Tiferes Yisroel on Mishnayos was super happy when dinosaur bones were found in Baltimore because it, in his opinion, backed up the Midrash which clearly states that Hashem built and destroyed 364 worlds before this one.
This is a more interesting article and uses more sophisticated argumentation. Rambam writes in his Guide for the perplexed about the idea of eternity of the universe, which the Greek philosopher Aristotle held. He Said that if this position could be proven we would need to accept it and reinterpret Jewish sources. It's surprising that none of these rabbi's even that maimonides had already set a methodology for these problems. Reinterpreting Midrash is not heretical according to Rambam!
I find it strange that he proves Hashem's input from the world's rotation and claims that this is modern science. To the contrary, science ascribes the rotation to momentum and it was the Rishonim who spoke of Hashem turning the Galgal.
If there is no time in Heaven, then this is what Slifkin is essentially saying, what seems to be 15 billion years is nothing form Hakadosh Baruch Hu's side - or 6 days, and the 7th is Shabbat. Why is it nonsensical that man evolved from more primitive apes? We even hav some neanderthal DNA. Adam harishon was created, but there were humans and hominids living more than 6000 years ago. Even in America, the "Indians" came 30,000 years ago.
Why do apes, look so much like humans, have similar intelligence, biology, social behaviour, if we have no relation to them at all? They have fingers and nails like humans, but they alse have thumbs on their feet so they can clim b trees. And genetics show that we are very closely connected to them. Perhaps they were the last animal to be created before Adam?
He mentions Rambam in terms of authority of sages, but does not mention his views on Science , which he wrote about extensively, and was, together with Ralbag, one of the greatest Rabbinical experts on Science.
I don't know if the great Rav ever mentions Rambam's philosophy, but he wrote Moreh HaNevuchim which dealt with the equivalent questions of his own age.
Rambam says that the planets , including the moon , are intellects, with no physical form. However, man has sent rockets, robots to many of these planets, including Mars, to take pictures, films, and analyse samples of the rock and sand on the surface. On the Moon, we have sent people to walk , and come back, with rock samples. Here we see the complete opposite in views, of for example, the hareidi leaders, and the Modern Orthodox. Rav Goren stated that the evidence of the moon landings, are strong enough to discard the view of the Rambam on this aspect of science. But in this essay, Rav Shternbuch doesn't even include the Rambam in the mesora, as a bridge from the Rishonim to the Acharonim!
All the planets spin on an axis, as well as orbitting the sun. The forces are physical forces, which Hashem has created in the first 6 days of Creation. It is curious why he is somehow blaming the scientists for AIDS, when in fact that is a monkey borne virus which Africans caught from eating bush meat, then it passed on to humans through mishkav zachar, and then other means. (remember the Nosi of mishkav zachar was J. I. De Haan, of the AIdah) Regarding Covid - which came after this article was written - possibly it was a result of tampering by chinese scientists. however, look at what science has done not only for covid, but for all the other diseases which devestated families, - smallpox, typhoid, cholera etc. And the greatest of Kabbalsits, the Arizal and Ramchal, both died very young from plagues, which might today have been preventable.
Finally, there are many other things that contribute to longer life- treatments for heart disease, cancer and many other ills. How these have come about through science is miraculous, and it has not been reproduced by anyone through kabbalah or or other religious means, eg the cures given in the Talmud. Rambam the doctor wrote a reatise on asthma, which was as real then as it is today, yet today there are many treatments, inhalers etc which make life almost normal for people with this disease.
and what is rav Yaakov's view on the 4 elements? Rav Reuven Margoliot said that this was proof that Rambam got hsi ideas from the Zohar, since the same concept is in the Zohar. Prof Scholem, says that the opposite is true. There was a book called Torah and Science by Judah Landa, a physics teacher, who took the scientific view. In any case, if this is just philosophy, it means Rambam didn't take it from the Zohar. And that we are also free to challenge Zoharic claims about some scientific matters (though theZohar already has ideas about gilgul - genetics, about Big bang, etc.)
Okay, here we go "This in spite of the fact that our Sages have explicitly taught that the world is no more than 6000 years." Which sages? Because if it's Chazal, then in 4000-5000 years, really. Also, many of Chazal taught that the Earth is a flat disc and the atmosphere is a dome and the Sun revolves around it. Need I go on? This is not a discussion on halakha. No one is disrespecting Chazal or diminishing their authority by pointing out that they were speaking using the science of their time which was far more limited. Their halakhic rulings remain uncontested. It's just this "If you disagree with Chazal on anything, anything at all, even stuff they disagreed about, you are an INFIDEL!" attitude again. "Are the result of an agenda to establish the belief that the world is entirely natural." Strawman. No, that's not the agenda. God created the world. We want to understand how. It's as simple as that. All His works are wondrous and the way He made them should be properly studied, not ignored and replaced by dogma. "They are trying to make our holy Torah compatible with the views of scientists" Well yes, because the scientists have figured out lots of stuff so since the Torah is true, we have to figure out how to understand the Torah so it doesn't contradict the evidence in front of us. Clearly it doesn't so we have to understand how that is. "If a person believes in miracles" How is this relevant? God is suddenly a magician creating a billion year old world out of nothing complete with fake dinosaur bones? He's a trickster, chalilah? "Nevertheless their concern is to make this miraculous event as close to nature as possible" And what is the problem with that? God created nature. By making this event close to nature, we are still acknowledging God's essential role in Creation. "Man is extremely limited and not capable of understanding the act of Creation." Very true. Still no idea where the Big Bang came from if not from God Himself. No one disputes that. There is no lack of faith in this. We believe God created the Big Bang and guides all subsequent development through the laws of nature that He established and continues to maintain. "they prefer to explain that man is the product of millions of years of development." Clearly he's never read Rav Kook, ztk"l, because if he had he'd seen that Rav Kook clearly notes there is no contradiction between believing that God created the world and accepting the slow process of evolution. Is he a greater scholar and more pious Jew than Rav Kook perhaps? Is he calling Rav Kook a heretic, chalilah? "They do this despite the fact that there is no clear proof for their views" Anyone with a modicum of scientific training would recognize how ridiculous this statement is. The amount of knowledge that goes into understanding the study of the age of the world and the universe is vast and complex. But again, "it's not Torah so it's nothing" 'They rush to find isolated statements of the Sages" Again, standard approach - any argument I come up with, any support I find in the literature, doesn't count because he doesn't agree with it. I could go on but it's all repetitive - there is one way of understanding the Torah - his was. There are plenty of opinions - but only the ones that agree with him are legitimate. If you disagree - you are a heretic. Even if you're someone as great as Rav Kook, ztk"l. For all his genius, his writing is this essay is dismissive and simplistic.
certain people are not even considered in these discussions. To mention Rav Kook in this context is wishful thinking, he is not accepted in that part of the world. But Rambam is ignored. Ralbag is ignored. Ralbag was such a great scientist that some of his instruments are still used today. And how can you have an honest discussion of science and Torah without even referencing Rambam? (Ok, he is cited only where he speaks about the authority of the Sanhedrin in halakhah)
And what about Saadia gaon?
her eis a great article which takes a different view, including that of the Gra
Rav Shternbuch was also the strictest during covid, on social distancing and closing minyanim, based on a rational approach to the science and medical advice. As the Brisker Rav would say, he was machmir on pikuach nefesh.
To his dying moment, Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai was fearful that he'd made the wrong decision when Vespasian gave him his three wishes. What if he'd have asked for Yerushalayim? (The Midrash tells us what happened but Gittin skips over it) Imagine - a man as great as RYbZ and he was unsure about his decision. Didn't he have Daas Torah? Imagine RYbZ today. We'd be told that his not asking for Yerushalayim was Daas Torah and how dare you question it! My father, a"h, warned me to stay away from rabbonim who were certain that they not only had answers to the big questions but were also certain that only their answer was right. I wonder if RYbZ might have agreed.
It tells several accounts , including the bitter controversies, his writings, but towards the end his view on Science and Torah is presented - it is very interesting. Whilst he was fighting Reform the way Rav Emden fought Sabbateans, he is open to science, philosophy and even foresees the development of Big Bang in science and Zionism in the next (20th) century.
Tiferes Yisroel on Mishnayos was super happy when dinosaur bones were found in Baltimore because it, in his opinion, backed up the Midrash which clearly states that Hashem built and destroyed 364 worlds before this one.
ReplyDeleteThis is a more interesting article and uses more sophisticated argumentation.
ReplyDeleteRambam writes in his Guide for the perplexed about the idea of eternity of the universe, which the Greek philosopher Aristotle held. He Said that if this position could be proven we would need to accept it and reinterpret Jewish sources. It's surprising that none of these rabbi's even that maimonides had already set a methodology for these problems. Reinterpreting Midrash is not heretical according to Rambam!
I find it strange that he proves Hashem's input from the world's rotation and claims that this is modern science. To the contrary, science ascribes the rotation to momentum and it was the Rishonim who spoke of Hashem turning the Galgal.
ReplyDeleteHis statement that a person with x view is not a heretic but only a heretic has such a view seems paradoxical.
ReplyDeleteIf there is no time in Heaven, then this is what Slifkin is essentially saying, what seems to be 15 billion years is nothing form Hakadosh Baruch Hu's side - or 6 days, and the 7th is Shabbat.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it nonsensical that man evolved from more primitive apes? We even hav some neanderthal DNA. Adam harishon was created, but there were humans and hominids living more than 6000 years ago. Even in America, the "Indians" came 30,000 years ago.
Why do apes, look so much like humans, have similar intelligence, biology, social behaviour, if we have no relation to them at all? They have fingers and nails like humans, but they alse have thumbs on their feet so they can clim b trees. And genetics show that we are very closely connected to them. Perhaps they were the last animal to be created before Adam?
He mentions Rambam in terms of authority of sages, but does not mention his views on Science , which he wrote about extensively, and was, together with Ralbag, one of the greatest Rabbinical experts on Science.
I don't know if the great Rav ever mentions Rambam's philosophy, but he wrote Moreh HaNevuchim which dealt with the equivalent questions of his own age.
Rambam says that the planets , including the moon , are intellects, with no physical form. However, man has sent rockets, robots to many of these planets, including Mars, to take pictures, films, and analyse samples of the rock and sand on the surface. On the Moon, we have sent people to walk , and come back, with rock samples. Here we see the complete opposite in views, of for example, the hareidi leaders, and the Modern Orthodox. Rav Goren stated that the evidence of the moon landings, are strong enough to discard the view of the Rambam on this aspect of science. But in this essay, Rav Shternbuch doesn't even include the Rambam in the mesora, as a bridge from the Rishonim to the Acharonim!
ReplyDeleteAll the planets spin on an axis, as well as orbitting the sun. The forces are physical forces, which Hashem has created in the first 6 days of Creation.
It is curious why he is somehow blaming the scientists for AIDS, when in fact that is a monkey borne virus which Africans caught from eating bush meat, then it passed on to humans through mishkav zachar, and then other means. (remember the Nosi of mishkav zachar was J. I. De Haan, of the AIdah)
Regarding Covid - which came after this article was written - possibly it was a result of tampering by chinese scientists. however, look at what science has done not only for covid, but for all the other diseases which devestated families, - smallpox, typhoid, cholera etc. And the greatest of Kabbalsits, the Arizal and Ramchal, both died very young from plagues, which might today have been preventable.
Finally, there are many other things that contribute to longer life- treatments for heart disease, cancer and many other ills. How these have come about through science is miraculous, and it has not been reproduced by anyone through kabbalah or or other religious means, eg the cures given in the Talmud. Rambam the doctor wrote a reatise on asthma, which was as real then as it is today, yet today there are many treatments, inhalers etc which make life almost normal for people with this disease.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2019/07/rav-yakov-and-moon-landing.html
ReplyDeleteAnd to this day, in the right yeshivas, they rip that page out of the book.
ReplyDeleteand what is rav Yaakov's view on the 4 elements? Rav Reuven Margoliot said that this was proof that Rambam got hsi ideas from the Zohar, since the same concept is in the Zohar. Prof Scholem, says that the opposite is true. There was a book called Torah and Science by Judah Landa, a physics teacher, who took the scientific view.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, if this is just philosophy, it means Rambam didn't take it from the Zohar. And that we are also free to challenge Zoharic claims about some scientific matters (though theZohar already has ideas about gilgul - genetics, about Big bang, etc.)
Okay, here we go
ReplyDelete"This in spite of the fact that our Sages have explicitly taught that the world is no more than 6000 years."
Which sages? Because if it's Chazal, then in 4000-5000 years, really. Also, many of Chazal taught that the Earth is a flat disc and the atmosphere is a dome and the Sun revolves around it. Need I go on? This is not a discussion on halakha. No one is disrespecting Chazal or diminishing their authority by pointing out that they were speaking using the science of their time which was far more limited. Their halakhic rulings remain uncontested. It's just this "If you disagree with Chazal on anything, anything at all, even stuff they disagreed about, you are an INFIDEL!" attitude again.
"Are the result of an agenda to establish the belief that the world is entirely natural."
Strawman. No, that's not the agenda. God created the world. We want to understand how. It's as simple as that. All His works are wondrous and the way He made them should be properly studied, not ignored and replaced by dogma.
"They are trying to make our holy Torah compatible with the views of scientists"
Well yes, because the scientists have figured out lots of stuff so since the Torah is true, we have to figure out how to understand the Torah so it doesn't contradict the evidence in front of us. Clearly it doesn't so we have to understand how that is.
"If a person believes in miracles"
How is this relevant? God is suddenly a magician creating a billion year old world out of nothing complete with fake dinosaur bones? He's a trickster, chalilah?
"Nevertheless their concern is to make this miraculous event as close to nature as possible"
And what is the problem with that? God created nature. By making this event close to nature, we are still acknowledging God's essential role in Creation.
"Man is extremely limited and not capable of understanding the act of Creation."
Very true. Still no idea where the Big Bang came from if not from God Himself. No one disputes that. There is no lack of faith in this. We believe God created the Big Bang and guides all subsequent development through the laws of nature that He established and continues to maintain.
"they prefer to explain that man is the product of millions of years of development."
Clearly he's never read Rav Kook, ztk"l, because if he had he'd seen that Rav Kook clearly notes there is no contradiction between believing that God created the world and accepting the slow process of evolution. Is he a greater scholar and more pious Jew than Rav Kook perhaps? Is he calling Rav Kook a heretic, chalilah?
"They do this despite the fact that there is no clear proof for their views"
Anyone with a modicum of scientific training would recognize how ridiculous this statement is. The amount of knowledge that goes into understanding the study of the age of the world and the universe is vast and complex. But again, "it's not Torah so it's nothing"
'They rush to find isolated statements of the Sages"
Again, standard approach - any argument I come up with, any support I find in the literature, doesn't count because he doesn't agree with it.
I could go on but it's all repetitive - there is one way of understanding the Torah - his was. There are plenty of opinions - but only the ones that agree with him are legitimate. If you disagree - you are a heretic. Even if you're someone as great as Rav Kook, ztk"l. For all his genius, his writing is this essay is dismissive and simplistic.
certain people are not even considered in these discussions. To mention Rav Kook in this context is wishful thinking, he is not accepted in that part of the world. But Rambam is ignored. Ralbag is ignored. Ralbag was such a great scientist that some of his instruments are still used today. And how can you have an honest discussion of science and Torah without even referencing Rambam? (Ok, he is cited only where he speaks about the authority of the Sanhedrin in halakhah)
ReplyDeleteAnd what about Saadia gaon?
her eis a great article which takes a different view, including that of the Gra
https://vilnagaon.org/why-the-bible-is-immune-to-scientific-criticism/
Rav Shternbuch was also the strictest during covid, on social distancing and closing minyanim, based on a rational approach to the science and medical advice. As the Brisker Rav would say, he was machmir on pikuach nefesh.
ReplyDeleteTo his dying moment, Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai was fearful that he'd made the wrong decision when Vespasian gave him his three wishes. What if he'd have asked for Yerushalayim? (The Midrash tells us what happened but Gittin skips over it) Imagine - a man as great as RYbZ and he was unsure about his decision. Didn't he have Daas Torah?
ReplyDeleteImagine RYbZ today. We'd be told that his not asking for Yerushalayim was Daas Torah and how dare you question it!
My father, a"h, warned me to stay away from rabbonim who were certain that they not only had answers to the big questions but were also certain that only their answer was right. I wonder if RYbZ might have agreed.
This is a very interesting piece on Malbim, by R David Berger (who wrote about the Rebbe. Moshiach, and orthodox indifference)
ReplyDeletehttps://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9781618117915-007/html
It tells several accounts , including the bitter controversies, his writings, but towards the end his view on Science and Torah is presented - it is very interesting. Whilst he was fighting Reform the way Rav Emden fought Sabbateans, he is open to science, philosophy and even foresees the development of Big Bang in science and Zionism in the next (20th) century.