Wednesday, November 27, 2013

Weiss-Dodelson: Weiss's view - What is holding up the Get?

Guest Post:by Truth a Weiss supporter
rebuttal
[update rebuttal by Foncused a Dodelson supporter below - November 27, 2013]

There is a phrase called pilpula shel hevel...loosely translated this means sophistry that gets you nowhere. I humbly think we are seeing a lot of this here. We have a situation of a former couple that are arguing over a child's custody. The court order is still unfinished hence the need for further mediation...

Anyone who understands the concept of bra kara d'avuha understands that just like to a mother her child is one with her so it is with a loving father ..thus the mantra just give a get is a fallacy. The father once he gives the get has no recourse to salvage a lifetime relationship with his child...

Believe it or not the issues stopping Gital from getting her get are 
1. She wants to control where Avrohom Meir takes his child on his weekly visitation 
 2. She is battling giving Avrohom Meir from noon on erev shabbos when it is his shabbos so he can go to the country etc with his child 
3. She is haggling over a statement to stop mud slinging once the get is given...
These are the core issues by not agreeing she is branded an aguna. A lot different than a woman anchored isn't it? ...

Thus people of reason such as Rabbi Bender, Rabbi Greenwald and now Rabbi Sholom Kaminetsky were brought in to seal the deal. Why should the Dodelsons rebel against these attempts? 

While these attempts were going on the Dodelson's during all mediation attempts have been slinging arrows at the Weiss's and the Feinsteins...mass mailings where they live...protests at their home...vilifying them in the global press...and what have the Weiss's and Feinsteins done? sheker needs to keep pounding emes is recognizable without saying a word....the Weiss's are out of parnassa...while the achieve 3000 war machine hacks away mercilessly...

There was a kol korei...people forget that the first one was signed by Rav Kotler..that disappeared because it made no sense at all. (Note that Rav Dovid did not say a word because of negios until he finally wrote one sentence as a gilui milsa balma.). The next kol korei was signed by people who never talked to the Weiss Feinstein camp to hear their side of the story..Yes they are gedolim but we are taught ki hashoced yaveir einie chachomim visaleif divrei tzadikim-bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous There are all kinds of bribery all roads lead to Lakewood especially Philly and most shidduchim come from Lakewood and most young men go to Lakewood ...the power brought against Avrohom Meir is scary

Hoping for a speedy resolution for Avrohom Meir and Gital

Hashem yracheim
Truth

update: ===========Rebuttal by Foncused a Dodelson supporter===============

I am not privy to the details of the negotiations, but obviously some people here either are, or are being fed information to make them feel that way. As we all know, any Machlokes has two sides & it all depends on what perspective you look at this from. Therefore, I will use the post recently submitted by "truth" [above] as a basis for how I see this.

Believe it or not the issues stopping Avrohom Meir from giving the get are 
1. He wants to to change the court order so that he doesn't have to remain in New Jersey for his visitation. 
 2.  Avrohom Meir is battling to expand his weekend custody from noon on erev shabbos when it is his shabbos so he can go to the country with his child 
3. He is haggling over a statement as to what exactly she is allowed to say once the get is given & what penalties she should face if she says something to his displeasure.

If he would just be mevater on these 3 simple things, he would have no reason not to give a get, according to "truth".

Something tells me that there's more to this story, because if it is true, there is no reason for Weiss to keep holding this up over minor issues.  
1) he has the child during a school week until 7:30. Playgroups let out 2-2:30. Iyh the child will be in school, and by 3rd grade will be letting out at 5:30. How important is it that he be able to go to Staten Island for the next two years already? 
The child won't even be able to get out of the car! 
5:30- pickup from Cheder
Drive to Staten Island
6:30- say hi to Bubby & Zeidy Weiss- remember to keep your seat belt on because we need to rush back to Lakewood so we can be back at
7:30- drop off by Mommy.
Come on!
2) Weiss needs to be able to go to the country every week of the year, or is he saying that when he wants to go she should let him? 
This is laughable because this sort of minor detail is the reason why the court usually appoints a third party to coordinate the custody issues & special circumstances. Is there one here? What is his opinion on this?
 Two things are clear about this demand. If the relationship hadn't been made toxic by his withholding a get, this wouldn't have to be bargained, & he's not being honest about this demand. He probably wants every other Friday to begin at 12, & that's why he's not giving a get???
3) suffice it to say that the "mudslinging" hadn't started before he was withholding a get for 2+ years. It's disingenuous to say that that is his justification. Obviously this is a ploy to make him look more reasonable.

Bottom line: 
Dodelson has a clear endgame- a get. 
Weiss has a clear strategy- say that Dodelson is to blame for the Get not being given because she won't cave to these simple demands (which are neither simple, or the only demands.)
=================
I'm looking forward to all the comments you all will be posting bashing ORA, the NY Post, and Gital's frumkeit. Just rest assured that the people who read it see it as your inability to answer the content of my words. 
Do you want this to be resolved? Act as if you do.

Thank you for posting that- hopefully it will have some positive effect on this parsha.

91 comments :

  1. Quick question for "truth", seeing as he is so clued in to what is going on, he must be a member of the Weiss mushpacha.

    Are you saying that if the current order from the judge, as it stands now, if it were modified to allow him custody from 12 on Friday (only on weeks he needs to go to the country) & allows him to take the child to Staten Island periodically, & agreed not to post anything negative online after the get is given, Weiss would agree?

    LOL.

    What about the $? Or are you not talking about those demands? Chinuch decisions?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What $? The only money being asked for is lawyer's fees. Nothing else.

      Delete
    2. $350 G's is a lot of money from my perspective. Have you seen the invoices to establish that the legal bills add up to $350000? Even if so, is it a foregone conclusion that the ex-wife is obligated to pay for her ex's legal bills? Why?

      Delete
    3. $350G is a lie. It is a figment of Dodelson's imagination. Your only source for that number is the shmutzy New York Post article where she claimed it out of thin blue air.

      See the lawyer's documents that RDE posted yesterday in the other thread here.

      Delete
    4. Having been involved in negotiating agreements between "warring" spouses as they prepare for divorce, I presumed there was another perspective. If you do however accurately portray the husband's position, I find myself disappointed. Firstly, I disagree with the "there is no other way" argument. Secondly, to the husband I say: even if you can sometimes justify using halocha to achieve your goal (ie pikuach nefesh of the children), to do so for the reasons you outline is consoling and mean-spirited. Stop being a crybaby and don't go to the country for shabbos. After this is over she will have no interest in fanning the flame and bashmutzing you.
      Lastly, to both parents: is this really worth it? Ten years, fifteen years down the line, your son will Google, or whatever people will use then, your names and read the articles and this blog and will hate you both for putting yourselves first. It is time to grow up.

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    5. @Dovevos, what time do you start preparing for Shabbos? If sunset is at 5pm, why would it bother you if he picks up his son at 12:00 versus 2-3pm? Would any SANE person expect a frum yid to have to deal with preparing and traveling before Shabbos only 2-3 hours before Shabbos? The courts are run by goyim who don't understand that you can't do melacha on Shabbos. They say, "pick him up at sundown, and drive him home Saturday before sundown." Would you agree to that?
      Do you expect him to pre-submit a request for 'early pick-up' any week he wants to go away? The easy way is to make a winter/summer pickup schedule, Winter, earlier. Summer, a little later (but with plenty of time to travel before Shabbos)
      As far as to stop the online/media abuse, he wants it to stop now, as any person would.

      Delete
  2. you should not write "Weiss' view" in the title of a post unless it is written by Weiss himself.

    This post is pure speculation by a random, anonymous blog commentator. To claim that it has anything to do Weiss' view is misleading.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Cmon on Gital, allow the child to have a father and stop the harsh PR against everything holy in our Torah.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Number one - writing under a pseudonym "Truth" gives you zero credibility. It makes you an anonymous poster just like many of us. To comment anonymously as a third party opinion is one thing. To speak FOR the Weisses anonymously is meaningless.

    Number two - what do you mean the court order is unfinished? The court order that I saw documented from the court is a final decision by the court.

    Number three - No one was brought in to "seal a deal" no one was in actuality brought in. However, the idea of allowing a third party to mediate a prospective new deal was considered but never made official.

    Number four - to claim there is power against Meir Avrohom when it is he who holds the most power with the Get is absurd.

    You should change your moniker as there is no "truth" here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And you have no problem with irreligious Public Relations publicist-for-hire Shira Dicker speaking for the Dodelson's without advertising the fact that she is the hired mouthpiece of the Dodelsons?

      Delete
    2. I wonder what Gital would do w/o the Achieve3000 machine? If the dodelsons have been trying to shut down artscroll until the weisses 'cooperate'; perhaps, we should protest Achieve3000 so that the dodelsons come to the table to talk.

      Boycott Achieve3000

      Delete
    3. Nowhere on Dodelson's Facebook or webpages does it say it is Dodelson's slick P.R. machine at work with the big bucks the Dodelson's are paying to make a major international and secular media push for attention a/k/a Chillul Hashem.

      Nowhere does it say the Dodelson's are paying for it and nowhere does it say that Shira Dicker is its producer.

      Delete
    4. Mr. Dave. Thanks for your contribution.

      Could you please directly address any of the four points that Lament is putting on the table?

      Delete
    5. No I do not. - because she uses her real name and you know her relation. And the fact that she is "irreligious" which clearly you felt compelled to write means nothing. There is an inherent difference between a hired PR with a name and someone who uses a pseudonym and reveals no specific relationship to the Weisses.

      Delete
    6. Dave - the Dodelson's do not have to say any of that ... what they have been doing is providing a clear timeline and DOCUMENTATION that has completely supported everything they have publicly put out. The website set up for Gital has a disclaimer that it was set up by "friends of Gital" DT has tried to bring documentation here as well that he received .. a letter by Rabbi Feinstein, at one point a letter by R Greenwald with an attached note by Rabbi Feinstein and then the recent PROPOSAL of consent to arbitration as well as the latest email from RGreenwald that disputes any claim that he was an actual mediator or arbitrator, accepted. All these things are documentation as opposed to a random, anonymous person who is just opining and making CLAIMS on behalf of a man who has yet to speak up for himself. The claims, may or may not be true. But they have no documentation to prove validity and they are brought forth by a nameless source. It is all meaningless then.

      Delete
  5. Huh? What about the $350K Weiss is demanding? Did he give that up?

    Do the Rabbis in the talmud, which discusses every case under the sun, discuss when a husband uses the get as extortion? Or could they not have fathomed such an outlandish scenario?

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    Replies
    1. There is no demand for $350K. That is a lie perpertrated by Gital in her shmutzy NY Post article. The only demand is for exact lawyer fees as directly billed by the law firm.

      Delete
    2. TP, that's some progress! Does that mean he's backed off his demand that Dodelson "reimburse" him for the "expenses" incurred for his uncle serving as a "consultant"?

      Delete
    3. True Perspective .. do you happen to have the lawyer fees in bill form? If in fact that is the case, can YOU verify what the lawyer fees are? Something tells me you do not. That being said, I fail to see why a) someone who signed a kesuba to support the wife as the wife's accrued money and possessions belong to him, and yet seemed to ignore that and sat and learned while his wife made the money, making that money accrued rightfully hers now wants her to pay with her money for his legal fees and b) why someone who was plaintiff and took his wife to court making her defendant thinks it is appropriate that SHE pay his legal fees. He also asked the court (the court HE took HER to ) at the time for that and the court denied his request.

      Delete
    4. Dovevos: There never was such a demand. Other than in Gital's wild imagination as retold to the shmutzy New York Post Page 6.

      Lament: Weiss has every bill in bill form. The money she made halachicly belongs to him. She agreed prior to marriage to allow him to learn and alleviate his support. In return, she shared in the termendous chelek of Limud Torah that he accrued. The secular court decision is not rendered according the Jewish Law. Jewish Law takes precedence over non-Jewish law.

      Delete
    5. TP - that is not how a kesuba works. If she agreed to support him when he learned, that means he was not supporting her as the kesuba requires .. that also means the money is HERS HALACHICLY. And do not spew this ridiculous notion that secular court decision is not rendered .... what do you think arbitration is? It was not requested to be done in beis din ... it is to be done and upheld by a secular court. So it was WEISS who chose secular court for a custody battle and it is WEISS's family who claims that there was arbitration that was to be binding in court. So you are really not doing the Weisses any justice by making a claim as to the validity of secular court as not being rendered. And if "Jewish law" takes precedence, according to your well thought out argument ... then The GET would be given despite any decisions over custody. You have only exhibited that you are a non supporter of following halacha in actuality based on this latest comment of yours. Also - you do know that in Jewish law we have this concept of following the law of the land? I guess you forgot that part.

      Delete
    6. Lament: All money going to a wife belongs to her husband. The ONLY exception is if the wife previously and explicitly told her husband she wants to keep her money so he doesn't have to support her. A wife who wants her husband to learn Torah so she can share in the chelek of Limud Torah is just that. If she didn't explicitly tell her husband she wants to keep her earnings then it is his.

      All matters are required to be adjudicated under Jewish Law by Beis Din not by arkaos. If it is done in arkaos, it must subsequently be done in beis din to replace any arkaos decision.

      Under Jewish Law a husband is NOT obligated to give his wife a Get simply because she wants one. Generally it is his right to decide to remain married. Furthermore, if she is violating his halachic rights, he is halachicly entitled to delay giving the Get until she stops violating his halachic rights and undoes the damage she caused him.

      When the non-Jewish law of the land conflicts with Jewish Law, Jewish Law tales precedence.

      Delete
    7. TP - you are VERY wrong - The money ONLY goes to the husband if he supports her and provides her basic needs such as food and clothing ... if she is the one making the provisions it is HER money. READ the kesuba and learn the halachos.

      No - not all matters are to be done under Bais Din and frankly we all know the extent to which batei dinim are corrupt ... but playing devils advocate - you still have not addressed the fact that it was WEISS who bypassed beis din and went to secular court, not Dodelson.

      Under Jewish law when a marriage is OVER and not reparable as this obviously is, a GET is not allowed to be withheld. Go hak someone elses chainik. I don't know who you think you're fooling with your ridiculous hyperbole.

      Delete
    8. True Perspective is halachicly correct.

      Delete
    9. Lament,
      Where is your source in the poskim that when a marriage is over a GET is not allowed to be withheld?

      Delete
  6. Daniel Eidensohn - I'm curious why Mr. Truth has such insights into this sensitive case, yet can't even be transparent about his name. Why do you publish these anonymous letters?

    ReplyDelete
  7. For the record, I heard Ronnie Greenwald did hear the case of the money as well. I assume that is what you feel should be done. Obviously you don't want the money to be under the table but I don't believe any of us have an issue if its on the table. My understanding is that Ronnie awarded $250,000 to the Weisses based on this case but that there is a clause that if they can prove defamation of character they can get up to $2M. I can't be sure of the amounts but I did hear that this was dealt with by RG from both sides. I don't know who truth is but I can tell you he isnt too off on his story. I got this from a third side. Obviously he is a weiss sympathizer. While I say give the get, if what we're missing is so trivial then settle this stupidity and get on with your lives. If we are so close that 3 stupid points separate them, they deserve each other for eternity. BTW, there is no excuse for Shira Dicker and she is a sorry excuse for a Jew.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't think he is a Weiss sympathizer just stating the facts. Weiss could easily go to court and win a defamation of character suit and Dodelson would have to pay WAY more than 350,000$$ in damages.

      Delete
    2. LOL.


      really. out loud.

      Brilliant legal minds at work here.

      Delete
  8. Here is the other problem I have with all your claims "Truth"
    1. AM was given what is termed "LEGAL" joint custody by the court. This allows him to make legal decisions and executive decisions along with Dodelson as to where he can take his son (it also gives him the right to state what school he prefers and he is entitled to all legal documentation including health and medical records etc...) There are those who would be given joint custody without the "Legal" aspect and those people would have no rights to decision making. AM is not one of those and does have rights to decision making. Dodelson would have to go back to the court to battle that and yet she has not.


    2. The court order stipulates that AM gets his son every other weekend beginning 3 hours before sunset Friday. That would be enough time to get to the country. Your claim that she, is battling this is ridiculous when AM sympathizers also claim that it is WEISS who agreed to arbitration. The court which made the order already allowed for his time, enough to get to the country. AGAIN - she would need to battle in court to get that changed and yet you claim she is making that battle with someone who wants arbitration.
    3. - I couldn't tell you as you are nameless and have no documentation to support this claim either.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Three hours before shkiah is enough time to get to the country? Uhhhhhh, no it's not. And why fight over such stupidities. Give the guy a few more hours if he wants that. And poor Gital is being chained?

      Delete
    2. On a erev Shabbos during the summer, three hours from Lakewood you would end up in Newark or perhaps Staten Island......far from the country. And why cant the little yingle leave at noon on erev Shabbos?

      Delete
    3. Right Michelob ... not from Florida .... but from NJ, it most certainly is.
      And frankly, as for your last part ... yes Gital is chained. As I said, the court made the visitation schedule and it can be fought in court, so based on "Truth"'s claim "what is holding up the Get" followed by what Gital is battling makes no sense. Gital has no reason to battle something the court already stipulated. It is apparent that change to timing is what Weiss is battling and in order to do that, it seems he has to beseech the court .. the one he chose to go to in the first place if arbitration is not an option.

      Delete
    4. He would not be going from Lakewood, he would already have to be in Staten Island to pick up his child. If they were amicable, they could also agree that she would meet him somewhere slightly closer to drop the child at the 3 hour mark .... but everyone here just seems to think that his request becomes a necessity and unfortunately in the real world, it does not. There are many nuances in divorce that can affect visitation and none of them allow for a Get to be withheld. For instance ... his whole argument is to make a change that only affects a few summer months. Did he make this request ONLY for the summer months? No one here has such details of the nuances to visitation requests ... only that we assume he wants changes. But the bottom line is ... it is HE who battles and wants changes, not Gital as the very anonymous, lacking author of this post would like us to believe with his specific choice of wording on the matter.

      Delete
  9. Hi Mr. Truth.

    Since you have such intimate knowledge of the negotiations, perhaps you care to enlighten us as to the answer to the following two questions.

    1) What are the Dodelson's demanding?
    2)What have the Dodelsons conceded already.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Perhaps you can also remind us about the times that the Weiss mishpacha insisted that the reason he wasn't giving a Get was Because the reshanta Gital will not let him see his son.
    Now they say he isn't giving the get because for less than 5% of the weeks he will have the child, she won't allow him to take him to the mountains.


    WAAAAAAAHHH!!! Avwom Meiw Wants To Go To The Countwee & Mean Gital doesn't let him!!!!!!1

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Too bad, Dovy Wovy. Avwom Meiw has the wight to withhold a get according to halacha, and I hope he does so until this #@^%$$# stops acting like the &^%$* that she so clearly is. Sorry for the nivul peh - couldn't help myself.

      Delete
    2. That is called unnecessary control of AM life and no allowing true custody.

      WAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! for her!!

      Delete
  11. The Rest is BaloneyNovember 26, 2013 at 9:34 PM

    A Jewish man attempts to rape a Jewish woman. When she beings shrieking ni protest, he snarls "Shut up! If anyone sees a Jewish man attempting to commit rape, it will cause a tremendous Chilul haShem!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. besutiful analagy
      Weiss family keep fighting for what is right.

      Delete
  12. on the weeks he wants to go to the country why not work out that if there is a need to pick up the child earlier on friday then he will bring back the child earlier on sunday

    ReplyDelete
  13. Firstly, the tone of this post indicates that "Truth" believes that it is legitimate to withhold a get as leverage. This is against halacha, evil and very dangerous. I (and I am sure) many others would be very interested to see an explicit source (not some dubious technical argument or inference) to substantiate such a position. It would be even more newsworthy if such a source would come from within mainstream halacha and would be more than a daas yachid.

    Secondly, the implication that GD is the one that is withholding the get from herself by not giving in to AWM's demands is perverted and warped for obvious reasons.

    Thirdly, if there is any halachik, legal or even moral merit to AWM''s claims, then he should bring them to court or beis din and deal with them there. The mere fact that he has resorted to the heinous and underhanded approach of withholding a get is cogent proof that he knows full well that his claims would stand no chance in any beis din or court.

    Fourthly, the nature of this post and other posts on this blog is such that they can only be AWM's attempt to counter the clear message emanating from within the Dodelson's camp. The question is then, why does AWM's camp not publish in their own name and set up their own website, BlogSpot or Facebook page to tell their version? Why do they hide behind various pseudonyms and blogspots like this one? Surely if there were merit to their case they could clearly articulate this rather than obfuscating the issue at all times?

    Fifthly, does AWM not understand that being part of your child's life is a privilege to be earned and not something that a court, beis din or arbitrator can decide. If he would behave like a mentsch and adopt an approach of partnering GD in raising the child, even though they are divorced and never getting together again and continuously acted in good faith and demonstrated consideration and decency on an ongoing basis, that it would be reciprocated. That GD would also get tired of fighting and an equilibrium can be achieved wherein they act like human beings and not like animals. A relationship wherein if he needs more time this week, he picks up a phone and asks and she says yes and vice versa. Basically a normal functional relationship, which is in the best interests of the child! It does not need to be conflict, conflict, conflict!
    ABS
    I give them my brocha that the get should be given without delay and that they can attain a "shalom bayis" in divorce that they never could together and that they should both remarry and each build a bayis neeman býisroel.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You said: "Firstly, the tone of this post indicates that "Truth" believes that it is legitimate to withhold a get as leverage. This is against halacha, evil and very dangerous."

      Sorry that you don't like the halacha, but a man is NOT FORCED TO GIVE A GET IN THE CASE OF MAUS ALAI. See http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/04/rav-eliashivmaos-alei-get-not-required.html. If the man were witholding the get out of pure spite, you would be correct. But as long as he has rights under dinei Torah he can withhold the get, and should withhold the get. You call that leverage? Perhaps. But that is the halacha. Let's see you back up your statement that this is against halacha. Go back to your ORA rally.

      Delete
    2. The Weiss family does not stoop to the level of wrestling in the gutter like the Dodelsons. That's why they don't refute the ridiculous nonsense spewed forth by Gital et al. Funny, the Dodelsons seem very comfortable there.

      You think he should partner with Gital to parent? Gital stated very clearly that she wants to get married quickly so that her kid can have a stepfather. She wants to EXCLUDE him from the process, and that's what she has tried to do from the moment she took his child away.

      Your comment is so flawed in so many ways that it's just too easy.

      Delete
    3. MICELOB:

      1. Your pseudo-halachik attempt to rationalise AWM's behaviour does not hold water, because if it did AWM could just go to Beis Din and they would uphold his "rights". The fact that he has assiduously avoided going to Beis Din proves my point!

      2. Your statement "Gital stated very clearly that she wants to get married quickly so that her kid can have a stepfather" shows what the real reason for this get refusal is. Essentially AWM is saying IF I CAN'T HAVE YOU I WILL SEE TO IT THAT NOBODY CAN! This of course is painted as being for the child's benefit!

      3. Gital is never coming back to AWM. It's time to face that reality. If AWM really cared for the child, he would be only to happy for Gital to move on and establish a stable home. Likewise he should be trying to do the same thing for himself. The optimal outcome for the child is for mommy and daddy to both be remarried (to other people) and to have an amicable relationship with each other for his benefit. Imagine that.

      4. To withhold a get is worse than "wrestling in the gutters" as you put it. That a supposed Ben Torah can resort to such "halachik" thuggery is the real tragedy here. If this is what our society of enlightened Yirei Shomayim can produce then we are in trouble. The flip-side of course is the huge support for Gital from decent people who still know right from wrong and are prepared to stand up for what is right; the support from the rabbonim who signed the kol koreh and many others who were not approached but would have, reassures me that we have not become corrupted... but you most certainly have!
      ABS

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    4. ABS you are preaching to the choir.

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    5. DT, are you saying you agree with ABS?

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    6. No I don't I was just pointing out he was repeating arguments that are ignored by those who don't agree with them because they have heard them stated 20 times.

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    7. Sorry that you don't like the halacha, but a man is NOT FORCED TO GIVE A GET IN THE CASE OF MAUS ALAI. See http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/04/rav-eliashivmaos-alei-get-not-required.html.

      I'm sorry but that Teshuva of Rav Eliashiv's is unreliable, see this post for why:
      http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/10/rav-eliashiv-reliability-of-psakim-said.html

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    8. So, R' Michael, you hold that al pi halacha there is no-fault divorce? A man is required to give aget whether he likes it or not?

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    9. DT, sorry for the confusion. I understood the phrase "preaching to the choir" to mean that one agrees with what was said.

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    10. So, R' Michael, you hold that al pi halacha there is no-fault divorce? A man is required to give aget whether he likes it or not?

      That is how Rav Eliashiv actually ruled numerous times. A man is חייב a get. However, he cannot be forced or even pressured beyond being told that halakha requires him to give his wife a Get, unless there is compelling and clear reason for her leaving him.

      Delete
    11. the Inalienable Rights of a ParentNovember 29, 2013 at 2:55 AM

      Being a part of your childs life is a priveledge to be earned?!!? Are you completely out of your mind?

      Being a parent and acting in the role of a parent is an inalienable right that can only be taken in the truely gravest of circumstances. YOUR COMMENT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE SICKEST & MOST PERVERSE PERSPECTIVES ON PARENTIG EVER!

      Delete
    12. Anonymous,
      You write, "Firstly, the tone of this post indicates that "Truth" believes that it is legitimate to withhold a get as leverage. This is against halacha, evil and very dangerous. I (and I am sure) many others would be very interested to see an explicit source (not some dubious technical argument or inference) to substantiate such a position. It would be even more newsworthy if such a source would come from within mainstream halacha and would be more than a daas yachid."
      If you read my posts and guest pieces you would see exactly where it says these things, in EV 77 paragraph 2 and 3 and all of the poskim who comment on the Shulchan Aruch support the idea that a woman who says MOUS OLEI cannot have people pressure the husband to give a GET. It is clear from the Rashbo, Radvaz, Beth Yosef and Chazon Ish and Rav Elyashev zt"l that the choice is the husband's to make without any coercion. Some say there is no mitsvah at all to give a GET and this is especially true if there is a child. This idea that a woman can just get up and flee with the baby and get people to destroy the husband for not divorcing has no source in the Shulchan Aruch, as the Vilna Gaon writes in EH 77 #5 that there is not a single source that permits it, meaning, from the time of the Shulchan Aruch, because in earlier generations the Rambam and Geonim did permit it. But today a coerced GET produces mamzerim.

      Delete
  14. eventually as the child grows up there will be reason to be flexible with times. the childs yeshiva schedule changes, child might want to go to a friend, might have a pirchei program, family simcha, cv not feel well. there will eventually have to be a third party (if parents can not work together) to work out what to do in these situation.

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    1. the Inalienable Rights of a ParentNovember 29, 2013 at 3:02 AM

      Vindictive ex- wives dont generally get more reasoable and accomodating over time They actually get worse. I KNOW FROM First jand experiene. Btw, I gave my get "on demand" -((within 2 days after separation! ) - and without any legal protection - for which I paid a terrible price for the next 15 years!

      Delete
  15. eventually as the child grows up there will be reason to be flexible with times. the childs yeshiva schedule changes, child might want to go to a friend, might have a pirchei program, family simcha, cv not feel well. there will eventually have to be a third party (if parents can not work together) to work out what to do in these situation.

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  16. I don't know the people here but some people obviously do. Is devevos and lament known as foncused and james on the other pages.

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  17. finally someone speaking the truth I have heard from two roshay yeshiva who are very involved that the dodelsons are impossible.and manipulative. NO one mentions her broken engagment (called off by her mother 1 week before the chasunah to a fine bachur from darchai torah.
    no one cares that the weiss family will be left with a debt of over$ 400,000 impossible for bnai torah to ever recoup
    No one mentions that the Kotlers are her first cousins who have publicly said we fight to win vs the feinsteins who are terrified of truly responding because of making a bigger chillul hashem than the liberal feminist dicker WHY IS NO ONE SCARED OF STARTING UP WITH THE CHILDREN OF HAGON RAV MOSHE ZTL

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    1. I'm 100% in agreement with you. If a girl has a broken engagement, she's never entitled to a get.

      Delete
    2. Lakewood and everyone in its claws is obviously evil. Ok now that is outed can we get a get and move on. Really BMG should pay all of his family's legal fees.

      Don't you agree?

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    3. sifsosav aynan dovevosNovember 27, 2013 at 6:25 PM

      Dovevos,

      Thanks for proving anonymous's point

      Delete
    4. Hey, guy who isn't at all obsessed with me that he is using a username based on mine,

      I'm sorry if I crystallized your argument tht she had a broken engagement, as if it's relevant.

      Answer this:

      Did AMW & YAW know that she had a broken engagement when he married her? Or were they then, as they are now, obsessed with getting at some of the D Mishpachas massive wealth

      Delete
    5. Avid reader,

      I don't think dovevos is any of those people. A few years ago, on a different blog, there was a commenter on this issue who used the same kind of sarcasm, specifically the kindergarten variety where he puts in w's instead of r's. At the time, it simply ended the conversations. Unfortunately, the blog owner in that instance took down the pages with those comments, so I can't link to it.

      Daas Torah, as a psychologist, can you tell us what sarcasm in an argument indicates?

      The point is, while the style of the other three commenters you mentioned do sound very similar to each other as well as to that of az and the superintendent, I don't think dovevos is one of them.

      Dovevos is employing not only sarcasm, but also another very interesting method. Dovevos occasionally picks only one point at a time, usually a side point or wording, and creates a caricature of said point by slightly misrepresenting the gist meant by the original author. For example, if someone says that Gital had a broken engagement to point out that she has been shown in the past to have trouble with relationships, of course that commenter knows that this is only a side point to be taken as part of a general picture. It may mean something, it may mean nothing. But it deserves to be mentioned when trying to figure out a person who claims to be someone who honors commitment, just she got stuck with the wrong person. Here, Dovevos twists the point as if the original intent was that that alone means Gital does not deserve a get. This was clearly not what the commenter who brought it up meant to say, and it is also clear that Dovevos knows that.

      My point is, Dovevos has a different style than any other commenter here. I have seen it only once before. And I think I know who it is. If I am right, this is the one person on either side of this argument who can truly be called an agitator. Everyone else involved, I believe from all I have read, really believes they are doing the right thing and is either trying to protect their values or the ones they love or themselves. This one person, in my opinion, wants certain others to be destroyed more than he wants a resolution. I hope he is alone in this. I know there are others who want people destroyed just from reading what is said on the free gital site, but I believe for most of them it starts with a belief they have that is being violated. Here, I think we are dealing with a person who actually has it the other way around.

      The sad thing is, I don't know if this person even realizes that about himself.

      I hope that you, RDE, are right about a close resolution. I also pray that everyone can come to want only that.

      Delete
    6. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 27, 2013 at 9:45 PM

      I don't know how I got lumped into all this...

      Delete
  18. Mr. Foncused, I have the following questions: 1) She took Aryeh to Israel. He can't even take him out of NJ? THe court ruled that it is "THEIR" son, not only her's. Why can't he take his son on a trip too? 2) Do you care about Shabbos? She should be happy that Aryeh's father wants Aryeh to enjoy Shabbos and do what she can to help her son. He will be stuck too if "her EX" is stuck somewhere for Shabbos. No one should ever travel late on Friday. The Monsey-Lakewood busses incident several years ago should have taught us that. 3) She should never have started the mudslinging in the first place. He lost his job. His father and uncle were pushed out of theirs' as well. He wants a guarantee that he will get his life back. Why is that too much to ask?

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    1. I must have missed the time Weiss said that she took the child to Israel. Was that an alleged abduction as well? Why didn't he drag her back to court if his visitation was infringed upon?

      I'm sorry, but you sound like you are making things up as you go along.

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    2. & you say she shouldn't have started the mudslinging in the first place? Remember, this entire affair was between the two of them & the two of them alone until he went to court. He was the first one to drag this out into the public domain.

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    3. Dovevos - you are a joke - stop defending the fake agunas. He went to court because his wife took their child out of their home. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Just like Epstein she treated her husband as sub human and then cries for sympathy. If she wouldn't act in the most selfish way but instead like a mother who has the best intetest of her child in mind she would have had a Get years ago.

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    4. Dovevos - Please stop saying I am making things up if you don't know anything about the case. She took their son to Israel for a Yom Tov last year. It was R' AMW's turn to get the shabbos before Yom Tov, and he offered to switch to allow them more time to travel. All that he asked was to be allowed more time to travel on fridays. She refused.
      ---This is the truth: SHE DOES NOT WANT A GET. The offers that she has been given, including the 3 above issues are trival at best to fight over.
      6 hours MAXIMUM a year on Fridays? Let your son enjoy Shabbos.
      Taking trips on visitation? He's coming back on time anyways. Why care?
      Mudslinging is wrong, no matter what.
      (As far as the 'court' issue, he got a hetter to go to court on the basis that if she left and took away his son. If he were to go to Bais Din and follow through, until she finally shows up, he could lose COMPLETE custody from the court when she files for divorce; he'd be considered a 'dead-beat dad'. The courts don't care that you went to Bais Din. Batei Din know that such things happen and allow going to court immediately to protect your right as a father. Oh, and BTW - The shulchan Aruch paskens that after the child is 6, the father has full halachik custody of his children since חינוך is his job)
      The confusing issue is why this whole case is not part of אב"ע ע"ז:ב, and she should be punished. Perhaps this is why she REFUSES to go herself to Bais Din to ask for a get and only complained about his going to court.
      The only way she will get the get she wants is for her to act like a mentch and be decent. Until she 'grows up' and stops being so self-centered and realizes that the R AMW would have already given her the get if she just stopped making his life miserable, she is going to be empty-handed..

      Delete
  19. What bothers me is what is totally unfair. why is it in a divorce situation that the women can parade around claiming to be an AGUNA to gain public sympathy even if they are the cause of the problem. Yet the men get no sympathy when they are in the right such as in this case. Hes merely asking for a better visitation agreement and has no intentions to keep her an AGUNA if she would just consent. I believe ORA tells these women to stand strong as they can convince the public that AM is making her an Aguna. This is a travesty of justice!

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  20. Foncused, I think anyone following this blog can say that you obviously have some relation to Gital. And your sticking up for her, that is very noble, but where were you when she needed advice? People say the system is flawed but I don't agree, I think it is the people that are flawed. I very much like R' Dovid Eidensohn's premarital counseling advice as marriage is hard work and setting some ground rules never hurts. I also think that there is always a way around the system. If you truly cared for Gital and wanted her to receive a get, why wouldn't you advise her a few years back to either try to work it out or have a conversation with AMW and work within the system? You say that AMW is withholding the get, but NO ONE is ever REQUIRED to give a get until beis din rules that he has to give one. So why was he never given a hazmanah to beis din for a get? So, I have seen you or maybe James say that he was called to beis din, hence the siruv, but that is false. He was called to beis din to leave court re custody. When the siruv actually came out, Gital was the plaintiff, so says the timeline on setgitalfree, so even that is hard to wrap your head around. Aside from the fact that the siruv was re AMW going to court, not about a get and either way it cant possibly be about a get because both sides were never heard by a beis din. So all this propaganda has what basis? A get is a Jewish divorce, one only gets divorced AFTER everything is worked through. Because one spouse leaves the home does not mean she needs a get that day....how long is it? lets see,....how long does it take for them to work things out. I get that you are defending her using whatever tactics you want. Getting the whole world riled up against AMW and the Feinsteins takes a lot of effort. All your time on this blog takes a lot of effort. Wouldn't the effort be better spent getting Gital to work things out with AM? They have a child together! They will always have to work together. You say AM won't give in to small things but Gital won't either. The damage that is done is irreparable. AMW SHOULD protect himself, at any chance Gital might try to run AGAIN. She's made it very clear that she doesn't want him to be in their child's life. You say the mudslinging hadn't started until he'd been withholding a get for 2+ years, how come she never gave a hazmana to beis din, she had so much time? What is considered holding back a get? The only agenda AM has is to protect his rights to his child. You say if he hadn't withheld the get she would've just given in to these little things? Well if she hadn't run away and just had a conversation with AM she would've had a get a long time ago. So I guess that's the problem. Portraying Gital as this poor innocent victim is very wrong. She gets so much sympathy because she's a woman, and she's "chained". She could've unchained herself by going through the system, but she never did. Instead she ran away, withheld the child, countersued for civil divorce, put out a siruv, when she finally agreed to arbitration, she walked out, then when she came back in she wouldn't accept the offer, made a huge campaign to ruin AMW life and the lives of anyone related to him, and now she won't give in to a few details? Interesting how people say the system is wrong. Foncused, if you came home one day to your wife and child gone, would you just say, here's your get, or would you try to protect yourself?

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    1. One of the problems in these discussions is that in some respects the timeline is important and is being ignored.

      Yes, halacha forbids a forced get. But that wasn't the initial problem. There was a time before any coercion started during which it was clear that Gital Dodelson wanted out of the marriage. Yes, it was absolutely her husband's prerogative to NOT give a get. But that doesn't mean it was the right decision to do so. In hindsight, the current mess results from that decision.

      On the one hand, a therapist had said the marriage could be salvaged.
      On the other, the old light bulb joke comes to mind: "How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to really want to change."

      During a critical period it sounds (based on the public statements, Daas Torah's research, and my thirty plus years in health care hearing people's stories and watching things unfold) as though neither party to this marriage was willing to change enough to make it work. Anyway it only takes one party not willing to change to wreck a marriage in this sort of situation. (From what I know) I can make a humanly plausible argument placing the majority of the blame on either party.

      If it's true that he insisted on picking his new bride's Ob/Gyn, if his research (he did do the research before he put his foot down, didn't he?) had led him to conclude that skill wise, his wife could do better than the doctor she wanted, he made a tactical error but it should have been fixable. If he was just asserting his halachic prerogative... well, my mother, one of the smartest women I know and a psychiatric social worker with more than three decades of professional experience thinks that was a real warning sign of possible deadly danger.

      At that point, the only way to PERHAPS repair the situation would have been an abject, heartfelt apology something along the lines of "Gital, I may know the halacha but I've never had to deal with an actual woman in this area. I didn't understand until I saw how upset you were. I want you to have the best doctor around whom you feel good about. That's what's really important to me. I'm so sorry." That, said promptly and sincerely MIGHT have fixed, even strengthened the marriage. The absence of such evidence of his understanding her viewpoint in an area so sensitive to a woman... NOT a good sign. (Again, IF this really happened. I personally suspect that it did, though I obviously don't know for sure.)

      And if you really did shove your mother-in-law out of the way? Sorry, AMW, if you're marrying for support for your learning and your mother-in-law is involved in your parnassah, suck it up and deal with it. A working stiff may have to deal with a difficult boss. Just goes to show that a Talmid chacham can be smart in one way but in others... maybe not so much. Assault and battery on your mother-in-law? Negiah aside, that's criminal. The mother in law who pays your salary? NOT a good sign.

      Either of those two anecdotes if true would pretty much make AMW a guy with control issues and a temper. Both of them (if true,) well, no wonder Gital went home to her mother.

      In any case, the time came when the marriage was over and a divorce was going to ensue. The one who had the power take the initiative to halachically end it refused for reasons which seemed good to him at the time (and which many commenters find acceptable.)

      In hindsight, though, a get at that point would have prevented the whole mess we've been so preoccupied with. But at that point, the one who was halachically powerless to change the situation resorted to other means, and here we are.



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    2. Yoel: You are wrong.

      The husband is not wrong for not wanting to give a Get. Just because the wife wants a Get does not mean it is the correct thing for the husband go give one.

      And all the bubbe maaisas you read in the shmutzy New York Post's article by Gital are complete sheker. The ob/gyn, etc.

      Delete
    3. I didn't say she should receive a get on demand or that he was "wrong" for not wanting to give the get. I'm saying it was within his discretion to do so... or not, and that at some point in the era Before Coercion he made the decision not to. Once the coercion started, doing so became problematic, but before that he had a choice between two actions BOTH of which were within the daled amot and in that sense NEITHER choice was "wrong."

      However, in the sense of the context of the actual woman he actually married and had a child with, it appears that his choice was unwise.

      Perhaps he is a tzadik who only wanted to save his marriage; perhaps this woman with terrific yichus was, unbeknownst to anyone in the BC era, a terrible person who wanted out of the marriage for no good reason.

      What would you have him do to force her to save the marriage? What suasion or coercion could HE employ against a woman who at some point came to dislike the though of being married to him?

      Do you have reliable testimony to "sheker?" I haven't exhaustively read all the comments on this site, but none I have seen have seemed to definitively disprove the Ob/Gyn assertion. And as I wrote, "if...then X" which to me implies "if not...then not X."

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    4. Yoel: A husband has no reason to give a Get if he does not want to give a Get. If he wishes to remain married he then should not give a Get. He should choose to not give a Get if he does not want to get divorced. And that is a wise choice to make.

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    5. Columbus, I'm not saying he has to if he doesn't want to. I just don't see the wisdom. Although come to think of it, in his case, he might have found it hard to find a second set of in laws to support his learning. So you're right. That would be a reason not to divorce a woman who hated him. I suppose you could call it wise.

      Delete
  21. "What is holding up the Get?"

    A major obstacle to Gital receiving a GET is Gital's decision to involve the perverse YU feminist organization known as ORA ( the Organization for the Resolution of Agunot ), led by R. Hershel Schachter. By employing ORA thugs to wage war on her husband and his family, Gital is M'AGEN herself, while she claims to be a victim of her husband.

    I recommend that any persons interested in hearing an honest assessment of ORA's perverse activities should view these excellent videos by R. Yehuda Levin:

    ORA YU thug tactics & Schachter - (around 11:40 in video):
    http://www.thefearkashes.com/2012/01/why-tamar-friedman-nee-epstien-hasnt.html

    ORA establishing pattern of women absconding with child & demanding GET - (first 7:30 of video):
    http://www.thefearkashes.com/2012/01/tamar-friedman-no-get-part-2-david.html

    The videos focus on the Epstein case, but there are many parallels with the Dodelson case - wife absconds with the child, involvement of R. Kaminetsky, husband received HETER to go to ARCHAOS to recover his child, husband's family members harassed etc.

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  22. Focused: you correctly note that the father wouldn't have time to let the grandparents see the boy, so...your conclusion is to forget the grandparents?!? Either there should be an overnight visit,, or the mother shouldn't have moved so far away making the father's visitation so difficult. Maybe that's why we have the present situation...

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    1. First of all, pick a name, anions aren't allowed here.

      You do know that she didn't move far away, right? They lived together in Lakewood- where she lives now.
      And who said forget the grandparents? He spends the entire Shabbos at his grandparents every other week. I never spent that much time with my grandparents.

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    2. "pick a name, anions aren't allowed here."

      Are cations OK?

      Delete
  23. Dovevos a relation of Dodelson did they first not live in SI? Did he move to lakewood just for her?

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    1. I have no idea where they lived at first, as I am not a relation to either party, Mr. Weiss. But now it's good to have you concede that she didn't move away.

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    2. For the record, they lived in Staten Island after they got married. Then in Israel for a while. They then moved to Lakewood to be closer to her parents (seems she has some detachment issues.....). R AMW did not want to live in Lakewood, but did so for the benefit of his wife. She obviously did not appreciate it.
      Also, he goes to his parents for Shabbos. What do you want him to do? Take his 3-year old to every davening? Let his son spend the whole Shabbos with only his father and no other family or friends? Oh, and did you forget that SHE LIVES COMPLETELY AT HER PAREN'T'S HOUSE!!! She doesn't even have a place of her own at all!
      Just saying....

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  24. dovevos you can carry on with defending the indefensible and your stupidity. anyone who "marries" this woman is in for the time of his life. i was simply asking something i don't know the answer to.

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  25. first of all a frailichen and lichtige chanuka to everyone. i would first like to establish that i din't ask to be a guest post...i assume the admin of the sight felt that divrei emes nikarim words of truth are recognizable and dvarim hayotzim min haleiv nichnosin lleiv- things that emanante for the heart enter the hearts of others...but now that my post was put up fopr all to see i feel a little more responsibility to respond to some of the comments...1. blatant, lament , and foncused challenge why i don't identify myself. that is a fair question after all remaining anonymous make you free from accountability hiding behind a pseudonym does not sound like the behavior of truth!? the answer is sadly that im terrified to identify myself...im truly scared of the dodelsons...they will go after my bussiness...they will unleash shira dicker self proclaimed conservative jew and bungalow babe against my family as they did against yeshiva of si mtjand rebbitzen feinstein to name but a few...they might even ambush me like they did to avrohom meir...so that's why i have to cower under a screen name. 2. Foncused (btw is that coincidental that your pseudonym is an anagram for confused?) downplayed the issues stalling the negotiations he argues how much time does am have to go to his grandparents on his visitation....that is not the point gital should not control his visitation in the same way that he shouldn't tell gital not to go to florida with his son for a few days...if he decides that he wants to go she should not be controlling his time that is a big issue...the erev shabbos and yom tov issue is truly incredible...you say you can go to the counry in 3 hours ...it's not even advisable to go from lakewood to si or brooklyn in three hours and before that gital only gave him less they had to beg the judge for three hours...it's simple common sense not to risk chilul shabbos and it is clearly a sign that there is absolutely no reasonable negotians with the doodelsons....how many times did the weiss side want to meet with them face to face ..it just doesnt happen 3.if there was a get there wouldn't be mudslinging ..this is only to make the weiss' look good...foncused if someone took your jobs away and plastered your pictures negatively all over the world how would you react? but even now do you see the feinsteins and weiss' mudslinging in the press? they want to get on woith thier lives protect thier families and stop the chilul Hashem does that not sound reasonable?
    then foncused posted a challenge ..let the weiss' post a signed document...you call that fair...gital is saying that she desperately wants a get let her post a signed document...if the weiss' do what you suggest they can then keep on haggling and haggling..the weiss'already agreed to ronnie greenwald and then the dodelosn said there was no agreed arbitration...the weiss' already agreed to rabbi bender and the family told him to get lost...anyone can verify that...as a matter of fact he is still feeling the pressure from lakewood because he got involved..(i willl continue so i don't run out of character space)
    Truth

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  26. (continuation from Truth) As we speak and i'm not sure if there is really any purpose to this., since our talking might make little difference...even so i feel compelled as a dear friend of the Weiss/feinsteins to come to thier defense... )while we speak) rav sholom kaminetsky is valiantly trying to seal a deal...a big quetion that i have is why rav shmuel kaminetsky doesnt at least release a letter to hault the hostilities when he sees that his choshuve son is negotiating with the weiss' in complete faith...i believe if someone wants to do something constructive to try to figure out why rav shmuel didn't immediately write a letter to stop any further chilul Hashem in the secular press or why rav malkiel didnt put out a cease and desist order against his family attacking rav moshe's yeshivos...we would need to uncover if achieve 3000 the dodoelsons company is supporting lakewood and philadelphia yeshivos...if they are this would be the shochad that would answer these damning questions
    i beleive lament raised the challenge that there are also chinuch issues between them...i was unaware of this but investigated and found out he is well informed am wants a chinuch person to be an arbiter and gital wants a secular coordinator )
    then there's the ugly matter of money....the world cry is extortion!!! tell me be honest is causing am his father and his uncle to lose thier livelihoods not extortion...when a wealthy family shleps a midddle income family throught the courts over custody instead of negotiating with someone like rav bender or rav belsky and grinds them into the ground putting them in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt throwingt he full might of achieve 3000 against them and them sits back and cries extortion while the weiss' can't even put food on thier table doesn't that get you thinking....the ora's of the world scream extortion..stop to think a lakewood boy marries a girl from a welthy family who supports him ..after 5 years and 4 children the wife decides she could do better and walks out with her 4 children she hires a shark of a lawyer and the husband has 2 choices go into lifetime debt to try to get a good custody deal or lose your relationship wiyth your children...for thata's what happens if you dont fight for it....the husband who gets very little time get's alienated by the vengeful wife..but you might say gital is not like that she will inculcate a love for avrohom meir in her son...i think we've all read enough to know that is not the case...so the husband becomes impoverished fighting for his child...is that extortion to try to get back what he was put through ...especially in a case where she walked out ..and the court appointed rav pitter said that he didn't see at the time legitamate reasons to end the marriage....even so to end the matter the weiss' agreed to a ridiculously small amount which will cause them to remain in debt for years just to end the mtter...that doesn't sound unreasoble or ma'gain like behavior to me?!
    There has been a very great miscarriage of justice here wreaked against the weiss/feinstein families...we plead to Rav Moshe zt"l that he be a meilitz yosher that both avrohom meir and gital be able to get on with thier lives and each find happiness in building new homes with mutual respect for raising thier son in the heritage of thier two great families
    Hashem yracheim
    Truth

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    1. For the future... please use line breaks and a spell checker to make your contributions more readable.

      Delete
    2. Also, truth should try sticking to some sort of reality.

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  27. So, ninety comments later and no GET. That deserves another ninety comments.

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