Thursday, May 31, 2012

Curtain falls on yy's saga

On 5/31/2012 1:21 PM,  --- wrote:
Your blog is thought provoking, and I’ve been following it for some time.  I was moved by yy’s story -- just about ready to post another comment -- and was surprised to see that the whole thing was removed.  Then I saw your tweet about “yy’s saga” which seemed to judge the author negatively, and that disturbed me.  Later I went back to the tweet and found that its content had been removed also.  I'm wondering what's going on.  Thanks.
Yes yy story was moving and well written and is a good example of a marriage collapsing. However despite posting anonymously - he did not want to be judged or criticized based on the personal details he wrote about himself - but only wanted to stimulate discussion of a general nature and in his words "get sympathy & empathy". I felt it was counterproductive for him to reveal his personal details of his life to the public as well as his judgments of his wife - and then to get irritated if readers didn't view events as he did and judged him harshly. He disagreed and got hurt and became angry with me for not taking his side - so the post was removed. My purpose in publishing was to encourage awareness and communication about an all too common problem. I felt that he was in fact benefiting from the feedback he got as well as in communicating the problem and thus it was a win-win situation. He clearly disagreed and asked that I remove his post which I did. I had written a more detailed description of events and but decided to remove it. 


  1. Oh. I thought yy himself withdrew his text & comments because he became aware that he gave away too many personal details...

    I think anonymity on the net is elusive, especially in the small jewish/hareidi world...

  2. It was hard not to feel for him, eventhough I think he is making a mistake witholding the get.

  3. Thank you for posting this, and the entire saga as well. I think that while Batmelech's comments and view are valid and something I personally connect with - I do also believe that yy had made quite a few good points about how things can go over board quickly and quite extremely.

    Its a shame that more people didn't comment and give yy chizuck. I for one did understand his point of view and don't fully understand what is wrong with demanding 3 months of counseling before throwing a 25 year marriage out the door. yy seemed rather reasonable in his requests and I think that that most people would demand the same if it was the wife in his shoes. Its obviously impossible to know the details fully and it could be that this demand is improper - but it just seems fair that they should both try - 3 months of counseling is not a long commitment...

    1. Well, if you go back to the post about yomin postelnik, he was so (verbally) abusive in Beith Din that the Beith Din clearly decided they could not demand the wife go to marital counceling.

      If you followed yy, he had quite harsh reactions towards persons who were ON HIS SIDE, trying to help when, as soon as they had a different opinion than him. If you followed the way he argued, it might not be so easy to go through three months of counceling with him.

    2. Batmelech - I fully agree with you. To be honest I didn't read his posts with as much focus as you did - so you are probably right about his attitudes and personality. (Although it is possible he is being totally misread and he is as sincere as he thinks)

      But I do still think that it isn't an overly excessive a demand to make. He does seem very willing to give a GET afterwards...Understandably the wife already was put through 25 years of yy, and on the one hand another 3 months may seem eternal, but on the other hand we are talking about either saving a 25 year or an easy divorce...

    3. Well, you see, if he pays for counceling, she might tell herself, OK, let's go through it and it will be over. However, it might be that he would argue "you are not honestly trying, so it doesn't count" and still postpone the get even after the 3 months of counceling...

      I can understand a wife that does not want to be convinced to come back...

    4. "However, it might be that he would argue "you are not honestly trying, so it doesn't count" and still postpone the get even after the 3 months of counceling..."

      That is certainly a valid concern. Having a written agreement before counseling that clearly stipulates the schedule of sessions and their duration, and that explicitly negates any obligations of either party other than showing up should solve this. Or another possibility is to put into writing that they both agree to follow the advice of the agreed upon therapist to either continue or have the GET given. (I don't know how this would work with GET Me'usah if the therapist advised giving it and he refused - but I'm sure others on this blog will have many thoughts on the matter ;) ).

    5. Well, such an agreement would not help if he chooses to disregard it (when the result of the counseling is not to his liking). He still could refuse the get and, according to some commentators and writers on this blog, nothing can force him to give it, even if he violated another agreement by withholding it.

      They even argued here that they prenuptial agreements (imposing a fine on the husband when he refuses get) would be regarded as "coercion" and make a get invalid...

      So he can sign anything he wants and still refuse a get if she still wants it after counseling.

      your second option is not viable for the wife - what if the therapist recommends they stay together, but she does not want??? And anyway: would you stay with someone you do not want just because a therapist says so??? (Might work for a trial period, but indefinitely?)

      I suppose that her position is that she does not care that much about the get because she has no intention of remarrying in the next future. So he cannot use the get as leverage to force her to do anything.

      So he can annoy her by withholding it, but not reach his aim of forcing her into counseling...

    6. I again agree with you about the fact that at the end of the day she may not get a GET because of the husband's stubbornness.

      My only point is that yy doesn't seem to be asking of much. As far as I can tell from the story this is the only demand he has made since being asked to give a GET. I understand that there is probably a large back-story about the way he treated his wife etc. and that this may cause a lack of trust. But this is one request that seems very fair and reasonable.

      Are the written agreements before counseling 100% binding? Will they actually be usable? I don't know. But the point is trying to move forward with ending the conflict one way or another (either through divorce or "renewing their vows"). It seems yy is willing to do this in a sincere she willing to reciprocate?

  4. ami published an interesting article that illustrates the entitlement mentality of kollelniks.

    It is found here and referred on those two blogs:


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