiva with him at RJJ, Philly, Telz & Torah Or, knew it all along. They knew it when it he worked for the kiruv orgs and his neighbors in Monsey knew it. This is why Tropper was shunned by everyone for decades. Allof a sudden, when he is swimming in the endless supply of money, there are plenty of people who want to befriend him.
    December 27, 2009 2:37 PM

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  101. Recipients and PublicityDecember 27, 2009 at 11:07 PM

    "Anonymous said...Will the person that posted this comment PLEASE email me!! rbrand16@yahoo.com"

    Watch out for any notices like this because team Tropper, as part of its broad effort (good pun) DAMAGE CONTROL, is working overtime to know who is writing against it as it's hero the disgraced Mr. Tropper (and that's insulting the title "Mr") tries to spread paranoia and fear that "big brother Tropper" is watching you.

    Why hide when it's so easy to post online. All comments that require greater privacy can be Emailed to the owner of this blog quite easily and he can help you.
    Remember Tropper is tricky and he can still bite.

    ReplyDelete
  102. har nofer said:

    If a real investigation proved tropper guilty, the claims against him and its repercussions would be far more potent.

    David said:

    Mekubal has had the tapes verified by a number of experts,they were found to HAVE been 100% true and NOT forged in any way. I know mekubal personally, so does Rabbi Eidensohn know mekubal personally, we are both able to trust mekubal and believe him 100%. If you don’t want to believe then that is your business, but you can not have any complaints on us who have verified this according to all halachic standards and therefore claim that the ball is now in troppers court.

    Furthermore what rav sternbuch is saying is not a halachic issue; that you can answer he denied it in front of 2 people. He was saying a common sense point, this guy has had his named dirtied in the whole world, literally, (it has been carried in every jewish newspaper in the USA plus the UK plus every national Israeli newspaper), the instinct of every human being is to try and defend ones name, self pride is a natural phenomenon that Hashem created. When you see such a thing happen and the person does not even try to defend himself, the common sense tells you that he is admitting to it. This is what rav sternbuch is saying, if you do not see that common sense, then I would say that you fit into the category of "Elokim asah es haadam yashar vehem bikshu cheshbons rabbim" and can therefore not see the straight path of common sense.

    ReplyDelete
  103. בס"ד‏ יום חמישי ז' טבת תש"ע

    גילוי דעת

    בהתאם להחלטת הועדה המתמדת שהתקיימה בחודש כסליו במוסקבה ולפיה 'ועידת רבני אירופה' מתנגדת החלטית להתערבות הארגון 'משפחת נצח ישראל' EJF)) בענייני הגיור באירופה,

    מאחר שהארגון הנ"ל עוסק בענייני גיור להשפיע על בני נח להתגייר הוא בניגוד למה שמקובל בקהילותינו משנים קדמוניות, ויש חשש של פריצת חומת הדת באירופה,

    ומאחר שראשי הארגון הנ"ל גרמו לחילול השם אדיר ולחילול שמה של הרבנות האורתודוקסית בכל העולם בשבועות האחרונות,

    אנו המייצגים את קהילות הקודש באירופה קוראים לארגון 'משפחת נצח ישראל' ((EJF שלא לקיים את הסמינר המעורב המתוכנן במינכן,

    והיה אם לא ישמעו לנו, אנו פונים לרבנים והמרצים שליט"א שהוזמנו לסמינר הנ"ל שלא להשתתף איתם ולדור את רגליהם מהכנס הנ"ל.

    הכו"ח,

    בית הדין דלונדון והמדינה ועידת רבני אירופה

    נ.ב. מסמך זה הינו פנימי בלבד ואינו מיועד לתקשורת.

    ReplyDelete
  104. >That's horrible. Everyone is entitled to a proper defense, as guilty as they might be.

    Tropper can at least claim he's innocent.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Har Nofer said...

    "If a real investigation proved tropper guilty, the claims against him and its repercussions would be far more potent."

    What would an investigation entail and for what purpose? The only question here is his chazakat kashrut in public matters. Nobody is trying to fine him over this? If this is a lie why has he not come out punching? What lawyer would tell him to be quiet. A lawyer only tells a defendant to be quiet in order to maintain control over a case.

    This is an individual who does not hesitate to get involved engagage in arguments bzibbur. Why does deserve greater lattitude than he gives to those he opposes?

    ReplyDelete
  106. DT said:
    Perhaps a new perspective is needed. Are you willing?

    Joseph said:

    I have thought about this and have also looked into all your previous posts, you have really left no stone unturned. In the beginning you even posted a defense for tropper, there was no real response. You asked tropper to apologize to reduce the chilul hashem in the world, there was no response. You posted a wonderful post; "Sounds of silence or who is the 800 lb gorilla in the room?"
    that post couldn't have been written better, you write there that tropper seems to have some friends still defending him, which sounds absurd. You write that the tapes have been 100% clarified. You quoted in a new post Rav Sternbuch, which is common sense, there is nothing more to be written in my opinion. This last post of yours has drawn almost 100 responses, more than ever,(I don't know why this one triggered people more than previous ones) but a lot of it is going round in circles with the defenders constantly puling the wool over everyone's eyes. Like someone wrote before, if the holocaust can be denied then so can troppers guilt. Maybe you add this to the list of conspiracy theories, that you once posted. Its similar to the tactics that Hitler YMSH used in the early 1930`s, i.e. if you say a lie enough times then it becomes the truth. (this is the power he used to convince the german people of all his dirty theories and plans) This tactic is being deployed here and is becoming more widespread as the time goes on, obviously they are hoping to have some results via this method. I would therefore advise you not to lend a hand to this dirty trick, keep yourself clean and above the water. Eventually the truth will prevail, as it always does, this took some years of your fighting to reveal this menuval, but now the truth is really out for everyone to see and hear.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Just a quick note, that the above "Joseph" is a newer poster to this blog. (I've been commenting under Joseph for a couple years here.) Not that I mind (as it is a common name), just want to point this out.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Tropper is a modah bmiksas - thus chayav beshvouah - When will the "rabbis" of the EJF come out and say they made a mistake

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  109. Update on Melava Malka for the Fallsburg Kollel.

    Turn out that the menuval went over and kissed REBW and some Tropper talimidm snapped pictures. Expect to see them on internet soon!

    ReplyDelete
  110. Has there been a year of scandal and chillul HaShem like this one in recent memory? Rubashkin, Spinka and Tropper. Glatt kosher business fraud. Money laundering rebbes. Conversion "experts" demanding play for pray.

    To be sure, there have been incidents over the years, but so many scandals so close together has to give one pause. Also, the recent scandals have involved prominent people with great haskamahs and (literally) hashgachas, approbations and endorsements by great "gedolim", people in whom we pashuter Yidden are supposed to have emunas chachamim.

    Leib Tropper slandered Rabbi Slifkin with a lie about one of his talmidim. Tropper claimed that the student had read Slifkin's book and subsequently lost faith because if the great rabbis could be wrong about zoology, they could be wrong about other things too. In fact, the student left Tropper's yeshiva before Rabbi Slifkin's book was published.

    My favorite line of reasoning in the gemara is k'shittatcha, attacking a position with it's own logic. If great rabbis could be so wrong about Tropper, endorsing him and in turn being influenced by him, might they be wrong about some of their other pronouncements and positions?

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  111. I do not believe that tropper is innocent.

    However, his silence is by no means an admission of guilt. It makes the Torah look ridiculous to claim that a great sage says in the name of the torah that Tropper s silence amounts to an admission of guilt.

    Actually, in today s media world silence might be the best strategy out of an unjustified libel. Because before denying the accusation, one has to repeat them and this gives them just more importance. This is why many celebrities follow a silence strategy when they are wrongly accused. In many cases, they are not even aware of the accusations.

    To say that Rav Sternbuch does not know this and still interprets Troppers silence as an admission of guilt would show that he is very removed from the world we live in. So perhaps Daas torah did him a disservice in quoting something he said in a private conversation on the internet.

    In fact, this way of proceeding looks very much like the little video sequence published about Rav Elyashiv and askanim who come to see him to have him say the things they want him to say.

    It takes much of the Gedolim-s credibility away.

    ReplyDelete
  112. I think people are ignoring the most obvious indication that the recordings are real, and that is their content itself.

    If someone was trying to fake such a thing, one would expect it to be very clear and to the point, much more explicit than these recordings are, maybe include some "real" nivul peh rather than just "Darling" and "sex things", etc.

    The recordings have all the characteristics of a real conversation: cryptic allusions to previous events, digressions, parts that no one really understands. A faker wouldn't waste his time with this.

    Of course, someone may say that all this is part of the forgery, but our healthy instincts know that there is a limit to this kind of reasoning.

    Above all else, there is the weird and contradictory persona of Tropper himself. In the short time of these recordings, we see the aidelkeit of a (former) talmid chacham mixed thoroughly with words and ideas straight from the sewer. There is a good reason why anyone sensitive finds it hard to listen to the recordings for more than a few minutes without wanting to throw up.
    Inventing a character like the recorded Tropper would take a literary genius. If this was a fake, it would read like Naomi Ragen, not like Shakespeare.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Observer -

    You write:

    "Really? Can you name ONE set of circumstances where any sane lawyer would allow an innocent person to release the statement that he did? That such a lawyer would advise someone to not sue or otherwise repudiate these tapes? Or, as in this case do BOTH?! (I'm talking about scenarios that actually make sense.)"

    Yes, I can think of several scenarios where I would advise a client to keep quiet, but I'm not about to start new rumors. The point is merely that they exist and are entirely consistent with the reactions of EJF and Rabbi Tropper.

    I privately asked Rabbi Eidensohn to ask Rav Sternbuch whether Rabbi Tropper's silence is incriminating if his lawyer is advising him not to respond or retaliate. I am sure Rav Sternbuch was unaware (and never informed) that a lawyer might advise that. It entirely undermines the logic of shtikah kehodaah. Rabbi Eidensohn hasn't gotten back to me on that, but it's only been a day.

    I also question whether Rav Sternbuch meant it as a psak as it's being understood here.

    Zozo writes: "I do not believe that tropper is innocent...However, his silence is by no means an admission of guilt. It makes the Torah look ridiculous to claim that a great sage says in the name of the torah that Tropper s silence amounts to an admission of guilt."

    I agree.

    ReplyDelete
  114. William ShakespeareDecember 28, 2009 at 4:16 PM

    Tropper is done and cannot be redone.

    ReplyDelete
  115. There is no reason why an innocent party cannot insist on his innocence before retreating to silence.

    "Clearly" Thinking is what's known in Yiddish as a Drey Kop.

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  116. This fellow Ronnie Schreiber commenting here either under his own name or using the Bozoer Rebbe moniker and who almost always manages to criticize the gedolim in his posts, was behind a scam that defrauded several people of their money. He had volunteered to produce baseball caps with UOJ's logo on them but kept the money without delivering the goods.

    He is banned from the website and UOJ now makes the baseball caps himself.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Clearly Thinking said:
    "Really? Can you name ONE set of circumstances where any sane lawyer would allow an innocent person to release the statement that he did?"

    This has really gone too far. I request from whoever pressured Tropper to step down by threatening to release videos and pictures if he didn't, to release one picture that would help remove him from the Jewish scene.

    The fact that he showed up for the dinner and actions there show that he still plans to be a player in the money game. In this way he is not adhering to the terms he announced (introspection and time with his loving family). Please help remove him.

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  118. >there is no way anyone should have been able to get enough audio of Tropper talking about sex and such to piece together a clean thirty minutes.<

    I think you're underestimating -- or, depending on one's perspective, overestimating -- Tropper! ;)

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  119. Anyone here see the pics of Orond's brother? Throw Tropper and him in a room together for 5 minutes and Tropper will be singing like a canary on steroids!

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  120. >The combined readership of UOJ & Rav Yudel Shain's blogs are significant in the frum community and they have been even less charitable to Tropper than this site.<

    On VIN it's running better than 10-1. If it was a real mob instead of a virtual one, Tropper would be heading for the hills in a flash.

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  121. I'm virtually sure that these tapes are genuine, based on all the other events surrounding them, as others have commented. But I vehemently disagree with R' Shternbuch as a matter of general principle.

    Very frequently when people are attacked in this manner, there is no recourse. It's futile to deny the allegations, and it's completely hopeless and expensive to pursue legal avenues. Possibly R' Shternbuch is unaware of this, but slanders about public figures are almost impossible to succesfully prosecute, even if the facts can be proved to be false, because the publishers are protected unless it can be proved that they knew or should have known ("gross disregard") that they were false. (Read up on the Ariel Sharon suit against Time Magazine et al).

    This is not about Tropper, who is obviously possul mikal vechal as a rabbinic leader. But a lot of other public figures get accused of all sorts of things, and many of these accusations make their into the media. Applying RM Shternbuch's logic as a general rule will lead to acceptance of many false accusations against many fine people.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Yoni B. said...
    I have known Reb Leib for thirty years. In all that time, he has always done whatever he could to help me and my family. He has helped many others I know personally. I never found him to be avaricious or duplicitous.

    The circumstances which make it appear as if, in the last year, he could not defeat the yetzer hora, have yet to be fully explained.

    This is a very sad parsha, but it is not the worst thing ever to happen to the Jewish people, so let's try to stay calm.

    Whatever took place, it was certainly a set up, and only consenting adults were involved.

    What is the big rush to ruin Leibel Tropper?

    There's plenty of time to pile on the mud, but in the meantime, why not a have little rachmones for everyone who's heart feels broken today?

    Its still an open question how bad this thing is, but for sure, Reb Leibs has at least four decades of mitzvas to his credit.

    It is also worth considering whether those who brought this sordid mess to the attention of the entire world caused more Chilul HaShem than allegedly Reb Leib did.

    ReplyDelete
  123. I believe that Rabbi Ehrentrau is a brother in law of Rabbi M. Sternbuch, and that while Rabbi Sternbuch promotes kana'us as a public service to the Edah HaChareidis, he is also on very close terms with Rabbi Ehrentrau and with his nephew, Ehrentrau junior who works for the rabbanut in the department authenticating Gerim,...

    ReplyDelete
  124. Yoni B., Stop Lying!December 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM

    There is no real consent when Tropper is extorting someone trying to be megayer.

    Tropper was in a position of power and used it to pray on a weak woman.

    Tropper is the only source of chilul Hashem. Covering it up is what causes even more chilul Hashem. Exposing him is a kiddush Hashem. This is a Torah precept that was explained by Rav Carlebach, the last rov of Hamburg, Germany.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Rav Sternbuch's statement has made in onto matzav.com. It seems that some of the readers there have no idea what's going on.

    ReplyDelete
  126. watcher said...
    I believe that Rabbi Ehrentrau is a brother in law of Rabbi M. Sternbuch, and that while Rabbi Sternbuch promotes kana'us as a public service to the Edah HaChareidis, he is also on very close terms with Rabbi Ehrentrau


    Aaron said;
    first of all rav Sternbuch does not promtoe kanaus in the Eidah, please get your facts straight, just the opposite is true.

    While Rav Sternbuch is on good terms with is brother in law Rav Erentrau, he has used all the influence he can on his BIL to try and keep him away from tropper, to no avail.

    ReplyDelete
  127. http://matzav.com/rav-shternbuch-on-recent-events

    http://matzav.com/not-remaining-silent

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  128. I think that Shannon's weakness can be better understood in the context of what Avrohom ben Avrohom told the Vilna Gaon. In explaining to the Gra how a ger tzedek feels, he said that he felt sucked in to being mekabel mitzvos and could not stop. More recent gerim have been known to describe similar feelings.

    Since behayma Tropper was extorting her with such a sensitive thing, I could see that people in her position could lose their minds and capitulate to whatever crude demands are being made.

    ReplyDelete
  129. ephraim said...
    I think people are ignoring the most obvious indication that the recordings are real, and that is their content itself.

    Aaron said;

    of course what efraim says is true and is part and parcel of the statement of rav sternbuch, when presented with such incriminating evidence and still staying silence thereof. This is an answer to all those above who criticize the use in this case of "silence equals admission."

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  130. Fotheringay-Phipps -- good point re: futile to protest. Together with the comment that people on matzav had no idea what's going on, you have another good reason not to directly address the issue. Not everyone reads this blog. Most people have no idea what a blog is, and the few newspapers that have picked it up don't exactly make their way into everyone's home.

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  131. There's plenty of time to pile on the mud, but in the meantime, why not a have little rachmones for everyone who's heart feels broken today?

    This is what you call Mida Keneged Mida, Tropper did not have a rachmanus on all the people he abused all those years when he had the power, now the chicken come home to roost

    And remember the story of Saul and Agag (not sure how much Tanach you guys have in Kol Yaakov), what happened when Saul had Rachmanus on Agag (That how Haman come to be)

    And Finaly Those who are kind to the cruel, in the end will be cruel to the kind.

    ReplyDelete
  132. William Shakespeare said...
    "Tropper is done and cannot be redone."

    I wish that were so. But as we look back upon the many scandals that have come to light, we find that those who ended up with the money were accepted in Jewish communities, usually with a wink, admiration and respect from their peers.

    The lunch program/sex scandal, RCC scandal (Shmuel Amram received a long prison term because he refused to maser to the DA, and the mastermind lived a life of great respect), the fund raisers who duped widows, etc. come to mind. The ones run out of town were poor fools trying to make a living and be important in their community, and did not make tons of money. Two kosher scandals in Monsey come to mind.

    This is why it is so important to pull Tropper's teeth. He is still pushing, as shown by his invitation by Barros and his attendance at that Kollel dinner. If they can continue to show that the Jewish community will accept them as long as they provide money to yinga leit, then they will continue to receive monies from their patrons. That means they will continue to have political power in the frum community.

    Since this was Tropper's hook in creating Rabbis, his talmidim have everything to lose by not defending him. But they should all lose their smichas. Those of them with the right hashkofoh should be able to receive smicha from real rabonnim.

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  133. That's right. Tropper's good friend and partner in crime, Leib Pinter, amassed a fortune of many 100s of millions of dollars ripping off the government, private people and selling treif meat & cheese sandwiches labeled as kosher. But because of his money, he was able to present himself as Tropper's front man to gather dozens of signatures from roshei yeshiva against Slifkin. He was able to get himself a desk in the Mirrer yeshiva office on Ocean Pkwy. He was able to get his son the 9th grade rebbe shteller in Mirrer mesivta. He was able to get his musser sefer of all things published by Artscroll. He was able to get at least 2 of his relatives jobs with Artscroll. For those of you who know Pinter personally, he did not even have the charm that Tropper could sometimes display. He was a nasty, stuck up, arrogant person who was known to snicker at people suffering misfortunes or simply because they did not meet his artificial standards.

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  134. "The circumstances which make it appear as if, in the last year, he could not defeat the yetzer hora, have yet to be fully explained."

    You claim to know Leib Tropper for thirty years, yet you do not seem to know the same Leib Tropper I do.

    The Leib Tropper I knew 20 years ago in Monsey was a disgusting scumbag who used to hang out in Tuvia's bookstore "looking for potential Baalei Teshuva" to "makarev".

    I was newly married at the time and used to wait inside Tuvia's for my husband to pick me up after work.

    On more than one occasion I had to tell Tropper to "stand back from behind me, he was too close" and I also had to ask for help to tell him not to get too close to me so that he could "accidentally brush up against me" while I was browsing in the store.

    That is the Leib Tropper I know. He is the same jerk who screwed around on his wife, the daughter of Rav Margolin, a student of Rav Aaron Kotler, for 25 years before leaving her to marry one of the beautiful young women whom he was "makareving" to Yiddishkeit. The fact that she happened to also come from money was just the icing on the cake. Now we know that Laurel Blond aka Leiba Tropper has other talents which were not so obvious to the casual observer.

    Tropper's personal history should have disqualified him from acting as a decisor and shaper of the future of the Jewish people, but the fact that it did not only further illustrates that the vast majority of our "Rabbis" are as motivated by both money and sex as Tropper is.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Even if Tropper had sued, that is in no way a reason to believe that he is innocent. In fact, the opposite could be true.

    Mordecai Tendler sued everyone he could (his shul, his accusers, other rabbonim, and more) to distract the world from the evidence in the case against him. (The evidence against Tendler was considerably more damning than the Tropper tapes.) Tendler dropped all the suits that he initiated when the defendants made it clear that they intended to present very damaging evidence against him.

    Indeed, Tendler succeeded in having the suit against him dismissed on technical grounds. (Note: nowhere in his defense did he claim to be innocent of the details of the accusation. His entire defense was that seducing female congregants isn't a valid basis for a civil suit in the State of New York.)

    Despite this, on a few people actually believe that Tendler is innocent. A psak halacha, which I possess, was issued by R' Benzion haLevy Wosner and co-signed by a large group of Monsey poskim from across the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy. The psak itself states clearly that Tendler was 100% guilty, based on verified DNA evidence and testimony from kosher witnesses.

    YU fired Tendler, the RCA kicked him out, his shul fired him, the Rockland County Jewish Family Service dropped him from their board, etc.

    Bottom line: don't assume too much based on the fact that someone files a lawsuit.

    ReplyDelete
  136. JDB wants to know:

    Does anyone share with me an interest in how this scandal - which has captured the attention of the entire Jewish and Jew-hating world - was engineered?

    It kind of sounds like Shannon Orand made the tapes at someone else’s direction, urging or suggestion - and that person told her “No biggie, it will only go to a few leading Rabbis?”

    If so, who, if anyone, was part this project with Shannon? Is it fair, if it was a set-up, to ask: Who carried out the operation?

    The NY Post quotes Shannon Orand as saying about the tape, "It was only supposed to go to a few leading rabbis". Am I the only one who wonders: Well, WHO was it that sent a Tropper tape to any Rabbis at all?

    How did the tapes get out? Did Shannon sent them out herself?
    Did Shannon turn the tapes over to someone else to disseminate? If so, who? Who has all the emails etc, of the “leading Rabbis”?

    How did Shannon Orand happen to tape Leib Tropper? Was there anyone there with her at the time she was speaking and taping?

    I’m getting a mixed message - on the one had, Shannon Orand is portrayed as an innocent bright-eyed demi-waif victim, bullied by a vicious sex fiend. But on the other hand, Shannon herself portrays herself as “a counter missionary for Outreach Judaism, and continues this work with other organizations, such as Jewish Israel and Bridge Houston. It’s not uncommon for a counter-missionary to subscribe to their updates, participate in conversations, and monitor their activities”. So it seems Shannon is no stranger to sneaky, undercover work. That's not work for sissies and victims!

    Where did Shannon happen to get the technical equipment to do clear, unmistakable high-quality telephone recordings? Just had the taping equipment laying around the house? Did anyone supply Shannon Orand with the equipment she used to make the tapes? If so, who?

    Don't you need a private eye or someone to do secret taping of such professional quality! Anyone help her make the tapes? Any “techies” involved?

    Now, there’s a lot of talk on the blogs about “bagmen”. People getting paid off, controlling the purse strings etc. Did Shannon get paid to make the tapes? If so, how much? Has she been promised future payments? Was she in the employ of any person or agency at the time she made the tapes, other than, allegedly, Leib Tropper? Has Shannon received tape-related payments(i.e. financial support) from anyone since she made the tapes?

    Is it fair to ask Shannon Orand whether Guma Aguiar played any role in causing these tapes to be created?

    Of course, Shannon Orand, like Leib Tropper and his wife, do not want to be bothered by any unwanted intrusion into their lives. But she did open this Pandora’s Box. Whether intended or nay, but for Shannon Orand publicizing these tapes, this could have been a private chilul HaShem and Leib Tropper still could have been ruined.

    Instead, Shannon Orand has caused the attention of the entire Jewish and Jew-hating world to be focused on a Jewish sex scandal.

    Is it totally out of order to ask her a few questions about how the tapes came to be made? Is there some reason for a cover-up?

    - An Enquiring Mind

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  137. I have a big question:
    Is any Orthodox rabbi ever going to convert Shannon Orand??? And if not, should her children be attending our Jewish Day School and should she be welcome in our shul?

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  138. Why did Shannon Orand mail the tapes to the EJF? Who posted them on Youtube? Why wouldn't these embarrassing tapes about (Tropper and)herself be quietly shown to Rav Wender or a different Rabbi descretely? Why was this discusting scandal be publicized to the world? What were Shannon's intentions???
    Also, why did Shannon seek out her conversion with Rabbi Tropper if she was already working with Rav Wender for over 2 years?
    I think that there is something very suspiscious going on here!

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  139. I rather not be dragged into this muck, I extricated myself before it got as serious as with Shannon. But it needs to be said that as a single woman, Tropper said some really outrageous sexual comments to me and would urge me to "loosen" up. Until today, whenever I tell the story of the comments some rabbi made-- everyone topples over in their chair. Not only are they outrageous in itself, but to be coming from a rosh yeshiva??? I always knew his day would come and I didn't have to roll in the mud with a pig. I once pitied his wife. I believe she is a victim of many years of emotional abuse and manipulation. But if she can't walkout and wake up and know this is wrong, then all sympathy for her is gone. A rachmonus on her two daughters!

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