Sunday, November 24, 2013

Rabbi Zweibel: Aguna supporters are creating halachic problems



Rabbi Dovid Zweibel  said at the Aguda convention:

"There are so many issues, the Agunah issue, which has been in the news for all kinds of terrible reasons... 'We have to do something about it!' Unfortunately we discover that sometimes 'doing something about it' without the proper hadracha of Gedolei yisroel, can be so terribly counterproductive and can create shaalos about the validity of Gittin." See minute 19:52



Motzoei Shabbos Address from R' Chaim Dovid Zwiebel from Agudath Israel on Vimeo.

47 comments :

  1. The so-called Agudah needs to "do something" about the fake AGUNAH problem, yet the gross constitutional and human rights violations being suffered by Orthodox Jewish men in NY State family courts is of no concern to the Agudah.

    I have been told by rabbanim familar with the situation that the Agudah's halachic advisers are known feminist sympathizers such as Shmuel Kaminetsky and David Cohen of Flatbush. Therefore the Agudah will not lift a finger to oppose the gross constitutional and human rights violations occurring on a regular basis against Jewish men in NY State family courts.

    However in the present case it appears that even the Agudah is not comfortable riding the ORA/Dodelson feminist tiger as it threatens to devour the Yeshiva world.

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    1. Please explain what constitutional and human rights have been violated.

      Also, calling someone a "feminist" or a "feminist sympathizer" is a merely an ad hominem attack (and a weak one, at that), which does absolutely nothing to dispute the validity of their position.

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    3. Richie

      It is the right to raise their children.

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    4. @Eize Hu Chochom:

      I'm not sure what you mean by "the right to raise their children". Whose right, and by which constitution or human rights law is this right guaranteed?

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    5. richard

      correct. the way word feminist is being used, it has all the moral and intellectual weight as calling someone a rosicrucianism freemason who has secret ties to the Illuminati.

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    6. Richie: A father has a halachic OBLIGATION, not just a "right", to raise his children.

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    7. R' Eidensohn -- why do you allow EmesLeYaacov to be Mevazeh Kavod HaTorah b'rabim? He's clearly disrespecting two well known and chashuva Roshei Yeshiva, R' Shmuel Kaminetzky, shlita and R' Dovid Cohen, shlita in his post above. What exactly are you moderating if a post like that can make it through?

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  2. It appears that the Weiss/Dodelson divorce case is much bigger than those families.

    This case appears like an attempt by the YU ORA (OH-RAH) movement and their allies to conquer the Yeshiva world with the ORA feminist divorce on demand-eliminate Bais Din-abduct the children-terrorize the husband into submission ideology.

    Dodelson has abandoned her marriage, abducted her child, filed as Plaintiff a full divorce lawsuit against her husband, and obtained a bogus SERUV from her feminist rabbinic henchmen. If Dodelson can now force a PASUL GET using the ORA goon squads and the feminist PR attack dogs like Shira Dicker, the ORA feminists will have scored a major victory in the heart of the Yeshiva world, similar to what they routinely achieve in the MO world.

    So there are quite serious ramifications in the Yeshiva world for this case. If Dodelson/ORA manage to win a victory here, there may be a flood of women in the Yeshiva world attempting to break out of their marriages using Dodelson's ORA methodologies.

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    1. Please ask yourself if this comment is in the spirit of respect that Torah conversations should be conducted in.

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    2. If Dodelson/ORA manage to win a victory here, there may be a flood of women in the Yeshiva world attempting to break out of their marriages using Dodelson's ORA methodologies.

      וַיֹּאמֶר מומכן (מְמוּכָן), לִפְנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ וְהַשָּׂרִים, לֹא עַל-הַמֶּלֶךְ לְבַדּוֹ, עָוְתָה וַשְׁתִּי הַמַּלְכָּה: כִּי עַל-כָּל-הַשָּׂרִים, וְעַל-כָּל-הָעַמִּים, אֲשֶׁר, בְּכָל-מְדִינוֹת הַמֶּלֶךְ אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ.
      כִּי-יֵצֵא דְבַר-הַמַּלְכָּה עַל-כָּל-הַנָּשִׁים, לְהַבְזוֹת בַּעְלֵיהֶן בְּעֵינֵיהֶן: בְּאָמְרָם, הַמֶּלֶךְ אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ אָמַר לְהָבִיא אֶת-וַשְׁתִּי הַמַּלְכָּה לְפָנָיו--וְלֹא-בָאָה.

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    3. If Dodelson/ORA manage to win a victory here, there may be a flood of women in the Yeshiva world attempting to break out of their marriages using Dodelson's ORA methodologies.

      You mean to say that there is a flood of orthodox Jewish women that are desperate for a divorce, but don't try to get one only because they fear that their husbands will withhold a get against their will? Why are they so unhappy in their marriages? Why do their husbands want to stay in unhappy marriages?

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    4. "עָוְתָה וַשְׁתִּי הַמַּלְכָּה"

      @Ben Waxman - So now you're comparing Gital to Vashti? Not a good comparison, unless you're an ORA closet male chauvinist.

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    5. Yitz: There is no need or obligation for divorce due to a marriage being unhappy. Better to work on making the marriage happier. Divorce is destructive to all parties. And if the husband does not wish to divorce he need not divorce. A wife claiming unhappiness in not a basis under halacha or common sense to invoke the destructive process of divorce. Divorce is designed for much more serious problems. Which is why Torah Law doesn't allow a claim of unhappiness to mandate divorce.

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    6. emesleyaacov: vashti wasn't so bad (if you're willing to read pashat; and no, i am not going to get into another argument about pashat vs approved midrashim. i still owe Katche-lab a response)

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    7. Ben: If you seriously think "vashti wasn't so bad" perhaps we can agree along those lines that gital isn't so bad.

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    8. i have no idea if she is so bad, he is so bad or anything related to that discussion. regarding the halachic points (who violated this halacha or that halacha), i haven't said a word because this is a subject about which i know little. about who was right or wrong in the marriage, i made one comment which i should have known better than to make, other than that i haven't said a thing.

      i will state one thing: it seems clear that the legal (secular law), cultural, backgrounds to marriage and divorce are changing. guys (males) can yell and scream all they want, that isn't going to stop these changes. religious jews (males, including chareidi males) go to american/secular courts at the drop of a hat. the dam has been broken and you can't stop "arakoit" when women do it.

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    9. To paraphrase:

      The legal (secular law), cultural, backgrounds to gay marriage is changing. guys can yell and scream all they want, that isn't going to stop these changes. religious jews (males, including chareidi males) go to american/secular courts at the drop of a hat. the dam has been broken and you can't stop "toeiva" when men or women do it.

      Right? WRONG. Gay marriage and/or secular divorce-on-demand, even if a non-Jewish societal reality is against Halacha. And Jews live by Halacha even when it is going against the grain and is completely opposite secular societal norms.

      Whether gay marriage or civil divorce. It has NOTHING to do with Jews.

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    10. "legal (secular law), cultural, backgrounds to marriage and divorce are changing"

      Funny, it seems we're celebrating a Jewish holiday this week commemorating ancient Jews who went to war to avoid adopting the non-Jewish cultural backgrounds of that time.

      Ben, are you sure that you and the ORA/MO crowd really want to light Chanukah candles and associate yourselves with ancient reactionary, anti-progressive, anti-feminist, anti-gay Chareidim?

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    11. don't ask me about, i don't know a thing about them. i live in eretz haqodesh, not the US.

      after winning the war, those same fighters then went and adapted the greek ways. there are certain iron clad boundaries which can't be crossed. i am not sure that joint custody or 50/50 splits of property violate these rules. certainly we accept non-jews culture in all sorts of things. chassidim didn't invent their clothing, nor did the litvaks for that matter. people claim some sort of cultural purity are being silly IMO. i mean, we're writing in english.

      in the distant past (the gaonim) the rabbinim were faced with huge challenges in these field. read about שמא תצא לתרבות רעה sometime.

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    12. Jewish Law is that the husband owns all marital assets.

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    13. BT

      show me a beit din today (in israel) where the husband walks away with everything.

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  3. Sounds totally OK to me. Whatever steps someone may wish to take to advance the cause of an agunah, still must be done with the proper hadracha/guidance so as not to violate the rules of our Torah.

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  4. This is actually in line with what I have been saying all along. Is a Get that is given due to social pressure that was NOT mandated by a Beis Din a Get Meuseh? I don't know.
    Anyone want to bet their entire Olam Haba and risk their children being Sofek Mamzeirim with such a Get?

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    1. Yes, it is a get me'usa.

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  5. The issue that is not being addressed is that just like the civil courts Bais Din is stacked in the favor of the party that gets the best representation. I know of one case that the children were kidnapped against civil law and against the custody agreement that was in place before the get. The mother reached out to the community and to the rabbonim and as she was not as religious or prestigious as the family that kidnapped her kids she was ignored. Just recently I asked a communal leader why they helped browbeat the mom and ignore international law the leader responded--"Avadah. The mom was not too religious and could go off the derech." When I told this leader that the mom was physically and verballly abused and the husband's family is sick and they should not ignore the civil courts--THE LEADER GOT ANGRY AT ME. How could this leader ignore the damage that was done and to this day the children, now grown, suffer.
    Until the Honorable Mr. Zwiebel, the esteemed Rav Kotler, the esteemed Rebbes decide they don't have all the answers and as it says in the Torah what again about mishpat and shochad and . . . .

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    1. Halacha takes precedence over secular law. Including insofar as custody arrangements must be. Generally, halacha gives custody of boys over 6 to the father. And if one parent is not religious, certainly halacha is that the other parent be granted custody rather than allow the child to be in an environment and taught ideals against the Torah and Halacha.

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  6. Rav Moshe paskened that the NY State Get Law, if utilized by the wife, will cause a subsequent Get to be a Get Me'usa, she remains an eishes ish, and if she remarries using it she will be committing adultery and any subsequent children will be mamzeirim.

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    1. @Ben Torah - I think you're referring to the first NY State GET Law. My understanding is that the grossly unconstitutional 2nd NY State GET Law is far worse than the first. The feminists waited until after Rav Moshe Z"TL was NIFTAR to pass the 2nd NY State GET Law.

      But the actual wording of the GET laws is really irrelevant. Based on reliable reports I've heard, the NY State judges blatantly ignore the US Constitution by pulling Jewish husbands into their chambers, where the conversations are off the record, and threaten the husbands with dire consequences if they refuse to give a GET.

      The GET laws have opened the doors to massive civil rights and human rights violations against Jewish husbands by Marxist anti-religious tyrants in black robes. The so-called Agudah knows this is going on, and doesn't lift a finger.

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    2. If a secular judge is pressuring a husband to give a Get, such a document will be a Get Me'usa.

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  7. I meant to write that Rav Eliashev paskened as such.

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  8. Richie which yeshiva did you learn in? Can you read hebrew?

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    1. How is my scholarship background relevant to the points I have raised?

      Given that the spoken and written language in Israel is Hebrew, it's safe to say that my Hebrew is on a very high level.

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    2. Why? Many Anglos in Israel have never learned Hebrew well despite living here for many years.

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  9. the get law and claims by the MO biryonim that Weiss hasn't followed halocho when in every case that the female violates halocho but every basic norm of human decency and not a peep from these biryonim that is the real Purim Torah.

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  10. Shlomo Zalman you are a revisionist. no one is fooled.

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  11. An example from VayeishevNovember 24, 2013 at 7:04 PM

    Suggested guest post:
    Is Gital following really emulating Tamar in Parshas Vayeishev?
    Dodelson's supporters are hailing Gital Dodelson's actions in publicizing her side of the story in the New York Post as replicating Tamar's actions in Parshas Vayeishev with regard to Yehuda. But Tamar was actually ready and willing to be put to a horrible death for a crime of which she was completely innocent rather than publicly embarrass Yehuda.

    This supreme irony is apparently lost on Dodelson's supporters.

    http://anitasilvert.wordpress.com/

    Tamar got hauled up in front of Judah to be executed because she was a harlot. Just before she was to be killed, she announced, “I am pregnant by the man to whom these belong!” and produced Judah’s stuff. Awkward. Judah recognized the objects and called off the execution, saying Tamar was right, since Judah hadn’t held up his end of the bargain by giving her son #3 to wed.
    Tamar was given a system in which to live, and when it failed her, she challenged it, bent it to her will, made it work for her, took a big risk, and won. Gital Dodelson is doing the same thing now, but she hasn’t succeeded yet. You can read her story here. Basically, Gital is 25, living in New York, and has a young son. Her ex-husband, though civilly divorced from her, refuses to give her a get, a Jewish divorce. He comes from a very powerful family in the community and knows he can keep Gital in perpetual limbo as an agunah (a chained woman) by withholding her divorce. The plight of the chained women is finally getting some attention from the Orthodox community, though not from those who actually have the power to free women like Gital. Yet. Still, more and more Orthodox leaders are getting involved, and we can only pray they will come to a solution.
    In the meantime, and given that the system and how it’s failed her, Gital has taken her story to the press, the internet, to anyone who will listen. She is calling out her ex-husband, Avrohom Meir Weiss, the way Tamar bravely called out Judah. Judah was enough of a man to know he had wronged Tamar, and publically acknowledged her claim. She saved her own life, was able to move on, and never had to deal with Judah again. I only wish the same for Gital, and the other Tamars like her.

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    1. I am really appalled that my cry from the heart has been so twisted and used to justify actions that are polar opposites of the facts. Tamar did Not call out Yehuda. She NEVER mentioned him by name. She was prepared to burn to death rather than shame him publicly.
      It is bad enough that the whole world has to see how far you are from tamar's example, but at least get your facts right.Tamar did not spearhead a smear campaign against Yehudah and his family. instead , she added to everyones glory. . Tamar and Yehuda married and together raised the illustious family that produced Dovid Hamelech and Moshiach.

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    3. Tamar and Yehuda married and together raised the illustious family that produced Dovid Hamelech and Moshiach.

      machloqet (about them getting married). plenty say it was a one time affair.

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  12. The agudah is an organization that a very long time ago lost any remaining credibility it may have once had. When its self appointed honcho for title of godol hador for America claimed to the effect he was a yochid in boro park and child molestation that occurs in flatbush is not his concern then I am not sure if it is possible for such an individual to sink any lower. Some may find this comment harsh but these are the facts. Clearly this man is not worthy of any leadership position at all whatsoever.

    We have not heard a word from him or the Agudah about beating men up and about many other issues. as far as their stance regarding chreidim in israel not working and going to the army, surely they are just yechidim and if the y don't worry about what happens in their own backyard and what is in walking distance of their houses, they should frankly be told to keep their mouths shut.

    R Kamenetsky has been feminist friendly and anti halocho in just one too many divorce cases. To call for a siruv on friedman when it was his wife who was lo tzias dina is beyond belief. To refuse to even speak to friedman and hear his side of the story is just one more example of how delusional these fake gedolim really are. They are little dictators for whom the facts are irrelevant. I cannot express my personal disgust of the Agudah more strongly.

    Reporting a child who was actually molested requires the approval of an Agudah approved rabbi. Reporting a false case of abuse in divorce according to the Agudah doesn't require any one's approval.

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  13. When are they Going To Address The Restraining Order Crisis Handed out By Rabbi Dovid Cohen from Gvul Yavetz To any women who Requests one (unless it involves one of Rabbi Dovid Cohens own sons than he wants to know why you need a restraining order without going to Bais Din)

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  14. I'm missing something - R' Eidenson - what was wrong with his statement?

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  15. RDE: Interesting article today you might be interested in:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/us/custody-battle-raises-questions-about-the-rights-of-women.html?hpw&rref=us&pagewanted=all

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  16. The quote comes from the Motzei Shabbos session

    http://vimeo.com/79795062

    19:52

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  17. i listened to the bit of "we must do something about subject a, b, c under the leadership of gedolei yisrael". so, what does he/they propose (besides yelling gevalt)?

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  18. Richie you are opining on halchik matters. The impression one is getting based on your opinions that you either don't know any halocho or are antagonistic towards it while knowing.

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