I hadn't seen him in a long time, but after davening he came over and asked how I am doing. He listened patiently as I explained my distress over the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter. I told him that the heter was clearly obtained through the use of a false psychiatric report and was not valid.
He asked me what my involvement was in this matter and I explained that I had made a major contribution to publicizing the matter which had led to the involvement of many rabbinic authorities.
I noted that it was commonly agreed that it was not just a problem with the immediate case but it was the fact that this was setting a precedent for other cases. He interjected that there was such a thing as a valid heter because of kiddushei ta'os. I agreed but noted that when the Rackman and the Krause beis dins had tried to create leniencies - there was an uproar against the beis din itself. I noted that in this case those who had created the heter are not being criticized. It is just being said that the heter is no good this time.
I noted that things had come to a stand still in dealing with the wider concerns, after Rav Dovid Feinstein had issued his psak that the heter was no good and that Rav Shmuel had simply said that he would abide by his psak. Rav Kaminetsky had not expressed any regret. There was no statement that the process of producing the heter was wrong. There was no redressing of the harm that had been done against Aharon Friedman. Of greater importance - nothing was being done to protect the community against this being used as a precedent for other cases.
When I noted that Rav Greenblatt had not retracted and the couple was still living together - he expressed suprise. I explained that Rav Greenblatt had stated that once he gave the psak it is valid independent of the quality of the facts that the psak was based on.
I noted that at the present time as a result of the psak of Rav Dovid, the validity of the heter has simply become a machlokess in halacha between Rav Greenblatt and Rav Dovid Feinstein. As long as Rav Dovid does not criticize Rav Nota for producing the psak there will be no progress and the matter will not be properly dealt with.
Before the Rav turned to take care of some pressing business he said the following, "You should be aware that Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Nota Greenblatt are good friends."
Is it verified as fact that as of today Tamar and her friend are still living together? Or is that merely an assumption in the absence of other evidence?
ReplyDeleteStating that it's worthless does not take no four weeks. What else went on there, why is there no psak on the Adam's Get the Mishnah demands and the rest of the directives. If not R' Dovid, then let BBD continue where they left off, why is it frozen in it's tracks? Why is it boshesh lovo. If heads need to roll, so be it.
ReplyDelete"I explained that Rav Greenblatt had stated that once he gave the psak it
ReplyDeleteis valid independent of the quality of the facts that the psak was
based on. "
I don't understand this. In regard to a psak by a Bais Din I can somewhat understand it. But a psak from an individual remains if the facts were proven false? Is there any source for such a statement?
Years ago people used to by chickens live at a market and have them shechted there. Suppose a maid was sent to buy a chicken there but didn't want to wait for the shochet and just chopped off its head without telling anyone. The cook finds something on the intestine and brings it to a rav to ask if it was kosher. The rav rules it's kosher so the cook prepares the chicken. Someone at the market saw the maid chop off the head and tells the rav after the chicken was cooked. Does the rav have an obligation to tell the family that bought the chicken he was mistaken that it is kosher?
Right: “There was no statement that the process of producing the heter was wrong. There was no redressing of the harm that had been done against Aharon Friedman. Of greater importance - nothing was being done to protect the community against this being used as a precedent for other cases.”
ReplyDeleteHear my solution! True it’s hard to get American rabbis to stand up to Kaminetsky-Greenblatt and feminist supporters annihilation of the holiness in marriage. It may be easier to effect changes in NYS (and other states) civil marriage laws that would prevent the annihilation of the holiness in marriage. The focus has to be on preventing getless divorces. We need a NYS law barring a civil divorce where the husband objects to the civil divorce and claims that he’s seeking reconciliation, שלום בית. The evil that ORA does is because they push the angry wife to get a civil divorce over the husband’s objections---fast. Then ORA gets rabbis and feminist supporters to argue that the marriage is over/dead---who needs the get? They argue that a husband who doesn’t give the get is a רשע who deserves Mendel Epstein et al knocking loose his teeth . They dismiss (Deuteronomy 24:1)
“A man takes a wife and possesses her. She fails to please him because he finds something obnoxious about her, and he writes her a bill of divorcement, hands it to her, and sends her away from his house;”
NYS laws on no default divorce enable divorces without “he writes her a bill of divorcement.” Bad.
RNG never said such a thing, although he has been (mis)quoted umpteen times as having said so. What he actually said was that his Psak was valid ASSUMING that the facts given to him were true - if they are not true then of course the Halacha would change. In other words, the Psak remains true, but would be inapplicable in this case. In logic terms - it would be valid, but not sound:
ReplyDelete"An argument form is valid if and only if whenever the premises are all true, then conclusion is true. An argument is valid if its argument form is valid. For a sound argument, An argument is sound if and only if it is valid and all its premises are true."
Yôu are wrong
ReplyDeleteBut didn't this blog quote RNG that if proven that the facts are incorrect that he will retract? Especially if the gadol(im) he relied upon back out?
ReplyDeleteWasn't there a post that he would retract if the facts are proven wrong? And we were also saying that he was waiting for them to do so?
ReplyDeletehe did say that and he did say that even if 6 psychologists said the evidence was no good he would not retract. He also told Rav Schecter that he would not have given the heter if he had known the Baltimore Beis Din's involvement and if he had know that the psychiatrist had not spoken to Aharon Friedman and yet he told my brother he could recall say such - even though everyone says he has a razor sharp mind and a fantastic memory.
ReplyDeleteSo he basically contradicted himself? Then the fight must be put against him, unless they can direct him to stop....
ReplyDeleteIf you are certain that RNG is not backing down, why are you putting the onus on the Kamenetzkys and not on him? After all, he and only he is the matir. It is a terrible corruption of halacha on his part.
ReplyDeleteBecause the project was initiated by the Kaminetskys, the psak was for the benefit of the Kaminetskys and the harm continues as long as the Kaminetskys don't explicitly reject the heter and the process of obtaining it. RNG served as a technician.
ReplyDeleteexcellent point!
ReplyDelete“He also is known to keep his cards close to his vest and that he reveals only a fraction of what is actually on his mind. Equally as important he has been involved in this issue.”
ReplyDeleteThis is the old CYA, cover your ass. Many are guilty in this getless divorce and the annihilation of holiness in marriage case. These many are scurrying in CYA. Surely devout Jews in American want the matter clarified as much as we in Israel. Of course, those scurrying in CYA, will not help to clarify the matter---the opposite, they’ll tell you to shut up. There’s the problem of many that supported Mendel Epstein et al and are scurrying in CYA on fall out as Mendel Epstein et al is still in the USA courts. All signs are that the public will know fully all details.
Why are you surprised about this? RNG was a talmid of Rav Moshe so it is natural that they should know each other and be friends.
ReplyDeleteRNG was a talmid of Rav Moshe
ReplyDeleteFrom when and until when?
who was surprised?!
ReplyDeleteI assumed that you posted this because it was particularly newsworthy.
ReplyDeleteYes
ReplyDeleteJust to play devil's advocate, there is a concept of 'keyvan shehigid shuv aeino chozer umagid' and we KILL someone even if the witnesses retract.
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong
ReplyDelete(I guess if you expect me to understand the worlds of information that lie behind your comment, then so can I!)
Sir, you speak so well! “I agreed but noted that when the Rackman and the Krause beis dins had tried to create leniencies - there was an uproar against the beis din itself. I noted that in this case those who had created the heter are not being criticized. It is just being said that the heter is no good this time.”
ReplyDeleteTrue the uproar against the Wreckman (thanks Ehud, heh heh) beis din stopped them cold from their annihilation of holiness in marriage. Yes we do need a similar uproar against Greenblatt-Kaminestkys getless divorce and annihilation of holiness in marriage. I admire Daas Torah’s persistence, patience, style--scholarly and gentlemanly. I agree with the comments that he achieved good results so far. I’m sure he’ll get bigger and better results.
I’m thinking of case with Susan. Still no decision on NYS Court of Appeals 2016-125 date 2/16/2016. My hope is that at least one judge of the NYS Court of Appeals is willing to hear my case and is trying to persuade the other judges who may be reluctant to prosecute NYS judges. I also achieved good results so far in my case with Susan and I expect bigger and better results. I have no anger against Susan, the courts, NYS, etc. I’m a כהן and I wish well to everyone. We can holler and complain that the Greenblatt-Kaminestkys getless divorce and annihilation of holiness in marriage is terrible, without hating and without anger, yes?
Chelm and Sedom are neighboring cities and governed by the same authorities. Sometimes the People of Sedom use Chelmites to do their work and sometimes Chelmites can't get sanctions for their silly activities except in Sedom so they have an arrangement that works well.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but if he is upholding it independent of them, then we must turn action in his direction...
ReplyDeleteput also on Shaulzon http://bshch.blogspot.com/2016/04/blog-post_90.html
ReplyDeleteIf RSK would state very publicly and unequivocally that TE must separate immediately from her adultery with her boyfriend and that the heter is void and TE is still married to AF, I strongly suspect RNG would agree.
ReplyDeleteOmain, Ken yehi ratzon!
ReplyDeleteI don't know for sure whether they have or have not separated. As no one has reported a separation - I'm presuming the status quo is maintained.
ReplyDeleteWe can holler and complain against the get less divorce without hating and without anger? Does it not say, " Halo mesanechoh HaShem esnoh uviskomemechoh eskotot tachlis sinoh senaisim l'oyvim hoyu lee? (Although Maychin Pesayim may not like it. What do you
ReplyDeleteI think everyone sitting so comfortably behind their key boards has forgotten the most basic principle of yiddishkeit.
ReplyDeleteVi ahavta lireiecha kamocha....
Stop making yourselves so holy and righteous. Stop judging everyone like you are God yourself.
Every single person who has been the subject of critisim online or on this blog is first and foremost a human being.
Tamar acted as a woman who was hurt and paniced. Was she correct in all her choices? Probably not, but who can judge a confused, and hurt woman with the hornmones of a new mother? Not one of us can!!
Every Rav is also first and foremost a human, and a man. Every man had an 'ego' and no one wants to really be wrong.
It's easy for us to sit and critisizes a Rav, but not one of us have the nisyonos of leader and a Rav...
It seems so black and white to the outsider, but to the people involved there is soooo much gray.
May none of you ever ever know from any of these gray lines.
So ease up on your critisim.... Remember to have compassion on others....
ואהבתה לרעך כמוך
That is what others here have chosen to assume. One, however,might argue that since R Sholom has written that Rav Dovid's p'sak will be upheld, I presume that that also means to be 'carried out' until someone disproves me, after all, they have gotten plenty of flack for their doings, one may imagine that they are trying to avoid any more, so thus in probability they would not be living together. ..again, as I humbly mentioned, worth investigating...
ReplyDeleteV'ohavtoh l'raiachoh komochoh should foremost be applied to Aharon Friedman, who does not have enough folks speaking up for him. ....even prior to that would that mitzvah apply to the whole of Klal Yisroel. ..very important to preserve kedushas Yisroel and the future yichus and purity of Klal Yisroel. This blog was for a long time and continues for the most part to be the loner who sees those mais mitzvos are done....
ReplyDeleteSo ease up on your critisim.... Remember to have compassion on others....
ReplyDeleteואהבת לרעך כמוך
I agree with you. Does that mean that we have to accept the attempted destruction and continuous persecution of AF?
Does that mean that we have to accept the destruction of the Halachic way of dealing with matrimonial disputes?
Does that mean that we have to accept and permit certain people to act like bullies?
I feel more should be done to explain how these people came to make such a huge blunder. On the other, it is high time that we put a stop to all this nonsense! We don't have to judge the people involved - but we sure have to judge their actions. We also have to decide that while it is not our job to judge them, we cannot anymore accept their decisions on their say-so, since we have seen that there are clearly times when they are not representative of the Dvar Hashem.
Can you elaborate?
ReplyDeleteR Sholom has written that Rav Dovid's p'sak will be upheld, I presume that that also means to be 'carried out' until someone disproves me
ReplyDeleteYou have to put things based upon the chazakah. The chazakah is that they are shacking up. Jr. does not have enough of a chezkas kashrus to overturn the chazakah.
"As long as Rav Dovid does not criticize Rav Nota for producing the psak
ReplyDeletethere will be no progress and the matter will not be properly dealt
with."
I'm not sure that criticism of Rav Nota Greenblatt by Rav Dovid Feinstein is warranted. Criticism of Shalom Kaminetzsky for taking advantage of Rabbi Greenblatt's trust and naiveté is. It is Shalom Kaminetzsky who should be ostracized until he goes back to Rav Nota and admits he tricked him into performing an adulterous marriage ceremony. Because until then Rabbi Greenblatt's pride is apparently preventing him from retracting. As an example look at what happened with Rabbi Willig and the Baruch Lanner case. It wasn't until after Lanner was convicted that Rabbi Mordechai Willig apologized. http://forward.com/news/9345/top-rabbi-admits-errors-in-handling-lanner-case/
Hurt and panicked? She was quite methodical in first attempting to get the Washington Vaad to take her case and when they saw through her attempt to circumvent the Baltimore Bais Din she used another tactic. No. This was not someone who was hurt and panicked. We may not be able to judge her motivations but her actions are no different than of someone who goes to a Conservative synagogue because she doesn't like the idea of separate seating in shul..
ReplyDeleteI agree. What I'm saying is that I think the points of the errors made be written with more compassion and sympathy....
ReplyDeleteAF has kept quiet because he is careful with his speech. He has something many comments, and authors lack: Refined Speech.
One can bring out the truth without mockery, vulgarities, synism, negative judgement, condescending words and tones.
And if one can't get his point across in a refined respectful way, maybe they should not say anything.
Yes, but to deceive would be the last thing that he would want to do at this point......best at this point is that we or somebody chip in for a private investigator. ....
ReplyDeleteGiving tochacha definitely needs diplomacy - "V'ohavtoh l'raiachoh komochoh", then - "v'lo sisoh olov chait".
ReplyDeleteMacho'oh, on the other hand, works differently. That applies to something like Chilul HaShem, where it is not done for the sake of the individual, but for the sake of Kovod Shomayim, where dealing 'coolly', or even appearing as such only intensifies the Chilul HaShem as it demonstrates lack of empathy for HaShem's Kovod or kovod HaTorah or kovod of Klal Yisroel (same category here..) or from a different angle, putting diplomacy or concern for some individual's sentiments before HaShem's Kovod, would backfire our intended cause. ...
Usually I agree with you, but in this case you are jumping the gun a bit too fast.
ReplyDeleteWhen is the last time you were a confused new mother and not knowing where to turn.
You think k she didn't struggle with her conscious at least in the beginning? Of course that doesn't justify the out come of her actions, but try just for a split second to do the impossible and out yourself in her shoes?
Her struggle was real.
Once she left she most likely stopped thinking for herself and let her well meanin family make most of the choices....
It's easy to see it black and white from yours and my stand point because we lack the emotions that drove all her actions.
But at the very least I will admit that I can judge her character because I did not deal with the emotional turmoil she experienced.
May we never know from it!!
You seem biased.
ReplyDeleteBut I believe if someone coaxes 'Reuvain' to steal or kill or whatever, it is still 'Reuvain' who had to bear the responsibility for his actions....
Is that how halacha works, or am I misunderstanding something?
Why do u all care so much???
ReplyDeleteIs this the way lay men spoke of Michal and Palti Ilayish?
You have no idea what goes on in their private lives, nor is it any of your business!
You gave accomplished what you want. No one in the frum world will atempt to use heter get out of a get.
No one will again in their right mind USSR such a heter.
Now ALL the major poskim have come out against it. Including Lakewood and Philly.
Maybe I'm biased, bit I think most frum Jews will quicker take the side of the rabbanim in NY, NJ, and PA before accepting a very very controversial heter from TN....
Valid points....
ReplyDeleteI sm starting to see a lot of posts here are very vindictive and mocking as opposed 'truth searching'..
And it's starting to hurt me.
I felt this blog used to be about 'kavod Hashem' but in more recent posts I am seeing less and less of it.
It seems to have taken on a more 'personal' "I'm right, you're wrong" tone as opposed to an "you are mistaken and let me explain to you why" kind of tone...
A person who soley is trying to bring out kavod shamayim should not have to put others down....
Hillel was matzliach with the 'regel achas' mockerer because was patient and understanding of human emotions.
Shamay dealt strictly with Kavod Shamayim.
In our generation we need to act more like Hillel.
Shamays method will only work in Mashiach's time.
In this generation it will just back fire.
Why do we all care so much!? Huh?!?
ReplyDeleteHere, I would contend with you that the heter is dead......until this letter from Rav Shlomo Miller seems that he holds like the blog master and others here.... ....don't fully understand why it's not dead, but he says not.....
For about 2 years, the '"heter" perpetrators' were approached civilly and diplomatically, but to no avail. ..
ReplyDeleteKnow what? Approachthe Silver Spring community nicely now to let Aharon daven in shul, if TE is still together with boyfriend (although I, personally, don't assert that, but according to the others here.....), approach them nicely now to separate. .....
Approach her nicely now to not contest his parenting time. ..there are guidelines what to do when diplomacy fails....
On a further note, as Chazal point out, having rachmanus on achzorim is a cruelty. ....
ReplyDeletemachzik yedei ovrei aveira also means something. silence is consent in such case.
ReplyDeleteshe never learnt this stuff and wouldn't know from Adam. It's all atsas achisofel
ReplyDeleteI have to wonder if you give AF the same broad, chessed-filled latitude of understanding and empathy.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, this is a man who has been hounded out of an entire community, had his boss harassed, cannot daven in a single shul, and on and on. And that doesn't even cover the impossible difficulties he has faced seeing his daughter from 100+ miles away.
So, while I generally would agree with your empathic approach, your silence on the suffering that has been inflicted just over the fence is troubling.
I have no idea what you are saying....
ReplyDeleteLol, you lost me again....
ReplyDeleteI am not justifying TE's actions.
ReplyDeleteI am not down playing AF's tzar...
All I'm beginning to question since I started to follow this blog, is the mocking condisending, self righteous tone many commentators have....
Everyone here sees it all so black and white, because in truth it IS black and white. There is a right and wrong.
But everyone seems to forget that for the Epsteins, Kamanetzkys etc there is also a lot of gray. Why? Because they are human beings with emotions, and a concionce... It's those emotions and concionce that cause inner conflict and create gray lines.
All I'm trying to convey is that people should have a little more compassion when passing judgements on the sins of others.
"Why do you all care so much" was specifically in regards to weather or not Tamar and Adam are still living together....
ReplyDeleteHow many people even knew of the heter till she got remarried??
ReplyDeleteWe were told the Lashon of 'get' when Tamar got "freed".... First I ever heard of this heter business was this past year when Tama married Adam.
At this point, there is no way for the Epsteins to get out of this ordeal with dignity....
And the fact that people here seem to be gleaming with joy at their discomfort, busha, or what some may even call karma bothers me and annoys me.
It's like people are getting personal Hana from seeing them be under so much fire.
Yes of course I do. I have stated previously that I have never judges him negatively, and do not have any negative judgements for him.
ReplyDeletePS. I have even told people who slandered "Tamar's ex" that they are not privee to many details and should not assume he is crazy and evil without researching a bit more. I have defended his "craziness" to those with whom I have discussed this topic with....
I have tremendous empathy towards AF and even if people around me don't care about my opinion, I know it at least shut up the discussion from morphing into a complete motzei shaim ra and LAshon Harah fest.
She was no longer a "new" mother by the time she tried to pull the wool over the eyes of the Washington Vaad. Fortunately Rabbi Klavan And Rabbi Winter, zt'l, had siyata d'shmaya to tell her to go back to the Baltimore Bais Din. That she didn't and chose instead to have someone find her a "heter" was HER decision. That she followed such advisers was also HER ultimate decision.
ReplyDeleteIn a different reply you point out how Tamar was a confused young mother and her actions were from bad advice. Here you say a naive, trusting old man who was tricked is responsible for his actions? Why the difference?
ReplyDeleteIf Shimon saw Levi leave a diamond on the table then tells Reuvain he, Shimon, left a diamond on the table and asks Reuvain to please pick it up for him so Reuvain does, who would you consider responsible for stealing Levi's diamond?
The Kaminetzskys are the scions of Reb Yaakov Kaminetzsky, zt'l. They KNOW better! My father was Reb Yaakov's gabbai and he cannot believe the betrayal of Reb Yaakov's legacy! Compassion? What compassion is there for a grandson who spits on his grandfather's Torah? You bet I'm judgemental!
ReplyDeleteI would like to think that it is not vindication on the commentors part. Rav Shlomo Miller, shlit"a, gave out his last letter believing that not enough was done...
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting. After Willig admitted to his bad judgement and berating witnesses he still remains on the Bais Din. A child molester was allowed to continue for more than a decade and abuse countless more children when Willigs court could have stopped it? He was blind and deaf to the victims pleas. And he is still a Dayan on that court? "Gedolim" can do no wrong, even his apology was looked at as an act of greatness. Rabbis K. Can learn from that, apologize and move on to do whatever you want, you are untouchable to your flock. Even when you say you did wrong, you are doing right! YOU CAN DO NO WRONG AS A GADOL that is the lesson we learn here.
ReplyDeleteRe: Kiwi Strawberry Asher Kaufman • 19 hours ago
ReplyDelete"You think she didn't struggle with her conscious at least in the beginning?"
RSK jr approached RNG on behalf of TE for a HETER of mekach taus claiming it is her (TE) idea of doing such since AF is in insane. I am putting it to you that this was totally RSK's idea, since TE has no knowledge of such a mishna, especially when RNG had to add that she started packing for three months right after that in order to keep in line with sovro vekibla. Where would TE have learnt this Mishna? Huh?
Ayin tosfos: ein shliach lidvar aveira
ReplyDelete"You think she didn't struggle with her conscious at least in the beginning?"
ReplyDeleteWas more aimed at when she first decided to pick herself and leave... Once she left I do not doubt she was driven by anger, hurt, frustration, bad advise, and slander which fueled her fire...
But as per aproaching RSK for a heter, (I don't know the legitimacy of this story, but assuming what you are saying is true) it shows her ignorance in the matter even more! It shows even more how she was played. I'm saying this with feelings of sorow and pity towards her and not a drop of a animosity and contempt towards her.
Her Rav should have very nicely told her, that the possibility of anuling her marriage didn't work for her situation. He should have looked into whether his "talmida" was "eligible" for such a proposition.
Every bais Yaakov girl knows the concept of anulling a marriage exists if one unknownly marriaged a crazy person.
But most people do not know the details of such halachos.
Tamar was separated and carrying several years worth of frustration, self pity, and animosity towards AF. Of course her perception of his reality was obscured by human emotions. She probably does believe he is crazy and out to get her. She probably relived all their Shalom bayit issues over those years and has him depicked as a huge ugly monster in her head.... It's basic human psychology.
So for her to try the venue of anulling the marriage she had emotionally left years before left physically was not at all surprising.
It is the fact that her Rav didn't stop the idea in its tracts that's the most disturbing.....
KS, much appreciated!
ReplyDeleteI don't know tosfos, but I know the concept of ain sheluach lidvat aveira....
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I think Rav Greenblat is equally to blame for this whole mess. If not even more so than the Ks....
I Googled achitofel and refreshed my memory of Navi... Now your comment makes sense to me...
ReplyDeleteAnd look, due to the modern miracle of Internet we even know what Achitofel looked like... Cause you and I know that everything on the internet must be true https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1111391b9c1ac20307fa3ae2381ae41527d812b6419bf7a5d97bd63c6de32553.png
Hard to bring this up, but Are we to rejoice at the downfall of resha'im? Can anyone bring me any proof from Tanach, Chazal, etc?
ReplyDeleteOffhand, I would, though, bring a possuk in Tehillim that was recently mentioned, "Halo mesanechoh HaShem esnoh uviskomemechoh eskotot tachlis sinoh senaisim l'oyvim hoyu lee". We see from here that we have a personal sinah baalei avairoh as if they did something personal to us individually...
The Kaminetzskys sought out R. Greenblatt and used him as a tool the same way R. Peretz Steinberg sought out R. Shmuel Kaminetzsky and used him for Young Israel's wickedness against a widow. When RSK was confronted he did not rectify what he did. Justice can be poetic.
ReplyDelete“He asked me what my involvement was in this matter and I explained that I had made a major contribution to publicizing the matter which had led to the involvement of many rabbinic authorities.” He asks a question which he knows the answer to. He’s not on your side.
ReplyDeleteI bless you and support you for your major contribution to publicizing the matter. I thank Politically Incorrect for citing Psalms 139:20 several times. I did a whole op-ed Judaism for Arutz Sheva on this, see http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18663#.VwLFIfl97IU
Sorry to say, today, the NYS Court of Appeals dismissed my motion 2016-125.
Karma? (Is the concept of karma assure to believe in since it's rooted in avoda Zara, or is it just the ovdei kochavim version of mida kineged mida?)
ReplyDeleteBut be that as it may, based of the little that I know I believe the main achrayis still falls on the do-er. In this case Rav Greenblat. Sure it's a shame he was dupped with false info, but as Ehud brought out, ain sheliach liyad avera.
A Rav issuing a heter of such caliber should probably have still checked the facts himself....
It's a lesson that will hopefully go down in history...
This is an argument among the Rishonim in the seventh perek of Bava Kama.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it sure is avizorayhu deGiluy arayos if not for lifnei iver. Possibly both. RNG either knew or should have known by being more due dilligent. Once knowing he was duped, he sure must notify. By now, RNG for sure must know his Psak was worthless, why does he remain silent?
ReplyDeleteIt is clearly written in the letter RSKjr adressed to RNG that TE asked her to appeal this matter in a mekach taus. Even if she knows that a crazy husband can be let go, for sure she wouldn't know about HAFAKAOT KIDUSHIN by Mekach Taus with all the bells and whistles as RSKjr quoted TE, especially after allegedly discovering it after so many years of living together, who would believe her. More so, about such details as leaving immediately and claiming that she was packing for three months, *rofl*. In her diary she was innocently doing a two column checks and balances in good faith to sort out which side outweighs and from there make an intelligent honest decision, and I praise her for that. However, in this most crucial turning point in sorting out her future which way to turn at this fork, she fails to throw this crazy business into the mix, it should be on the TOP of her list! And chochmas Sholomo paskens, that she made an about face and grossly lying abou these accusations after the facts. Filling in the GAP, it was atsas RSK that coached and coaxed her saying so, and from there on RSKjr leapfrogged it to RNG in cahoots with TE as if her own idea. From that point on, it is Sheker veshav, nothing but Sheker and Kol kulo Sheker, so help us all.
ReplyDeleteIn addition where did she ever mention this mental craziness in BBD? And even if true why at the time did she pursue a Get from a deranged husband? In any case, no point in beating a dead horse on arrival.
Yep. Question, we are wondering that too....
ReplyDeleteHonestly I am completely ignorant in what does or does not qualify for a mekach taus. Some people will never ever live with a snore-er, while my friend got engaged while diagnosed with the yena machla-of course be knew about it!- (BH she's fine now over a decade and several kids later)...
ReplyDeleteBut there is one thing, even little ignorant me knows: you can't say your spouse has issues that make the marriage pasul if you claim to have realized "you made the biggest mistake of your life" a week after marriage but continue to live with them willing for a couple more years....
The logic in that just seems so flawed.
Which sane person takes 3 months to pack??
ReplyDeleteWhich daf?
ReplyDeleteAt this point it doesn't matter who is to blame. There is enough to go around between TE, RNG, RSKsr and RSKjr. What is important is to fix the mess NOW!
ReplyDelete1) RSKjr needs to admit and apologize to RNG he misled him.
2) RNG must render a corrected psak based on the true facts
3) TE must do as RNG says after he corrects his psak.
4) TE must return to the Baltimore Bais Din and accept whatever verdict they deliver. It is very possible she may be liable for damages she caused Aharon Friedman from this fiasco.
See the Mishnah at the bottom of Sanhedrin 37:1, until it quotes a passuk in Mishlei at its end.
ReplyDeleteLooking the other way when we are witness to wrongdoing is not a Jewish value.
See Rema Ch. M. end of siman 348 in the name of Mordechai
ReplyDeleteThe Ha'amek Davar "פרשת שמיני על הפסוק "וישמע משה וייטב בעיניו
ReplyDeletebrings the מדרש רבה that relates that after realizing that he erred, Moshe Rabbenu let out a declaration to be publicized in the entire machane, to the effect that he erred.
Explains the Haamek Davar, Moshe was teaching a lesson for all generation that even the gadol hador should not refrain from admitting to the public that he made a mistake.
I believe this is an indication of how great a nisayon it is for someone of stature to do so.
How could you manage to learn the opposite lesson? Moshe Rabbainu is teaching to admit and you learn from there that we should excuse someone who doesn't admit. Amazing!
ReplyDeleteIt is truly a big thing to admit and it isn't easy but it is absolutely required and excuses of how difficult it is don't change that. If someone doesn't admit, he can't be a leader because he is leading the people astray.
79a. According to Rashi and Tosafos the case of the Mishna is exactly this case, but the Ran and others argue.
ReplyDeleteIt is an indication of both how difficult a nisayon it is, and that it is required.
ReplyDeleteCorrect. But what I'm saying is that the difficulty is totally irrelevant to us except in the fact that we should be less judgmental to the perpetrators on a personal level as we should to murderers or sinners of any sort, but these people are disqualified from being gedolim or leaders, and we can not trust these people or rely on them from now on because they have shown that they are not reliable in halacha and not trustworthy and not believable because they don't admit to the truth when presented with the nisoyon.
ReplyDelete