did the "consultations with gedolei Yisroel" give Tropper the heter to "uphold proper conversion practices" by bartering conversion certificates for cheap sex with converts together with his wife in the same bed?
See below from yated Neeman's article ( so every word must be true).
"Eternal Jewish Family (EJF), headed by HaRav Leib Tropper which works extensively to uphold proper conversion practices around the world based on consultations with gedolei
Yisroel, is warning against certain Chief Rabbinate
officials who are offering support and recognition for modern
rabbis who do not operate in accordance with halacha and is
urging the Chief Rabbinate to announce publicly that it will
" HaRav Reuven Feinstein supervises all EJF activities." http://www.chareidi.org/archives5766/BHR66aconvrsion.htm
Does that include activities of its esrtwhile President Mr Tropper?
The reason I am posting these statements form yated is to demonstrate that it is all sheker, and to draw a general froma specific - Hareidi macha'a and its self-aggrandising claims has to be subject to a great deal of skepticism.
Even working within the framework of consulting "gedolei Yiroel" does not mean anything, and the absurdity of these statements has been exposed wide open.
Your point being since they knew Tropper's conduct they shouldn't have published the above? And how do you know they knew? So if they didn't know it was o.k.?
My point being the way the article is written and its claim to authority. How can one argue with the Yated? How can one argue with the diktat of crown prince tropper, especially since he held consultations with the greats of the generation. But the biggest stretch is the word "proper". Yes, he is in the right place and right time (as koheleth says "and money answers everything") So everything he does is "proper", but those modernists, are "improper" because the yated says so.
At the time, EJF was an ambitious project to do kiruv to the intermarried in USA, converting the non jewish half, and children if necessary.
They also asserted that they and only they could do proper conversions, and they had to be in charge of universal standards. This has never been the case. The giur has always been done by dayanim in each community, across the world, with different circumstances.
Some jumped on the bandwagon, some didn't. A Rav from North America, who headed a conversion Beth Din, has told me that he found Tropper appeared to be a charlatan (even before his behaviour was exposed) , and didn't join his organisation!
You asked 2 questions:
And how do you know they knew?
The assumption is they didn't know. It came as a big surprise.
So if they didn't know it was o.k.?
This is a bit like a paradox in Quantum Physics called Schroedinger's Cat. A cat is put in a lead chamber , and cannot be seen form the outside. Some radioactive material will be giving off harmful radiation, but from the outside, we cannot tell if the cat is alive or dead.
If they didn't know - it is still not OK! And my reasons are different to yours. Your reason is that Rav Shternbuch opposed them, even before his sin was publicly known. That is a good reason.
My reason - is that yated, its political backing, and the Poseq hador in the lithuanian tradition are not equal to the Shnei Luchot HaBrit. This is both theoretically and operationally false. What happened is not shoggegot but zedonot. Normally, my claiim is that Papal/Rabbiical infallibility is false because of shoggegot, but this was actually zedonot! The Gadol is not an all knowing oracle - he doesn't know what goes on outside his own room. he doesn't know what his own BD is doing - fact Noson Kamenetsky was not given an oportunity to respond tothe claims against his book, and rav elyashiv saw that his own BD was corrupt, and not working according to halacha.
So grandiose claims of "proper conversions" are deceptive. A humble BD does not need to be part of some new network, they can act honestly and according to halacha.
The other question is money - there was so much money changing hands in the troper days, that even Tzaddikim who received gifts from him could have been swayed. He bought his way to the top, and this is totally assur in halacha.
I would add to it also, what the Brisker rav said about the Rabbanut. The short version is well known, but his reasoning was that having a central authority for halacha is dangerous, as we have traditionally had lots of independent poskim, and this is a change in structure. Let's put ideology and Zionism aside , and this is a very good argument, and I think it applies to the EJF as well.
so small, can't read the names on the grey panel
ReplyDeletedid the "consultations with gedolei Yisroel" give Tropper the heter to "uphold proper conversion practices" by bartering conversion certificates for cheap sex with converts together with his wife in the same bed?
ReplyDeleteSee below from yated Neeman's article ( so every word must be true).
"Eternal Jewish Family (EJF), headed by HaRav Leib Tropper
which works extensively to uphold proper conversion practices
around the world based on consultations with gedolei
Yisroel, is warning against certain Chief Rabbinate
officials who are offering support and recognition for modern
rabbis who do not operate in accordance with halacha and is
urging the Chief Rabbinate to announce publicly that it will
not back these rabbis."
http://www.chareidi.org/archives5768/VKR68aejf.htm
" HaRav Reuven
ReplyDeleteFeinstein supervises all EJF activities."
http://www.chareidi.org/archives5766/BHR66aconvrsion.htm
Does that include activities of its esrtwhile President Mr Tropper?
The reason I am posting these statements form yated is to demonstrate that it is all sheker, and to draw a general froma specific - Hareidi macha'a and its self-aggrandising claims has to be subject to a great deal of skepticism.
Even working within the framework of consulting "gedolei Yiroel" does not mean anything, and the absurdity of these statements has been exposed wide open.
Your point being since they knew Tropper's conduct they shouldn't have published the above?
ReplyDeleteAnd how do you know they knew?
So if they didn't know it was o.k.?
My point being the way the article is written and its claim to authority.
ReplyDeleteHow can one argue with the Yated?
How can one argue with the diktat of crown prince tropper, especially since he held consultations with the greats of the generation. But the biggest stretch is the word "proper". Yes, he is in the right place and right time (as koheleth says "and money answers everything")
So everything he does is "proper", but those modernists, are "improper" because the yated says so.
typical cynical analysis
ReplyDeleteBut what about facts?
Facts?
ReplyDeleteWhat is known to us:
At the time, EJF was an ambitious project to do kiruv to the intermarried in USA, converting the non jewish half, and children if necessary.
They also asserted that they and only they could do proper conversions, and they had to be in charge of universal standards. This has never been the case. The giur has always been done by dayanim in each community, across the world, with different circumstances.
Some jumped on the bandwagon, some didn't. A Rav from North America, who headed a conversion Beth Din, has told me that he found Tropper appeared to be a charlatan (even before his behaviour was exposed) , and didn't join his organisation!
You asked 2 questions:
And how do you know they knew?
The assumption is they didn't know. It came as a big surprise.
So if they didn't know it was o.k.?
This is a bit like a paradox in Quantum Physics called Schroedinger's Cat. A cat is put in a lead chamber , and cannot be seen form the outside. Some radioactive material will be giving off harmful radiation, but from the outside, we cannot tell if the cat is alive or dead.
If they didn't know - it is still not OK! And my reasons are different to yours. Your reason is that Rav Shternbuch opposed them, even before his sin was publicly known. That is a good reason.
My reason - is that yated, its political backing, and the Poseq hador in the lithuanian tradition are not equal to the Shnei Luchot HaBrit. This is both theoretically and operationally false. What happened is not shoggegot but zedonot. Normally, my claiim is that Papal/Rabbiical infallibility is false because of shoggegot, but this was actually zedonot!
The Gadol is not an all knowing oracle - he doesn't know what goes on outside his own room. he doesn't know what his own BD is doing - fact Noson Kamenetsky was not given an oportunity to respond tothe claims against his book, and rav elyashiv saw that his own BD was corrupt, and not working according to halacha.
So grandiose claims of "proper conversions" are deceptive. A humble BD does not need to be part of some new network, they can act honestly and according to halacha.
The other question is money - there was so much money changing hands in the troper days, that even Tzaddikim who received gifts from him could have been swayed. He bought his way to the top, and this is totally assur in halacha.
I would add to it also, what the Brisker rav said about the Rabbanut. The short version is well known, but his reasoning was that having a central authority for halacha is dangerous, as we have traditionally had lots of independent poskim, and this is a change in structure. Let's put ideology and Zionism aside , and this is a very good argument, and I think it applies to the EJF as well.
ReplyDelete