Monday, November 25, 2013

Weiss Dodelson: Background on the siruv from Machon Lehora


Just received this comment from a distinguished talmid chachom. He said I can publish it but to delete his name from the comment. Even though he is fully aware that it will be obvious  from the comment - to the Lakewood establishment - who he is.






Rabbi Eidensohn,

I just wish to point out that over two years ago Rabbi Malkiel Kotler asked me how he can convince Machon Lehora to issue a siruv in this case. 

My response was, if a siruv is warranted why do you need my assistance, and if not why should I assist. His response, "ihr veist doch vee es geit" [my translation - "you know very well how things are done"]

Please don't quote in my name.

45 comments :

  1. nebach,we leave in an oilam hasheker

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    1. If this is true, OY LANU!November 25, 2013 at 4:37 AM

      Can someone please translate the alleged response of R Koler from yiddlsh to English? Ty

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  2. michael,
    This is a very serious matter, to publish such a thing without giving the name. And if we had the name, and if we had the person himself state this in front of a Beth Din, we would not believe it as he is one witness and we need two. Furthermore, if ten people come to a Beth Din and say this kind of a statement, if there is a suspicion that the reporter may hate the victim of the complaint, we don't believe two or ten witnesses. I don't think there is anyone who has smashed Rabbi Kotler more than me, but there is halacha and one anonymous person cannot be believed even if we hear it directly from him and know him.

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    1. Reb Dovid, do you have any affiliation with Machon Lehora?

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    2. Preb,
      I have no affiliation with MachonLehora, but I know a few of the dayanim there and many years ago I used to spend time there. But my point here is not because I like anyone but because there is a gemora that somebody came to Beth Din to testify that he saw X do a sin. Beth Din punished that person who came to testify, and then he asked, "X sins and I get punished?" The Beth Din replied, "You are a single witness and are not believed to say that somebody sinned. Therefore, your testimony is only a statement of talking that is smearing someone's good name and you deserve a punishment."

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    3. No - not so serious.

      R' Malkiel might of [wrongly] believed that a siruv WAS warranted על פי דין, but knew that Batei Dinim don't want to get involved in Rabbinical family disputes, so he was looking for "pull" so ML does what [he thought] was correct.

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  3. I believe that it would beehoove this individual to contact the Roshei Yeshivos who were duped into signing the Kol Korei based on the deficient/fraudulent "siruv."

    Considering all the documentary and circumstantial evidence in this case and teh "game-playing," this person's corroborating testimony can make a very real difference to a family that has been unjustly maligned, terrorized, and now have no jobs.

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  4. Here is the key question: How can Mechon be forced to defend their psak? Ever since the Weisses published their documents there have been serious questions on this psak that simply must be answered. If Mechon can get away with this on this case all of Klal Yisroel are in danger! They are hiding in the shadows, and the questions -- including this latest accusations -- go unanswered. How do we force them into the open?

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  5. If this is true, noone should be going to bais din as it is corrupt on the highest levels. Those respected as the greatest talmidei chachamim are just nogea bidavar. My point is that you may not accept this, let alone passing it on.

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  6. If this is true, noone should be going to bais din as it is corrupt on the highest levels. Those respected as the greatest talmidei chachamim are just nogea bidavar. My point is that you may not accept this, let alone passing it on.

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  7. old time LakewooderNovember 25, 2013 at 5:05 AM

    RDE you need to check up your halachos again. Are we talking about a דבר שבערוה or a דבר שבממון that need two eidim?
    Are people not supposed to believe what you say Rav Elyashiv told you? Or other Gedolim?
    I'm afraid your radar is off on this one.
    Of course an individual is believed to repeat what another individual told him, as long as it has no effect on anything that needs 2 עדים.

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    1. old time,
      Money does not need two witnesses because one witness can force an oath. We find in Bovo Basra that somebody claims his field was stolen and he is in a different country. We may repeat this, not because we believe it, but we say that so and so claims that his field has been stolen, without believing it. This prevents theft. But to return to our post here, somebody with no name known to the reader says something that could destroy somebody's good name. Such a thing has no place.

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    2. I have to agree with RDE (Dovid) on this one. Accepting one witness for Davar Sheberva is relevant to the underlying issue of issur v'heter. We dont accept one witness speaking lashon hara that relates to davar sheberva.

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  8. A lot of good questions about the Mechon Lhoraa siruv were raised here:

    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html

    No one has yet to answer those serious questions and concerns about the validity of the siruv.

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  9. Care to translate the response?

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  10. Rabbi, if you could please explain the folowing to me:

    Gital, on her web site claims: "The Statement claims that Weiss provided the name of a rabbi for Zabla. They provided the name of somebody who had a stroke and, at the time, could not physically carry on a dinner conversation, much less preside over a Din Torah. They gave the name of another rabbi who is rejected by every single Bais Din in the country."

    My confusion is this: if AMW uses an "incapacitated Rabbi" as his borer, doesn't that work to Gital's advantage? doesn't she get to choose a borer who will run over AMW's incapacited one? How is this a problem for her? Does it indicate that she's inventing excuses?

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    1. Anonymous,
      At first the Weiss family had a great gaon as their borer, but he died of a terrible illness. Then they chose Rabbi Gestetner. This Rabbi Gestetner was selected to write a foreword for the very important sefer Mishpetei Yisroel on the laws of Gittin, and the backers of the work are the greatest rabbis in Israel including Rav Chaim Kaniefsky and Rav Wosner.

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    2. So it sounds like you are confirming the Dodelson claim that Weiss initially selected a Rabbi that was physically incapacitated.

      They also claim that the next Rabbi (Gestener I suppose) " is rejected by every single Bais Din in the country." Could you comment on this claim?

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    3. IOW - you didn't answer the question. He wrote a foreword to an important sefer, thank you. Is he accepted by any bais din in the country or is he not accepted?

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    4. Rabbi Gestener is accepted by butei dinim throughout the world with the only possiblee exceptions being Modern Orthodox and DL.

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    5. Columbus?
      Name one. Name one BD that accepts him?

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    6. James: Hisachdus HaRabbonim, is one example.

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    7. Yitz,
      To negate a borare you must prove that the person is unfit for the task. What exactly is wrong with Rav Gestetner so that some botei dinim don't like him? I have asked various Beth Dins and nobody ever answered me that point. Again, the right to choose a borare is a basic Torah right. To take away that right you must prove that the Torah, not botei dinim, reject the person. So what is there about Rav Gestetner that the Torah rejects? I never heard anything specific other than foaming at the mouth from the Botei Dinim that reject him. Why don't you ask a Beth Din that rejects Rav Gestetner for the reason? Please let me know what it is?

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  11. Could the bais din be reached to discuss this topic?

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  12. Wether halachically this report has validity is really not pertinent. Regardless Rav Kotler is seriously guilty for remaining quiet after his family went to the post which spiralled to the jerusalem post newsweek and countless other news outlets. His silence makes him an accessory to one of the most monumental chilull Hashem's in the history of mankind. has anyone asked themselves if Gital dodelson wants a get or wants to win? The stuff that is holding her back from receiving a get today is that she is quibbling about not giving the father enough time on erev shabbos to safely get to the country or to staten island on the shabbos that the child is by his father and she is demanding control of where he takes the child when he has his weekly visitation. on these points she'sefusing to accept a get. Does this sound like a desperate aguna to you? Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky is well aware of these facts since his son Rav Sholo-m is desperately trying to convince the dodelsons to be reasonable yet his letter is still out there saying that avrohom meir is a mesarev and magen that means he's complicit in the protest that caused the mtj melave malka to be booted form it's cite in highhland park he's an accesory of the reshaim who are trying to have the yeshiva of staten island's charter removed he is partners with the yevanim who are tring to get rebitzen sheila feinstein removed from her position as principal of a sfardy school they even stooped so low to try to get his uncle in highland park to stop giving shiurim...any talmid of mtj or yeshiva of staten island should be bombarding rav shmuel and rav malkiel and the noveminsker rebbi with letters and phone calls emails and visits screaming for an explanation ...lo saamod al dam raiecha....the dodelson's company achieve 3000 should be scrutinized ...is funding coming from there to hire this shira dicker who says that other families would hire hit men...does gital even want a get...if she gets one then she is a divorced girl who has made global chilul Hashem and said at least jokingly that she would want to live with someone for 5 years before getting married...now however she is a feminist icon riding a global whirlwind of publicity....in the meantime avrohom meir his fateher and his uncle have been driven out of thier livelihoods and are over 375,000$ in debt because the dodelsons would not come to the table to negotiate equitable custody...yes you heard me ..gital wanted that her husband should have only supervised custody...this is a women with a nanny a women that sends her child out to his father in the cold with no coat and shoes and then when the father returns him with another coat and shoes does not return it...this is a woman who sends her child to her father with a t shirt reading choo choo choo choose mommy....what will be next will they start going after the families children to get them kicked out of schools, or maybe gital will staart going on the talk show cicuit, also bsheim "hagedolim"...how long will the weiss family be subjected to this monumental miscarriage of justice...please please act like me and scream for what is right ...shall a family wieldng huge sums of money be allowed to drag glad yisroel through the mud and tarnish holy yeshivos and the memory of the posek hador Rav Moshe Feinsteiln ztl
    public pressure will help force the dodelsons to allow avrohom meir to give a get and get on with his life...last week he was waiting and ready 3 days to give a get...it is embaressing that any thinking human being on the planet could still think that he is a magein. Please spread this post around wherever you can.
    hoping for the end of the quicksand of machlokes and a yeshua for avrohom meir and gital
    Hashem yracheim
    Truth

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    1. Horrified and sickenedNovember 25, 2013 at 6:36 PM

      Rabbosai, we need to organize the way the Dodelsons are organized. They have a Shira Dicker waging war on behalf of the satan, we need to wage war l'sheim Kvod Shomayim v'Toraso!
      I know Yosaif Asher Weiss. He finished shas before he was 18, not when they told him he could make the siyum at the siyum hashas like Malkiel Kotler. He is a Gaon, a baal middos, and a mentsch. he had a Yeshiva of his own before this, now he is ill, lost his Yeshiva, and broke close to bankruptcy with no job. HOW CAN THESE RABBONIM LOOK IN THE MIRROR!! Yisroel his brother has lived his life for everyone else but himself. He gave his life to the Yeshiva, to desperately ill friends, to family members in need, to chaveirim in terrible straits. NOW HE HAS NO JOB!!! HASHEM YERACHEIM!!! How can we sit still!! Pick up the phone and call these corrupt Rabbonim! Call R' Wachtfogel, call R' Shaechter, call R' Heinemann. This has to be exposed, this has to be stopped. Don't you know ivus hadin when you see it?

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    2. Aceive 3000 belongs to Dodelson? it is a multi million dollar educational software company with contracts with school systems all over the place. They cant repay Weiss for damages? You have to be kidding me. Now maybe we know why everyone is running to suppoe=rt the Dodelsons. How much $ do they give BMG a year? Any windows at Novominslk have their name on it? Whose paying Shira Dicker? Is he on Achieve 3000's payroll? No wonder they are steamrolling the Weisses, these people are very very wealthy. Check out www.acheive300.com I cant believe this information has been hidden out of sight until now.

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  13. James since we don't really know who you are there is no issur here of what I am going to ask. If you cant translate a bit of basic hebrew how dare you start accusing rav gestetner of violating halocho. You have made accusations of violations and I have countered with challenges as to why you dont explain the violations of halocho of the BDA. I dont wish to sound arrogant but if you cant translate how can you be so categoric and vociferous in your opinions?

    Again to blig owner I am only asking these questions since James is really anonymous and to highlight fact that those holding just give a get regardless of consequences are sadly misinformed by their MO leadership.

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    1. um stan? It's not hebrew- it's yiddish!!!

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    2. Stan,
      Do you wish to apologize for your baseless accusation?

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    3. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 25, 2013 at 10:24 PM

      It appears that Stan, for all of his railing about halacha and forced gittin, is actually not familiar with either Hebrew or Yiddish.

      This is just too absurd for words.

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  14. "please please act like me and scream for what is right" -

    Anyone who has the correct names and addresses of persons involved in persecuting the Weiss', Feinsteins, or their Yeshivos should publicize those names on this blog.

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  15. Recipients and PublicityNovember 25, 2013 at 11:32 PM

    1 of 2:

    "I just wish to point out that over two years ago Rabbi Malkiel Kotler asked me how he can convince Machon Lehora to issue a siruv in this case. My response was, if a siruv is warranted why do you need my assistance, and if not why should I assist. His response, "ihr veist doch vee es geit" [my translation - "you know very well how things are done"]

    A few FACTS need to be remembered:

    1) Malkiel Kotler is STILL married to his first wife, the daughter of Rav Michel Feinstein of Bnai Brak. R Michel Feinstein was related to R. Moshe Feinstein. When Malkiel's father R Shneur passed away, Malkiel was called upon to take on the nominal leadership.

    2) But R Michel Feinstein was the son in law of the Soloveitchiks of Yerushalayim, thus when Malkiel married his first wife he agreed to live in Eretz Yisroel only. Something his first wife still holds him to and refuses to accept a get from him. The Aguda rabbis got involved and under Rav Shach they ordered Malkiel to go back to America and ignore his wife's demands. Malkiel begged and begged her to come to America but she stuck to her family's Brisker principles. No golus in America for her! It would be a terrible YERIDA and 100% against halacha as far as the Soloveitchiks are concerned.

    3) Back in America Malkiel was getting lonely so someone came up with the idea for him to start life with a new SECOND wife, and the only way he could do that was by getting a HETER MEAH RABBANIM to marry his second wife, which is what happened and what he did. All the rabbis of the Agudah danced at Malkiel's wedding to his SECOND wife, especially R. Aron Schechter, maybe because the new wife was a TIKOTZKY the daughter of one of Rav Hutner's (and Rav Aron Kotler) disciples. To this day Malkiel Kotler does NOT make a major move without the input of R. Aron Schechter, and in turn R Aron Schechter was labelled a lo tzayis dino by Rav MOSHE FEINSTEIN for not settling the din Torah that was brought by his yeshiva's fired mashgiach R Shlomo Carlebach (not the singer). This has been a huge halachic stigma against Aron Schechter since he took over and it would be his greatest pleasure to see the Feinsteins and their yeshivas and their prestige wiped off the map.

    4) In a nutshell, Malkiel Kotler is an official BIGAMIST according to American law. Add to this that the Dodelsons are also his family and big donors to BMG, he is in a big bind, and THAT IS THE PROBABLE REAL DEEPER MEANING OF HIS YIDDISH EXPRESSION used in the letter posted here.

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    1. You're wrong. Rav Ahron Schechter was instrumental in bringing Rav Dovid Feinstein into the Agudah's Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah. In fact, no one could join the Moetzes without Rav Ahron Schechter's approval.

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    2. You're also completely off-base about American law. If a woman gets civilly divorced but not a religious Get, American law considers her to be divorced and if she remarries she's no bigamist.

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    3. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 26, 2013 at 2:36 AM

      So we are to believe that Rav Malkiel Kotler is waging a battle against Avrohom Meir Weiss, because RMK's first wife was (is?) AMW's second cousin once removed.

      Right.

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    4. Did he have children with his first wife? Who retained custody?

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  16. Recipients and PublicityNovember 25, 2013 at 11:34 PM

    2 of 2:

    5) Many scores are being settled here (conscious or not) by the rabbis here that has NOTHING to do with Gital or her family. The rivalry between Briskers of Israel (and their connections to the Feinsteins) and the Aguda rabbis runs deep, and on top of that add in the rivalry for money, prestige and Torah leadership, between the Feinsteins and the Kotlers (two pre-eminent Litvish dynasties) on the family level even though in America the Feinsteins are the moderates of the Aguda, and of course the patriarch of the family was Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L, the acknowledged POSEK and GADOL HADOR, even Rav Aron Kotler ZT"L deferred to Rav Moshe Feinstein.

    6) But the younger generation of Kotlers has seen their yeshiva outpace the Feinteins' and they now wish to demolish what is left of the good name of the Feinsteins' professional-rivalry-turned-ugly with Rav Moshe Feinstein's legacy versus Rav Aron Kotler's. Now BMG and Lakewood are run like family-run corporate entities with the Kotler clan calling all the shots. This is a huge blundering behemoth that capitalizes on the notions imbued by its founder of "Torah lishma" that is so popular but when it goes awry, like now, it shows it's huge ugly side and failings.

    7) Real leadership of BMG and Lakewood still rests ONLY with R Shneur's widow Rebbetzin Rissel Kotler, and the money man is Malkiel younger brother named Aron who is the BMG CEO and functions like one. Rissel is very old and she may well be going senile if she is allowing this, and everyone knows that her son the CEO Aron Kotler is just an overgrown PUNK who was once basically an off-the-derech teen who drove his father nuts and who was finally "saved" by Rav Noach Weinberg of Aish HaTorah, and he is still VERY immature and a spoiled brat who is nothing like the naive "Torah lishma" crowd of sheep who inhabit BMG. Many have chafed under his tactics and rough-shod ways and there have been terrible rumors that have circulated about his way of life for years, but people in Lakewood fear for their lives and would never say a word. You can just see how ruthless and unprincipled he is from this whole dirty Dodelson saga. He is one of the "Lead point men" representing the Dodelsons. Maybe Gital's mother Saki Dodelson is the real CEO of Lakewood, after all she is the one with the real MBA from tel Aviv University and the Masters in technology from The Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

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    1. RaP: You provide good humor with your conspiracy theories.

      Tell us, who REALLY killed JFK?

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  17. I cannot read this without saying a word for the honor of the signators on the 'Kol Koreh'. These are not the same signators that signed against Lipa or are accused of enabling molesters or are accused of just knowing Gemara and not halacha. There are people signed to whom none of the above applies. Do your research.

    Even if you do feel that your accusations of bias and ignorance have merit, please use a modicum of respect as I'm sure any of the Feinsteins would.

    Rabbi Eidenson, of all people, should be aware of the many times in Teshuvos where Rav Moishe vehemently disagreed with people's positions, yet spoke with honor and respect. The issues of Eiruvin and Heter Mechira are the two that come to mind.

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    1. Az,
      A person who gives an opinion and backs it up with his source is one thing. Signing a letter from somebody's cousin without hearing the other side is not rabbinics, it is mafia. Making mamzrerim without knowing the laws of gittin is a hideous crime and the people who do it don't deserve any respect at all. Again, the leading rabbis in the world have published their opinion that humiliating a husband with MOUS OLEI is forbidden, produces mamzerim and an invalid GET. Anyone who disagrees with Rav Chaim Kaniefsky, Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner, Rav Nissim Karelitz and his Beth Din and other major rabbonim, without providing a source for their opinion, is simply a friend of somebody's cousin and has no right to pasken that such and such must be done to break somebody they never spoke to.

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  18. Why isn't this post pure unvarnished Lashon Hora (or Motzi Shem Ra) that we are not permitted to believe?

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    1. Of course it is. I want to know (call it perverse curiosity) what pilpul Rabbi Doctor Daniel Eidensohn uses to justify publishing this.

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  19. I am horrified by all of the loshon harah here. As a talmid of Yeshiva Staten Island, I cannot believe that any frum person would have the audacity to lobby donors to cease funding a yeshivah. The ends surely do not justify the means, and I recommend that all sides make a serious cheshbon hanefesh before continuing the mudslinging and backstabbing. As much as I am intolerant of people who use a get as a bargaining chip, the so called "agunah" is very different than the true agunah with no husband or get in sight. By making certain demands against a husband who really had nothing going for him other than the bargaining chip of the get, she had to be foolish to think that he wouldn't use it against her. Not that this is whitewashing the actions, but she is not this innocent girl all bound up in chains. She has a very bright future as a spinmeister for any major media company. My heart goes out to all parties caught up in this horrific Chilul H-shem. My suggestion: Daven that we should never be a party or witness to such a Chilul H-shem again, and may H-shem bring Shalom to everyone in the world. Also, please stop posting these ridiculous comments ridiculing frum people, Rabbanim, and the like.

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