Wednesday, November 27, 2013

Weiss-Dodelson: The end is in sight for Gital to receive her Get

Update and revised:  See- "What is holding up the Get?"
I have been hearing from insiders - on both sides of this horrific fight - that the differences between Gital and Avraham Meir are now small and bridgeable. In other words the end is in sight. Hopefully in the very near future we can all put down the clubs and keyboards and celebrate the end to this horrible affair.

What is preventing the agreement now seems to be that both sides view themselves as The Victim - which is only partially true.  There is only one victim. That is the individual who at present doesn't even know about the battle that has been going on around him - that is their son. No matter how they divide custody and time - he is going to be torn between the two parents that he loves. Hopefully his parents will understand that they have to commit themselves to work together as his parents for their son's sake and act as if they are friends.

In addition one insider told me to that it is very important to mention on my blog that the figure of $350,000 is false. There has been too much yelling and screaming of about this large sum of money and the false claim that Avraham Meir is an extortionist who only cares about money. While it is true that both sides have spent at least that amount in the legal battles and the Weiss would have liked to be compensated in full for the crushing legal expenses - the Weiss's are willing to give the Get without being paid that amount.  What they are demanding is only compensation for being forced to go to court initially to regain partial custody of the baby when Gital ran off with the child. That is considerably less than $350,000.

Finally we all realize at this point that the system is seriously in need of repair. There are too many examples of what can be described as corruption and insensitivity. Halacha is not being observed or being observed selectively. It is clear that some significant changes must be introduced to not only prevent women from being trapped in bad marriages - but also husbands. But the changes need to be universally accepted as operating within the bounds of halacha. This fight has raised the awareness of all of us as to how urgent the problem is. Hopefully this won't be forgotten after Gital has her Get. It is also important to note that if this was not Gital Dodelson (Kotler) versus Avraham Meir Weiss (Feinstein) - nobody would have paid attention. There are significant issues of marriage and divorce which need to be addressed - but why was there been a media circus only in this case?

Update: In response to the assertion that the giving of the Get will be proof that the only reason she received it is the interviews in the NY Post and others media - it simply isn't true. The final settlement will probably be not significantly different than that proposed by Rabbi Greenwald and accepted by Avraham Meir before the media blitz. In other words, Gital's leaving the negotiating table for her media blitz against Avraham Meir - has gained her nothing! Even her supporters such as Rabbi Malkiel Kotler are disgusted by the NY Post article and Newsweek interviews - and especially by her joking comment that maybe she should live together with a guy for five years before marriage. Others were horrified by her statement "I am looking for a stepfather for my son." Rabbi Greenwald mentioned to someone that negotiations in this affair have been much harder than those that he conducted to get Sharansky's freedom.

Rabbi Greenwald - who has had a long and distinguished career in negotiating disputes -  has also noted that in dealing with important people he will often ask that neither side go public with the details of negotiations. Playing to the media severely detracts from the ability to negotiate honestly and make the painful but necessary concessions. Unfortunately he apparently didn't think it was necessary to ask for it here.

It is critical to understand that if in fact Gital had bludgeoned Avraham Meir into submission by the roar of the outraged masses - the resulting Get would be posul. One of the reasons for my extensive coverage of this dispute - is to ensure that when Avraham Meir gives the Get - it will be of his own free will and not because he has a gun to his head. So a knock-out victory by Gital would be devastating to her,  because she would never be able to marry without the concern for mamzerus.

For those of you who think Gital has the right to receive a Get on demand - that simple is not the Torah position. The Torah has a more nuanced position involving the concern for the stability of the family and the well being of children. In particular our Sages have noted that a readily available Get - produces the undesirable consequence that the couple is less likely to work hard to make the marriage work.

Gital definitely has won the support of secular and Modern Jews who view this case primarily as one of human dignity and the freedom of the individual to be happy. But she has lost the support of  Yeshiva Jew view this as a severe chilul hashem and attack on halacha. Even for many of the rabbis who apparently supported her cause - it was primarily for political reasons - and they cringe when you mention "NY Post".

In sum, for those of you who are asking for a scorecard as to who won this fight - the simple answer is no one.

66 comments :

  1. You say Gital ran off with the child, she says that they let him always take the child- but disagreed if it was appropriate to take a baby away from his mother overnight. That is what he filed in court over- there was no abductiom, no matter how loud they yell that there was.

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    1. An interesting and rather ridiculous characterization of events - especially since she didn't return him. You are claiming it was just an extension of an overnight stay and therefore nothing to get upset about?!

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    2. Gital walked out of their marital home and grabbed the child with her without her husband's permission. Neither parent can take the child permanently out of their marital home unilaterally.

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    3. Gital wanted to get away and had a nursing 4 month old baby, it was instinct to have her baby with her. She still let AM have access to him and did not abduct him, but she needed him at home at night to feed him.

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    4. Lament, if Avrohom Meir decided to end his marriage with her and one morning left with the baby to a new home, and then "let" Gital "access to him", you wouldn't be singing the same tune. This is no different.

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    5. She left the marital home and went on fullfilling her duties as a mother.

      Imagine the outcry if she had left and left the baby to the father to care for...

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  2. So your source says they never asked for $350,000? Will he back himself up by saying who he is, or does he not want to because he realizes that he will be killing his credibility?

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    1. Perhaps you want to reveal your real identity? If you took the trouble of reading the post - it was in reference to the end game.

      Do you have a vested interest in keeping Gital in her present state? Or is it that defeating the Weiss's is more important to you than her happiness?

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    2. Weiss does not have to answer to a shmutzy NY Post article by an estranged wife who hates him and wrote many absurd things in that trashy newspaper.

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  3. So the system is in need of repair. What system? The system of the Shulchan Aruch that limits the rights of women to freedom, or the freedom of men to resist that demand for freedom especially when there are children involved, or the system of people refusing the demands of ORA, or just what? At least, don't we have the right to destroy people to help a cousin?
    The issues over here are very clear. A group of Lakewood and Agudah rabbis have a different code of laws about Gittin. The great rabbis of Israel and the poskim of the generation don't recognize their code about destroying men who won't jump and give a GET because "he must." The system is a system where part of Klal Yisroel, led by the true Gedolim who do know the laws of Gittin will declare children mamzerim who are born out of the "Torah" of the Lakewood rabbonim. That is the system that must be fixed, when people obey the Shulchan Aruch and the true gedolim, and the rest of them are either going to behave or else we will send all of the mamzerim to them and tell them to explain why it was necessary for the Lakewood rabbonim to make mamzerim. Keep it true. Keep it simple. And if you don't, the next mess will be worse.

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    1. The Halacha gives men the power. Power can be used to torture people. Halacha also allows kiddushei ketana. It allows many things which we simply do not do and which we consider wrong. Pruzbul wasnt messing with pristine halacha. It was a realization that halacha was being abused and that led to an overall worse situation. Trying to fix a broken system is not necessarily against halacha.
      Nonetheless, you are somewhat correct. We dont have to upend a system to account for a few bad apples. A very small number of people are using halacha to abuse their spouse. (Yes, both men and women) We deal with each of those cases individually. I think Weiss is wrong but I dont conclude that we should therefore change the entire system.

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    2. Well said, Rav Dovid Eidensohn.

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    3. At least the system that has couples forum shopping among battei din, batei dinnim issuing and countermanding seruvim, and competing heirs of Chassidic dynasties suing each other in civil courts. The lack of battei din commanding wide respect for both their learning and their integrity and commanding correspondingly wide respect is a major problem.

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  4. A good starting point for a universally accepted program to handle marital problems and divorce issues is to recognize a) that a divorce is not always warranted when one spouse asks for it b) only a beis din operating under halacha can determine whether a Get is warranted c) if it is warranted the husband should be encourage to give it and if he doesn't halacha should be checked if pressure may be applied d) only after a beis din ruled definitively that a Get is warranted should such a procedure be undertaken e) if a beis din determines that a divorce is not in order, both parties must accept that decision f) distribution of marital assets will be made according to halachic ownership laws of marital properties - and it will be only made by beis din g) custody and visitation will be determined by beis din as prescribed in halacha and following beis din's decision the husband and wife will present that decision to a secular court, if required by secular law, as a "mutually agreed to custody arrangement" to be formally ratified h) the final process in the end-of-marriage procedures, after all custody and property/monetary distribution has been made by beis din and ratified by court, will be the giving and acceptance of the Get.

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    1. this is all dream, or rather, fantasy/illusion, land. none of these ideas are in the works, anywhere.

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    2. the bigger issue with what you wrote is that very few of the ideas have anything to do with a forced get. if a couple decides to divide the property, or if that is what american/israeli law requires, the get is fine. same with custody issues. similarly, if a couple decides to divorce, does everything properly, they're divorced, period. it matters not one whit if a beit din would agree with their decision to divorce or doesn't agree.

      secondly - universally accepted? by whom? the non-orthodox won't hear of it, the MOs aren't either, and i am willing to bet that many in the chareidi world would be unwilling to grant batei dinim these rights. the israel knesset is not about to expand rights to religious courts, not in this manner anyway.

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    3. It is theft if the wife demands half the property when halacha deems he owns it all. Nothing necessarily to do with the Get per se. But division must be done in accordance with halacha not non-Jewish law, when there is a difference between the two laws (jewish and non-jewish.)

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    4. when moshiach tzidqeinu maybe the laws will restored. short of that, ain't gonna happen.

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    5. "It is theft if the wife demands half the property"

      It is theft if a man demands alimony or child support, which Avraham Meir Weiss both did....

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  5. Hopefully Avraham Meir is not going to cave into the Dodelson's extortion and blackmail of them making a public spectacle of this issue through the non-Jewish media.

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  6. sifsosav aynan dovevosNovember 26, 2013 at 11:59 PM

    Dovevos,
    It seems to me that you would love for Gital to never receive a get so that you can continue to publicize how much you know and continue to attack the Weisses.

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    1. No. Unlike you I took the time to review the Dodelson website & documents.

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  7. I hope you are correct.
    As for changes in the system. I have seen the growing popularity of the pre-nup, if not the specified penalties part, at least the non-controversial part of appointment a particular panel to adjudicate problems. It is almost universally accepted in MO circles and has the backing of many Gedolim in Israel. Moreover, while it has not been fully accepted in the haredi world, it is not being opposed forcefully. I know of a wedding in which Rav Dovid Feinstein was mesader kiddushin that included the pre-nup.

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    1. Prenups are virtually unheard of among Chareidim. This is because of the extremely serious halachic problems of the RCA-type prenups. Rav Eliashev banned them and virtually all the other Chareidi Gedolim don't use them as a result. Since this is a halachic problem (get me'usa, adultery, mamzeirus, etc.), it cannot be changed.

      Prenups are a modern orthodox innovation and effectively only used by MO. And even among MO it is very far from being universal, as it is only used by a minority of MO marriages.

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    2. It certainly has been forcefully opposed to by the Chareidi gedolim, including Rav Eliashev. If Rav Dovid was mesader, it does not mean he condoned its use. He may not even have been aware of it. It isn't like they read the prenup under the Chuppa like the Kesuba.

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    3. I dont think that is correct. My point is that it is slowly being accepted.

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    4. According to Rabbi H. Welcher from Queens, "Rav Willig's pre-nup fulfills Rav Moshe's requirements".
      G

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    5. It is not being accepted in the least among Chareidim. Prenups are virtually unheard of there.

      Rav Eliashev strong opposed them. Rav Moshe never addressed them as they came long after his passing.

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    6. Well at least according to Rabbi Welcher Rav Moshe either addressed them or something close enough that its nearly identical. The concept may not have been ~called~ prenup at the time, but the principle was certainly not invented in the last 27 years.
      G

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    7. @James - "I have seen the growing popularity of the pre-nup" - That MO men could sing praises about the insane YU pre-nup is just more proof of MO feminism's total subjugation and brainwashing of MO men.

      No normal, reasonable, decent man would ever consider signing an insane prenup that requires him to pay his wife $150 per day, (collectible in court not Bais Din) whenever she runs off with another man or tosses him out of the house with false DV allegations.

      Just as intelligent, normal men have fled the false feminist religions of Reform and Conservative, it won't be long before intelligent, normal MO men flee the feminist taskmasters running MO.

      How much MO feminist kool-aid have you been drinking James?

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    8. Emes, Calm down. Nobody forces any particular BD. The pre-nup is designed to preselect a BD to handle divorce issues. The couple can choose any BD it wishes. It also formalizes the halachic requirement that the man support his wife while married IF the BD so determines. The idea of preselecting a BD is supported by RDE and the idea of supporting a wife, well, for that we have the Gemara, Ketubah, Rishonim, and Achronim.

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    9. Also,
      I am not referring to MO men. I am referring to cases in which the woman (or usually, the woman's family) want a pre-nup and the man asks his Rosh Yeshiva who does not object.

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    10. In case you are wondering which Rosh Yeshiva in particular I am talking about? Rav Dovid Feinstein.

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    11. @James - "The couple can choose any BD it wishes" - Please STOP your ORA lies and propaganda already. The BDA prenup being pushed by the ORA rabbis refers all matters to the feminist BDA (death bin), and allows no selection of Bais Din as you claim.

      The feminist BDA prenup assumes the man to is always the guilty party if the spouses are living apart, makes no allowance for the man's ability to pay, robs the husband of his halachic right to his wife's earnings, and allows the controlling wife to MOSER her husband in ARCHAOS.

      This BDA prenup is simply an invented feminist religion completely contrary to Judaism. Any man who signs it is a fool.

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  8. It was you who mentioned the sum of $350,000 as part of your "pragmatic solution".

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    1. No, that fake sum came from Gital's NY Post claim. It is baseless.

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  9. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-pragmatic-resolution-to.html

    "First step: $350,000 should be put in escrow according to both their lawyers advice. Giving of the money to Avraham Meir is to be contingent on his giving a get of his own free will. This step is really the simple one"

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  10. ora please stop harassing reb ruvein feinsteins wife,i hope for your sakes that such behavior is not your MO

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    1. I guess that means that's working.

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  11. Ora please stop harassing reb ruvein feinsteins wife,i hope such behavior is not your MO

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    1. @Jay - Yes, it is ORA's MO. Harassing, humiliating, and persecuting innocent persons is the standard methodology of ORA MO (modern Orthodox) feminists.

      Hershel Schachter's ORA (OH-RAH) feminists are like foaming mad dogs when they hear about a fake "AGUNAH". Any AVEIROS are allowed, and HALACHA is absolutely no obstacle, when rescuing the fake "AGUNOT".

      Please ask Rav Reuven Feinstein to publicize a letter condemning Hershel Schachter and his ORA goons, and putting them all in CHEREM.

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  12. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 27, 2013 at 3:52 AM

    Daas Torah,
    I believe the million dollar question here is:
    If/when Avrohom Meir Weiss gives this get, will you and your brother consider it a kosher get?

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    1. yes becaue it is clear that the publicity blitz is not the reason for giving the get.

      . Please read the additions to the post

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  13. Just want t point out that if its true then the publicity stunt WORKED!!!
    This blog playing an essential part of it
    I just hope this will NOT become standard practice its so unfortunate that it took this much to get things done

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    1. no the publicity stunt didn't work - see update in the post

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  14. You claim that the Weiss demands are reasonable and that in this case Gital could have just worked it out with Rabbi Greenwald and didn't have to go to public. Even if that's true, your position is that every woman should be at the mercy of any extortionate demands of her husband with no legal recourse. What if hypothetically Weiss were demanding $10,000,000 and full custody, then what should she have done? The point is that there according to your position there is no accountability for the husband and nothing to stop him from extorting whatever he wants.

    Even going to Beis Din is not an option, since Gital did that and Weiss didn't show up. Yes, I read all the arguments on this blog about how BML didn't conduct itself appropriately in this case, but one can always come up with some argument why any given Beis Din is illegitimate/not authoritative. The upshot is that the husband can hold the woman hostage and extort whatever he wants, and the woman is supposed to be quiet and decide whether to give in to his demands or to remain an Agunah.

    I know the blog author and various commentators keep claiming that this is the Torah position and everything else is a perversion of Halacha, but clearly many poskim don't agree. I would personally like to see all major poskim go on the record as to whether they think the Torah position is that it is appropriate for a husband to withhold a get as leverage in negotiations or not.


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    1. I disagree with your conclions that many poskim disagree with my view. It would be very helpful if rabbis actually revealed their views with full sources - something which is rare today.I agree with your concerns about a woman being trapped by halachic considerations - please read my brother's proposed solution

      http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/11/a-proposal-for-solving-problem-of-get.html.

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  15. What was meant by the statement: "I am looking for a stepfather for my son." ?

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    1. That was Gital's comment in the New York Post. She indicated she wants to replace Avrohom Meir as the baby's father with a new man she will marry.

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  16. WILL THERE BE A GUARANTEE FOR THE WEISS FAMILY THAT THE DAY AFTER THE GET SHE DOESNT GO TO COURT AND HAVE EVERYTHING CHANGED. WHAT HAPPENS IF SHE REMARRIES AND DECIDES TO MOVE TO ISRAEL OR CALIFORNIA - IS THERE GOING TO BE A STIPULATION THAT SHE CANT DO THAT UNTIL THE CHILD IS 18.
    (BY THE WAY THE ONLY GUARANTEE IS MONEY IN ESCROW - AND THE AMOUNT HAS TO BE BASED ON THE WOMAN'S FAMILY NET WORTH. UNLESS OF COURSE BMG WANTS TO PUT UP ONE OF THEIR BUILDINGS TO GUARANTEE THE DEAL)
    AND WHAT WILL THIS DO TO OTHER CASES?
    WILL IT ENCOURAGE ORA TO DO WHAT THEY DID HERE?

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  17. Since we are talking about fixing the system, one thing that jumps out from this whole sordid story is the utter failure of the beis din system in America. One side files in one beis din, the other side supposedly demands zablah (which is halakhically his right), the beis din ignores it and issues a seiruv, the other side issues a bittul seiruv, one side gets a prominent Rosh Yeshiva to use influence to sway the beis din, etc. etc. What a complete circus.

    How about this as a pre-nup: couple agrees in advance to go to a particular beis din with respect to anything that relates to the marriage (or a mechanism for picking a beis din, such as an approved list of dayanim, with zabla), and is bound by anything and everything the beis din paskens, including get arrangements and monetary arrangements, all enforceable in the secular courts. (Which they will enforce as binding arbitration, except for child custody. In fact, many commercial contracts today have binding arbitration clauses, and a mechanism for picking arbitrators. And the courts strongly favor this arrangement, and will almost always enforce it, absent fraud or duress.)

    Any halakhic objections to that? (Seems to me that one, going to a beis din is a chiyyuv deoraysa, and two, if a beis din paskens that a get must be given, then a secular court enforcing that is aseh mah she yisroel omrim lach. But I am no poseik.)

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    1. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 27, 2013 at 6:45 PM

      I think what you described is half of the RCA prenup, the other half being the mezonos part.

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    2. @Tal - Your idea may be workable if non-feminist POSKIM accept it, and if it is not written like the YU prenup with blatantly sexist anti-male bias.

      The feminist YU prenup assumes the man is always the guilty party, so he must pay the wife $150 per day if they separate for any reason such as if the wife throws out her husband with false DV charges, and then lets her boyfriend move in.

      The YU prenup also takes no account of the husband's actual ability to pay the $150 per day, and robs him of his halachic rights to his wife's income when he is supporting her.

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    3. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 27, 2013 at 8:32 PM

      From the prenup.org -
      "1. Each spouse agrees to appear before a panel of Jewish law judges (dayanim) arranged by the Beth Din of America, if the other spouse demands it, and to abide by the decision of the Beth Din with respect to the get.

      2. If the couple separates, the Jewish law obligation of the husband to support his wife is formalized, so that he is obligated to pay $150 per day (indexed to inflation), from the date he receives notice from her of her intention to collect that sum, until the date a Jewish divorce is obtained. This support obligation ends if the wife fails to appear at the Beth Din of America or to abide by a decision of the Beth Din of America."

      In other words, it makes an explicit exception for when the man is not the gilty party.

      EmesLeYaakov can continue living in his fantasy world...

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    4. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 27, 2013 at 8:57 PM

      Is Rav Asher Weiss also a feminist posek?
      http://theprenup.org/pdf/Rabbi%20Asher%20Weiss%20Prenup%20Letter.pdf

      How about Rav Ovadya Yosef?
      Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg?

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    5. @Superintend(ent) - "it makes an explicit exception for when the man is not the g(u)ilty party" - You may be fantasizing that you're ORA's propaganda Superintendent, but ORA should fire you. Unlike you, a competent ORA propagandist should at least be able to honestly and correctly cite legal documents (even if he can't cite any HALACHA sources for ORA's policies).

      Please cite the exact phrase in the feminist YU prenup where the husband is explicitly exempted from paying if he is not the "guilty party".

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    6. Superintendant ChalmersNovember 28, 2013 at 4:04 PM

      Section 7:
      "However, this support obligation shall terminate if Wife-to-Be refuses to appear upon due notice before the Beth Din of America or in the event that
      Wife-to-Be fails to abide by the decision or recommendation of the Beth Din of America."

      For the record, this prenup has absolutely nothing to do with ORA. Again, you seem to be living in some fantasy world...

      Delete
  18. I am really perturbed by your statements about some of the major Poskim in the USA. That list was not of political opportunists or figureheads. There were some major people including someone who Reb Moshe appointed over Gittin V'kiddushin.

    If the get could have been given without going to the papers, then why wasn't it given? Logic points to the fact that they needed to go to the papers and a long list of Poskim appears to agree. They told her to go the papers. (Maybe they should have said which ones).

    This is a big deal because a Ben Torah who should have known better did not act like a Ben Torah. The Rabbonim made a clear statement that he was not acting like a Ben Torah by asking him to leave yeshiva and asking those who support him to stop teaching Torah.

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    1. The husband is not wrong for not wanting to give a Get. Just because the wife wants a Get does not mean it is the correct thing for the husband to give one.

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  19. Avramie Gives the Get Or Doesn'tNovember 27, 2013 at 10:23 PM

    Stop using phony phrases such as the "delivery of the get being held up". Avramie's giving the get is solely within the power of Avramie.

    The get doesn't give itself. Two people don't jointly give it.

    The question is NOT what is holding up the get. the question is "Why isn't Avramie giving her the get?"

    Making it seem any way other than Avramie has the get and won't give it, is truly a sign of propaganda.

    The mugger puts a gun in the face of the victim. "You have the power to hold up the delivery of the bullet into your face".

    Your own destiny is in your own hands. Pay or die.

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    1. Wow! Let's forget about everything and ask - Does he have free will or not? Let's ignore whether he gets an appropriate custody arrangement etc etc and ask one question - does he have the free-will to give the get and if he does he should do it. Total nonsense!

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  20. The husband is not wrong for not wanting to give a Get. Just because the wife wants a Get does not mean it is the correct thing for the husband to give one.

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  21. "especially by her joking comment that maybe she should live together with a guy for five years before marriage."

    Well, this is less radical than Dovid Eidensohn's approach who states that no jewish woman who does not want to be chained as an aguna should ever marry.

    Since she obviously does not want to be chained as an aguna, Dovid Eidensohn, as per his comment on another post, would recommand her not only to live together with a man for five years before marrying him, but that she should live together as long as she wants and never marry him.

    In fact, I think Dovid Eidensohn shows us the right path to solve the Get extortion crisis.

    Why does it cause outrage when Gittal says she wants to know her next husband better before marrying him, but no one reacts when dovid Eidensohn favour cohabitation over marriage in order to avoid mamzerim?

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    1. Blatant,
      You have done me the kindness of quoting me and my brother extensively but I have yet to recognize anything that I am supposed to have said. I just don't have the energy to chase a person around the block when he just has his own version of how to win an argument.

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  22. “WHAT IS HOLDING UP THE GET”.

    I formerly respected the Feinstein clan, but how can they pretend that something other than Avramie Weiss is holding up the get.

    Is it aliens from space? Is it Angels? The FBI?

    A get doesn’t hold itself up. The one who has it in his power to deliver the get either (a) delivers the get to the ex-wife or (b) refuses to deliver the get.

    There’s no postal service employee that has seized the get and “is holding up delivery of the get”.

    There is no heavy traffic in Manhattan“that is holding up delivery of the get”.

    There’s no government regulation“that is holding up delivery of the get”.

    There is no halachic shayla “that is holding up delivery of the get”. is

    Feinstein Family: Can we stop all the deception here about “what is holding up the get”.

    Avramie Weiss has the get. He is extorting his ex-wife by refusing to deliver the get unless she complies with his demand for money and better child custody terms.

    So it is 100% pure deception on the part of the Feinstein Family to pretend there is some question as to “What is holding up the get”.

    Abraham Meir Weiss, einikle of Reb Reuven Feinstein is personally “holding up the get”. To pretend otherwise is delusional.

    End of Story

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    1. SUrely NOT the "End of Story" at all. u wrote nothing of substance [תוכן]
      just empty words of motsey shem rah!! & bizoi talmedei chachomim

      Delete

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