As is to be expected this topic of divorce has elicited strong feelings and vigorous debate. While there are clearly issues of intepretation - there are other things are simply undisputable facts. One of those is that in the case of ma'us alei - we don't posken like the Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 14:8) that the husband can be forced violently to give a get. In a recent debate with Rabbi Berger who denies this fact and insists we do pasken like the Rambam - Rabbi Bechhofer got involved. Rabbi Bechhofer as we all know is a super brilliant talmid chachom - who has very strong well informed opinions - which he expresses not only on this blog but on his own blog and other forums.
See Comments here
I asked him whether he agreed with Rabbi Berger. He replied to a secondary issue regarding the Rema - but ignored my primary question. Since this issue goes to the crux of the issue of ma'us alei - I am asking Rabbi Bechhofer to declare pubicly whether he holds that the Rambam's position of beating the husband in a case of ma'us alei is in fact the accepted halacha.
The previous picture was selected by Rabbi Bechhofer on a website. Didn't see any problem with it but since it offends you I replaced it from the picture on his home page.
ReplyDeleteIt is not an indisputable fact. In fact many poskei zmanenu, and perhaps most of the major poskim in Eretz Yissrael in the last 50 years, who have spent a large part of their lives dealing with Even Haezer, have all paskened like the Rambam.
ReplyDeleteRav Shlomo Dichovsky likes to say publicly, that all those that do not have the responsibility of dealing with Even Haezer, must kofef themselves to those who have. (And yes, he holds that the halacha is like the Rambam as well.)
As I have mentioned in replies to earlier posts, here are a list of poskim who pasken lema'aseh like the Rambam.
1. Tzitz Eliezer in vol 4 ch 21 allows it. And in vol 5 ch 26 in a response to Rav Elyashiv, he chides Rav Elyashiv for ignoring a large amount of Rishonim that maintain that one can force a get if she claims maus allai.
It should be noted, that R Waldenberg holds that the Rema 77:3 did not decide against the Rambam, rather he holds that it depends on minhag. He bases his reading of Rema on Biur HaGra 38.
2. In Piskei Dinim Rabaniyim vol 1 p 38, Rabbi Reuven Katz, and Rabbi Yizchak Ben Menachem (for those who don't know, he waz R IZ Melzer's son inlaw) allow it as well.
3. Rav Herzog in Hechal Yitzchak EH 1 chapters 2,3,4 allows it as well.
4. R O Yossef in the teshuva being cited over and over here.
In conclusion. Anyone who says that it is a indisputable fact that the halacha is not like the Rambam, is ignoring reality.
Simple question: Rambam(Ishus 14:8) says in that in a case of ma'us alei we force the husband to give a get - when is understood according to OTZER HaPoskim - according to all achronim as meaning beating. Do these poskim you cited saying that beating is permitted?
DeleteOr is it that they acknowledge the halacha is not like the Rambam but because of concerns that women will remarry without a get or convert - they say pressure is needed because of emergency needs? The sources you cite do not say that the halacha is like the Rambam.
This is a very elementary issue and has significant consequences.
any psak coming from employees of the rabbanut le'kula is not worth the paper it is on. those employed by the rabanaut either listen to the desires of the tzionim who could not care about kedusha (rav ovadya letzion paskened any woman in the israeli army has a chezkas beula).
ReplyDeletethe majority of poskim? nice to know the posek hador, the chazon ish and brisker rov don't count but broyde counts.
"Rabbi Bechhofer as we all know is a super brilliant talmid chachom - who has very strong well informed opinions"
ReplyDeleteI don't see it from someone who holds that bais din can mechayev a get in the case of a woman who is in arko;oys and has also been oyver mesirah. I don't see it when he sides with the death bin of america.
But you are perefectly ok with a many being in arkaot and being over mesirah as you have repeatedly demonstrated by not condemning Aharon Friedman. Which leads me to believe that you views are not guided by Torah but by misogyny.
DeleteThey permit beating. The straightforward reading of their teshuvos is that they find that there is room to rely on the Rambam, lehalacha ulema'aseh.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that there may be tzirrufim later, in the teshuvos that were actual cases ROY, Piskei Dinim, are due to the fact that each case is complicated and has more than one angle to it. The other 2 cited are general teshuvos not actual cases. But if we read them carefully, it is clear that they hold like the Rambam.
(This does not meant in any way to deny that there are those that disagree. Specifically Chazon Ish, and Rav YS Eliashiv - truth is I can't find a teshuva written by him on the subject other than the 3 line letter you posted. I assume his objection to be true since Tzitz Eliezer 5:26 is written as a reply to his objections.)
I think we need to make some distinctions. There is a difference between saying the halacha is like the Rambam or he can be used in combination with other facts to permit something. For example Rav Yosef says that if a person's get was coerced and remarried we can rely on the Rambam so the person doesn't need to get divorced.
DeleteThere are others like the Tzitz Eliezer who seem to be pushing that because of our times that we should be going in the direction of the Rambam. See Rabbi Gartner's article that I just posted which briefly discusses the option of changing the halacha to the Rambam's view.
I posted a teshuva of Rav Eliashiv dealing with ma'us alei
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/04/rav-eliashivmaos-alei-get-not-required.html
Another basic question. Why didn't Rabbi Broyde explain ORA's demonstrations by simply saying "we posken like the Rambam so what is the problem?" Why did Rav Schachter feel a need to say that demonstrations are not worse than harachakos of Rabbeinu Tam. Rabbeinu Tam explicity rejected the Rambam - so why do I have to care whether I am applying greater pressure than he allows? There is no limit according to the Rambam.
ReplyDeleteHappy to oblige.
ReplyDeleteI hereby declare publicly that I hold that the Rambam's position of beating the husband in a case of ma'us alei is in fact NOT the GENERALLY accepted halacha.
(I add generally, because Teimanim evidently do follow the Rambam's psak in this regard, and because the poskim will use it as a snif in conjunction with other cheshbonos.)
Stan it is an unfair world - but as you acknowledge it is my blog.
ReplyDeleteThank you Rabbi Bechhofer - please convey that information to Rabbi Berger since he no longer reads this blog.
ReplyDeleteand a very biased blog and clearly your leanings are in favor of the biryonim who break halocho. post my comments you are a coward. i see that your leftist buddies can't answer me so they convinced you to ban me.
ReplyDeletejust look at the lies of tzadok that you have no problems with. you are a real hypocrite.
half a comment where is the rest of the comment?
ReplyDeletewhere are my other comments?
Stan my readers are primarily in one of two camps - those that despise your comments and therefore don't pay attention to anything you say and those that think your are simply a nut - and don't pay any attention to what you say.
DeleteThere are a few people who do do pay attention to your comments by looking at your message rather than your abusive statements - I am one of those.
It is really a shame because you do have genuine concerns and obviously know how to learn and you could be a major source of information if you could stop focusing on the joy of trashing other people. The Shomer Emunim Rebbe - who is a major kanoi - told me that you can only be a kanoi if you don't enjoy doing it.
>The Shomer Emunim Rebbe - who is a major kanoi - told me that you can only be a kanoi if you don't enjoy doing it.<
DeleteI like that line!
And, btw, it's obvious that Stan is a twisted individual. It could be that a bitter divorce made him that way or perhaps he always had that problem. Life is way too short to spend like that though and I recommend to Stan that he do everything possible to lose that boulder on his shoulder if at all possible. Life will be much more enjoyable!
@R Daniel,
ReplyDelete1. ROY is permitting a machlokes Bederabonnon beyadayim. Not jujst if it was done.
2. I don't answer for Rabbi Broyde or R H Schachter. I have no clue about the Freidman case or any specific case. So I have no clue if it is even a proper amtalla for maus allai.
I imagine that they are not willing to pasken outright like the Rambam as they acknowledge that it is a major machlokes, and are unwilling to be as bold as those mentioned above. Therefore they create tzirrufim and use Rabbenu Tam.
It should be noted that both Tzitz Eliezer, and ROY do not view jail as keffiya. I imagine that public pressure is less than jail. (Also I recall even a cherem being a machlokes if it is considered keffiya - I have to find it.)
@Stan Don't be a fool. The chief rabbinate has zero to do with the army. Many major talmide chachamim were part of the Rabbanut it the past, and there are major talmide chachamim in the Rabbanut today. In fact, this sugya was discussed by R EY Waldenberg and R YS Eliashiv at least 40 years ago. Neither cursed each other out over their disagreement, and neither did R Eliashiv quit his job over the fact that his contemporaries were disagreeing with him. In fact, I have yet to find (though still looking in Piske Dinim Rabbaniyim) for an instance Where Rav Eliashiv in his capacity of BD Hagadol (Rabbanut) overturned this kulla by a lower BD.
Chazon Ish counts, Rav Eliashiv count. But so does Rav Reuven Katz (chaval many today never heard of him, see how R Tz P Frank refers to him), R Y Ben Menachem, R Herzog, R Waldenberg, R Ovadia.
@Rabbi Bechhofer
Not just because of Temanim. Rather because Rambam is the most influential Rishon when it comes to halacha. Most of Shulchan Aruch follows the Rambam. Furthermore, there are many Rishonim who agree in this case with Rambam. (See Rashbash for his breakdown of 7 shittos).
the teshuva of Rav Ovadia was brought down in Otzer haPoskim in the section of forced get bedieved and they quote him as saying that your can rely on the Rambam bedieved that we don't require a person who has been divorced through a coerced get and got remarried to have to leave the new husband.
DeleteRead the original.
DeleteKollel Nick:
DeleteAgreed. Sorry I didn't make that clear to begin with.
Rabbi Eidenaohn, There is nothing inherently wrong in pointing out that both R. Berger and R. Bechhofer, despite their vigorous denials, are essentially Jews who are of the MO persuasion philosophically. They are on the center-left wing of Orthodoxy.
ReplyDeleteI don't really know what it means - especially if you say they deny it. the disputes I have had with both of them revolve on how to read or interpret something - not on basic principles
ReplyDeletedaas torah it is better ofr a person to be thought of as a nut one's whole life than to be thought to be a sinner so to be thought of as a nut by the biryonim of the BDA is actually a complimnet.
ReplyDeletea kanoi is someone who does something like pinchos without a p'sak mefuresh. I actually believe that a woman in arko'oys for money has most probably din of a rodef and if she made any false allegations of mesirah she is defintely a rodef and it is very possible that those supporting her may also have such a din. since i never got such a p'sak outright i have not voiced previously and have not acted on it so you need understand what a kanoi is and isn't before labeling me as one.
sorry to break it to you people consider your brother nuts.
i consider broyde, schlachter berger, bechoffer and tzadok as nuts. ain odom choteh elo im nichnas bo ruach shtus (dont have exact wording)with their perversions of halochoh.
a kanoi is someone who does something like pinchos without a p'sak mefuresh. I actually believe that a woman in arko'oys for money has most probably din of a rodef and if she made any false allegations of mesirah she is defintely a rodef and it is very possible that those supporting her may also have such a din. since i never got such a p'sak outright i have not voiced previously and have not acted on it so you need understand what a kanoi is and isn't before labeling me as one.
DeleteBut again you are fine with a man being in Arkaot. That is hypocrisy. Pure and simple.
One should be very careful before labeling another a "rodef".
DeleteStan, it's not just the biryonim that think you are nuts. We all think you're nuts (with the exception of RDE).
DeleteTzadok, does the torah really expect us to be suckers? According to the Friedman camp, there was a very real concern that Tamar would not let BD decide the custody issues. If that were to happen BD would probably give Aharon permission to take her to court. By the time BD would give up on the case, he would have no legal rights left if he didn't start proceedings sooner.
Aharon got a pesak from ONE rabbi that he can go to court in order to preserve his legal rights but not to have the court actually decide the case. The goal was still to have the case judged by a beis din. It's not difficult to understand why a rav might pasken that BD's permission is not necessary for this kind of action.
In fact in the end his action did not help. At a later point he postponed a court date in order to let Beis Din judge the case. But Beis Din never did. What do you think Aharon should have done?
You are Aharon Friedman, your wife just took your daughter out of town to a locality you cannot move to due to your line of work. You suspect that she's planning on stalling proceedings in order to have an advantage when the case eventually goes to secular court. What's your next move?
this one won't go up that's for sure.
ReplyDeleteby you allowing an attack on rav abraham by tauber which contained not a single piece of halochoh you are guilty of trashing so you are a hypocrite. you allow your brother to justifiably trash reshoim but not me. why? blood thicker than water?
you also allowed three outright lies by tzadok to go unpunished
1) his mo'us olai claims that one has to pay mezonos immediately when he had to back down and his sources said aftewr 12 months.
2) his nonsense about someone who does not show up to a din torah being allowed to use bais din on other matters. the website he referred me to said exactly the opposite
3) his claims that one can only be arrested for breaking an order of protection if a police officer is there.
expalin how you allow this man to outright post lies?
1) his mo'us olai claims that one has to pay mezonos immediately when he had to back down and his sources said aftewr 12 months.
DeleteLet's try this again. The Ben Ish Hai, Rav Ovadia and the Tzitz Eliezer say immediately. The Yaskil Avdei writes four different Teshuvot(one of which was cosigned by Rav Eliashiv) saying it is only after 12mos.
2) his nonsense about someone who does not show up to a din torah being allowed to use bais din on other matters. the website he referred me to said exactly the opposite
No. I said someone who went to arkaot doesn't lose their rights to a B"D on other cases as the Sh"A and Rema are posek in CM 26:1.
3) his claims that one can only be arrested for breaking an order of protection if a police officer is there.
Not what I said. I said a person cannot simply call the police and have the person arrested. They either have to present evidence to a judge of the breaking of the protection order, and thus have a bench warrant issued or the police have to witness the violation.
Theyneed not present any evidence to the judge. They can simply submit such a claim' without evidence, to the judge. And the judge xan, and very often does, accept such a claim on her word alone and issues an arrest warrant based on it.
Deletemichael tzadok i posted on the friedman issue. dasas torah censored it so you are wrong. read my posting before commenting. ask daas torah to put it up. he let's you lie all the time.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you just say, "I condemn his use of Arkaot."? Full Stop. I am sure that Rav Eidensohn would allow that comment through.
DeleteThe Shomer Emunim Rebbe - who is a major kanoi - told me that you can only be a kanoi if you don't enjoy doing it.
ReplyDeleteA chassid of his told me he was furios at Sharon over the disengagemant, saying "disband the Medinah, but why are you kicking Jews out of their homes?" We should be zoche to have more such kannaoim!
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ReplyDelete