Wednesday, November 18, 2009

Missionary tactics against Muslim & Jews

Jersey Girl's response to question of Christian missionary activity with Muslim.

I have asked a few of my muslim business contacts if they are having problems in their mosques like we are having.

One man who lives in Qatar told me this:

"There is a large mosque that is very beautiful and was built by a family he knows. Many "Americans" started coming to this mosque and converting to Islam. They joined the mosque and became influential in its politics. Eventually they replaced the imam with someone else who turned out to be a Christian missionary. Now, this mosque is a church but it looks like a mosque. They do all of the same prayer rituals but the imam preaches Christianity. All ofthe Muslims in the area know about this mosque and do not go there. He prays at home because he does not live close enough to anothermosque to attend.

I spoke to a Moroccan Muslim lady about this. She sells for me for 3-4 years now. She is married with a baby and her whole family lives nearby. They are what I would consider the Muslim equivalent of MO. Very solid in their very traditional faith. She told me the following:

"In her mosque there is a new imam. Yes, there are many many new converts to Islam in her mosque. Last year for the first time, they had a Christmas party in the mosque with a festive meal and cakes. They exchanged gifts for Christmas". I asked her why would a Muslim celebrate Christmas, it is not a Muslim holiday. She answered that "the imam said that Jesus is a prophet and that the mosque should celebrate his birthday with a festival and gifts".
Another contact, a Moroccan woman named H who lives in England told me:
"There is a woman who comes to her mosque. She is very very verypious. She attends all of the prayers and covers with a khimar (this is a very long cape like covering that is above and beyond the headscarf) and a niqab (face covering, also not required by Islam, way beyond), she is very very pious and I should learn from her. (H does not cover her hair, but she does dress modestly). H told me that her new friend is single and has no friends since she converted to Islam. So she invited H to come home with her to her family for Xmas last year, "for moral support". She took H to church and candlelight mass and then to Xmas dinner with her "large extended family". H enjoyed it very much, it was very beautiful and because they knew she was coming, they purchased kosher meat (where she lives there is no halal market and so she buys kosher meat as do many Muslims in the West). I told her that I thought that this woman was a missionary and that this was staged. At first she was appalled that I would say something about this "sincere and pious convert". But then she asked around and found out that this woman has taken several women from the mosque to her Church.

My former neighbor, KB has told me that "Jesus never had any place in Islam, it is the result of missionaries that anyone would consider Jesus a prophet"

But do an internet search and you will see that in the West, Muslims are being bombarded with the concept that Jesus is a prophet in Islam.

On another topic, I have also spoken to a Hindu neighbor of mine.

She told me that her family has been aggressively invited for Xmas each year by their neighbors. She does not want to go, but feels very compelled to go because the neighbors tell her that "in America, it is considered traitorous not to celebrate Xmas because it is an American holiday". She is also similarly invited for Thanksgiving which she does not want her family to celebrate. But she works on Thanksgiving and Xmas (double time pay) and while she is at work and her husband is home with the kids, the Christian neighbors aggressively invite them.

This is nothing new and should be expected. But the concept that missionaries are converting to Judaism and Islam in order to witness in the shuls and mosques is fairly new. (I can write you about synagogues they have taken over too BTW).


  1. Umm... There is an entire surah of the Qur'an titled Maryam discussing the alleged virgin birth of Issa. The believe that A-llah revealed to us the Tawrat (Torah) and Zabur (Tehillim), and through Issa, the Injil (Gospel). And here is his death, as described in the Qur'an. Moslems believe that Issa was a prophet and the promised messiah. All of which the Shaitan than got us to mangle, requiring yet another revelation...

    How do people just outright post something trivially disprovable like claiming Jesus has no role in Islam?


  2. One more thought on Quran 4:157-8 to which you link in your post:

    The Encyclopedia of Islam (Second Edition), Vol. IV, pp. 83-84.
    explains about this particular verse (which is often used by Christian missionaries to trick to Muslims into believing that Islam acknowledges Jesus):

    "The Qur'an speaks of the Jews' opposition to Jesus and the apostles, but also states clearly that the Jews did not kill or crucify Him (Qur'an 4: 157-158)."

    The verses you refer to are a historical account, similar to that in the Talmud.

  3. This is from a Muslim anti missionary site. Note the similarities to our own problems:

    "Be aware of the problem of mistranslating. A person who is not familiar with Arabic can be lead to accept a mistranslating which puts a Christian "twist" on a verse that never had such a
    meaning in the original. If you can't check it out yourself, talk to a reliable person who can. Remember, it is no coincidence that the Muslims of past generations, who were much
    better versed in the Arabic, never had any serious problems refuting Christian missionary arguments.

    In addition beware of Christian Translations of the Quran, many date from sixteenth to the eighteenth century with the sole intention of to discredit Islam.

    Please keep in mind ANY translation (interpretation) of the Quran will most definitely contain errors in its natural language (Arabic).

    Often a verse will be quoted by a missionary that has been taken entirely out of context. When the entire chapter that contains that verse is read, it becomes clear that it does not corroborate the Missionary.

    There is a very large number of publications by Muslims explaining Islam in plain and simple English. Look in any public library for books on Islam, a large proportion of them will be by orientalists and Christian missionaries, what do
    you think motivates someone to write a book on a subject one does not believe in and an area that has been already covered by numerous other books? Remember Christian "Translations" of the Quran whose sole intention was to discredit Islam.

  4. R. Eidensohn,

    This is an embarrassment. Please remove this post, it is unequivocally drivel.

    Oso HaIsh is mentioned repeatedly in the Koran, which I read twice in my miss spent youth. He is the last major chain in the "mesorah" prior to Muhammad in the view of Islam.

    I don't know why you put up with such paranoia

  5. I agree with Yirmiahu. This post is an embarrassment. There is little more than hear say given as "evidence".

  6. Why would a Hindu care about xmas or thanksgiving one way or the other? Or have a problem with it? They are the most extreme of polytheists and believe every religion to be true. Something that gave a lot of grief to the Muslim invaders of India. Apparently Sharia states you can't chop of someone's head for being an idolater if they will pronounce that there is no g-d but Al... something which Hindus have no problem with saying... but then they will turn around and worship some other false deity.

  7. Recipients and PublicityNovember 19, 2009 at 9:15 AM

    Actually, without realizing it, Jersey Girl is actually pointing out something very real and very unique that is taking place in the world in very recent times.

    It is the theological equivalant of a "global economy" whereby traditional, cutural, economic and yes especially religious barriers between people, nations and groups is melting away and in its place emerges a hybrid "world religion" made up of all the religions, even if they all contradict each other.

    This is actually a fulfilment of the original goals of Alexander the Great and his Hellenizers. In their day they wished to merge all cultures and all peoples, with the Greek culture being the cherry on top. What is happening now is that all the major religions are merging. The only question is which one will be the cherry on top in the end. Some might say that in the end it will be Judaism, the religion of the Jewish messiah. That is one reason the global jihad was launched. Islamic purists like Bin Ladin and the secretive Saudi Wahabis who control the Caliphate (they grabbed it in WWI with American help from the Hashemites who had been usurped by the Turkish Sultans for about 400 years) who know the dangers of speedy globalization and religious tolerance that will eviscerate their religion.

    The Christians do their thing, they have had their problems since the Renaissance and Enlightenment since the 1500s. The core Christians though are the Catholics and they have been losing ground to enforce pure Catholicism for centuries already, but they are also facing pressures to make peace with other religions and there is a lot of ecuminism on the go. The present Pope Benedict is trying to turn the clock back, but it's near impossible.

    Jews have been swept away by the floods of all this. In the lands of Christendom, they barely survived the "last crusade" of the Holocaust to continue being assimilated and apostacised by missionaries and natural absorption into Christain families around them (more Jewsish men have married Catholic girls in America than any other group) while the Reform, Conservative and the ultra-left wing of the Modern Orthodox movement has no real answers to the tidal wave of freedom of religion and the merging of all religions, so they often become no different than the Reform in laxity of standards, sending their kids to public schools and secular colleges en masse (yeshivas an Jewish day schools are "too expensive" and parochial for them) and being tolerant of every last drop of secular life.

  8. Recipients and PublicityNovember 19, 2009 at 9:16 AM

    (Regarding Jersey Girl): In the lands of Islam Jews were expelled in the the 20th Century with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism from the influence of the German Nazi-trained and launched Muslim Brotherhood that sows seeds of anti-Semitism venom wherever it sprouts which is everywhere.

    The lands of Islam are more Judenrein than the lands of Christendom, but there is one great exception, the modern state of Israel with its present 6 million Jews and counting in the heart of the Arab Middle East has become the largest gathering of Jews since the destruction of the 2nd Temple 2000 years ago, when Christianity and Islam did not even exist.

    But the fact that there are so many Jews in a sea of Muslims and Arabs drives the Islamic world crazy with rage, as one can see with the Iranians, Libyans, Saudis, Syrians, and all the rest who have so many differences with each other, such as Sunnis versus Shias, but are united against what they perceive as their common Yahood bogeyman and foe.

    Interestingly, tow points two note:

    Pne, the only types of groups that manage to resist the trend to the merging of religious life and practices (because they are essentially devalued while the Humanistic core is emephasized) are the very religious who study and stick to their ancient texts, like the Charedim among the Jews, the strict Catholics -- especially its vast clergy of nuns and monks from whom their ruling priesthood is drawn -- the Christians who follow the New Testament strictly (the Protestants deny all this and hark back for inspiration to the Old Testament as they see it), and Islamic purists like the Wahabis the guardians of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina who live by and enforce the Koran and Sharia laws.

    The second point is that it is actually one of the "secrets" of the radically new president of America's success. Obama is an expression of this new "merge" not just in politics and culture but in religions and ideologies. His mother was white, they stemmed from Christians and radicals, his father was black and with his step father was a Muslim. They say that Obama carries various trinkets and charms from all the major religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, he can spout the Koran, knows about Christianity and when he was a student at Columbia University in NYC he spent time learning about Jews and Judaism, not to mention that his advisers and brains are Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod who are leftwing radical yet somewhat Jewishly observant.

    Welcome to the 21st Century, where you can expect more of this kind of stuff.

  9. The story of Jesus is allegedly mentioned repeatedly in the Talmud (which I learned in my 'miss spent" youth in feminist minyans):

    Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a
    Talmud Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a
    Talmud Sanhedrin 67a
    Talmud Sanhedrin 43a
    Talmud Sanhedrin 43a
    Tosefta Chullin 2:23

    However, there can be no denying, that Jews do not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity.

    Some Muslim scholars believe that the New Testament (and therefore Jesus) predicted the coming of Muhammad.

    Some Muslim scholars also believe that the Old Testament, Isaiah 42-54 particularly predicts Islam and that Isaiah 7:14 describes Muhammad.

    Muslims believe that Jews, because they do not believe in Muhammad as a prophet do not accept the word of G-d. Obviously, Islam is a belief heretical to Judaism.

    My reason for these posts however, is not to conduct a theological discussion of Islam which I am certainly not qualified to have.

    My point is that Christian missionaries worldwide are using the same tactics to distort Islam into an "Islamo-Christian" faith as they are using to market a 'Judeo-Christian" tradition.

    There is no "Judeo Christian" tradition. Both Islam and Judaism have traditionally considered Christians who, worship Jesus as a god to be idolators who "follow other gods".

    Christianity is antithetical to both Islam and Judaism. Christians believe that belief in Jesus has replaced the laws of the Torah.

    Neither Judaism nor Islam consider the possibility of the "Second coming of a dead messiah" although both faiths are now seeing this distorted and once held heretical belief being incorporated in the ranks of the "orthodox" among both faiths.(ie. Lubavitch and the various Mahadist sects).

    In addition, both Islam and Judaism are witnessing (pun intended) Christian theological ideals being incorporated into mainstream religious life.

    (Ie. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah #179, it is not allowed to say verses to heal a sick person and yet everywhere we see now gatherings to "psalt" for the sick, a practice originating with Jesus and one of the things for which he was excommunicated. When I was growing up, we gathered to cook, shop provide child care and visit the sick, not to psalt for them. What changed?).

    I continue to believe that this phenomenon deserves more attention from our Rabbis and community leaders.

  10. Eternal Jewish Fraud WatchNovember 19, 2009 at 4:17 PM

    EJF's Doron Kornbluth is also working for Rabbi Schuster's Heritage House. Has anyone seen the "intermarriage" video they are distributing?

    POB 14503
    Old City, Jerusalem 91145 ISRAEL
    Director: Rabbi Meir Schuster


    Provides free lodging for Jewish teens and young adults in Jerusalem's Old City.

    "INNERNET" Magazine

    Selected articles from Jewish books, magazines and other sources.

    Love and Legacy Seminar

    Contact: Doron Kornbluth


    A kit comprised of two trigger field videos: one on intermarriage and one on Jewish pride as a basis for discussion; a guide book that includes questions, quotes, background information and insights into group dynamics; a CD-ROM with advertising material. The package is distributed for free, on condition that the organization commits to a time-frame for running the seminar as well as for doing follow-up


    Rabbi Shaul Farber, director of the Jewish Life Information Center (ITIM), said on Thursday that "it is not plausible that marriage registrars who are employed by the country and are getting paid by the Chief Rabbinate will make up their own mind whether to recognize documents issued by their employers."

    "Registrars who distrust the Chief Rabbinate must resign from their positions. If they don't do it themselves, the state should do it," Farber added.

    Following this recent phenomenon, ITIM institution opened a hotline that will guide converts and help them bypass the rabbis. The hotline number is 1-700-500-507.

    Ashkelon's Chief Rabbi Haim Bloy reponded by saying: "I am a haredi rabbi who follows the ruling of haredim halachic leaders. They ruled that only those who received the burden of the Torah upon themselves will not be questioned.

    "90% of converts in the IDF or elsewhere do not observe the mitzvoth after their conversion. I am not a man of conflict. If the Chief Rabbinate demands that I open marriage files for them, I will consider it," he said.

  12. There is no debate here, Islam, the Koran, teaches unequivocally that oso haish is a prophet. A million irrelevant citations from the Gemara doesn't change that.

    It is sad that someone who is so involved in marbitz Torah has given platform to such a teruvos of unconfirmed anecdotes and outright falsehood.

  13. Bottom line, the Qur'an teaches that there were four revelations of sacred texts. They list the Torah, Tehillim and lehavdil the gospels as revelations. Of course they then say that each got corrupted, which is why the next text was needed. Until you get to their prophet and their book.

    They do not "accept Jesus" in the Xian sense, since they are monotheists, not trinitarians. But they do count him as a prophet and consider him the messiah.

    The gemara simply says that some one, actually between 2 and four people, lived and did things. At least one of them was named Yeishu (although he lived too early to be their guy). The gemara is far from laudatory, and if it actually refers to their Yeishu (as the censors assumed) then their guy is a composite figure from people who lived over a spread of 2 centuries.


  14. "But they do count him as a prophet and consider him the messiah."

    This is only true "in America".

    This is one of the most common tricks that missionaries use to try to convince Muslims that Islam recognizes Jesus as the Messiah.

    If you could see the original Arabic, the word used to describe Jesus is "annointed" but it refers reflexively in the grammar to "their annointed", meaning the "annointed of the Xtians".

    Arab Christians do use the word "Masih" to describe their Messiah who they believe if Jesus.

    Orthodox Muslims believe that when the End of Days comes, Jesus will stand up before G-d and explain to the Christians that they were mistaken about him.

    In Islamic eschatology Mahdi (lit. Guided One) is the prophesied Redeemer.

    Islamic concepts of Mahdi and the End of Days are not universal.

    Sufis believe in a Redeemer very much similar to the Jewish concept of the Messiah.

    Shia Muslims believe that the Mahdi will be the 12th Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi, a descendant of Muhammad who will return from the dead.

    And the Sunnis do not believe in a single formal doctrine although many believe that the Mahdi will be a descendant of Muhammed.

    One belief that all Muslims share about the Mahdi (Redeemer) is that he will fill the world with justice and fairness at a time when the world will be filled with oppression.

    Unfortunately, many Muslims do not study their own faith in its original language as many Jews do not.

    And as I has said in a previous post, many of the readily available English translations, are slanted toward Xtianity.

    (By the same token, if a person knew nothing about Judaism and went to the most readily accessible source of Judaism in America, he would either contact the "Reform" or he would learn that "Jews believe in a "risen from the dead Messiah" also. )

    When I have questions about Islam or the Quran, I usually consult with the translations authorized by the Syrian Consulate or with an Islamic studies professor who was educated in the Middle East.

  15. Micha,

    You say "the Qur'an teaches that there were four revelations of sacred texts. They list the Torah, Tehillim and lehavdil the gospels as revelations."

    Are you getting that from a translation (that might be tainted as Jersey Girl asserts), or the original Arabic? Please show your source. I want to learn the truth of this.

    We know the Xtians are out to change Judaism from within. Wouldn't be surprising if they are doing it to Islam too.

  16. Jersey Girl:

    Messiah and Madhi are different concepts. Islam teaches that Issa was the messih. He is called that in the line I pointed to. Also in 3:45. Two verses later (scroll down) is the virgin birth, which they also believe.

    Yes, they deny any claim that Yeishu was divine. (For that matter, Islam is so against any hint of paganism, they cite pesuqim about "Yad Hashem", "charon apo", etc... as evidence of Shaitan's handiwork, scrambling the revelation at Sinai.)


  17. I don't know Arabic from a hole in the wall. But when the translation says "messiah", I'm told that the original is "mesih", and it discusses virgin birth, it clearly is at odds with JG's description.

    I pointed you to where in the Qur'an I got it. That text the URL points to has three translations of each verse. Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation is from 1934, Bombay. Mohamad Habib Shakir was an Egyptian Judge, and published in the early 20th cent. Marmaduke Pithal converted to Islam from Xianity, and also worked in Bombay, in the 1920s. None were American, and of the three, only one was writing for a particularly Xian audience.

    And again, the original is "masih", cognate to the Hebrew.

    Why all this effort on broken rumors about someone else's religion, anyway?


  18. Micha,

    As Jews we all know by now that
    Christians also try to read the Tanach without the Oral Law. They come up with "Jesus is the Messiah" in every other verse it seems.

    The Quran (3:45) you cite as "evidence" that Muslims believe in Jesus as Messiah and the Virgin birth is a very well known as one used by Christians missionizing to Muslims.

    The Quran in this section gives a historical account of a man who was known as "Jesus Christ", a man who was revered by Christians who were already a sizable group in the year 610 AD when the Quran was begun to be compiled.

    The Arabic word for "Christ" which is how the man was known, is masih, which is the Aramaic (the common language among Christians and Jews at the time). Arab Christians have referred to Isa Masih as their Messiah/god for 2000 years, predating Islam by about 700 years.

    This does not mean that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah or that Muslims believe that he is the son of G-d via the Virgin birth.

    In fact the authentic commentaries to the Quran explain that when the "End of Days" will come, Jesus himself will get up and tell his followers that they were wrong.

    Here is one officially authorized commentary explaining the verse you refer to:

    Note 32 (Quran Ref: 3:45 )

    Lit., "whose name shall be `the Anointed' (al-masih)". The designation al-masih is the Arabicized form of the Aramaic meshiha which, in turn, is derived from the Hebrew mahsiah, "the anointed" Its application to Jesus may have been due to the widespread conviction among his contemporaries (references to which are found in several places in the Synoptic Gospels) that he was descended in direct - and obviously legitimate - line from the royal House of David. (It is to be noted that this could not have related to his mother's side, because Mary belonged to the priestly class descending from Aaron, and thus to the tribe of Levi, while David descended from the tribe of Judah .) Whatever may have been the historical circumstances, it is evident that the honorific "the Anointed" was applied to Jesus in his own lifetime. In the Greek version of the Gospels - which is undoubtedly based on a now-lost Aramaic original - this designation is correctly translated as Christos (a noun derived from the Greek verb chriein, "to anoint"): and since it is in this form - "the Christ" - that the designation al-masih has achieved currency in all Western languages, I am using it throughout in my translation.(Quran Ref: 3:45 ).

    Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translations are considered controversial due to several modifications that run contrary to traditional schools of Islamic thought. I had been warned to avoid Asian translations of the Quran as these are almost always influenced by Christian missionaries.

    Mohammed Habib Shakir, has been stated as "a well known translator of the Qur'an into English." However this idea is contradicted by the fact that Mohammed Habib Shakir was against the translation of the Qur'an and considered the rendering of the Arabic into any other language unlawful.

    The fact that "Marmaduke Pithal converted to Islam from Xianity" is self explanatory in itself.

    This effort on "broken rumors about someone else's religion" should be an illustrative lesson about the extent of Christian infiltration into our own faith and traditions.

    And THAT is scary!

  19. I have read the Qur'an in a translation approved by the Saudi Committee to Promote Virtue and Prevent vice several times when I was in university. It claimed to have been a project of many of the top Wahabi Imams for use in English language schools both in Saudi Arabia and abroad. In the introduction it does state that it is an "interpretation" but also notes that even native Arabic speakers read the Qur'an in a "translation/intrepretation" as the archaic form of Arabic used there in is not spoken. It was entitled "Nobel Qur'an" and was published by Darussalam Publishers and Distributors in Riyadh. It can be read online here. Essentially it is like the Artscroll version of the Tanakh, while a translation may inherently be interpretive, this has the interpretation given it by Orthodox Muslim Scholars.

    All that to say, as simple reading(the print edition is much better because of the ample notes) will show the distortions in JerseyGirl's claims. The Qur'an is an antisemitic Muslim supremacist document.

    (39) Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous."
    40) He said: "O my Lord! How can I have a son when I am very old, and my wife is barren?" Allah said: "Thus Allah does what He wills."
    (41) He said: "O my Lord! Make a sign for me." Allah said: "Your sign is that you shall not speak to mankind for three days except with signals. And remember your Lord much (by praising Him again and again), and glorify (Him) in the afternoon and in the morning."
    42) And (remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of her lifetime)."
    (43) O Mary! "Submit yourself with obedience to your Lord (Allah, by worshipping none but Him Alone) and prostrate yourself, and Irka'i (bow down etc.) along with Ar-Raki'un (those who bow down etc.).
    (44) This is a part of the news of the Ghaib (unseen, i.e. the news of the past nations of which you have no knowledge) which We inspire you with (O Muhammad SAW). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed.
    (45) (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."

    Read on and you will see what was Issa's mission to Israel according to Islam and how Jews are under judgement ChV"Sh for rejecting him.

  20. Another choice quote:
    (84) Say (O Muhammad SAW): "We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] and what was given to Musa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."
    (85) And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

  21. From CAIR's website:

    "It will be interesting to note that orthodox and conservative Jews just like Muslims also follow the Divine laws (Halha) that were revealed to Moses (may peace be upon him) in Torah".

    Notwithstanding that, Maimonides referred to Muhammad as a false prophet and asserted that Muhammad's claim to prophethood in itself disqualified him, because it contradicted the prophecy of Moses, the Torah and the Oral Tradition. Rambam further asserted that Muhammad being illiterate also disqualified him from being a prophet;there are many common aspects between Islam and Judaism, both of them being strictly Monotheist religious traditions originating in a Semitic Middle Eastern culture. Islam is in fact similar to Judaism in its fundamental religious outlook, structure, jurisprudence and practice as many traditions within Islam originating from traditions within the Tanach or from the Oral tradition.

    From, Rabbi Ken Spiro:

    One of those impressed by the Jews' uncompromising devotion to monotheism was a young trader named Mohammed ibn Abdallah. In the early stages of his spiritual awakening, Mohammed came to be greatly impressed by the Jews.

    Although his travels had exposed him to Christianity and he was clearly influenced by it, he found aspects of it troublesome -- in particular, the doctrine of the Trinity did not seem strictly monotheistic in his eyes. He is recorded as having said:

    "Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary' ... Unbelievers are those that say, 'Allah is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Koran, Sura 5:71-73)

    However, there is no doubt that in the early stages of his spiritual awakening, Mohammed came to be greatly impressed by the Jews. Writes S.D. Goiten in Jews and Arabs (pp. 58-59):

    "The intrinsic values of the belief in one God, the creator of the world, the God of justice and mercy, before whom everyone high and low bears personal responsibility, came to Muhammad -- as he never ceased to emphasize -- from Israel."

    He clearly had some knowledge of the Torah as later he would quote Moses (though usually not accurately) more than one hundred times in the Koran, the record of his teachings which became the holy book of his newfound religion. Of the 25 prophets listed in the Koran, 19 are from Jewish scripture, and many ritual laws, as well as civil laws, of Islam parallel Judaism -- circumcision and prohibition against eating pork, for example.
    Mohammed believed the ancient tradition that the Arabs were the other children of Abraham - through the line of his son Ishmael by the Egyptian maidservant Hagar - and that they had forgotten the teachings of monotheism they had inherited ages ago. He saw his mission as bringing them back. Paul Johnson, in his History of the Jews (p. 167), explains:"What he [Mohammed] seems to have wished to do was to destroy the polytheistic paganism of the oasis culture by giving the Arabs Jewish ethical monotheism in a language they could understand and in terms adapted to their ways. He accepted the Jewish God and their prophets, the idea of fixed law embodied in scripture - the Koran being an Arabic substitute for the Bible - and the addition of an Oral Law applied in religious courts.

    The one problem Mohammed had faced in Medina - and elsewhere - were the Jews, who were not prepared to accept his Arab version of Judaism. In the same way they had previously rejected Christianity, so too did they reject Islam.

    It must be pointed out, however, that Jews had a lot less problems with Islam than they did with Christianity. Islam was purely monotheistic, whereas Christianity incorporated a lot of pagan mythology into itself. Islam did not claim that Mohammad was "god" or "son of God" or that God came in three parts. Islam followed many Jewish laws and customs, unlike Christianity which disavowed the law of the Torah in favor of faith in Jesus.

  22. Ultimately Jerseygirl wants to paint Evangelical Xtians as the Jews' worst enemies and Muslims as their friends. The fallacy in this lies in understanding the intent and dangers of both groups. Both groups are set upon converting everyone in the world, including Jews. This is the essential spiritual danger... a danger which I will argue can be easily abrogated with a good solid Jewish education.
    The next difference is that Xtians need the Jews and alive and preferably living in Israel for the end time scheme to work(though preferably converted). Muslims on the other hand do not, and instead advocate active violence against Jews... Below is an inclusio(a statement made which will be finished later, and everything in between gives definition to its meaning) taken from the 9th chapter of the Qur'an(once again I am using the Saudi approved translation)
    (5) Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As- Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
    Then a little further down it tells us who is included in this...
    (29) Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    (30) And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
    (31) They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
    (32) They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).
    (34) O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah (i.e. Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism). And those who hoard up gold and silver [Al-Kanz: the money, the Zakat of which has not been paid], and spend it not in the Way of Allah, -announce unto them a painful torment.

    finally closing the inclusio here:
    (36) Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allah on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, (i.e. the 1st, the 7th, the 11th and the 12th months of the Islamic calendar). That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) collectively, as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allah is with those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

  23. PS. This is EXACTLY why many Sunni scholars absolutely forbid translating the Quran and the Surah.

    With regard to our own tradition, I believe that it is very important for our children to study dikduk intensively.

    Also, I believe that the intensive study of Tanach is neglected in our schools in favor of Gemara.

    It is appalling that a Rabbi who was educated at top yeshivas all over the world should open his mouth to say "David Hamelech was a mamzer". And even more appalling that not one of the 200 frum people in the crowd should question the statement.

  24. "PS. This is EXACTLY why many Sunni scholars absolutely forbid translating the Quran and the Surah."

    Because then you can't make stuff up about what it says...

  25. Jersey Girl said...

    PS. This is EXACTLY why many Sunni scholars absolutely forbid translating the Quran and the Surah.

    That is a very difficult statement to make considering that it was a translation done and authorized by top Sunni Scholars. The reason that there are those that resist translation of the Qur'an is twofold. First they don't want the non-Arabic speaking world(aka non-muslims) to see what it is they are saying about the rest of us. Secondly as the Arabic of the Qur'an is not the Arabic spoken today, and as the vast majority of the world's muslims don't speak Arabic or read it(though they will have the Qur'an memorized in a language they cannot comprehend) it makes them dependant upon the imams. Which in turn establishes the ability for radicalize elements of their society with fair ease.

  26. We teach all of our children Biblical Hebrew, Rashi script and Aramaic so that they can read the Tanach, Rashi, Midrash, Mishnah and Gemara in the original language.

    Orthodox Muslims scholars, encourage Muslims worldwide to learn Arabic in order to study the Quran and commentaries in the original language.

    As far as "not wanting the world to see what Muslims say about non Muslims"- The Quran, like the Torah and Talmud must be read in the proper context.

    Otherwise we have the following misconceptions about our own faith:

    Sanhedrin 58b- If a Gentile hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed.

    Sanhedrin 57a- A Jew does not need to pay a Gentile. If a Jew murders a Gentile, there is no death penalty.

    Bava Kamma 37b- If the ox of a Jew gores the Ox of a Gentile, it is okay. Gentiles are outside of the protection of G-d's laws.

    Bava Metzia 24a- If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile, he does not have to return it.

    Yevamot 98a- Gentile children are like animals.

    Avoda Zara 36b- Gentile girls are whores (zona) from birth.

    How about the Purim story? Don't we rejoice over the destruction of the "Persians"?

    And at Hanukkah time, we rejoice over the destruction of the "Syrians".

    During Pesach we rejoice over the destruction of the Egyptians.

    Keep reading out of context and with mistranslations and Judaism sounds like a pretty violent and racist religion for a bunch of terrorists, doesn't it?

    Then we have our Rabbi Manis Friedman who said that Jews should kill all Arab men women and children.

    That's right, genocide is a Jewish religious belief.

    Absurd, isn't it?

  27. But according to Islam, Jesus IS a prophet. In fact, that is actually an ISLAMIC MISSIONARY technique. They market their religion to xtians on the basis that they do not reject the 'prophecy' of yashka. (Even though in reality, of course they do not hold of the theology that xtians do). Perhaps THAT (the "x-mas party") is why there are so many new converts in that Morrocon Muslim woman's mosque.

    Isn't it funny how every Muslim claims that there are so many new converts in his local mosque. And yet you ignore their very aggressive missionary activity and only have blame for the xtians because afterall, "some of your best friends are Muslims..."

  28. The bottom line here appears quite obvious to me: That Rabbi Eidensohn should stick to Torah and Judaism because he is woefully ignorant of Islam, and despite knowing personally a few Muslims, what Muslims truly believe. With all due respect, Rabbi E.

  29. Jerseygirl,

    I am appalled. I have noticed that for some time you are willing to twist the truth to prove your point, but I never thought you would take your information from anti-semites and white supremacists. If you had even read the Soncino translation of the Talmud(which was done by non-Jews and Apikorsim) you would see that even in a translation meant to do harm to the Jewish tradition, those pages don't read as you state.

    On the other hand I brought to you valid sources from a translation authorized by the imams of Saudi Arabia, with their explanatory notes.

    You claim that it must be explained within their own tradtion. Fine let us here what they have to say, when they think no one else is listening.

    A show that even involved a police inevestigation that left the police apologizing to the show

  30. Then there is the followup, which can be found here:

    Beyond this, where is the Jewish version of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Quaida, Fatah ect...

  31. The bottom line here appears quite obvious to me


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