Wednesday, November 13, 2013

Campaign to have father fired from Artscroll for supporting son

With the apparently successful boycott against Artscroll to have the father and uncle removed from their jobs  because they supported R Avraham Meir Weiss - the question is what was the halachic justification?
 
We also turn to Artscroll (where his father and uncle who support him work) to protest against his family and to remove them from their positions, for it is not fitting that Torah should be transmitted through them. 
There are a number of major problems with this statement.  Their sin was to support the husband. The Kol Koreh claims that the husband is in nidoi and apparently they hold that those who support a person  in niddoi should themselves be placed in niddoi.  However the sources that are cited in the Kol Koreh to ostracize the husband (Y.D. 334) are  1) Refusing a summons of a beis din (CM 11). However that only applies if he refuses to go to beis din at all not even one of his own choosing (C.M. 14). That wasn't true here and he had a beis din nullify the seruv. 2) They claim he went to a secular court without permission (C.M. 26) - but he did get permission from a posek to do so. 

Therefore if there is no justification to place the husband  in niddoi - then obviously those who support him can not be placed in niddoi. Furthermore Rav Dovid Feinstein said even for those who believe that there had been justification for a seruv - it no longer applied in this case. That is because the husband had been working together with the Dodelson's to negotiate a binding agreement to give a Get.Therefore Rav Dovid Feinstein paskened that he was not guilty of being in contempt of bein din [Rabbi Greenwald's letter doesn't contract this and Rav Dovid Feinstein was fully aware of the nature of Rabbi Greenwald's efforts].

Therefore the campaign to fire the Weiss brothers seems to be a serious miscarriage of justice.  I would appreciate enlightenment by those who think they have a justification for depriving the family of parnossa.

42 comments :

  1. What Kol Koreh? Where was it posted? Who signed it?

    ben dov-
    1honestlyfrum.blogspot.com

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  2. Reb Doniel,

    These posts are more and more unbecoming of you. You are speaking in forked tongues ("working together with the Dodelsons to negotiate a binding agreement"). Yesterday it was binding arbitration. Please.

    I, like many others, don't have a horse in this race. Don't know either side. The marriage was over, long ago. What the man is doing here is extortion.

    The more frantic your posts become, the more obvious it is to all that you don't have a leg to stand on. Not legally, not halachically, not in the eyes of the people, and certainly not in HKB'H eyes.

    I second the comment on a prior thread. If you love the Feinsteins, convince them it's time to give the get and be done.

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    Replies
    1. Daniel S

      You seem to forget the public interest in this case. In a sense it is everyone's business if feminists are setting the agenda to everyone else. It is everyone's business if a yeshiva is used to resolve by force a private dispute.

      Delete
    2. Daniel S, from your many comments on this blog it is more than obvious that you are in the tank with the Dodelson family. Are you part of the Dodelson PR team that they are paying that Manhattan PR firm for?

      Delete
    3. Rav Eidensohn, your posts are becoming shrill.

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    4. Sa,
      'No horse' means exactly that. I'm not in the 'tank' with anyone. I think for myself, believe it or not....some frum Jews can still do that. And BTW, there seem to be a not-insignificant number of others around here like me.

      Eize Hu, your comment is, to be diplomatic, puzzling. I am outspoken on this issue because it's become clear that someone is m'agen his wife for years now, for spurious to non-existent reasons (and I'm being kind). But guess what? I am fully cognizant of the Weiss child, who really should be at center stage of this three-ring circus. The only way at this point to do what's right for the kid is to give the get, and hope that this mess recedes quickly from the news cycle. For Hashem's sake, Weiss has nearly 50% court ordered custody! He is subjecting the child to this horror show for what? For money?
      You, OTOH, are saying that the child should be thrown under the bus for....the battle against feminism?? Against a yeshiva's misuse of its power? Those are reasons to do this to the child??
      Both parents have many years ahead of them where they will need to work together in bringing up this child. To withhold the get is not just an affront to the wife; it shows how little this father could care less about his own child.
      For shame.

      Delete
  3. EVEN IF we assume the husband IS in niddoi, there is no halacha that puts his family in niddoi. Someone being in niddoi doesn't put his uncle or father in niddoi.

    And even if the husband is in niddoi, the husband's supporters, as the kol koreh claims, aren't in niddoi. Only the husband would be in niddoi. Supporters of someone in niddoi aren't in niddoi according to halacha.

    And despite the kol koreh claiming the uncle supports the husband, there is no evidence of that nor has the uncle done anything to support the husband. If the uncle believes in his heart that the husband is correct, that doesn't place him in niddoi. Otherwise half the world, the hamon hoam from Brooklyn to Los Angeles, that heard about the case and thinks the husband is correct would then be in niddoi for thinking that! That is absurd! There is no such halacha.

    So the bottom line is that only the husband is in niddoi -- IF that much; even if we assume for a moment the husband IS in niddoi for argument's sake. That doesn't place his family or supporters in niddoi.

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    1. aryeh malkiel ben aahh"m shnuer kotlerNovember 13, 2013 at 1:59 AM

      Please do not infuse halacha into this argument. Thank you

      Delete
  4. does halachah recognise the right not be fired, because your employee is through no fault of his won causing you big financial loss. I suspect not.

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  5. I thought they resigned.

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    1. @Chayim Yes, they did resign; unless we imagined, as a group, that they submitted a letter of resignation.

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  6. I think that the Kotlers are showing their true face in public. They seem to make the point that if they are after anything they will do what it takes to get it.

    If this case will put the Lakewood leader in the place which they deserve then I guess there is something positive about this dispute

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  7. Daniel S,
    Since you do not know either side , please keep your mouth shut. Not knowing either side is not an excuse to say what ever you want. It is a reason to hit the delete key before you post.

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    1. Freddie,

      I'm good with your comment, but shouldn't it also appear after Eize Hu's too? He seems to be saying there's a public interest in this case.....
      Or, are comments permitted only when they are weighted against the side you happen to agree with? I just would like your take on how consistent your position is.

      Delete
  8. אשר פיהם דבר שואNovember 13, 2013 at 1:55 AM

    With all respect to anyone who may have signed a קול קורא, I believe you are wrong.

    There is a מצוה דאורייתא for us to support each other make a livelihood. The only exception would be if someone did a מעשה, which would make him יוצא מכלל עמיתך.

    We have a חיוב to help the weiss families with their פרנסה, and they have done no מעשה whatsoever. That they support their son, is not any איסור. Even If he wanted to give a גט, and they didn't let him give a get, and even if he was מחויב to give a גט, we still couldn't hurt their פרנסה.

    It is beyond my imagination as to what הלכה was used to sign this letter against them. The rationale of אינם כדאי שתמסר תורה על פיהם sounds like a new made up הלכה, even if they were actively advising their son, and even if there was a פסק בית דין that their son was from those that כופין לגרש.

    We see more than this ראה תלמיד חכם שעבר עבירה בלילה אל תהרהר אחריו ביום שמא/ודאי עשה תשובה.
    I don't know of a קל וחומר בן בנו של קל וחומר greater than this, there are multiple מצות עשה to support חכמים, and here we are trying to take their נשמה away by taking their parnassah away. אוי לאזנים שכך שומעות. There is no עיגון, no סירוב, according to their פוסק, and those who were נרדף are the father and uncle of the בעל דבר. What happened to לא יומתו אבות על בנים. This is beyond a tremendous חילול ה׳ . Much greater than any NY Post article

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  9. It says a lot about our community that there are people here who support withholding a get, whatever the circumstances. It is never excusable. Rav Moshe Feinstein knew that better than anyone - he is rolling in his grave now as his own grandchild willingly acts to keep his ex-wife an agunah.

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    1. אשר פיהם דבר שואNovember 13, 2013 at 4:16 PM

      Halachically, it is his right to give. Your moral code may say otherwise. Halachically she can refuse to take it as well. This thread is about causing the Weisses to lose their jobs. I believe that this is forbidden according to the תורה many times over. It is malicious נקמה, for his son not giving a get, and therefore forbidden. It is violating ואהבת לרעך כמוך, והחזקת בו, וחי אחיך עמך, ובו תדבק just to name a few. Perhaps לא תקום, perhaps לא תעמוד על דם רעך.

      Delete
  10. It says they resigned. No reason to make up more lies then already posted.

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  11. This letter proves that pretty much all the great Rosh Yeshiva's argue on Rabbi Elyashiv's views on gitten. Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn has said many times that the law is that we can not put public pressure, fire people from jobs, and protest in these cases. Yet, the Kol Koreh illustrated the exact opposite.

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    1. Rav Eliashev's views on gittin are not disputed on by any of the major Chareidi poskim. None at all. The signatories don't explain their basis or what they believe the facts are.

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  12. This is very strange. Isnt Rav Dovid or Rav Reuven the Chairman of the Board of Trustees at Artscroll/Mesora? Surely, he could have prevented this?

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  13. [Rabbi Greenwald's letter doesn't contract this and Rav Dovid Feinstein was fully aware of the nature of Rabbi Greenwald's efforts].

    How does it not contradict an explicit statement to the contrary?

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  14. She may be right but I cannot comprehend how it is right to force the father and uncle to lose their jobs.

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  15. Daas Torah wrote: “There will be a clarification in a day or two from the Weiss family regarding the misinformation being spread by the Dodelsons - in particular the issue of negotiating a settlement with the Dodelson with the aid of Rabbi Greenwald.”

    If you have no intellectual honesty how do you expect to interpret Torah and arrive at the truth?!

    The fact is that the Weiss’s have stated very clearly that both sides agreed to arbitration.

    The fact is that this is an outright lie.

    There are 2 conclusive ways of knowing that this is a lie.

    The first proof – the very nature of how arbitration works. Once they agree to arbitration - that they will go to RG for him to listen to their story and decide – their fate is in RG’s hands. It is game over. Whatever he decides happens. We don’t need the Dodelson’s to “agree” to the arbitrator’s decision. The Weiss’s would be able to ask the Court to enforce the arbitrator’s decision. From the very fact that the Dodelson’s didn’t agree to the decision of RG shows that they never agreed to arbitration! Otherwise, it wouldn’t be in their power to not agree!

    The 2nd proof – is the inconvenient fact that RG – the supposed “arbitrator” – writes “the proposal that I become the binding arbitrator was not accepted”

    Instead of admitting that the Weiss’s are liars and dishonest people – you write that the Dodelson’s are spreading misinformation! I first heard of the “arbitration” from the Weiss’s! And the “arbitrator” says he was never an arbitrator. And it is a legal impossibility for the Dodelson’s to ignore the ruling of an “arbitrator”.

    Why if there is overwhelming evidence against the Weiss’s would you automatically assume that the Dodelson’s are spreading misinformation?! Even before the Weiss's answer the evidence you already know that they are right?!

    Isn’t there a source somewhere about being honest? Your bias is causing you to think crookedly. Isn’t it possible that this bias also causes you to interpret Torah sources incorrectly?

    Any possibility of this being a guest post?

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  16. Daas Torah,

    Have you ever read the biographies of R’ Aryeh Levin, R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, the Chofetz Chaim?

    If R’ Aryeh Levin was in a similar situation as Weiss, do you think he would insist on $350,000?

    Do you think R’ Aryeh Levin would insist on more custody (than every other weekend plus 2 nights a week)?

    Or do you think R’ Aryeh Levin would just give the Get?

    It isn’t important if Weiss is “obligated” to give a Get – just do the right thing – do what R’ Aryeh Levin would do.

    You don’t even have to be such a big tzaddik like R’ Aryeh Levin to give the Get. Every year, hundreds of frum men give the get right away. What is unique about Weiss’s case? The irony is that this case is actually simpler than most cases.

    What is bothering Weiss? In what way has he been wronged?

    Weiss received a good custody deal from the Court (2 nights a week plus every other weekend), and the couple had no money and no house to argue about. Why in the world is Weiss making a ruckus? Why are you rooting for the Weiss’s?

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    Replies
    1. Most divorced women are not witches like Gital trying to destroy their ex and destroy his relationship with his child.

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  17. 1) They don't hold from the Beis Din that nullified the Seruv. I don't know why, but it seems many Batei Dinim don't accept Gittin from there.

    2) There is evidence that Avrom fabricated his heter, and that it may be invalid.

    What is your source that Rav Dovid spoke directly to Ronnie and knew the exact nature of his role? Isn't it possible the same people who mislead the great Posek are also misleading you?

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  18. More evidence that Daas Torah is biased:

    Granted that Daas Torah follows similar misguided views as R’ Gestetner on divorce issues, however, why does Daas Torah keep on siding with the Weiss’s on all the side disagreements?

    For example, one can follow R’ Gestetner’s misguided views and still face reality and acknowledge that the Weiss’s lied and deceived everyone that both parties agreed to arbitration.

    And one can follow R’ Gestetner’s misguided views and still be outraged that Weiss is trying to extort the Dodelsons for $350,000.

    The approach of always siding with the Weiss’s no matter what they do shows Daas Torah's bias.

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  19. One major contradiction in Daas Torah’s approach:

    Daas Torah believes that in a divorce all the money and assets belong to a husband, and claims that a woman has no right to insist on 50% of the assets.

    At the same time, he says that Weiss is allowed to demand $350,000! Huh?!

    FYI – the couple have no assets and no house – Weiss wants Mr. Dodelson to write a check!

    So why can’t a woman demand the husband write her a check?

    Is it possible that Daas Torah is biased?

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  20. I don't see why any halacha needs to be involved here. If people don't like a person's behavior and choose not to buy from the business he works for, why is a halachic heter required? A person can buy wherever he chooses. Frum Jews in Israel constantly boycott businesses that work on Shabbos. Do they need a special heter to do this? They simply don't want their money going to a firm they don't like.

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    1. An organized boycott or pressuring someone to fire people is a terrible violation of halacha and Torah.

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    2. why? do I need a halachic sanction to not buy at a place I disapprove of?

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    3. It is against the Torah and Halacha for you to advocate another person fire someone or to advocate that another person not buy from someone.

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    4. You can not destroy a person's parnossa without a clear psak that they themselves are in nidoi. The assertion in the Kol Koreh that it is permitted to destroy their parnosah because they are supporting him - is a sad joke. There is no halacha allowing that - even assuming Avraham Meir was in nidoi - which he isn't. I spoke to several major talmidei chachomim about this and they agreed that it was a serious mistake.

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    5. DT, who are these "major talmidei chachomim"?

      Delete
  21. "Vayomer, Halonetzach tochal cherev? Haloi yadato ki 'moroh' tihye..."November 13, 2013 at 5:56 PM

    This saga is heading the way of Haget MiKliva. It is heading downhill and snowballing like machloket Korach veEdosso, so far nothing was acceptable to satisfy both sides. PR ring with ORA is not Torah, lo zu haderech velo zu ha'ir, this is a very private matter and not laundry to be washed in Public, and releasing drips and dribbles nobody will ever get know the truth or half truth anyway, and the public was never authorized to execute a get. As this widens, it only adds suffrage to all parties involved, today it is already up to Yordim lechayov R'L' and that is not doing anything constructive in helping to resolve, it is simply maaseh Satan hitzliach. The biggest Korban of all is the innocent child that would have preffered for all this not happen, but unfortunately has no to say in it, and like cutting the child in two is not an option. Lemaan the relief of the estranged couple, to stop the AGMAT NEFESH of the parents and all parties involved, and for the benefit of the innocent child, lemaan herim kvod shamayim veTorato I would highly suggest to resolve this ongoing matter by and Impartial Beth Din that does not charge any schar beteilo whatsoever, very fair to each and every party al pi Torah HaKdosha, al pi derech Yisrael Sovo, anshei Chayil, Yirei Elokim, anshei Emes, led by Ish Navon veChochom vaHashem imo, SONEI BOTZA, veshoftu es haam Mishpat Tzedek, vegam kol haam hazeh al mekomo yovo beSHALOM. They are capable of kemoshchei bonisa mechelba. The name of the Beth Din is Givas HaMorah located in Brooklyn NY, kindly Google it. בית דין צדק גבעת המורה

    Shmuel 2:2: 25, 26
    Vayitoka Yoav bashofar vaya'amdu kol haam velo yirdefu od achrei yisrael od lihilochem. Vayihyu la'agudo echos vayaamdu al rosh GIVOH ECHOS. Al tikro 'moroh' ela 'Morah'.

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  22. AZ s nonsence against rav gestetner is pure pure propaganda. The views are identical to the 70 gedolim kol koreh. Only the modernishe are guided. The ungvarer, rav shmuel birnbaum, rav pam, the bobover, etc are all misguided by the true torah.

    Get real. Its you guys who are being guided by kefirah

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  23. James nonsense that he doesn't believe in bais din is kefirah. Why then does he believe in the need for a get? he will tell us because botei din are corrupt. Were rav pam, rav birenbaum and rav menashe hakoton corrupt? rav gestetner follows their rulings. You obviously believe the torah is corrupt so why the need for a get?

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  24. @DaasTorah - "You can not destroy a person's parnossa without a clear psak" - This type of gangsterism is proof positive that the anti-Weiss camp couldn't give a hoot about conducting this divorce dispute according to any ethical Torah principles.

    I don't know the Weiss nor the Dodelsons, nor do I know to what extent R. Weiss, if at all, made mistakes during his marriage that contributed to the divorce. But at this point it doesn't matter in view of the gross humiliation and injustices the Weiss's are being subjected to.

    Gital Dodelson has a right to summon R. Weiss to a kosher Bais Din or Zablah and request a GET. But abducting the Weiss child, unleashing ORA goons, filing a full divorce law suit in NJ courts, posting fake SERUVIM, slandering the Weiss's in front of millions of non-Jews, engaging feminists to slander the Torah, destroying the Weiss's PARNASSA, etc., are totally incompatible with any Torah ethics.

    It should be very clear by now (except to brainwashed ORA trolls) who the aggressors are and who the victims are in this case.

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  25. @DaasTorah - "You can not destroy a person's parnossa without a clear psak" - This type of gangsterism is proof positive that the anti-Weiss camp couldn't give a hoot about conducting this divorce dispute according to any ethical Torah principles.

    I don't know the Weiss's nor the Dodelsons, nor do I know to what extent, if at all, R. Weiss made mistakes during his marriage that contributed to the divorce. But at this point it doesn't matter in view of the gross humiliation and injustices the Weiss's are being subjected to.

    Gital Dodelson has a right to summon R. Weiss to a kosher Bais Din or Zablah and request a GET. But abducting the Weiss child, unleashing ORA goons, filing a full divorce law suit in NJ courts, posting fake SERUVIM, slandering the Weiss's in front of millions of non-Jews, engaging feminists to slander the Torah, destroying the Weiss's PARNASSA, etc. are totally incompatible with any Torah ethics.

    It should be very clear by now (except to brainwashed ORA trolls) who the aggressors are and who the victims are in this case.

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  26. Recipients and PublicityNovember 14, 2013 at 5:56 PM

    Stop the madness and stop fighting with each other ALL of you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Second Bais HaMikdosh was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam ("causeless hatred), and the third Bais HaMikdosh will only be rebuilt by Ahavas Chinom ("selfless love")! You are ALL making yourselves into a laughingstock in full view of the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To the Weisses and Dodelsons STOP IT and tell your warring kids who are fighting each other to grow up and stop acting like BABIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a disgrace.

    ReplyDelete

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