I was recently told by a baal teshuva who is married to a giyorus that he was advised to tell shadchanim that his wife is a baalas teshuva and not mention that she is a giyorus. He said that he had been given this advice by a number of rabbis. Is this deception? Why should it be permitted? What happens when someone finds out the truth?
The problem didn't start with the ger. The problem is closer to home.
ReplyDeleteIf the ger or their children will be discriminated against (and they will) the advice given is correct.
"he was advised to tell shadchanim..."
ReplyDeleteI assume you mean he was advised to tell this to his kids shadchanim.
In any event, I can see absolutely no justification for such advice. I surely appears to be deceptive. I cannot imagine this advice was provided my a reputable rabbi.
When I was in Yeshiva and was looking to get married, I asked a posek (not alive now, but really well known) when I had to tell a girl I was convert; he said (rolls dice) three times.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, that went so well for me, that when my daughter is ready to get married, I have no intention at all of telling anyone that her father is a convert. After all, it shouldn't make any difference? A convert is just like any other Jew right? We all know that's not really true, we wouldn't be having this discussion now if it weren't, but I can keep a secret.
Anyway, in this case of the giyores, I would not her advise to outright lie -- but I hear where she's coming from. Inasmuch as her status has NO bearing on her daughter's status, why saddle her daughter with additional baggage?
Joseph, the Rabbis are much smarter than you are in this one.
ReplyDeleteIt's nobody else's business if someone is a giores, unless they are thinking right now seriously about letting the young man and woman meet.
Obviously the Rabbis all meant the same thing: do not broadcast the fact that she's a giores.
The Rabbis meant that when this father and mother are talking seriously about setting up a shidduch with someone who is otherwise interested, only then they should tell the whole other side the real story. Otherwise she's just a Baales Tshuvah, which is certainly true about every ger in the world.
They never meant chas v'shalom to lie about it all the way through the pegishot.
That way they have one or two people a month who know something that is not otherwise their business--instead of everybody the shadchan calls!
Ivri Anochi: say that you are jewish first, even in the face of adversity.
ReplyDeleteThe same is true for a Ger: I found that "Ger anochi" is the strategy that provides me with most peace of mind.
Would I really like my children to marry into a family who shuns Gerim?
On the "formerly frum" blog, you will find the tale of Girl who said she was BT, and was rejected once her Chatan's family found out she was a Gioret...
Why do we need racists? I do not want to associate with them, even if it is at the price of not finding a shidduch.
Years ago I knew a couple - she was a giyores, he was a baal teshuvah, and boy did they do whatever they could to cover their past up for "the sake of the kids".
ReplyDeleteWe give lip service to the mitzvos but we do what our racist little hearts lead us to do.
Public discrimination of a ger is surely a chilul hashem of huge proportions.
ReplyDeleteAvoiding a chilul hashem is supposed to be a community priority.
"Friend of":
ReplyDeleteNo Rabbi of any repute ever permitted a Ger to lie to a potential marriage partner and falsely claim they are a Baal Teshuva -- when in fact they are NOT a Baal Teshuva but are a Ger.
A potential marriage partner has a right to know beforehand if someone is a Ger.
Joseph, another ger here. I got the same advice. Don't reveal until you think it is going somewhere, after 3 or 4 meetings and you want to continue. I think it's pretty standard advice. When I got married and had kids, I was told straight out it was permitted to lie. Why? B/c you are permitted to lie in response to a question that the questioner has no right or no need to know the answer. IIRC, I believe that is spelled out in Titen Emes l'Yaakov.
ReplyDeleteIf someone is asking a ger questions and he gives deceptive or misleading answers suggesting he is a baal teshuvah and not a convert, I can see an argument that this would be acceptable. This is because one is not supposed to remind a ger publicly of his past; so whenever one can avoid mentioning he is a convert, this might be OK.
ReplyDeleteBut when it comes to marriage partners, I think this is a bad idea. The truth will come out and everyone will be upset.
The problem is, how to respond to a community's widespread discrimination against gerim? One answer would be for leaders or respected people of the community to speak out, telling the community that you can't get better yichus (Avraham Avinu and Sarah Imenu) than with gerim, that it is wrong to discriminate against them, etc. But does anyone have the guts to stand up for gerim?
Being a ger, depending on the particular community, is like any other possible chisaron that's not immediately obvious, like having a missing toe, a congenital/chronic health condition, or a relative in jail, which may unfairly prejudice a potential match if presented merely as a line item on a shadchan's profile.
ReplyDeleteThere's no reason to advertise all chisronos of a match from the get-go, especially ones that many people will be willing to overlook after getting to know a person as a whole.
On the other hand, it's an accepted practice for someone who is dating to let shadchanim know his/her "red lines". If people *really* don't want to be set up with a ger/giores, they should make that suffiently clear to the shadchan. Cohanim do this as a rule.
Of course, I'll reserve the right to heap my scorn and indignation to any Levi or Yisrael who categorically refuses to date/marry a convert.
The most simple thing to do is just say that neither of the parents grew up religious.
ReplyDeleteA Cohen cannot marry a Ger; so how can a Ger lie? (Despite all the other obvious problems about lying.)
ReplyDeleteA potential marriage partner has a right to know beforehand if someone is a Ger.
ReplyDeleteI agree. As one, I can say a Ger is the worst possible form of human being (and that's being generous). BTW, what Rav told you that a potential mate has a "right" to know?
A Cohen cannot marry a Ger; so how can a Ger lie?
You're right, a Geriyores just can't wait to ensnare a Cohen in an aveira.
Avoiding a chilul hashem is supposed to be a community priority.
ReplyDeleteHa! Someone ought to tell that to the Syrian community.
One answer would be for leaders or respected people of the community to speak out, telling the community that you can't get better yichus (Avraham Avinu and Sarah Imenu) than with gerim, that it is wrong to discriminate against them, etc.
ReplyDeleteNo one will buy that until the "leaders" start marrying off their children to gerim. Evidently, even the scholars amongst us think little of this yichus.
Why can't a Cohen marry a Ger?
ReplyDeleteDoes this fact indicate that, halachicly, a Ger is of a lesser status of some sort?
Also, are people really more makpid if one of the parents is a ger rather than a bt? That sounds pretty ridiculous. The potential spouse is an fbb, and if you are ok with the parents being bts, what in the world is the difference if one parent is a ger?
ReplyDeleteDoes this fact indicate that, halachicly, a Ger is of a lesser status of some sort?
ReplyDeleteWell, the gemara in Kiddushin says:
קהל גרים לא איקרי קהל
Converts are not called a congregation
and then:
'לא יבא ממזר בקהל ה
Don't bring a mamzer into the congregation of the Lord
Converts can marry Mamzerim -- it rather sounds like it doesn't it?
I think waiting to tell the (non-Cohen) date about your *own* convert status until things "get more serious" is totally fine.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if you can't trust your *shadchan* to deal with your convert status with discretion and understanding, so much so that you're considering not telling him about it, it might be better to use a different shadchan.
From my memory of dealing with shadchanim, they usually want to know all about your family and life history. I don't see how you can hide your convert status from him without heaping lies on top of lies.
On the other hand, if your *wife* is the convert and you are speaking with shadchanim about your *children's* shidduchim, maybe it would, indeed, be OK (and at least somewhat plausible) to lie to the shadchan about your wife's background. Also, in this case, there is no danger of forbidden marriages.
Only if the Ger has been and still is accepted in Israel, is a Jew a Jew.
ReplyDeleteAnd just about anything can and will be found out by prospective inlaws.
It is always best to reveal upfront as much as possible.
I am a diabetic since being a teen and I will tell you that there is nothing worse than going out a few times, becoming emotionally involved only to find out that the other party is breaking off because they believe that diabetics cannot have children.
I only took that Rabbi's advice not to reveal health problems once.
I also recommend that children of a mother's or grandmother' second marriage reveal this before going out so that if the other party wishes to verify that the Get is acceptable to their Rav, that can also be done before any emotional pain.
If a Ger has not already been accepted as Jewish in Israel by the Rabbinute, then the other party needs to have his/her Rabbi make sure that the Geyor is acceptable to the standards of his community.
For the father who converted:
A Kohen and according to some traditions a Bat Kohen is not permitted to marry the child of a non Jewish father. I do not think that you want your daughter to find out two weeks before the wedding that her prospective Chusson cannot marry her because your conversion has not been accepted in Israel or by his Rav.
I have learned from experience that it is much better to reveal everything upfront.
I have seen too much emotional pain and heartbreak the other way.
FWIW, Joshua married Rachav, probably the best prostitute in the history of prostitutes. Oddly enough, people are too good to marry a giyoret who never even worked as a prostitute these days.
ReplyDeleteIt really does give dimension to ירידות הדורות no matter how big people say the "gedoylim" are.
Being a ger, depending on the particular community, is like any other possible chisaron that's not immediately obvious
ReplyDeleteBeing a ger is not a chisaron. If it is, then we have real problems -- no matter the community.
As a student of all things Hispanic, before I converted, it used to really anger me how the conversos were never truly accepted as bonafide Catholics in Spain during the Inquisition. I know, I was just a גוי then, how could I possibly have empathy for Jews. Like my long standing gemara chavrusa (and a rabbi no less who knows I'm a convert) likes to remind me: וחסד לאומים חטאת כל צדקה וחסד שאומות עושין חטא הוא להן שאינם עושין אלא להתגדל בו - nice.
Anyway, I see the EXACT same thing amongst the "עם קודש" manifest itself these days.
YN: It is a specific commandment of the TORAH, IIRC.
ReplyDeleteAS an FFB, I always had the freatest admiration for BTs and especially Gerim. I just can't understand the negative feelings people seem to have (based on comments here as I never hear any).
Joseph2
For the father who converted:
ReplyDeleteA Kohen and according to some traditions a Bat Kohen is not permitted to marry the child of a non Jewish father.
There is no such restriction in my community. BTW, I'm not a גוי. I was a גר when my child was conceived if you must know. Please tell me that you meant to say converted father and not "non Jewish father."
I do not think that you want your daughter to find out two weeks before the wedding that her prospective Chusson cannot marry her because your conversion has not been accepted in Israel or by his Rav.
Dramatic much? Anyway, my daughter has an obligation to honor her father over someone else's Rav who says (rolls D & D polyhedral dice) a בת גר צדק can't marry a guy who claims to be a כהן. In that case, I assure you, that my daughter would rather shame herself than see me shamed over a matter that is not supposed to matter at all.
BTW, I could not care less what the "State" of Israel thinks of my conversion at the moment; the host of a political-racist system shrouded in religious garb seemingly designed to oppress converts. We can only hope that Rabbi Amar can rein in these maniacs. Did I say that? I'm sorry. Sainted rabbis.
I just can't understand the negative feelings people seem to have (based on comments here as I never hear any).
ReplyDeleteLet's start your tour into this sordid world from this NYT Magazine piece about the Syrian Jewish Community.
At the end of this past August, Jakie Kassin, a community leader, grandson of the author of the Edict and son of the current chief rabbi, received a laminated wooden plaque measuring 4 feet by 2 feet for his inspection. It was the most recent incarnation of the Edict. The original Edict was a document signed by five dignitaries. Since then, it has been reaffirmed in each generation by a progressively larger number of signatories. The newest version, issued last year, was signed by 225 rabbis and lay leaders, testimony to the growth of the community and the enduring power of the Edict.
“Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.”
You see how proud they are to hate גרים? A giant plaque even. Sick, huh? Even David Duke doesn't have a a 4' x 2' sign hanging somewhere that says "I hate N----z" I'll bet.
Now where else did they have edicts reminiscent of this? Oh, I know. Nuremberg.
You can read more about this "holy" community here at http://bit.ly/8YQjDH
Daniel please calm down and watch your language.
ReplyDeleteThe statements you are posting from the New York Times are distortions and lies. This issue has been discussed in the past - type Syrian edict in the Google search window.
See this post and the comments
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/05/syrian-ban-on-converts.html
Jersey Girl said...
ReplyDeleteRaP- Here is a letter written by Rabbi Moshe Shammah:
Oct. 15, 2007
Letters to the Editor, Magazine
The New York Times
620 Eighth Ave.
New York, NY 10018
To the Editor,
Jakie Kassin is the son and grandson of rabbis and a dynamic do-gooder, but he is neither a rabbi nor a scholar of Judaic studies. The statements attributed to him in “The SY Empire” (Zev Chafets, Oct. 14, 2007) are a gross distortion of Judaism as well as of the 1935 Edict promulgated in the Syrian Jewish community of Brooklyn. That Edict was enacted to discourage community members from intermarrying with non-Jews. It acknowledged the reality of the time that conversions were being employed insincerely and superficially. Accordingly, conversion for marriage to a member of the community was automatically rejected.
However, it is important in this regard to clarify the policy of the community rabbinate and particularly that of the long-time former chief rabbi of the community, Jacob S. Kassin (the originator of the Edict), and his son, the present chief rabbi, Saul J. Kassin. I quote from an official formulation of the Sephardic Rabbinical Council of several years ago that reflects their position: “1. A conversion not associated with marriage that was performed by a recognized Orthodox court – such as for adoption of infants or in the case of an individual sincerely choosing to be Jewish – is accepted in our community. 2. If an individual not born to a member of our community had converted to Judaism under the aegis of an Orthodox court, and was observant of Jewish Law, married a Jew/Jewess who was not and had not been a member of our community, their children are permitted to marry into our community.” Based on these standards a goodly number of converts have been accepted into the community. Genetic characteristics play no role whatsoever.
No rabbi considers sincere and proper conversions “fictitious and valueless.” (The comma in the English translation cited in the article that gives that impression was the result of a mistranslation by a layman, a matter I made clear to Mr. Chafets when we spoke.)
In addition, the quote claiming that even other Jews are disqualified from marrying into the community “if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi” is a totally false portrayal of community rabbinical policy. Many Ashkenazim whose parents were married by such rabbis have married into our community.
Sincerely,
Moshe Shamah
Rabbi, Sephardic Synagogue
511 Ave. R
Brooklyn, NY 11223
Well, I guess everyone has gotten all their bile out by now.
ReplyDeleteHow misplaced many of these strong feelings really are.
Gerim are perfectly kosher and incredibly lucky to be able to join Am Yisrael.
If some Jews don't quite get it I'm not surprised. There are not many gerim around for them to get used to, and many of the best of them do not advertise it. It's not anybody's business.
And unless some of these weird non-halachic proseletyzing organizations get their way we will continue to limit the gerim in our midst to these sincere wonderful people who join us out of their own heartfelt beliefs.
And not because they were tricked into it by some high tech fundamentalist media star knockoff!
Daniel please calm down and watch your language.
ReplyDeleteDT, the "push them away" quote is a direct quote from a person that Rabbi Moshe Shamah calls a "dynamic do-gooder" in that community.
I feel good now.
Gerim are perfectly kosher and incredibly lucky to be able to join Am Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteI would say, how incredibly lucky that Am Yisrael is able to invigorate itself with gerim. We wouldn't have had Rabbi Akiva and many others if goyim hadn't decided to join.
Rabbi Shamah's response apropos this matter in his community can be summarized like this:
ReplyDelete* Some converts are considered to be Jews
* Some converts get to join their synagogues
* Some of the children of converts get to marry into the community
Daniel said...
ReplyDeleteRabbi Shamah's response apropos this matter in his community can be summarized like this:
============
Rather poor and biased summary
Anonymous Daniel:
ReplyDeleteRabbi Akiva was not a ger by the way.
I do not think it is very important for gerim to risk getting swell heads thinking Jews should bless their lucky stars there are gerim.
That's not the derech.
Check it out with big rabbis and you will find I was right...
Rather poor and biased summary
ReplyDeleteNice.
Interestingly, Rabbi Shamah, in his response does not cite a single halachic source or anything from the Torah to justify this edict. It's only my opinion, but I don't think that invoking the name of the present chief rabbi strengthens his argument.
"such as for adoption of infants"
ReplyDeleteIs converting adopted infants not proselytising?
I would warn against it!
We wouldn't have had Rabbi Akiva and many others if goyim hadn't decided to join.
ReplyDeleteHuh? Rabi Akiva wasn't a ger.
Huh? Rabi Akiva wasn't a ger
ReplyDeleteI didn't say he was.
His grandparents were.
Fortunately for us, he didn't adopt their gentile characteristics.
OTOH, maybe Rabbi Akiva was a convert after all:
ReplyDeleteWe also know that Rabbi Akiva was either himself a convert or a child of converts:
"We can hardly appoint Rabbi Akiva because perhaps Rabban Gamaliel will bring a curse on him because he has no ancestral merit." (Brachot 27b. See comments of Rav Nissim Gaon.)
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48939037.html
Let's see if I can break down this quote from the SRC that Rabbi Shamah brings down in his letter that clarifies the community's policy.
ReplyDelete1. A conversion not associated with marriage that was performed by a recognized Orthodox court – such as for adoption of infants or in the case of an individual sincerely choosing to be Jewish – is accepted in our community.
Converted babies are accepted. Sincere converts are accepted. We haven't yet gotten to who the convert is allowed to marry.
2. If an individual not born to a member of our community had converted to Judaism under the aegis of an Orthodox court, and was observant of Jewish Law, married a Jew/Jewess who was not and had not been a member of our community, their children are permitted to marry into our community.
If the sincere convert, who does not have a Syrian Jewish father, marries a Jew from OUTSIDE the Syrian Jewish community, their children may marry into the Syrian community. Their parents may never marry into the community.
If the sincere convert whose father is not Syrian Jewish wants to marry a Jew from the Syrian Jewish community, he cannot. But if his father is Syrian Jewish, he can.
The מסקנה is, converts who have Syrian Jewish fathers are the only converts who are fully accepted in that community.
Neve has a program for women that want to convert? Is this new? I have been told in the past they did not and preferred not to accept students until after gerus. Shearim also? I'd be interested in any relevant links to file away. My husband works in outreach and it comes up with relative frequency.
ReplyDeleteThe Gemara in Bava Metzia is clear that it's assur to oppress gairim so the problem is born Jews who can't seem to understand that when Hashem commanded them to love the gair Hashem actually meant it. The problem is with born Jews who don't want to do what Hashem commanded them to do, not with gairim.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that this lying wouldn't be necessary if some born Jews didn't violate the mitzvah of loving the gair. The Gemara in Bava Metzia wasn't written for kicks, it's actually meant to be taken seriously.
ReplyDelete