Sunday, February 7, 2010

Tropper scandal - What does it show?


I received this question from a well known expert on Jewish issues. I personally disagree but it is a widespread belief.

So Tropper is now gone. I think this whole affair has shown there we now have a system of checks and balances. The people, daas baalei batim, is now a check on the power of the gedolim. It was the people who pushed this issue. The rabbis would have swept it under the rug as they have done with similar things for years. But the hamon am wouldn't let them do it. And it was only the power of the internet the enabled this new structure of power in the community.
Do you agree with this analysis?

62 comments :

  1. I do not believe that the premise -- that "Tropper is now gone" -- is true. The post is therefore premature. While it is undeniable though that the internet has enabled the hamon am to challenge the gedolim, whether this will bring about real change for the good remains to be seen.

    ReplyDelete
  2. This isn't a complete or accurate observation of what has occurred.

    It perhaps applies to the Agudas and Degel worlds, who are still in complete silence and denial about the affair, becasue it was one of their own. But in Sefer Shmuel, Eli the High Priest's sons are called Bnei Belial. Of course the Neviim who recorded Books of the Tenakh had more integrity than the editors of yated.

    Next, it was actually several Torah authorities who campaigned and permitted internet criticism of Tropper. Most importantly, and especailly for this blog was the sharp intellect of Rav Shternbuch shlita, who foresaw something non-kosher in the EJF.
    At the other end of the rabbinical spectrum, the RCA was quick to condemn those acts.
    In Jewish history, there is often a lone voice or 2 who risk their own position to fight the bnei belial of their generation. In the time of Shabbetai Zvi, it was Hacham Zvi, and his son R Yaakov Emden who were the lone voices who fought the false messiah. When Chabad went messianic, and claimed their rebbe was messiah, reborn messiah, etc, it was Rav Shach who pointed out this was a false messiah - something unthinkable at the tiem, that an accepted Torah leader would turn into a false messiah.
    So it is not the rabbis per se who have silenced protest - rather the rabbis in his own fold. Rabbis outside of the EJF sphere of influence, whether Dati Leumi, or Eda haHaredis, or RCA, have been critical of this current menuval ben belial.

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  3. NO I do not agree.
    This case ha snothing to do with ordinary balabatim.

    This case has everythign to do with the internal power struggles within the Israeli Chief Rabbbinate and the entire governmental rabbinic structure and diaspora rabbbinic relations.

    The internet was used by various different Rabbis who did nto want to come out publicaly an dmake things happen.At any point R. Troppers personal supporters could have been given this information and forced him out.Agudat Israel of America could have been given this information and could have forced him out,It didn't happen that way.

    This whole case was controleld by rabbis in America and Israel who let the itnernet hatchetmen do their work.
    I don;t have time ot explain hwo things worked right now.

    But ask why is that the day before Ornads conversion it was called off.After being converted in ISrael she was warmly welcoimed by the entire community including the rabbi who cancelled her conversion.

    how is it that 2 very prominent Zionist Orthodox rabbis who generally do not do conversions all of a sudden get invovled in converting a gentile woman from America?

    Don't you see hwo speicla tis case was with hands guoiding the events across the oceans and it was not the bloggers.They were simply used.

    Organized rabbic leadership for the msot part has remained silent.without them coming out and publically taking a stand, we are still in the worl d of coverups.

    What did happen was that huge monkey has been taken off the back of the R. Amar who faces huge internal problems vis avis conversion issues in Israel and the RCA.

    This case is no way indcative of normal checks and balances in the Jewish community between daat balabatim and gedolim.It was some gedolim ( if you want to consider a cheif rabbi of Israel a gadol)and rabbnic leadership that organized and corrdinated Tropprs downfall by useing others.

    Five bloggers would normally recive the same audi and video on the same day ?
    Normal? hardly!
    Planned? Yes!

    checks and balances would be a normal and natrualy occuring system.this whole even was well corrdinated by certainn rabbis in Israel and America.they didn't have the courage to come out right and do it themselves but they did use the internet to manipulate the situation.

    The gedolim in America and Israel for the most part have remained silent.Money does make the world go round.

    "And it was only the pwoer of the internet that enabled this new structure of pwoer in the community"

    hardly right ther ein Roockland County ,NY on Emes Court you have the Wosner Beit Din who could have bene givne all of this information inn the first place.And they could have come out with a psak halacha.

    But again different people had different agendas and the blogging community was just a tool of rabbinic leadership and not of daat balabatim.

    ReplyDelete
  4. "And it was only the power of the internet the enabled this new structure of power in the community."

    DT: Why do you disagree with that? (Or whatever part of the original post you disagree with?)

    "At the other end of the rabbinical spectrum, the RCA was quick to condemn those acts."

    Eddie: After the facts. Before it broke, the RCA was (partially at least) onboard with EJF.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anon - I agree with you about RCA -
    The difference is that Rav Shternbuch didn't like the EJF activiteis at all, esp the kiruv of intermarrieds and their conversion en masse.

    RCA were in a difficult position, as they had to play to the RAbbanut pressure, to get their conversions accepted in Israel. There were several independent reports that rav Shachter of RIETS spoke at one of the EJF conferences, and gave a high level shoclarly shiur, and was shouted down by Tropper. After that he smelt a rat, and dissociated himself from EJF.

    I also forgot to mention the CER - Conference of European Rabbis. They also were in collaboration with EJF, then they changed their tune, and told EJF to stay out of Europe. I also asked why they waited for the scandal to break.

    The real issue , whcih is more shocking than all those who had some involvement and then walked out, is those who are recognized Gedolei Torah, who were fully backing the EJF, and until this day remain silent.
    I agree with the previous Anon that there is and was a greta power struggle between various sects, and since Kasrut or Shemitta are no longer the battlefields, the war has spilt over into conversions. I have many theories, but I will keep them to myself!!

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  6. i would be afraid of any society that does not allow freedom of expression and press freedom.

    Obviously, hareidi society does not allow freedom of expression and freedom of press. However, they do not always have the means to enforce it.

    If they were in charge of a state, it would be a catastrophy, not too different from communist eastern Europe, just with a different ideology.

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  7. While i agree that all the impetus to move against Tropper came from the internet and from Ba'alei Batim, I do not agree that this is called "checks and balances."

    "Checks and balances" implies that there are two parallel systems, each working towards a greater goal.

    I have not seen that there exists a functioning Rabbinnic system that has anything to add to the discussion of what is best for Clal Yisroel.

    Oh, I forgot: They did come out against women Rabbis.
    (Big deal.)

    ReplyDelete
  8. I also don't believe that we are talking about baalabatim here....

    not r' eidenson or r' dunner etc....

    what weare talking about is a time when the highest level leaders though are not able to deal with these issues due to lack of unity and therefore it is dealt with by (excuse me..with the exception of the badatz) lower tier leaders using methods like blogs....

    ReplyDelete
  9. Tropper convinced R Amar that the standards of the
    RCA conversisn were not high enough aka machmir.Tropper seemingly had backing of charedei leadershipp in Israel and America as well as oodles of money.
    R. Amar pressured the RCA .The RCA and in its need to be accepted did not stand up on it's own two feet as being Rabbis who have the authroity of psak halacha.That they represent Americna Modern Orthodoxy and not charedei driven changes.So to as not to be marginalized they implemented what they claimed was their long planned RCA GPS conversion program.This program of course came with the approval of R Amar.
    CER did not protest about Tropper until after the tapes broke,
    Roll forward 2 years.R Amar is in very hot water,One of his own Rabbis is retroactivly nullifying conversions approved by the chief rabbinate.The entire conversion program is now being threateend by non zionist charedei rabbnic employees of the rabbinate.Whoops!

    Rabbi Druckmans conversion programs have reportedly converted some 40,000 people since the special conversion courts were instittued under the auspices of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.
    What is more absurd is, that what would be permissible in Israel for a standard of conversion was set at a lower bar than conversions in America,RCA deserevs a wrap on the knuckles for giving in.But the
    RCA is aa trade union for rabbis.

    So now we have Tropper galevanting around the world being the goal keeper on conversions.
    The Rabbinat is being sued in the bagatz( Israel Supreme Court) over conversion issues,People are consdered gentiles in some Israelie Rabbinate registrars offcies and Jews in others.R.Amar's whole system is falling apart.The Rabbinate legal council wrote a brief in support of R. Sherman of Ashdods retroactive anuulment of a conversion.R. Amar disagrees with that policy of retroactive anullments.The whole Israeli system is now tetering.Conversions performed by R. Goren 30 years ago are now subject to retroactive annullment en masse.R Druckmans 40,000 conversions will be sugbject to annulmment?The RCA GPS standards are now stricter than that of conversions that legaly take place in Israel.
    The truth is that the decision was made to use standards of conversion more akin to those propsed by the maligned American Rabbi R, Mark
    Angel in Israel.Albeit they are rejected by the RCA in America and were rejected by R Amar for use in America.
    The battle here in part is between relegious zionist rabbis and charedei non zionist rabbis.Thats why Ornad was converted by three relgious zionist rabbis.Two of whom are extremly prominnet and generaly not invovled in conversions.They were selected to drive home a point.

    R/ Amar is now mandating that all questions concerning Jews who have converted be referred to a tribunal he sits on peronaly.He is taking away all authrority from local rabbinate employed rabbis from making any decisions,

    R. Amar recived the tapes,you think he knew which bloggers to give them to?Orand knew how to manuver within the Israeli Rabbinate? How did she getto R. Amar? R. Amar reads The Failed Messiah blog? Don't think so!

    There is no issue here of daat balabatim vs gedolim.
    this is a situation where overzealous rabbis got caught up in something bigger themslves and had to find away to disengage.And the rabbis themslves pulled it off.

    When you tell me that all of Agudaht Israel in America and all ofTorahU'MEsorah,Ger,Satmer,Bubov come out in one strong voice and state without equivication the follwoing.that if you even suspect your child has been abused immediatly go to the appropriate legal entities be it police, children protctive sersvices etc then I would begin to believe that daat balahabtim is finally getting somewhere vs gedolim.

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  10. rabbi eidensohon bpease call rabbi ribiat. the fight is not over he is still nasi of kol yakov he only stepped down from being rosh yeshiva

    ReplyDelete
  11. "When Chabad went messianic, and claimed their rebbe was messiah, reborn messiah, etc, it was Rav Shach who pointed out this was a false messiah - something unthinkable at the tiem, that an accepted Torah leader would turn into a false messiah."

    to Eddie: Thanks to Rav Shach, Chabad is, Baruch Hashem, growing stronger every day.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Rav Shcechter left the EJF not because Tropper shouted at him, this never happened I was there when the Rosh Yeshiva spoke. Harav Shechter left EJF because some Charedi rabbis would not want to be involved in an organization where Rav Schechter was involved. This is the true side of this story. Tropper was not the one who shouted at Rav Schechter but rather another Rov from Eretz Israel whom I will not mention his name because that would be Loshon Horah.
    I would like to pose one question. How much does Tropper has to suffer already? Isn't it enough all the humiliation and Chillul Hashem that came as a result of it all? Should a Bais Din be organized to give him Makkos? Does Teshuva not apply to this case?
    Thank you!

    ReplyDelete
  13. Tropper was both the host and carrier of a very bad virus.

    While he may finally have been quarantined, the legacy of what he has unleashed is still very much in play. The virus is nowhere near under control.

    EJF is still functioning, tainted money is being kept and the whole issue of conversions and conversion oversight is now used by some to shore up power bases, raise money and like kashrus, is a vehicle to drive a wedge between groups.

    There is more today division between groups than there ever before. Why? Because it pays.

    I would be more hopeful if in a sign of achdus, every single gadol, rosh yeshiva, rebbe, or anyone else osek in geirus etc., etc., would issue a kol koreh forbidding the profiteering from geirus. Of course, that will never happen.

    And therein lies the tragedy.

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  14. It was the Internet that brought him down.

    The audios on Youtube were far too compelling.

    Yes, the NY Post article was a shanda, but that was one article.

    The Youtube 5-part series was there everyday. As of today, over 33,000 views of part one have been done.

    If not for the objective proof of the audios and a medium in which to distribute to the masses, nothing would have happened here in the US.

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  15. The RCA and the CER were both in cahoots with the EJF when the going was good. It was only when they smelled blood, when the chips were down for EJF, did they come in for the attack and falsely pretend they never had anything to do with the EJF.

    Anon - As far as HaRav Schach zt"l, he is responsible for isolating Lubavitch to the point today where they have little support in the Torah world outside their daled amos.

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  16. People are mixing things together, based on their own agendas.

    A rabbi got caught on tape saying very inappropriate things.

    From there, however, the idea that this somehow proves that the mission of EJF is wrong or disproven does not follow.

    Others draw from the event that RCA and modern orthodox views of conversion and life in general are proven true while the chareidi viewpoint is exposed as untrue.

    You also have secular Jews lumping all orthodox Jews into one pot and suggesting or saying that orthodoxy is a farce.

    I haven't seen any yet, but I'm sure you will have non-Jews who will use this to say how corrupt all Jews are.

    And there are many other examples of this behavior.

    Let's get the facts straight and keep the facts straight.

    One rabbi -- allegedly, even apparently -- did something extremely inappropriate.

    Does that disprove the values or goals of the organizations he led? No, not necessarily.

    Does it prove that chareidi Jewry is a bunch of hypocritical , lame rabbis and lay people? No.

    Does it prove that now everyone should go to YU and allow their children to engage in premarital sex and other permissive attitudes? No.

    Does it prove that religious Jews are frauds? Or that Jews themselves are rightfully the target of all the anti-Semitic cannards that anti-Semites have been spewing for thousands of years? NO.

    Stick to the facts. One person did something very wrong apparently. Who does that reflect badly upon? That person. And that person alone.

    When you point a finger at someone, at least three fingers are pointing back at you.

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  17. So Tropper is now gone.
    ----------------------------

    unfortunately this is not true.

    he is playing games, his unofficially officially resigning was a ploy to take some heat and the spotlight off.
    as of now he has no plans of taking his name off the ownership of kol yaakov.
    thereby still controlling
    everything to do with the yeshiva.

    you can ask r' stefansky if he resigned.

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  18. Marshall, are you saying that Rav Shachter wanted to stay in the EJF but was not allowed by the haredim there? Or did he leave in disgust ? Howabout the story that somebody called him a shakran?

    Aaron S - agreed and agreed. Everyone was in cahoots with them - most of all the Lithuanian world who backed and blessed tham.

    RCA is interesting because they were also in cahoots with the Lubavitch until the shtreimel hit the fan. In both cases they denounced the heretical movements. I think its is becasue MO/RCA are so embattled and attacked by the haredim, that any time they can cooperate with Haredim they do - but then the haredi organisation turns out ot be a heretical one. R' Soloveitchik pointed this out in his Kol dodi dofek.
    Is anyone still seriously claiming the lubavitcher is Moshiach? R' David Beger wrote a book, very much inthe spirit of the anti Shabbatai zvi books. Perhaps someone can now write a book,"EJF, menuvalim, and the scandal of Haredi indifference".

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  19. The ONLY establishment group opposed to the EJF from the onset - long before the scandal after which everyone hopped onto the bandwagon - was the Badatz Eida Hachareidis.

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  20. Tropper like Freddy Krueger is not gone, just away till the next episode.

    As the 5 towns Jewish Times indicates he is one of 3 owners of Horizons Bais Achiezer Inc. (EIN 134077539, $8000000 on hand in 2008) which is the parent organization of Kol Yaakov/EJF. He still writes checks and have rabbis fighting for his shirayim.

    As long as Tropper as access to those funds he is just as dangerous as he was before he spoke those immortal words "I could role-play a rape with you but I couldn't actually rape you "

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  21. Tropper is still listed as Rosh Yeshiva on Kol Yaakov's website. Do we actually have confirmation that he resigned or is this a rumor?

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  22. Marshall, This isn't about Tropper needing to suffer. It's about his arrogance at attempting to retain power even as the whole world knows what he's done and how he's manipulated so many Rabbonim with his Kaplan cash. He needs to be stripped of that power and sit in a bais medrash somewhere without teaching others. He's no good. He hasn't done tshuva, he's denied what he's done. The minute he has power he abuses it. That teiyera Marshall, is the real inyan over here.

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  23. Aaron S:
    The ONLY establishment group opposed to the EJF from the onset - long before the scandal after which everyone hopped onto the bandwagon - was the Badatz Eida Hachareidis.

    ----------------------------

    This in itself is not a sufficient argument - since the basis of the opposition was that EJF was doing kiruv for intermarrieds. I doubt that the Badatz would accept the rabbanut; the RCA, and even some aspects of the London beth Din , eg the London Eruv.

    Furthermore, the Badatz doesnt accept the State of Israel. Even if the entire government was run by from people, as Holy as rav Kook, it still would not accept the State.

    And of course, the dati Leumi world never accepted the EJF, whether it was Rav Druckman, Rav Shmuel Eliyahu, or the Tzohar Rabbis.
    If you look at this as a spectrum - Badatz on one end, and DL on the other - they are ideological opponents.
    Mainstream haredi Orthodoxy in Israel and American went along with EJF - they are the righ tof centre of the spectrum, and rabbanut and RCA were left of centre, and they begrudgingly went along, but did not identify with them.

    Marshall's statement is interesting - he claims he saw a Charedi rabbi shouting down Rav Shachter at an EJF meeting. So, it's ok for Haredim to collaborate with a menuval; with assimilated intermarried Jews. But to cooperate with a gadol B'torah, who is modern, well that's a no-no.
    This broken way of thinking is exactly the same hypocrisy of tropper and the EJF.

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  24. This in itself is not a sufficient argument - since the basis of the opposition was that EJF was doing kiruv for intermarrieds. I doubt that the Badatz would accept the rabbanut; the RCA, and even some aspects of the London beth Din , eg the London Eruv.

    Furthermore, the Badatz doesnt accept the State of Israel. Even if the entire government was run by from people, as Holy as rav Kook, it still would not accept the State.
    ----------------------------
    That's all fine and well. The Badatz Eida Hachareidis has every right - indeed obligation - to uphold their Torah views of the State, Geirus, etc.

    Yet, the Badatz Eida were the only establishment Rabbinical group that is on the record vocally and unceasingly protesting against the activities of the EJF prior to the scandal. To their enormous credit.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Recipients and PublicityFebruary 7, 2010 at 10:10 PM

    "3) Any post with the name "anonymous" will automatically be rejected. Please pick another name to identify yourself"

    Therefore, why are "anonymous" posts being allowed?

    Either the above "guideline" is removed or it is enforced. Is there an explanation for what is going on?

    ReplyDelete
  26. "Tropper scandal - What does it show?"

    So far it shows the urgent and absolute need for:

    1. Leib and Leba Tropper must be put in CHEREM immediately! There are enough good rabbonim to do so. Tropper must PERMANENTLY give up all positions in the rabbinate. No more "rosh yeshiva" of anything no more "rabbi of this and that" and all the titles he collected like a tin pot dictator. Preferably the Tropper family must leave Monsey and settle in place like Switzerland (Tom Kaplan can buy them a chalet near a minyan) or in Florida (they have friends there) as PRIVATE CITIZENS stripped of all rabbinic rank, power and influence!

    2. EJF must be shut down PERMANENTLY!

    3. Kol Yaakov yeshiva in Monsey must be shut down PERMANENTLY!

    4. Horizons outreach program must be shut down PERMANENTLY!

    5. The Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation must be shut down PERMANENTLY !

    6. Menachem Lubinsky of LUBICOM must be boycotted PERMANENTLY for the damage he facilitated by acting as EJF's PR and propaganda czar.

    7. Tom Kaplan and his wife Dafna Recanati, the enablers of Tropper/EJF/Horizons in these last years, must be kept out from the Orthodox and Charedi community (they are not religious Jews in any case and don't care much about wanting to be religious) and not one more cent must ever be accepted from them by anyone in the Torah world, PERMANENTLY!

    8. No more funds should be accepted in the Orthodox and Charedi world from Guma (he should have a refuah sheleimah bekarov) and Jamie Aguiar, and Guma's mother Ellen Kaplan Aguiar and the Aguiar family or their Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation -- PERMANENTLY. They were also originally Tropper's enablers with the EJF scheme.

    9. Rav Reuven Feinstein must be put on notice to STOP his support of the immoral and corrupt Leib Tropper AT ONCE and NOT harass and instigate problems against those from Rav Sternbuch's side who have had the courage to speak the truth when it was not popular. Had R Reuven Feinstein heeded the advice of those from the BADATZ he would not be in the sick situation he is in now. He only has himself to blame. When you sleep with the dogs you catch fleas...

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  27. Aaron S

    I appreciate what you are saying. But there are what I see as 2 separate issues here. I have actually tried to ask this question before on this forum but not had a clear answer, or any answer!

    It is like this: EJF announces its conversion programme; Lithuanian power-brokers back EJF's conversion business. Badatz objects to the goals of the EJF. I don't know what its stance was on the Druckman affair, but that is another issue. Here is the crucial step; Stories are leaked of unethical and anti-hlachic behaviour of the Nasi of the EJF. Now, this is Manna for the Badatz, they can now say "we told you so!!"

    But does the EJF necessitate such acts? If it was headed by a serious talmid Hacham, who acted meticulously, and no scandal came out, then it would not have been the laughing stock of all the chattering classes.

    There are many ways you can look at it. You can say that Rav Shternbuch had clear Daas Torah, and could read between the lines.

    Or you can say that midos kneged midoh - all the bad faith and hattred conduceted by Tropper - eg the slifkin affair which caused so much hatred; The Druckman affair which caused so much pain for so many people (and was a rversal of the Haredi position in the 1970s); the annulment of conversions - all of this sordid affair was punishmen min hashomayim - he who digs a pit will one day fall in it. And I think this was the implied conclusion of R' Rakeffet.

    Then you can take an radical Tzioni view. The Zionism as geual sees history unfolding. hence, for example, Sharon who left Gaza is punished for this by falling into a Coma. Olmert, who threatens Eretz Yisroel, is punished with prostate cancer (lo eleinu) an corruption charges. Saddam Hussein who threatens Eretz Yisrael is hanged by his own people (like haman). And soon BS'D also by Ahmadinejad - yemach shmo.
    My personal view is the last one, and tropper who caused so much sina, is publicly shamed in the most lewd act - something nobody could even have imagined 5 years ago.

    But has I have said before Kavod to Rav Shternbuch, everything I have read of his writings are illuminating words of wisdom.

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  28. The Badatz is not on record about anything, it is Rabbi Sternbuch's personal opinion that disapproves of tropper. What will happen now? prices will be down, now that EJF is gone conversions can probably be had for $3-4,000 without a psych evaluation. Not bad, just sad for the genuine geirim, they are the victims of cruelty and not necessarily from Tropper.

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  29. In defence of Chabad mesianism - an article by jews for yashke - not for the faint heared, but one menuval defends another..

    http://www.kesherjournal.com/Issue-22/David-Berger-The-Rebbe-the-Messiah-and-the-Scandal-of-Orthodox-Indifference

    ReplyDelete
  30. Recipients and Publicity said...

    "3) Any post with the name "anonymous" will automatically be rejected. Please pick another name to identify yourself"

    Therefore, why are "anonymous" posts being allowed?

    Either the above "guideline" is removed or it is enforced. Is there an explanation for what is going on?
    =================
    The guideline is provided so that it would be easy to follow discussion more easily. If I simply reject all anonymous then we lose many valuables comments. If I rename them it would take up too much time. so I have been letting this pass - though I will reinstitute it when I have time.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Eddie:

    Badatz Eidah Hachareidis & Rav Shternbuch shlita -- EJF's biggest opponents pre-scandal (and you can look in the archives of this very blog for letters on Eidah letterhead condemning EJF long long before the scandal broke) -- are also opposed to the R. Druckman mass conversions (since the 613 wasn't accepted by the "converts") as well as there opposition to the EJF proseltyzations. The Eidah was also strongly opposed to Slifkin. (Although not necessarily the tactics used against Slifkin, but the Eidah did support the Slifkin ban.)

    I would clearly say that the Eidah's stance (call it Daas Torah or whatever) has proven itself correct now.

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  32. I think the Internet really is serving somewhat as an oversight of what is going on in Klal Yisroel. It is a way for the public to communicate back to the leadership.

    But I don't think the masses in this case were the main factor. After all, Rav Sternbuch were vehemently demanded Tropper's resignation and called him what he is - a menuval. The most powerful force is when some Gdolim use the Internet to harness the power of the masses to communicate what is right to the other Gdolim.

    So daas baalei batim isn't really the check on Rabbinic power it appears to be. And indeed, it shouldn't be a "check" on power. Rather I think the Gdolim need to harness the daas baalei batim through the Internet to seek their council and promote the agenda of Torah. It's a huge mistake that the Charedi orgs, such as Agudah, don't have a web site which would enable such valuable discourse.

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  33. TO: Tropper is Troubled:
    You are a real am Haaretz..who are you to say what should be SHUT DOWN OR BOYCOTTED? READ AGAIN THE ABOVE COMMENT:"People are mixing things together, based on their own agendas."
    What in the world is your agenda?you are trying to destroy innocent parties, organizations and gedolim..Rachmono Lzlon.YOU should be SHUT DOWN and BOYCOTTED!Dont malign others because of your agenda! What a rotten mindset you have!BTW- Change your name to your real name with TROUBLED at the end of it..please mr. DAas Torah..shut this blogger down..!

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  34. Stick to the facts. One person did something very wrong apparently. Who does that reflect badly upon? That person. And that person alone.

    Of course! You are saying this is merely an isolated incident? Yeah. Just like all the others in the world of the Haredim.

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  35. Aaron S.: "I would clearly say that the Eidah's stance (call it Daas Torah or whatever) has proven itself correct now."

    That would perhaps be if the Eidah had foreseen that Tropper is lewd. They opposed him for different reasons. The deduction does not even start.

    Eddi: "But has I have said before Kavod to Rav Shternbuch, everything I have read of his writings are illuminating words of wisdom."

    See this:
    http://www.zootorah.com/controversy/RavSternbuchHebrew.pdf (english: http://www.zootorah.com/controversy/RavSternbuchEnglish.pdf)

    ReplyDelete
  36. February 8, 2010 9:27 AM
    משה רפאל said...

    [the Eidah had not] foreseen that Tropper is lewd. They opposed him for different reasons. The deduction does not even start.


    What tropper did was about power and corruption. He got in trouble because of its sexual aspect. The eidah did see that tropper was out for tropper and cared for nobody and nothing else. So the induction did work.

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  37. Shalom Moshe Rafael,

    Thank you for your reference to rav Shternbuch's article on zoo Torah.

    It is illuminating - and I speak as a scientist who has studied Physics and Chemistry. I am as far from the Eda as possible ideologically. I have crtiicised certain criminal behaviours eg child murders and riots in that part of Ir HaKodesh.
    However, I am in agreement with a fundamental point R' Shternbuch brings - that of the Gra.
    In Physics there are 3 basic measurments - MLT - mass, length and time. These are dimensions of the phsyical world. To attribuet mass or length to Hashem is heretical (according to Rambam's worldview. There ar kabbalists who have a shuir koma etc, but that is not part of this discussion).
    Just like Hashem has not mass, (or weight or physical being) so He has no Time as we understand it.
    So what is the 6 days of creation? Is it Divine time, or human time? Or is it a moshul? That is something we can sit in Bet Midrash and discuss. But I see no problem in aging the Universe as long as you accep tthat Hashem created it in 6 days.

    If everythign that is a contradiciton of Rambam is heresy, then I am sorry to inform everybody, including Rabbis, that they can not have any pharmaceutical medicines. This is becasue modern chemistry has diproven the Greek model (which Rambam held) of 4 chemical elements to everything. Any prescription medicine is based on modern chemistry - whichis equally heretical - inthat it denies Rambam's concept in Yesodei haTorah, and also in the Zohar, that everything is made of 4 elements. The syntehsis of drug molecules; the analysis; the research ; the theroretical chemistry and trials which the drugs are based on all are based on denial of Rambam's concept of chemistry (which he in turn learned from heretics such as aristotle).

    If we are to be fundamentalist, which this arrticle clearly is, thenall modern medicine is heretical - and you can only rely on herbal treatments or those found in the Talmud or in Rambam.
    If having scientific works in your house is heretical, so is having any prescription medicine. If the rabbis cannot accept this arguemnt, then none of their other anti-scientific arguments are valid either.
    There are other derivatives as well, eg flying in an airplane may also be heretical, as it contradicts the idea that the earth is centre of the universe; and Rambam once gave an aexample that it is impossible for an iron ship to fly like a bird. So all air travel is heretical, and peopel can only travel by donkey, horse, camel or ship.

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  38. "The eidah did see that tropper was out for tropper and cared for nobody and nothing else. So the induction did work."

    Please illustrate that the Eidah stood out in this respect. I do not recall them as saying that Tropper was personally corrupt. I do know it this was claimed my people who have positions very different from the Eidah.

    If Tropper's lewdness proves the Eidah's stance, why does the violence in Yerushalayim not disprove the Eidah's stance?

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  39. Tropper was personally corrupt. I do know it this was claimed my people who have positions very different from the Eidah.

    Please provide a link from prior to December '09 from "people who have positions very different from the Eidah" that said that "Tropper was personally corrupt."

    The only one consistently on the record - even on their rabbinical stationary - protesting R. Tropper was the Eidah.

    why does the violence in Yerushalayim not disprove the Eidah's stance?

    Because the Eidah never engaged or sanctioned violence, despite the lies you obviously believed from the media.

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  40. limbo said...
    Stick to the facts. One person did something very wrong apparently. Who does that reflect badly upon? That person. And that person alone.

    Of course! You are saying this is merely an isolated incident? Yeah. Just like all the others in the world of the Haredim.

    __________

    Do "Haradim" have problems? Yes. Do non-"Haredi" orthodox Jews have problems? Yes. Do American and Israeli have problems? Yes. Do non-Jews have problems? Yes.

    If you make this into an agenda against "Haredim" but in the process think you are clearing the good name of your own group then you are the one with more problems than anyone else.

    Or perhaps you, limbo, are one of those people who pats himself on the back by thinking he does not identify with any one group and therefore can take pot shots at all of them. Guess what? If that's true, it's more pathetic than all of them.

    The bottom line is that this post was about an alleged act by one individual. Making it a reflection of a whole class of people is nothing but raw prejudice.

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  41. For Aaron S.:
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133755

    ReplyDelete
  42. Because the Eidah never engaged or sanctioned violence, despite the lies you obviously believed from the media.

    Agreed. The deduction does not catch. That was my point, because, likewise, nobody sanctioned Tropper's lewdness. You cannot concoude that in the face of Tropper's lewdness his opponents are proven right. And if you would, the Eidah is proven right and Rabbi Slifkin is proved right. Both opposed Tropper, in different issues. Do you see the point?

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  43. Aaron S-

    I have seen links and letters attacking the conversion and kiruv of intermarrieds.
    Did Eidah say Tropper was a menuval , whilst he was flashing his Haskomos from the who's who of Rabbinical leaders?

    Also we could expand this into a who said what - but my understanding is that hte Eidah is opposed to the State of Israel, and the Army (IDF).
    If these are dismantled, accoridng to the Eidah, who would be responsible for the slaughter of the Jews in Israel - the Eidah, or will they blame that on the zionists as well?

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  44. There is a troubled yeshiva guy running around the world wandering from one yeshiva to another, totally nuts, with a reform convert mother. EJF turned him down as not mentally stable enough to know what he wants. Badatz was megayer him! Now he is off around the world who knows which religion he is into now.
    RCA bais din converted a young woman (Lauren Winer)who has since then switched to Protestant and has written a book (Lauren Winner: Girl Meets G-d) about what it is like to be converted twice. Tropper has no monopoly on mistakes.

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  45. http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/18910

    This article claims that amongst other Haredi Gedolim, the EJF had support from Harav Shmuel Wozner. Am I correct in thinking that Harav Shmuel Wozner is part of the Eidah? hence, how could he give his backing to the EJF? or am i missing out on something?

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  46. I have a qn regarding intermarriage, and R Shternbuch's opposition to EJF:

    In one of the links, R Shternbuch makes a logical observation: If intermarriage and then conversion is made easy, then there will be no last barrier to intermarriage. Any Jew can go to University or work, meet a beautiful isha yafat toar, and not worry about the offspring, they can be converted, as easy as apple pie.

    The problem: The way halacha is structured, any jewish woman can intermarry - with any orel goy, and her children are 100% Jewish. They are not mamzerim, chalalim, can go to yeshiva, and be called up to the Torah.
    So no barrier exists for Jewish women, and sadly many of them have no problem in intermarrying - they are not put in herem, and neither are their Jewish offspring.
    Where does this leave Jewish men? There are maybe 30% less Jewish women than men around. So the men have no choice either - they can remain single, or be offered a divorced and infertile woman who has children form someone else; or they can marry out.

    It's simple mathematics. If 30-40% of Jewish women marry out, then 30-40% of Jewish men will not have a chance to marry a Jewish woman. What woudl R Shterbuch say to that?

    ReplyDelete
  47. "For Aaron S.:
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133755 "
    ====================
    That's a link re: the dispute between Guma Aguiar and R. Tropper.

    There are no pre-December '09 rabbi's on the record, that you can link to, that like Eidah officially declared their opposition to R. Tropper/EJF.

    Eddie:

    Pre-December '09, other than Badatz Eidah, what links do you have to any rabbinical organization putting out a statement on their rabbinical stationary condemning EJF?

    Only Badatz Eidah is on the record prior to the scandal.

    Yes, Eidah is opposed to Zionism and Slifkin. That is their 100% legitimate Torah based shitta.

    I'm not sure if Harav Shmuel Wozner shlita is affiliated with the Eidah or not, but in any event the Eidah itself is organizationally officially on the record as opposing EJF long long before the scandal broke. No other rabbinical body can make that claim. (Even very few other individual rabbis -- if any -- can make such a claim.

    ReplyDelete
  48. The way I heard it, it was rav Sternbuch own decision to oppose Tropper and the rest of the badatz just went along. Actually R’ Weiss originally supported the EJF (his signature is absent from the original November 2007 badatz letter) until he was shown the light.

    The affair does not prove that the hashkafa of the eida is generally correct, it does show the wisdom of r’ Sternbuch who was wise to see how menuval and currupt Tropper is and brave enough to stand up against r’ Elyashiv and all the rest of the rabbis who ate from Tropper’s shirayim

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  49. Aaron, there were criticisms of EJF, Tropper, and his collaborators.

    eg
    http://www.newvilnareview.com/features/is-there-an-orthodox-war-against-modern-orthodoxy-.html

    In Israel, the Tzohar group criticised a supporter of EJF, ie a Dayan who attacked the Druckman conversions.

    http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3543678,00.html

    They didnt attack EJF because it was an American outfit, but the Dayanim who cancelled Druckman's conversions often apepared at EJF functions, and received big cheers.

    Rav Sherlo called for a Herem on those Dayanim.

    And R' Gil Student often criticisd and debated with Tropper on both Slifkin and conversions. He pointed out that others could cancel Hareid rabbis for their beliefs. Indeed, the Satmar rebbe - who was at one time head of the Badatz, said anyone who votes in Israeli election is a heretic! This makes all of Degel, Aguda, Shas heretics (including rav Shach, Steipler Gaon and numerous others who either voted or instructed their followers to vote)

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  50. Eddie,

    Your two links deal with rabbis who disagree that one can question the sincerity of someone who went through a conversion process while allegedly having no plans -- even at the time he went through his conversion -- of keeping the 613 mitzvos.

    That point remains very much in contention even right now. The fact of the matter is that the Gedolim i.e. Rav Elyashev, etc. do NOT accept as a valid convert someone who went through a conversion process while he planned to not keep the 613. And Rav Elyashev et al do very strongly maintain that a Beis Din has an obligation to verify, when necessary, if a convert was sincere at the time he went through the conversion process.

    This fact transcends Rabbi Tropper, and will remain the law of the land amongst those who follow the Gedolim. It isn't going to be up for negotiations.

    R. Tropper's involvement with the Slifkin issue was that he told the signatories to the ban about 2 students of his who allegedly went off due to Slifkin's books.

    Gil Student does not discuss at all (pre-scandal) Rabbi Tropper's involvement with Slifkin. Before the scandal, there was very little mention about Tropper's connection to Slifkin. Even Slifkin's website (which has extensive descriptions of how his banning came about) has only a very brief mention of R. Tropper's involvement on his banning. It was mostly after the scandal that people threw the Slikin issue at R. Tropper along with everything else. Prior to that you heard almost nothing about Tropper and Slifkin. The Slifkin discussions focused mostly on other participants who were involved in its banning.

    The Satmar Rebbe had a disagreement with other rabbonim regarding the permissibility of voting in Israel. Eilu v'eilu. The Satmar Rebbe was the godol hador. This did NOT prevent the Satmar Rebbe from interacting and discussing Torah and communal issues with those he disagreed with, including those who held it mutar to vote.

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  51. It is more than if the convert keeps 613 commandments, it about adopting haredi lifestyle. Just like Tropper revoked conversion of a woman who wore pants and Eisenstein says that dayanim who believe in old universe, round earth, wear beige shirts and use Cologne are nor kosher to be rabbis.

    Tropper involvement with the slifkin ban was mentioned here extensivlely, even the former Tropper defender Roni call r' Eidensohn and other people who objected the EJF Slifkin followers

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  52. even the former Tropper defender Roni call r' Eidensohn and other people who objected the EJF Slifkin followers
    ============
    Actually tropper claimed that my motivation for criticizing him was the result of my being a major defender of R' Slifkin.

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  53. R. Tropper said the conversion was deemed invalid due to lack of Sabbath observance - not pants wearing. (Although if pants is against halacha according to the rabbis, I don't see why if a prospective convert rejects accepting that at the time of conversion, why that would not prevent the conversion from being effective either.)

    As far as the young universe, it is Rav Elyashev who says that failure to accept that invalidates one from being a Judge.

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  54. R. Tropper said the conversion was deemed invalid due to lack of Sabbath observance - not pants wearing

    Tropper also said "I could role-play a rape with you but I couldn't actually rape you "

    In any case I would not trust anything which comes out of Tropper’s mouth.

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  55. As far as the young universe, it is Rav Elyashev who says that failure to accept that invalidates one from being a Judge.

    Do you have any source for that ?

    And in any case after watching the video here

    I would not trust anything r’ Elyashive purportedly says

    ReplyDelete
  56. Posted by Shqueez,

    Aaron S. said...

    R. [sic] Tropper said the conversion was deemed invalid due to lack of Sabbath observance - not pants wearing. (Although if pants is against halacha according to the rabbis, I don't see why if a prospective convert rejects accepting that at the time of conversion, why that would not prevent the conversion from being effective either.)


    But none of that is the issue. Tropper has a shem of being vindictive, so this case needs looking into. Many people say or suspect him of invalidating the geirus for vindictive, not halachic, reasons. Once a shem like that goes out, we need to suspect him (like was mentioned here previously and in the audio source for the rabbinic paralysis thread).

    Now that there exist tapes (and tapes of videos being watched by those being taped), and direct allegations by at least one person who states she was pressured to do things for her conversion, we definitely need to suspect him, and ask the "pants lady" what it was all about.

    Even if she says it wasn't personal, but about Shabbos, we need to discover if she wished to keep all the mitzvos at the time of conversion. If she says yes but that she changed her mind later, she's Jewish.

    And if we find out that it was about pants, if she says she planned to keep all the mitzvos, but that she felt at the time of her conversion that wearing pants was not an aveirah, you still can't passul her.

    And even if we find out that she felt at the time of her conversion that wearing pants was not an aveirah and hid it from tropper because she knew it was an issue for him, you still can't passul her. He is not the bais din, and she was m'kabel the Torah.

    She has a chazakah now of being Jewish and we can't be choshed her. We must be choshed him. She might be living as a goy now because she thinks she is not Jewish. That is a much larger issue than doing intellectual acrobatics to kasher up a menuval.

    And yes, a bais din must have revoked her conversion, but it was based on his word. We see from the Slifkin case (whether you agree with Slifkin about the possible age of the universe) that tropper just makes things up to tell gedolim in order to get his own way.

    If you are lazy, you can start a whole pilpul on whether or not a revocation under false pretenses is valid.

    Had I been on that bais din (assuming it was not corrupt), I would be interviewing her right now instead of trying to figure it all out from my easy chair.

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  57. And yes, a bais din must have revoked her conversion, but it was based on his word.

    The beis din which revoked her conversion was the EJF in-house beis din which was run that time by Pinchus Rabinowitz. I am sure if they refused to revoke the conversion Tropper would not pay them and their children would be hungry.

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  58. We can all learn from this that Hashem in his infinite wisdom has shown us how anyone of us can be humiliated in front of the whole world with this rather "new" internet ..But let us all remember, that their's an authentic, undoctored viewing of each one of us and our sins/actions when we go for a real judgement after our passing on in this world to the next..(It's in the Rashi when Yosef reveals himself to his brothers and they are in shock)

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  59. Shqueez posted:

    careful said...

    We can all learn from this that Hashem in his infinite wisdom has shown us how anyone of us can be humiliated in front of the whole world with this rather "new" internet...


    Yes, but that only applies to those of us who have boosha. Others, especially control freaks, often want to rub in everyone's face that they can do whatever they want and get away with it. In this case money is what lets him get away with it, so he will do whatever he can to hold on to the money and power.

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  60. Shqueez,
    You dont get it do you? We all need to look into our own deeds...not judging and maligning another fellow Jew! Everyone has boosha...and maybe you are the "control freak"! Desist from your bashing./

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  61. Shqueeze posted:

    careful said...

    Shqueez,
    You dont get it do you? We all need to look into our own deeds...not judging and maligning another fellow Jew! Everyone has boosha...and maybe you are the "control freak"! Desist from your bashing./



    Unfortunately, I do get it.

    We are allowed to judge other Jews when they are in dangerously powerful positions. More so when they have shown a propensity to abuse their positions of power.

    Maybe everyone has every emotion. But for many power freaks, boosha is deeply buried by the need to feel powerful and is insignificant when the two emotions are at odds.

    Looking at others who are doing damage does not mean that I don't look at myself. Stating what's going on is not maligning. If that would be so, we would never be allowed to bring a criminal to justice.

    Don't confuse yashrus with allowing criminals to damage our society.

    ReplyDelete

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