I would like to remind everyone that the established facts in this case are few and no way validate the wild accusations - as of yet. While there seems to be alot of creative negative thinking regarding this matter. I would like to turn your collect imaginations, talents and energies to understand the defense of Rabbi Tropper. This is not a pious exercise but rather one that any prosecuting attorney needs to engage in to understand his case.
Let me state the bare bone facts. A series of audio tapes and a fuzzy grainy video of some unidentifiable people have been circulating the Internet. THE RECORDINGS HAVE NOT BEEN VERIFIED AS BEING RABBI TROPPER. No matter how much people want to believe it is - the evidence would not hold up in a court of law - as it stands now. Perhaps there is a way of verifying it electronically but that has not been done. The only other unquestionable fact is at the time these recordings appeared - Rabbi Tropper resigned form EJF. This resignation was publicized on his own website as simply a career change - not a disgraceful firing. His distinguished colleagues expressed regret over his departure. The other fact of importance is that Rabbi Tropper has an opponent - the billionaire Guma Aguiar - whom he claims has threatened his life and he feels is out to destroy him. In fact there is a Florida court order against Guma not to come physically close to Rabbi Tropper.
Given the paucity of evidence - how would you defend Rabbi Tropper from the vile accusations which are circulating the Internet? Or put in a more practical manner, how would a decent attorney hired by Rabbi Tropper word a lawsuit against those who are saying these defamatory accusations?
Let me state the bare bone facts. A series of audio tapes and a fuzzy grainy video of some unidentifiable people have been circulating the Internet. THE RECORDINGS HAVE NOT BEEN VERIFIED AS BEING RABBI TROPPER. No matter how much people want to believe it is - the evidence would not hold up in a court of law - as it stands now. Perhaps there is a way of verifying it electronically but that has not been done. The only other unquestionable fact is at the time these recordings appeared - Rabbi Tropper resigned form EJF. This resignation was publicized on his own website as simply a career change - not a disgraceful firing. His distinguished colleagues expressed regret over his departure. The other fact of importance is that Rabbi Tropper has an opponent - the billionaire Guma Aguiar - whom he claims has threatened his life and he feels is out to destroy him. In fact there is a Florida court order against Guma not to come physically close to Rabbi Tropper.
Given the paucity of evidence - how would you defend Rabbi Tropper from the vile accusations which are circulating the Internet? Or put in a more practical manner, how would a decent attorney hired by Rabbi Tropper word a lawsuit against those who are saying these defamatory accusations?
If it were the other way around, and you were forced to quit by Tropper, he would NEVER give you an ounce or mercy let alone allow you to have your voice in your own defense on his blog.
ReplyDeleteThis is therefore an exercise in the absurd and the futile, especially since on this very blog you had allowed a number of Tropper's own people to post in defense of Tropper over the years, and nothing ever came of that.
We had poster Roni/Tropper on here for close to a year uttering every conceivable defense of Tropper, go read back, and for a year+ you gave him free rein to vent and express every last ridiculous shred of argument in defense of Tropper and that was when questions of personal morality were NOT involved, so to ask for a defense now when the conditions are far worse and when at this time TROPPER's OWN VOICE are heard (as a result of which he is FORCED to quit, that's obvious) on at least three tapes in discussion with a woman seemingly of ill-repute who had presumably come to him/EJF for a "universally accepted conversion" and as everyone in kiruv knows there are many such vulnerable males and females out there who have led the lives of "regular Joes and Janes" which in American means that promiscuity is no big deal, with most US kids being sexually active from their early teens on, and knowing full-well that such people are weak, it was a relatively easy target for Tropper (like sitting ducks in the hunter's bulls-eye) as it has been for others in his shoes and they have been called on the carpet for it, but now he is in the hot seat and he must face the music.
There is nothing unfair going on, on this blog especially. You have begged Tropper in the past in the nicest of ways to communicate with you about his reasoning concerning unjustified proselytizing and what did you get for that? Insults, abuse, lies, threats and smears. The same for Rav Shternbuch when he tried to talk sense with Tropper, the whole BADATS was sent to the garbage heap in Tropper's mind for taking in Tropper/EJF.
So the question is, do you really want poster Roni/Tropper back, the one you eventually blocked, with his irrational and nonsensical defenses of Tropper because it sure sounds like you have just extended a very generous invitation to him to come back and "defend" Tropper in his present predicament.
If Roni/Tropper or his likes ever comes back here it should be great fun to watch what he would have to say.
Can't wait. Roni, hellloooo, where aaaare youuuu??? Here's your great chance buddy you may never get it again in such nice company.
Question: Given the paucity of evidence - how would you defend Rabbi Tropper
ReplyDeleteAnswer: Alleged paucity of publicly exposed evidence, that should be.
Tropper was advised to immediately retain an attorney for his defence-from/attack-against the allegedly 'vile' and 'defamatory' statements.
He could not and would not do so, because he knows only the tip of the iceburg is out there, he knows that the only reason we have refrained from splashing the whole fetid mess out into the 'velt' is reasons of tzniut and avoidance of chillul Hashem.
The only reason this much is exposed is due to the disgusting, filth-enabling erevRav misLeaders y"sh, who were approached and begged to merely demand the removal of Tropper and his wretched 'organisations' from our midst, and instead chose to follow their wallets, positions and 'glory' in most dispicable ways and means.
All of the uncensored evidence is admissible.
Every mitnaged to Troppers ouster, every defender and enabler of the abomination, has a clear motive which we have documented admissible proof of.
A logical one with common sense knows where this will lead, to whom and with what results.
B'Ezrat Hashem Yitbarach:
We are not posting exagerations, defamations, slanders or falsehoods.
We are Ezekiel 8:Groups 12/13.
A fuller release will be posted in the comments sections of all serious blogs within 24 hours.
bobX@anonymousspeech.com
RaP wrote:
ReplyDeleteThis is therefore an exercise in the absurd and the futile, especially since on this very blog you had allowed a number of Tropper's own people to post in defense of Tropper over the years, and nothing ever came of that.
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This is not equivalent to "how many angels fit on the head of a pin" or an ssignment given to a high school debate team.
Right now the rabbis associated with EJF do not think that Rabbi Tropper is guilty as charged. Thus for this to get past hurling charges at others - it is important to understand the basis for the possible defense.
This issue also concerns how this scandal will look to the broader public and most important - what changes need to be instituted to correct the problems and militate against them happening again.
If in fact the accusations are valid than it is disgusting that the call for a cleanup had to come from outsiders rather than from within EJF or from the rabbinic leaders. Who bears the responsiblity for this mess?
I have known, met with, spoken dozens and dozens of times to Leib Tropper over the past 30 years. His voice is very identifiable. His personality is very identifiable. It pained me to listen to what was so obviously his voice on the tapes. I couldn't bring myself to listen to much of the content, once it was clear that it was LT speaking. You don't resign as head of an organization you founded, and which gave you immense power and prestige in the (Charedi) Jewish world because of doctored tapes. Let's get real. And let's hope the leaders get real, while there is still a chance to salvage some of their credibility.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about holding up in a court of law. I'm sure plenty of people want him to go to jail, but why does that matter? He ought to fall and stay down, and everyone should consider if the fruit produced by him and those who associated with him might not be rotten considering the source. He is no longer the rav u-manhig and king of all the converts, and his approach should be seen as similarly flawed, and that should be enough.
ReplyDeleteTo go along with the exercise: The number one defense to defamation is that the statements were true. Bringing the lawsuit has the potential of exposing a lot more than what's already known, and given the subject matter can feed a tabloid frenzy that will completely destroy rather than rehabilitate a reputation. I don't know what forums might be available to him, but if I remember correctly, truth is protected speech under the U.S. Constitution.
ReplyDeletethe inner circle of EJF is apparently clingling to the hope that these recordings are false. Concocted by either voice synthesis or cutting and pasting that was commissioned by someone who is very rich.
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that when this is shown not to be true - that there will be a massive exit of EJF.
I believe it takes about a week to do the analysis. Thus we should hear the other shoe drop by the end of the week.
And what makes you think that the heads of EJF will not distrust the expert analysis?
ReplyDeleteSure. They got clips of Tropper saying "darlin'" and "rape" and "hell" and "love" and "sex" and "squeeze" from all his speeches over the years. Very impressive cut + paste job.
ReplyDeletePerhaps, in the future, this day will be declared as Purim-like holiday, when the pendulum started swinging towards authentic Judaism once again.
ReplyDeleteThere are already people defend Tropper saying that the woman in her pre-gyiores status is still a gentile and therefore it is not prohibited to have sex with her. The lesbian aspect is also not explicitly prohibited by the torah so if you have a willing wife and un-attached gentile woman you are halachaticly OK (and lucky, so they say).
ReplyDeleteHe likes that Tropper did outreach to goyim shelo al pi halacha.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/25155/new-york-tight-conversions-rabbi-resigns
Rabbi Seth Farber, the director of ITIM, an Israeli-based organisation that supports people going through conversion, said: “Rabbi Tropper was an important force because he got the ultra Orthodox community to recognise that conversion is a legitimate way of addressing the challenges of intermarriage and assimilation in the US. For that, he will be missed.
What about the Zohar Pashes Shemos that relations with a non jew drives the Shecina way from the world... Hell is not big enough for that rosha
ReplyDeleteI don't know Rabbi Tropper, but I am very familiar with Shannon Orand from Houston. It is without a doubt her voice. There may be those that into conspiracy theories saying the tapes are not real. They are without a doubt real, and I'm sure overtime it will be seen as such. Its disgusting that a woman with children could act in such a manner. What kind of lessons is she teaching her children? Revolting is what it is.
ReplyDeleteWhy is observer/Goldstein so upset with the woman in this story when it appears that a person in position of power abused their power. Goldstein feeling left out?
ReplyDelete