Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Chazal say "only death atones for chillul HaShem"


Yoma (86a) [Soncino translation] Matthia b. Heresh asked R. Eleazar b. Azariah in Rome: have you heard about the four kinds of sins, concerning which R. Ishmael has lectured? He answered: They are three, and with each is repentance connected — If one transgressed a positive commandment , and repented , then he is forgiven, before he has moved from his place; as it is said: Return, O backsliding chiidren. If he has transgressed a prohibition and repented,then repentance suspends [the punishment] and the Day of Atonement procures atonement, as it is said : For on this day shall atonement be made for you ... from all your sins. If he has committed [a sin to be punished with] extirpation or death through the Beth din, and repented, then repentance and the Day of Atonement suspend [the punishment thereon], and suffering finishes the atonement, as it is said: Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with strokes. But if he has been guilty of the profanation of the Name, then penitence has no power to suspend punishment, nor the Day of Atonement to procure atonement, nor suffering to finish it, but all of them together suspend the punishment and only death finishes it , as it is said : And the Lord of hosts revealed Himself in my ears; surely this iniquity shall not be expiated by you till ye die.

What constitutes profanation of the Name? — Rab said: If, e.g., I take meat for the butcher and do not pay him at once. Abaye said: That we have learnt [to regard as profanation] only in a place wherein one does not go out to collect payment, but in a place where one does not go out to collect , there is no harm in it [not paying at once]. Rabina said: And Matha Mehasiais a place where one goes out collecting payments due. Whenever Abaye bought meat from two partners, he paid money to each of them, afterwards bringing then, together and squaring accounts with both. R. Johanan said: In my case [it is a profanation if] I walk four cubits without [uttering words of] Torah or [wearing] tefillin.

15 comments :

  1. if this is about tropper: i certainly don't want to argue with chazal, who were great enough to discuss these esoteric matters, and i am no friend of tropper's. but i don't think we are allowed to wish for the death of a fellow jew at the hands of heaven.

    on the other hand, if this post is such a death wish, then at least you're not guilty of "hating your brother in your heart", since you have publicly expressed your feelings. :)

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  2. I am not asking for or even wishing for Tropper to be punished. I am simply trying to communicate the enormity of his crime according to Chazal.

    There seems to be an attitude out there that if we close our eyes for a while this whole mess will disappear and then we can go back to normal.
    There is a deafening silence from our religious leaders - except for Rav Sternbuch. Where is the moral guidance?

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  3. >There is a deafening silence from our religious leaders - except for Rav Sternbuch.

    i see we are on the same page here- literally. :)

    i also see a "deafening silence" on the part of the msm and i must admit, the most titillating aspect of this case for me is wondering about the legal machinations going on behind the scenes right now. the silence of the rabbonim also, i'm sorry to say, probably has more to do with money and fear than any particular love of leib tropper. part of the power that he abused had to do with dangling dough in front of powerful men who were, and are, unfortunately naive about the "ways of the world"- which is tropper's specialty. a snake in the garden! i hope very much, and expect, that the rabbonim will come around on this eventually. first they need to calm down and stop worrying about their respective pieces of the pie, and rely on what was of course their original position- that torah trumps all, bribery is a sin, a judge may not be swayed by the wealth of a supplicant, etc. i do not believe, under the current circumstances, they would be foolish enough to ignore or deny these things. it is, after all, what they stand for.

    it may take some time, though. they are old, and easily startled. so am i, for that matter.

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  4. There is a deafening silence from our religious leaders - except for Rav Sternbuch. Where is the moral guidance?

    And thus it will be. If they take out Tropper and dismantle his organizations it will most likely require a Federal audit of the expenditures, where the money went, and what was done with it once it got there. Sorry but I don't see people lining up to have the Feds go over their books.

    Secondly you are tossing water into the wind if you expect the Gedolim who don't think that pedophilia is a crime/hillul HaShem enough to take action, to actually consider the actions of consenting adults to be worthwhile of condemnation.

    If Tropper had written a book about the Universe being millions of years old, then sure they would line up to condemn him, but he only committed aveirot for which a Jew is expected to die rather than transgress so why can't he continue to run a Yeshiva and a Kiruv/Charitable organization which channels millions of dollars?

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  5. >he only committed aveirot for which a Jew is expected to die rather than transgress

    sorry, i don't mean to defend the menuval, only jewish unity. what were these averot? do you consider his involvement with a "woman not his wife" to be g'lui arayos in terms of d'oraisa? if so you are at odds with the same rabbis who categorized the sins you are referring to as "the red line". i'm not supporting adultery on anyones part, and i realize the rabbonim have forbidden male extramarital activity- that's what rabbinical judaism is all about, after all, taking the bull by the horns, as it were. but the categories you refer to are d'oraisa, not d'rabbanan.

    no, death would be too good for rabbi tropper, and it has nothing to do with his sexual activities. let him, rather, repent, as opposed to the thrust of this post which seems to be that t'shuva wouldn't even help.

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  6. let him, rather, repent, as opposed to the thrust of this post
    =============
    you misread the gemora. It says that the teshuva doesn't stop death and that to be forgiven he must in addition to repenting he must die.

    If he doesn't do teshuva he is in trouble.

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  7. ah the realm of the esoteric. i doubt my own skills in this area but i don't think i misread the gmorra and i can't resist: if his teshuva has no effect until he dies, the only good it does him is in the afterlife- a bit of a stretch re: traditional definitions of the advantages of teshuva. so, if he doesn't do teshuva and moves on to gehennom, he'll be purified in a year or so and move on to more pleasant environs, yes? like everyone else?

    i'm just saying if he does teshuva it'll be good for everybody on this side of the surface of the earth (as opposed to, um, the other side). maybe even a kiddush hashem of great magnitude.

    i don't think leib tropper is afraid of gehennom. i think he is afraid of what jews and the rabbonim have to say about him RIGHT NOW, and for the rest of his miserable life. let him turn that fear into strength for himself, and for all of us. and let the holy rabbis speak up, for god's sake.

    perhaps i sound naive. but it beats the alternative (as it is said about old age).

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  8. I dont know if he has a chiyuv to do public tshuva? i think we can assume he has done a private one.

    no?

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  9. I also want to be a Rosh Yeshiva f15 minutes a day.December 22, 2009 at 5:18 PM

    Tropper is definitely not afraid of gehinnom and is barely a rosh yeshiva. for 20+ years he barely taught anything, he would come in after shacharis ...nobody knows where he actually davened shacharis or if he did at all. Now after hearing about his sexcapades it all makes sense, he was probably too tired to daven in the morning. He would give the boys a 5-10 minute mussar schmooze, then head to his office and be on the phone till noon with politicians and friends, never actual yeshiva related duties. In 10 years I saw the man crack open a Gemorah ONE time, and this was a time when he had done something scandalous and was trying to show the yeshiva what a tzadik he was. He was swaying back and forth crying as he was reading the daf. He is a class A actor, and can bring on the waterworks at the drop of a pin, something which top Hollywood actors have to use onions for. Anyway continuing with his schedule, lunch time was something he looked forward to, he would go to the fanciest of NYC restaurants, Abigaels, Wolf n Lamb, Prime Grill et al, all this while the yeshiva had no money, and his students went starving because not every day was their lunch or supper.

    Once a week he would give some sort of mussar shmooze which the whole yeshiva had to be in attendance.

    How did he manage to get away with being a part time Rosh Yeshiva for so many years? very simple. He appointed a co- Rosh Yeshiva, (Figure head,with no actual authority) Rabbi Dovid Stefansky and did have some good rabbeyem around. Tropper may be crazy, but he is not dumb, he knew how to manipulate the system. This is what he did when he latched onto Reb Yaakov in his final days. Tropper would tell stories about how he sneaked into Reb Yaakov's house and corner him into putting his name on the yeshiva. I wonder if the stooges at his yeshiva are asking him to tender his resignation, or will they let Kol Yaakov go down with EJF in one big sinking Titanic.

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  10. funkyjew. When you assume you make a you know what of you and me.

    LT has not done teshuva or davened in the last 20 years, Oh wait correction, on the tapes speaking with his mistress after he tells her that he wants to role play raping her, he says he davened that morning to H-shem and was told that the relationship with her was blessed. The man is a mishugana, he has been doing these kind of things for years and years, why would he do teshuva now? only because he is caught on tape? if he does, which i doubt he will, it will not be teshuva min ha'leib, (excuse the pun) but a false teshuva that is just for show.

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  11. Assuming his chatoim involve the people he has hurt, are we to assume he has begged them for mechila, as teshuva requires? Maybe in years from now we can assume that, but a week later it should be assumed that he's already done it?

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  12. I don't know if he has a chiyuv to do public tshuva? i think we can assume he has done a private one.

    no?

    No!

    what makes you think that? Because chazal say if you see a t"c sinning you can assume he did teshuva shortly afterward? Well in this case it seems he didn't just do a one time act. There were layers upon layers of deception and cunning misuse of power, let alone the shmutz.

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  13. I also want to be a Rosh Yeshiva...
    Please get my email address from R. Eidensohn or post an address that I can reach you at. I would like to speak with you. I'm sure we know each other.

    thanks

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  14. Recipients and PublicityDecember 23, 2009 at 10:58 AM

    "Michoel said... I also want to be a Rosh Yeshiva...
    Please get my email address from R. Eidensohn or post an address that I can reach you at. I would like to speak with you. I'm sure we know each other.

    thanks"

    Michoel, why do you need to contact that poster, wouldn't be to censor him and get him to shut up would it? So you admit that you also attended the Tropper school for scoundrels aka Kol Yaakov and now you want a whistleblower with devastating and revealing insider information about Tropper shtik to contact YOU? It sounds VERY fishy and I would advise anyone NOT to be in touch with "Michoel" at this time!

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  15. RAP,
    Please get lost. That fact that you have been so against RT is only a raya that an ____ is sometimes right. I would like to speak to that poster for personal reasons, so that maybe we can be m'chazek each other during a very painful time when we see the yeshiva where we learned from our rebbeim (the two Rav Dovid's) be associated with such disgusting shmutz. There are and have been great people there, such as Avraham Gershon Tress and other great talmidei chachamim and tzaddikim.

    I have never advocated for or defended RT. I did have feelings of harkaras hatov despite his very erratic behavior. I don't think anyone saw him sinking this far.

    Your post is really beyond ludicrous. As if getting one poster on a blog of medium readership to keep quiet (if I would for some reason want such a thing) would have an effect. You are quite silly.

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