Sunday, November 17, 2013

Weiss-Dodelson:The $1,000,000 Question why are the gedolim silent about Gital's tactics?

Guest Post: By Kat Shel Beryonim
My question is not who is right but how can the Gedolim agree for her to go to the New York Post and if they don't then how come there is no kol kore about that?

The stakes are now much higher then just Dodelson vs Weiss. It is a question as to whether the Chareidi world will bow to pressure from folks who clearly do not have our best interests in mind. I honestly believe that even if Avraham Meir was wrong it is assur for him to give a get. Doing so would create a tremendous chillul hashem and further erode faith in our gedolim and the beis din system. Now every yid who has a complaint about his neighbor will now go to the press which will eagerly lap up the story of those archaic Orthodox Jews, and they will say if she can do it why can't I. Why is she any better then other people whom were wronged and were told to hush up for the sake of the community, and that it would cause to big of a chilul hashem? Does it perhaps have anything to do with her last name, for those of you who do not know yet DODELSON = KOTLER = BMG. If it does then we as a community have a lot of soul searching to do.

48 comments :

  1. Why is she any better then other people whom were wronged and were told to hush up for the sake of the community, and that it would cause to big of a chilul hashem?

    is this how it works in the chareidi world? you break the rules and get away with it because the guy you cheated is told to shut up and take it (by whom exactly)? perhaps if the perpetrators thought that they wouldn't be able to get away with whatever it is they do, they wouldn't do "it" in the first place. but instead you (chareidi society) protects the guilty by yelling "chillul hashem" and the innocent have to shut up?

    and if you are worried about chillul hashem if he gives the get, think about the chillul hashem if doesn't give the get (simply because of some internal chareidi reason which no one outside of borough park would understand)?

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    1. Asher pihem diber shavNovember 17, 2013 at 4:55 PM

      You seem not to like hareidim. He is not obligated to give a get, therefore, anyone who does anything to harm him, is the one who is doing something wrong! Btw, borough park is beautiful !!! Love it!!!

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  2. Unfortunately, we orthodox Jews are more concerned about bad publicity than we are about bad behavior. Isn't this exactly the fertile ground that allows child abuse to flourish?

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    1. Asher pihem diber shavNovember 17, 2013 at 4:53 PM

      Bad behavior ? He is not obligated to give a get!!!

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  3. good question.

    There's clearly a lack of backbone. How did the blogmaster earlier put it about the "gadol" who was willing to "sacrifice" one good Jew for the sake of not ruining the reputations of those who support the Orthodox establishment??

    Tsedek, tsedek tirdof

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  4. Is this post a joke?
    This has been her point the entire time. Why is he ignoring the gedolim and Beis Din? Every gadol not related to him has been telling him for years to give a get!

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    1. Still the question is valid

      Do the Lakewood establishment care about the reputation of Orthodox Jews? and the answer does not seem as clear as it should have been.

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    2. What?
      You claim that the husband is "ignoring the gedolim and Beth Sin." I know a lot of serious scholars who disagree with this statement. This is a very complicated situation that few people know what really happened. And even those who do not know what happened, should know the basic halacha taught by old fashioned Shulchan Aruch Jews like myself, that Weiss is forbidden to give a GET because of terror and if he gives one under pressure, it is invalid and the child of the second marriage is a mamzer. What do you say about that, What?

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    3. i would say that the husband should remember the brilliant words of ralph waldo emerson: "nothing external to you has any power over you". don't give the get because of some internet campaign. rather, find understanding and inner peace and give the get because it is the right thing to do. give the get for a hundred good reasons, none of them having anything to do with ORA or gital or facebook.

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  5. Very simple. She went to Beis din, he went to court. The Rabonim came out against him to drop the case in court but he didn't want to. A seiruv was written against him. He continued with the backing of his relatives. The court gave its ruling. He doesn't even have the ability to go to Beis din now. If the Rabonim came out against her, it would be considered supporting someone who went to court instead of Beis din.
    Of course the other side sees it different, but I can't see any Rav support his side. If someone could clarify the Halacha for me, that even if you had permission to go to court, you can't go to Beis din if you lose, simply because going to court means that you are accepting their ruling. That is my understanding .

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    1. Wrong, as the father of his young child, Weiss has the duty to raise and be mechanech his child, the fact that his wife left the house makes no difference whatsoever, now lets be honest, to get justice in court or Halachic psak in Beis-Din is nearly impossible when the other side is so powerful, so why blame him.

      I look at the pattern of conduct of each side and this suggests something to me, I also think of what can he gain from not giving a get other than to get the custody that he deserves so that too suggests that he is understandably struggles to handle this tricky situation.

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    2. He got a heter arkoyos since she unilaterally walked out of the marriage and grabbed the child and took him with her without his agreement.

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    3. He went to court with a heter because she was withholding the child from him. The fact that she offered visitation once the court case commenced proves NOTHING about her good intentions. She HAD TO offer visitation in court, otherwise she would have been viewed as obstructionist and would probably have completely lost custody

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    4. He went to court with a heter because she was withholding the child from him. The fact that she offered visitation once the court case commenced proves NOTHING about her good intentions. She HAD TO offer visitation in court, otherwise she would have been viewed as obstructionist and would probably have completely lost custody

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  6. BTW - I posted some comments on earlier posts that you don't seem to be picking up. If you want to close comments, then I suggest that you post a notice as such.

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    1. I have accepted all your comments - don't know what the issue is - will recheck

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    2. found a number of your comments have been published and none are in the spam folder. Any missing ones are because your system didn't send the comments to blogger.

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    3. The latest comments (that I'm seeing) on the post below are from 15-Nov (Friday). I posted a couple this morning. Perhaps others have as well. Hope that helps.

      http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-pragmatic-resolution-to.html

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    4. I counted 5 recent comments from you - don't know what your problem is

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    5. Thanks Dr. You helped me help myself. My problem was that I didn't notice the "load more" link.

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    6. I believe there is a technical issue with the "pragmatic resolution" post. I also was unable to post comments, that is why I had to repost them on a more recent post.

      It could be that it has too many comments.

      As a test, try opening your blog on a web browser as a regular viewer, instead of as the blog owner, and try posting a test comment.

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    7. Try Yitz Waxman's solution - hit the "load more" link

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  7. Think before you LeapNovember 17, 2013 at 3:50 PM

    I too am horrified by the idea of going to the NY Post, Facebook, and now, maybe The NY Times - This is the work of a vindictive woman full of vengeance. This is not the way of the Torah. I do feel bad for Gital's situation but I don't think she did herself any good by using this method. Even if it works, she has stained the name of herself, her family, and her extended family of Klal Yisroel. Who will ever want to deal with her again?

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  8. I can understand weiss feeling snubbed by arkoas but why can't he admit that his marriage is over? This seems to be merely a fight of tension - he brought about these problems when he fought back well before the arkoas.

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    1. He fought back to protect his son from her machinations to destroy her sons attachment and time with his father

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  9. I have 4 reasons. 1) they already know they lost their olam habah. 2) $ 3) gaavah 4) fear

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  10. The Kol Koreh which was signed by several rabbis clealy states that they should publicize this story in the newspapers. Perhaps they meant the Jewish Press and the like and not the NY Post, etc. However, it did not specify which newspapers. For these same rabbis to issue a new Kok Koreh against their first Kol Koreh would be hypocritcal. Also, for a different set of rabbis to issue a Kol Koreh against the likes of the Noveminsker, Feldman, Schechter, Kaminetzky, etc is not likely to happen.

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  11. Gedolim next joke. Rav Elyashiv was the last who fought against these sickening feminists and their MO supporters. if he knew who r herschel schachter really was he would have given him the same treatment as r r belsky

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    1. Really? RHS met with Rav Elyashiv on more than one occasion.

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    2. I also met Rav Eliashev. Anyone could meet him. RHS represents the diametric opposite of Rav Eliashev.

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    3. He didnt just meet him. They spoke in learning for a long time. I doubt you could get an hour with him. They discussed complex topics in kashrus. Besides, RHS doesnt have to hold like Rav elyashiv. We are not all required to accept him as the final authority on all matters.

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    4. Rav Eliashev was willing to speak in learning for an extended time period with anyone. He didn't screen visitors. You think he lived in an ivory tower? He had a tiny little shul where anyone could come to him. Anyone. Andthere were no long lines to see him.

      Speaking to Rav Eliashev in no way means Rav Eliashev condones, agrees with or even knows what that person represents or says.

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    5. In the last five years of his life, you could not speak to him for an extended period of time. You could not even get close to him. He was constantly "protected". Everyone was screened.

      RHS first visited him decades ago when he was not so well known. The last visit was on behalf of the OU and it was clear that they were discussing matters that impacted millions. He knew exactly who he was talking to.

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  12. Why is she any better then other people whom were wronged and were told to hush up for the sake of the community, and that it would cause to big of a chilul hashem?

    Why don't the Gedolim make the wrongdoers stop, make amends and do Tshuvah rather than tell the victims to hush up? The Chillul Hashem is the result of Bnei Torah mistreating people, and Torah leaders tolerating it for the sale of quiet. Look at the Navi--was the Chillul Hashem because Yeshayahu called the Jewish leaders of his day "Kitzinei S'dom" or because they acted like it?

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  13. Give the girl a break, she is desperate. It has been over 4 years, do you want her to let the next 30 years go by?

    If Weiss really cared about Chillul Hashem he would give a Get immediately and he would still be getting a very good deal.

    Weiss’s reasons for not giving the Get keep on changing:

    First, Weiss said that he is refusing to give a Get until the Dodelsons accept the decision of the "arbitrator" – then it turned out the "arbitrator" himself wrote a letter stating that he was never appointed to be an arbitrator or a mediator!

    Then, Weiss’s supporters stated that he was refusing to give a Get because he didn’t like the custody arrangement – but then it turned out that in truth Weiss received almost 50% custody – a very generous custody.

    Finally, the latest reason that Weiss's supporters have for refusing to give a Get goes like this “True, he received a custody arrangement that is the envy of every divorced husband, but maybe after he gives the Get, the Dodelsons will ask the Court to reverse their decision.”

    It almost sounds like Weiss is desperate to find an excuse to not give a Get!

    This possibility would exist in every divorce case – so why is Weiss the only person who ever came up with this?

    Besides, the Court already showed they are independent and balanced by giving him 50% custody. Weiss could trust the Court to also do the right thing in future decisions just like every husband gives a Get and doesn’t use this excuse.

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    1. I suspect that if Weiss will get the custody that he entitled based on Halacha. Which is nearly full custody from the age of 6 he will be happy to accept the financial loss.
      The money appears to be in play to make sure that the custody deal will hold.

      Your assertion that he just refuses to give a get and he is not really looking for anything in particular but for excused instead is odd.

      I would like to remind you that the custody of his only child is not a bonus and in fact he is obliged to fight for it.

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    2. Once the court has given Gital physical custody, she no longer risks being seen by the court as obstructionist, and can then pocket her physical custody win and begin to attack the fathers visitation with impunity. Kinda like how the Palestinians leverage everything that is given to them in negotiation to push for even greater concessions. The only thing she probably is waiting for to begin the assault on the father-son relationship is the giving of the get, The Dodlesons STATED GOAL is to reduce the role the childs father has in his life a well as the time he has with his son. Given that, Rav Weiss is completely justifies to wait on giving the get until there is a consent agreement that will offer some level of legal protection of his time and relationship with his soon. But the consent agreement is not enough. Rav Weiss will also need money to withstand the highly probable forthcoming legal assault on his time with his son which could easily overwhelm he and his family by virtue pf the Doddleson's enormous wealth and willingness to utilize a win at all costs warfare strategy - including destroying the reputation and parnassa of anyone or in their way

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  14. Can I ask the Rav what was the point of posting this despicable post? It is assur for him to give a get when the marriage is effectively over, such tiflus. People who were wronged were (and should've been) hushed up for the "greater good",such nonsense.

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  15. The interesting question to me is why are so many Litvish rabbonim backing Dodelson when they never did this for any other woman in the same situation. I believe, based on good sources is that she is from Schneur Kotler's family and they all have a feud with the Feinstein descendents who they consider unworthy successors who overplay their hand. Put simply, this is rabbinical politics. This is not to say they are necessarily wrong in their portrayal of the facts, just the politics of when they choose to speak is revolting and belies their pious lamentations about how they anguish on behalf of every woman stuck unable to finally and decisively end a marriage which neither party wants to continue which is obviously true in this case.

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    1. You should have stopped after saying that she's from R' Schneur Kotler's family and the Kotler family will naturally take their family member's side. You didn't have to continue with unsupported overgeneral accusations (re their attitude towards the Feinsteins) that have little relation to the case at hand.

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  16. Weiss's position is more like the woman from a poor and not too powerful family who marries a man that tells her--Stay or I will hurt your kids. What do I mean? If the mother's family is tainted then her kids must be tainted. It sounds like the Dodelson's will hurt the reputation of the father and his family and therefore this poor child so that he is never proud of his paternal roots. All his siblings will be better as their father will be --better, smarter, more religious. How sad that things worked out the way they did. Yichus in the Jewish world is stressed. The stress in this child's life will be he comes from a bad father.

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  18. There's halacha, there's secular law, and there is the right thing to do.

    She asked for a get, and the marriage is functionally over. He can give the get and work out the other problems through beit din/NY court, or compound his problems by refusing to give the get.

    Basic human decency suggests he should give her a get. Halacha may cover his decision to create another aguna, but we people sure shouldn't (lo bashamayim hi). Cherem is too good for someone like him, and if we could institue karait, we should.

    If he has issues with how their breakup is handled, first he should make it final.

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    1. He is a hero for fighting to protect his relationship with his kid. Given her family's enormous advantage in wealth and political power, the only thing preventing her nefarious plan to ruin her sons relationship with his father is the get. She cannot attack the court ordered visitation until after the get is given, otherwise she risks losing her perceived but completely unsupported and propagandized "moral high-ground". Therefore, BEFORE the get is given, Rav Weiss MUST FORMALIZE EVERY LEGALLY PROTECTION including a very strong consent agreement by the wife to not try to reduce the father's time with the child. Rav Weiss must also also prepare financially to protect his son from the Doddlesons oncoming onslaught on the vibrant and close father/son relationship.

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    2. Yonah,
      A GET given because of terror is invalid. If you and all of the wise people on this blog and elsewhere would realize that we Jews have a Torah that you didn't study very well, the discussions would be much different. The leading rabbis in the world agree with the above and in Israel every shul and every rabbi is being given two volumes of halacha to prove this and signed by Reb Chaim Kaniefsky and Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner and Reb Nissim Karelitzs etc. Does that mean anything to you? Kotler has to make up lies in the name of the Torah because of family pressures. But what is your excuse?

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  19. has anyone made a point here that hasn't been made 79 times already on this blog?

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  20. The real issue here is not so much who is right, rather it is the fact that a license was given by all the established gedolim to any person who is in a divorce dispute to bring it to the secular media and nobody can say a word. Once the cat is out of the bag there is no putting it back in.

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