Monday, November 2, 2009

Rav Moshe:Sanctions against intemarried couples


Whether to given an aliyah to a bar mitzva boy whose father is not Jewish?

I was asked by a rav whether a boy who was born to a Jewish woman who is married to a non‑Jew is allowed to be called up to the Torah on his bar mitzva? I replied that even though it is obvious that the boy is a Jew in all respects – according to the majority of rishonim which established the halacha and consequently there is an obligation to teach him Torah and to educate him in doing mitzvos – but in fact if his mother is still living in sin with the non‑Jew and she isn’t concerned with the prohibition of the Torah and her son is being raised with them – then as for the sake of the Jewish community (migder milsa) he should be prevented from getting an aliyah on his bar mitzva and there should be no celebration in the synagogue. Similarly it is better not to accept him as a student in the day school for this reason of the welfare of the Jewish community.

Only when the mother leaves the non‑Jewish father do we need to be concerned for the Jewish nature of her children from the non‑Jew and be concerned with educating them properly. In such a case it would be proper to give him an aliya and to make a celebration on his bar mitzva.

However if there is concern that other children will be negatively influenced by accepting him into the day school - then it is prohibited to accept him also according to halacha [and not just because of migder milsa]


שו"ת אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק ב סימן עג

אם לקרא לתורה ביום הבר מצוה שלו לבן ישראלית מנכרי י"ח שבט תשט"ו.

נשאלתי מרב אחד אם יניחו לבן הנולד לישראלית הנשואה לנכרי לקראו לתורה ביום הבר מצוה שלו, והשבתי שאף שפשוט שיש להבן דין ישראל לכל דבר לרוב הראשונים שהלכה כמותם ויש ממילא חיוב ללמדו תורה ולחנכו במצות, אבל למעשה אם עדיין אמו ברשעתה עומדת ודרה עם הנכרי ומופקרת לכל האיסורין ומתחנך הבן אצלם יש למיגדר מלתא בכל האפשר שלא יקראו אותו לתורה ביום הבר מצוה שלו ולא יעשו איזה שמחה שם, וכן היה טוב שלא לקבלו ללמוד בהת"ת מאותו הטעם למיגדר מלתא, ורק כשתפרד האם מהנכרי יש ללמדו כדין ולקראו לתורה ולעשות שמחה ביום הבר מצוה שלו. ואם יש חשש שיתקלקלו ילדים אחרים עי"ז שיקבלוהו בהת"ת אסור גם מדינא. משה פיינשטיין.

52 comments :

  1. It pays to do background checksNovember 2, 2009 at 3:58 PM

    There is a day school in Hamilton, Ontario, that feeds into the Ner Yisroel mesivta in Toronto. One year, the 8th grade graduating class had a boy whose father was a goy. They were a happy family so to say. The boy did not keep kosher or shabbos. But because he had friends going to yeshiva high school, he decided to follow them. While in yeshiva, he went with the flow, but did raise the occasional eyebrow with his behavior. It took the yeshiva almost an entire year to figure it out, at which point he was expelled.

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  2. Is there a translation available?

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  3. Who is the other shita?November 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM

    A shidduch was once suggested to a young lady, a baalas teshuva who had been frum for years. The girl mentioned that she lives part of the year with her mother who is remarried to some fellow. Something did not sound right about the step-father. Upon inquiring if the step-father is Jewish, she replied that he is not. When the young man was stunned, she was taken aback that anyone would have a problem with it. A call was placed to her rov from Aish Hatorah, a Rabbi Baars in Maryland. His rebbitzen took the call and insisted that Aish Hatorah has poskim that allow this kind of situation to ensure that no potential baal teshuva is made uncomfortable and lost. The bochur felt too uncomfortable to proceed unless the girl was willing to have nothing to do with the goy. She was not willing to break the bond.

    This was twelve years ago - years before EJF was conceived. Mrs. Baars could not name any of the poskim who supposedly allow this. Are there any such poskim, or is this some baloney that came from Leib Tropper before he was pushed out of kiruv organizations?

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  4. Eternal Jewish Fraud WatchNovember 2, 2009 at 4:22 PM

    Where's Tropper? Is the (possibly forged) letter from R' Reuven mevatel the tatte's psak in Igros Moishe?

    Or will Tropper say it is his eygenna boych sevoro that is gadol bachochmo uvaminyan that R' Moishe, kaviyochel?

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  5. Who is the other shita? said...

    A shidduch was once suggested to a young lady, a baalas teshuva who had been frum for years. The girl mentioned that she lives part of the year with her mother who is remarried to some fellow
    =============
    This is not comparable to the case of the teshuva. Rav Moshe is concerned with kids who are growing up under the influence of their parents. In your case the girl is clearly frum and has been frum. However there is no question that there should be concern about her relationship to her step father - but that is not necessarily justification to ruin a shidduch.

    There is also the case of a convert whether they need to break connection with there non-Jewish parents.

    Bottom line the case of the baalas teshuva is different

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  6. Who is the other shita?November 2, 2009 at 4:41 PM

    It is clearly the shita of gedolim such as R' Avigdor Miller (recorded on tape) and others that one should have nothing to do with intermarried people, even if they are relatives.

    There was certainly no reason for the bochur to involve himself in such a situation, especially because he was uncomfortable.

    I asked poskim and was told that the only heter to have a connection of any sort with an intermarried couple is if they are people that can harm your employment or business interests because they will be offended that you don't like them.

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  7. The story with the Hamilton boy did not happen in my days at the yeshiva. But I do know a story first hand that happened there 26 years ago. I never understood how this gerus was ever valid or how the yeshivos accepted it. A boy was accepted into the yeshiva whose mother was megayer but whose father was never frum, which three Toronto yeshivos he attended were aware of, starting with Eitz Chaim. With the parents divorcing, it seemed that the woman became very frum. The boy was clearly confused and a bad hashpaah on other boys in the yeshiva. The Ner Yisroel yeshiva kicked him out after he asked his rebbe some sexually suggestive kashyas in front of the entire shiur. Next enrolled in a modern orthodox yeshiva then dropped out and became completely nonreligious.

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  8. Who is the other shita?November 2, 2009 at 5:45 PM

    I have been involved in a number of gerus cases and am familiar with others I was not directly involved in. Speaking of Toronto, I know that there have been several controversial cases there. First there were rabbonim acting on their own without Vaad oversight. They were doing things like giving crash courses in gerus the weekend before the wedding. The Vaad came down on these rabbonim with a fury and stopped these fast track scams but the Vaad is not much better. The Toronto Vaad used to allow gerus under circumstances like ger kattan with no frumkeit or even kashrus at home. They have since tightened up their standards a little bit and require a minimum of 3 things which still do NOT include shemiras Shabbos and attending yeshiva.

    The Vaad has an attitude that adult Jewish men who are chasing shiksas will do so anyway so they may as well facilitate a gerus to save the baalei taaveh from chait.

    The head of the Vaad is Rabbi Dovid Schochet, who also serves as the head of the Lubavitcher community in Toronto.

    http://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/site/resources/beitdin/

    Rav Schochet is featured on EJF's affiliate list.

    Rav Schochet also participated in the scam trip to Iowa by friends of Rubashkin to back Agri kashrus standards without having done any real inspection.

    So the question for the Vaad & Rav Schochet is whose shita are they following? Someone once tried to get the answer from the Vaad's Rabbi Baruch Taub, but Taub just bristled at him without giving him an answer. Rabbi Taub by the way was head of the OU's NCSY division when the Lanner scandal was being covered up.

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  9. Personally, I think it is disgraceful to push away a fully Jewish boy, thereby virtually ensuring that he has won't ever become frum and indeed will likely always have ill feelings toward orthodox judaism.

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  10. I am not surprised by anything that went on in Ner Yisroel Toronto in those years. It was a yeshiva where the baal habatim and menahel were in complete control and the various roshei yeshiva over the years really had no power to do anything. This is what led Ner Yisroel Baltimore to break ties with the yeshiva in 1970.

    In my days, there was a rov in Toronto who sent his son to learn in our New Jersey yeshiva, Adelphia. When he was 16, he bought fake ID and ventured to a bais zonos in Manhattan. When the rosh yeshiva Rav Trenk found out he threw the bocher against walls several times in a rage and expelled him. Because the bocher's father was friends with the Toronto menahel, he was allowed into the yeshiva in the middle of the year. The Toronto rosh yeshiva was not told the real reason of the mid-year switch. When the rosh yeshiva did learn of it, he was very angry.

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  11. Eternal Jewish Fraud WatchNovember 2, 2009 at 6:21 PM

    This is as classic as it gets.

    Rabbi Boruch Taub is a mechutan of Tropper's dear friend Leib Pinter.

    UOJ has railed relentlessly about Nosson Scherman's arrangement at Artscroll to have Leib Pinter and two of Taub's sons in high profile authorships.

    Leib Pinter, who is again in Federal prison and who once passed off treif meat as kosher, is the mechaber of a MUSSER SEFER for Artscroll.

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  12. There is an OU affiliate shul in town that allows Obama's high profile Chief of Staff married to goy to be a member and get kibbudim. The "rov" says it is not his business who the avaryan is married to. This has been covered by the press and the "rov" has ventured onto some blogs where he was heavily criticized to defend himself.

    How does the OU / RCA put up with a publicly blatant violation of halacha like this?

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  13. What about Kohanim living with women forbidden to them. There are some slick type shul rabbis who allow them to get aliyos. Any heter for this?

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  14. Reply to "who is the other Shita" You imply in your statement that you are NOT from Toronto. How do you then make such false accusations. Iknow both Rav Shochet and Rav Taub. Both are Yirai Shomayim who require Kabbolas Hamitzvos as a prequisite in any Gerus they are involved in. Either prove what you said or be quiet. Better yet ask them for forgivness.

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  15. Chani said...

    Personally, I think it is disgraceful to push away a fully Jewish boy, thereby virtually ensuring that he has won't ever become frum and indeed will likely always have ill feelings toward orthodox judaism.
    ================
    I don't understand you. You feel that a school has to place its student body at risk in order to encourage someone to be observant?

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  16. Who is the other shita?November 2, 2009 at 7:40 PM

    The Toronto Vaad does indeed say on the surface at least that they require kabbolas mitzvos but their extremely limited definition of what constitutes this is not the shita of Rav Elyashev or the normative requirements of other gedolim I am familiar with.

    One Toronto Vaad member told me that the only 3 requirements for ger kattan are attending any kind of day school, even if co-ed and nondenominational, making kiddush on Shabbos even if you are mechalel Shabbos and keeping kosher. When I asked him how they can keep kosher if no one in the house is frum enough to have neemanus or even yedios to put in practice, he said "you can kler".

    When it comes to avaryonim running after shiksas, they also officially require kabbolas mitzvos but from what I know, it is somewhat of a farce. There were a number of cases, where although the shiksa "passed the test", including where spies from the beis din observed that they were dressing tzniusdik at work, these women apparently were told by their boyfriends how to fake sincerity for Yiddishkeit. Not only did both members of the couple not remain frum after the "gerus" but people have alleged to me that complaints to the beis din during the gerus process from family members and outsiders were ignored. Two Toronto rabbonim told me of this preference of the Jew being at least somewhat observant instead of completely assimilated. I never did get a straight answer which major posek allows this. Unless someone can fill in the blanks, these are Charedi rabbonim seemingly acting like modern orthodox shysters. And here you have Rabbis Schochet & Taub with a connection to EJF that is seemingly not backed by any gedolim save a suspicious letter that be one of Tropper's forgeries.

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  17. One big happy familyNovember 2, 2009 at 7:55 PM

    Just look at the people that Tropper and Pinter associate with.

    Pinter mechutan Taub was head of NCSY. If he was still there when Lanner was finally exposed, he would have been kicked out according to the psak given to the OU, which led to the termination of several NCSY rabbis.

    Pinter mechutan Kranz was on the payroll of now disgraced jailbird Jack Abramoff. It has never been established that he has semicha from Telz as he claims. It is clear that he has connection to the Unification Church (Moonie cult) with pictures circulating of him warmly embracing Reverand Moon himself.

    Pinter's mechutan in Monsey is another story that people prefer not to talk about.

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  18. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/09/do-taxpayers-need-marriage-workshops

    Check out this magazine article on Rabbi Baars. It seems like he and Aish Hatorah have figured out an angle on a lucrative type of outreach to goyim that even Tropper didn't think of.

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  19. I think that it is ridiculous to make a blanket rule based on there simply being a nonJew in the household. Every child's situation should be judged individually considering all of the facts when it comes to school admissions. It is not a necessary, or even expected result that a goyish father means that the child is going to have issues!

    My father's not Jewish. He's also a fine intelligent kind upstanding person, the kind of man who will drive 10 miles back up the road if he discovers he got a nickel too much in change from the grocery store, the kind who contributes far more to the needy than maaser, and who is loved by all who know him. If he were Jewish and frum, he would be known as a true baal chessed. He has also always had the greatest of respect of our frumkeit, much more so, I might add, than my husband's and my Jewish parents! So, yes, I find it pretty offensive. If my brother and I had received treatment like this (and B'H we didn't - the day schools we attended and our shul were very warm and understanding), I can assure you that I wouldn't be frum today. No, my mother didn't have shul membership, but there was never any inkling that we were anything other than welcome, and our rav and rebbetzin went out of their way to take us under their wing.

    The truth is that you can come up with all the anecdotes you like, and there'll be any equally awful one that happened with an FFB kid - I've seen plenty with my own children's classmates, some with yichus galore (in fact, now that I think of it, the most troubled kids I've seen have virtually all been from FFB families). I have children, and no I wouldn't want a child in school with a child who is into illicit activities - but that's true regardless of who the parents are.

    What I would never ever say, though, is that my children's school shouldn't have children of BT's or geirim or intermarriage (as long as halachically Jewish). I don't believe that HKBH wants us to hunker down in these teeny tiny little homogenous groups where we never have to stretch ourselves to relate to people even the slightest bit different from us. Where's the merit in that?

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  20. There is what might seem like a stira between two places in Chazal if you are allowed to kick a bochur out of yeshiva who is behaving badly. Rav Ahron Kotler and the Steipler were meyashev the stira that you only kick him out when the bad behavior is influencing others.

    This is different from a bochur living at home with a goy but R' Shneur Kotler was very reluctant to kick bochurim out of Lakewood because it would create such hardship in finding a shidduch that it is like killing him. Still, this does not apply to much younger bochurim who have time to reinvent themselves in other yeshivos. The current Lakewood roshei yeshiva also moved away from this line of thinking and starting kicking bochurim out, probably because there were large numbers of problematic bochurim that amounted to nothing but trouble.

    As far as the case with the goy at home, the boy has a psul yichus and is not considered Jewish according to at least one Rishon.

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  21. Possibly even worse than the treif meat and all the genayvos, is another Pinter scandal. But people don't like to discuss that either as the details will make one chap zich a tressel.

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  22. This psak is so interesting. I would occasionally hear about incidents regarding a child with a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father being treated "unfairly" by the Jewish community, e.g. the parents meeting resistance in having their Jewish child enrolled in an orthodox day school, etc. I always chalked up such incidents as being products of non-halachic concerns and biases, but I guess I'm wrong.

    Is there any halachic distinction that can be made between 1) a child with a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father who is living with his/her mother who, while not observant, has divorced and separated from her non-Jewish husband, and 2) a child whose parents are, while both Jewish, completely non-observant. I ask this as a general question, and also specifically with respect to the last sentence of the Iggros Moshe quoted here.

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  23. I should have added that the person relating the story from Toronto mentioned that the boy was not shomer Torah umitzvos. It would unacceptable to keep such a boy in yeshiva. If he expressed a desire in being frum, that is a different story.

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  24. You are all crazy! Rav Moshes teshuva is dated 1955. Are you seriously suggesting that in this day and age with intermarriage at over 50% jewish children who want to go to yeshiva should be expelled ? or that shiduchim should be prevented? who does that help? where exactly is the migdar milsa? This is tantamount to shefichas damim.

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  25. That boy from Toronto who was kicked out of Adelphia was later said to be the thief who stole large sums of money from Ner Yisroel dormitory rooms. After leaving Ner Yisroel, some other developments finally forced his rabbi father to kick him out of the house. He left the derech completely and is today the rabbi at an Egalitarian Conservative temple.

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  26. Who is the other shita?November 2, 2009 at 8:57 PM

    Until recently in post-R' Moishe America, these types of shaylos went to R' Zelig Epstein.

    I can tell you that R' Zelig did not posken that it's fine to have a normal relationship with intermarried people.

    And who are you Mr. big shot poskunyak that you can decide what constitutes migdar milsa, shefichus damim, etc.?

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  27. And that's very interesting about Rabbi Taub and Pinter. Most people in town certainly do not know about any of that.

    I thought it was big news when I learned that Rabbi Taub's first cousin is TV personality Howie Mandel.

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  28. To observer (and perhaps also to Chani),

    "...then as for the sake of the Jewish community (migder milsa) he should be prevented from getting an aliyah on his bar mitzva and there should be no celebration in the synagogue."

    I think it's very significant to note that R' Moshe does not say the following: "...such a child and mother should be prevented, if at all possible, from attending the synagogue at all, למיגדר מלתא."

    I imagine that this psak does not give a blanket permission for a community to exclude such people from all of their institutions willy-nilly.

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  29. Does this all mean that if any Jewish child has a parent who is known to be a violator of any Torah prohibition, that this child should never get an Aliyah and be shunned from Jewish life?

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  30. Since the Rabbis usually don't convert the shaygitz for the Jewish wife, but will convert the shiksa wife for the Jewish husband (because of the problem of kids running around with a Jewish 'name') the ruling seems to play into the argument of those who believe that today's Rabbonim are misogynists more than halachists.

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  31. One shul in NY does not let a former member daven by them anymore. He is a kohen who lives with a gerusha with no kiddushin. When his son from the former wife became bar mitzva the rov made an exception that he could daven there that Shabbos but would not allow him to be oleh leTorah. The kohen has since moved to Long Island where some rabbi there lets him daven and get aliyos.

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  32. R' Eidensohn,

    With respect to the above comment by Phyllis, I seem to recall you posting a teshuva a while ago which stated that very lenient conditions for conversion can (should?) be placed upon a non-Jewish man who is married to a Jewish woman, ma sh'ein kein for a non-Jewish woman married to a Jewish man. Am I remembering correctly?

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  33. Monsey witness,

    NO.

    That is NOT what R' Moshe Feinstein means.

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  34. I know about a case where a Jewish boy was dating a non Jewish girl and the local Chabbad was mekrev them for Orthodox conversion with kabalas mitzvos. Someone told the EJF about them and they got involved, they scared the girl with their tactics and the couple left orthoddox Judaism and got married in Reform temple.

    As it turned out the girl was a scientist and the EJF freaked her out with their insistence that she will believe in 6000 years old universe.

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  35. One big happy familyNovember 2, 2009 at 9:36 PM

    That's right alumni,

    In the Tropper's alternate universe, you send Leib Pinter around to get rabbonim to sign against Slifkin but it's ok to sell treif meat & cheese sandwiches to thousands of unsuspecting Jews or to steal hundreds of millions of dollars and make some of the biggest chilul Hashem in history. As long as that alternate universe is only 6000 years old, everything else is ok.

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  36. "However if there is concern that other children will be negatively influenced by accepting him into the day school - then it is prohibited to accept him also according to halacha [and not just because of migder milsa] "

    R' Eidensohn - what is the halacha that R' Moshe is referring to here? It sounds like a general issur on exposing kids to negative influences.

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  37. Tzurah said...

    "However if there is concern that other children will be negatively influenced by accepting him into the day school - then it is prohibited to accept him also according to halacha [and not just because of migder milsa] "

    R' Eidensohn - what is the halacha that R' Moshe is referring to here? It sounds like a general issur on exposing kids to negative influences.
    ================
    No it is referring to negative influences that experience has shown are likely to be harmful.

    In some communities that means t.v. or internet in others it means parents who are not shomer shabbos and in general a non-Jew spouse married to a non-observant Jewish spouse.

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  38. Not sure if this is the best way to notify you, but I was just directed by a friend to this article at the Aish website, and thought you may find it to be of interest:

    http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48900237.html

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  39. To Gabbai shlishi:

    Such a shame that we have priestly families who aren't entirely subservient to rabbis. Fortunately thuggery will soon be effective in eliminating their older and more authentic tradition.

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  40. Prisstopolis,

    Are you trying to say that rabbis are thugs for penalizing kohanim who behave badly?

    http://pr1ss.blogspot.com/

    And what's with your Hellenistic name and weird blog?

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  41. "He left the derech completely and is today the rabbi at an Egalitarian Conservative temple."

    Can you step back for a second and think about how ridiculous you sound? This individual sounds like EXACTLY the sort of person who has been pushed away from Orthodoxy for superficial reasons; if all of his teachers had been less busy kicking him out of yeshiva maybe he would be a big (frum) Rav nowadays.

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  42. Suri,

    Why don't you look in the mirror.

    The guy went to a beis zonos and from what I heard from several of his peers at Adelphia, it became the big talk around the dormitory in yeshiva. He made a conscious and well planned out decision to buy fake ID and go to Manhattan which is quite a schlepp by bus. This is the ultimate kind of bad influence. No one "pushed" him out of yeshiva. He made his own bed so let him lay in it.

    He was lucky enough to get into another yeshiva but instead of doing teshuva, he steals large sums of money from the other boys, probably to finance a new round of carnal sins which can be quite expensive.

    He was kicked out of his home for beating his own sister.

    He didn't add up to much but used his limited learning to become a Conservative rabbi.

    He was not an abuse victim. He was given more chances to start over in yeshiva than most others are given. This is a guy who used his bechira for evil instead of becoming "a big (frum) Rav."

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  43. You can't use "limited learning" to become a conservative rabbi. I am sure that conservative _synagogues_ (temples are reform) require their rabbis to have semicha, most likely from a conservative seminary. None of that adds up with your story of him being some kind of evil hedonist - if all that were true he'd be running a "beis zonos" or selling drugs, not serving as the spiritual leader to a congregation with slightly different views about religion than yours. So I think there are three possibilities here:

    1) He never became a rabbi - that's an embellishment. In your world the phrase "Conservative Rabbi" signifies the most evil person you can imagine, so it's a nice ending to the story.

    2) He didn't do all the things you've said he did.

    or

    3) He did all those things, so he basically was a nasty person, and then did teshuva, but decided for whatever reasons to become Conservative instead of Orthodox. Ironically, you see it as one direct path. Frum -> going off the derech -> stealing -> beating his sister -> becoming a Conservative rabbi, when obviously there is a huge turnaround before that last step. In this case my question remains.

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  44. Sorry Suri, but I don't think most people here will follow your "logic".

    First of all, you have no clue how easy it is to become a Conservative "rabbi". JTS has no beis medrash. There is no need to when you don't even have to know a few chapters of Shulchan Aruch which is the minimum orthodox requirement. There have been plenty of guys who were once in yeshiva that can basically fumble through a page of Chumash or Gemara, who took those very limited skills to breeze through the Conservative exam.

    And why do you assume that patronizing zonos will necessarily lead him to open his own house of ill repute? You may be correct to ask about drug use as there were reports he was stoned for a period after yeshiva.

    And I hate to break the news to you, but Conservative "rabbis" are evil people -especially those that were once orthodox. They know better yet they lead their entire congregation astray. Do you know what a "chotai umachatee ess harabim" is?

    And how can you say he could have done "teshuva" in becoming a Conservative "rabbi"? You are a very confused woman.

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  45. Mmm, Conservative Rabbis are evil - I take it you're a fan of Rav Avigdor Miller.

    If you can't see that someone has done teshuva when he formerly went to "batei zonos" and beat up their sisters, and now is a Conservative Rabbi, you are the confused one.

    You are completely wrong about Conservative rabbis of course. Unlike Orthodox rabbis, Conservative rabbis are trained in how to run a congregation, pastoral care, etc, and they almost invariably have a degree. Orthodox shuls, especially yeshivish ones, will hire rabbi whose sole "qualification" is the gemara they have learned, which generally has little to do with leading a community.

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  46. Here you have it folks.

    Suri is mocking a gadol from years past who just happens to agree with any other orthodox authority, or at least the legitimate ones that don't hold far Left modern orthodox views that heretics are ok as rabbis. Some of these so called orthodox are heretics themselves.

    Suri completely misses the boat. Before getting into any particulars, the Conservative rabbis are pushing a philosophy that Torah is not miSinai, violating the 13 articles of Jewish faith and worthy of meisis umaydiach. Unlike the Conservative masses who do not sin intentionally, the rabbis know it is false which is what is evil.

    Suri's big qualification for leading a community is having took some bird courses at a secular university. It's true that not every orthodox rabbi is cut out to lead but someone who is truly learned knows more than anything that can be learned in university as per the Mishna Avos.

    But the Conservative rabbis busy with pastoral care are lucky. Even Micha whose incense to the idols mixed with the smoke from the Beis Hamikdash, was not destroyed because he gave food to passersby.

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  47. I know that the conservative rabbi in question has a first cousin who was caught stealing money several times at another yeshiva. He stole both from bochurim and the yeshiva's money itself, including on shabbos. The cousin also had protectzia because his father too is a prominent rov.

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  48. Thanks, Gabbai, for your spot on analysis.

    And for your information Suri, I have met several Conservative "rabbis" who are of very mediocre intelligence and skills. And that's being charitable. You make them sound like they are the greatest thing since sliced bread because of their phony "tikkun olam" political agenda. When they used to be orthodox they never amounted to much and the fake Conservative veneer they later put on doesn't fool anyone that I know.

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  49. Ner Israel Toronto alumnusNovember 4, 2009 at 4:38 PM

    The ganiv who became Conservative only stole in the dormitory during the single year he was in yeshiva. There was another ganiv who was caught stealing 3 or 4 years in a row. He wasn't thrown out because of his prestigious father who also was close to the menahel.

    What was even more disturbing is that in order to placate the boy's father, the menahel forced many bochurim to go through a charade of taking lie detector tests and rude interrogations. They knew who the ganiv was but had to harass everyone else to make Dr. Big Shot feel better that his son wasn't being singled out.

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  50. At least children are safe in Conservative day schools than most yeshivas. One reason is that the parents would go and ask a rabbi if is OK to go the police they will go immediately to the nearest police station. (in any case I am sure every Conservative rabbi will tell the family to go to the police).

    There is no Conservative posk I know about it who thinks like Pinchus Scheinberg (Tropper’s rabbi) that if there is no penetration it is not prohibited by the Torah.

    http://nymag.com/news/features/17010/index1.html

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  51. The Art of the cover upNovember 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM

    There are 2 well known cases of the Conservative movement covering up for sexual predators in their midst. One of the them used to be frum and may have been in Telz at the same time as Tropper.

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  52. The reason why that menahel could act with impunity like the baal habatim who controlled the yeshiva is because he married into one of the most powerful families in town.

    He also had an explosive temper and should never have been allowed to work in chinuch. He threw at least two boys down a flight of stairs among other things.

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